Do You Keep a Steel Pointed Pen in Your Shirt Pocket?


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the iron horse
December 31, 2007, 10:36 PM
You never know when you might be called to right a wrong.

It might help.

What do you think.

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sm
December 31, 2007, 10:52 PM
No.

NPE's (No personal weapon environments) are /sometimes part of my ADLs ( activities of daily living).

Metal Detectors, Subject to being searched, Dawgs, and some Real Sharp Security folks.

No. 2 pencil or disposable Bic pens are what I use.

How raised - what you do.

CWL
December 31, 2007, 11:26 PM
Yes I do as I travel internationally often and need something to fill-out all those sudokus with to kill the time...

Clipped to pants pocket, not shirt.

I have a Hinderer pen, sometimes a Rotring (but the ink cartridges don't last long and are hard to find). I also have a Jones Brothers titanium stylus, but that's usually in my bag.

BridgeWalker
December 31, 2007, 11:32 PM
I don't, yet, regularly, since I don't regularly have shirt pockets just now, but I have.

Best imho is the Lamy Safari. I do usually have a fountain pen on me with a steel nib and a fine point on it, but I don't think my Pelikan is as sturdy or as sharp as the Lamy.

carpettbaggerr
December 31, 2007, 11:34 PM
If it's clipped to your breast pocket, an opponent can pull it out more easily than you can.

And when they grab it, it's properly positioned for icepick style stabs to your face and neck. :uhoh:

Keep it under your shirt flap or in your pants pocket. :D

1 old 0311
January 1, 2008, 12:14 AM
Get a Cross pen. Built like a tank, and lifetime guarantee. You can stab it through dry wall.

hso
January 1, 2008, 11:27 AM
I always carry a sturdy ball point clipped to the placket of my shirt.

Roswell 1847
January 1, 2008, 12:08 PM
I seldom carry a pen unless its clipped to my check book. I did find a very old pen recently, probably as old as I am and made of what looks to be thick stainless steel and with a nicely crosshatched surface for a good grip. I've been meaning to find some properly sized fillers for it.

When I think on it I've seen metal scribing pens used for marking cuts on tough steels. These have an extremely sharp point and the barrels are of a tough aluminum alloy. One of those could probably penetrate a skull.

A Special Forces veteran I knew years ago was party to just such a discussion about defending yourself from a Mugger.
He said that he would tell them "I don't have any cash but I'll Write you a check" then he whipped out his pen in a natural motion and flicked open a hidden blade similar to a melon tester blade about 4.5 to 5 inches long.

He let me examine the pen/knife which he'd picked up in Nam. It was of solid stainless steel and split down the middle for the blade. The two sides served as spring tension latches for the blade which locked open when flicked as a gravity knife. To close it you had to pry back the sides of the barrel.
Very slim and a very deadly little knife . Thick enough to stab deeply without breaking and hollow ground to a razor edge.

Noxx
January 1, 2008, 02:25 PM
I carry a Cross pen. It's hardly a primary weapon of choice, but it would surely dissuade someone if you put it in their eye.

hso
January 1, 2008, 05:13 PM
Hidden knife blades in pens are problematic from both a practical and legal standpoint. The optimization of a pen as an improvised weapon may not be best served by hiding blades in them.

rodregier
January 1, 2008, 05:31 PM
Roswell 1847 wrote:

"It was of solid stainless steel and split down the middle for the blade. The two sides served as spring tension latches for the blade which locked open when flicked as a gravity knife. To close it you had to pry back the sides of the barrel.
Very slim and a very deadly little knife . Thick enough to stab deeply without breaking and hollow ground to a razor edge."

B&D Grande made a version, don't know where you would get one today.

Noxx
January 1, 2008, 06:53 PM
Hidden knife blades in pens are problematic from both a practical and legal standpoint. The optimization of a pen as an improvised weapon may not be best served by hiding blades in them.

I agree wholeheartedly. There is no reason to entangle yourself in a potential legal problem with a "pen-weapon". In practical use, any well made pen makes a fine penetrating weapon. In fact, many improvised weapons (I'm sure I've told "the ladder story" on this board) handily trump spec-made hidden weapons like pen knives and belt buckle knives.

You're better off training to be alert and take advantage of what's around you than carrying a "purpose built" weapon that is not ideally suited to it's task, and may cost you legal trouble.

CZ.22
January 1, 2008, 07:59 PM
There is a Fisher Bullet in my Levenger Pocket Briefcase, right front pocket. But it would take a long time to reach.
However, I am a high school student and usually have some form of pen/pencil with me- N0. 2, mechanincal, Bic, Sharpie.
I usually carry a Buck Mayo Hilo. But since I can't do that at school, I definately view the pen as an effective last ditch weapin

Browning
January 1, 2008, 11:25 PM
Well yeah, but not as any kind of weapon, it's because I have to write so many damn reports.

btucker1947
January 2, 2008, 01:43 AM
Tactical pens , right?:D
Good thought but not realistic. The hard core criminals that are on the street aren't even afraid of a gun.
They are on dope or crazy at the same time. You pull a knife or pen they will pull a bigger knife or pen. you pull a gun, chances are they have one too. Whatever you do, you have to react fast.

fjolnirsson
January 2, 2008, 01:52 AM
Good thought but not realistic. The hard core criminals that are on the street aren't even afraid of a gun.

You seem to misunderstand the point. The point is not to cause fear, the point is perforation of the bad guy, in a situation where a gun or knife is not available.
I guarantee a pen placed into someones eyeball will slow their attack. Depending on what they are on, it might not stop them, but it's better than begging for mercy.

hso
January 2, 2008, 09:24 AM
btucker1947,

It's another tool to be used by someone with the will to use it. When you're stripped of everything else, they don't strip you of pens (except working in certain areas where violently detained individuals are kept). When you're jumped without warning and wrestling with the pig on the ground, it's there to give you an advantage in the fight. When you sign your name on the dotted line ...

BigBlock
January 2, 2008, 07:19 PM
Nope. If I feel the need to stab somebody I'll use my knife. ;)

1 old 0311
January 2, 2008, 07:52 PM
HJi Bigblock,


A knife isn't 'socially acceptable' in all places.

357wheelgunner
January 2, 2008, 07:56 PM
Wow, doesn't anyone know how to fight anymore?

A good fighter will take a knife or a pen out of your hands, or break the arm holding it, or find some other way to put you down even if you have a deadly pen or sharpened carrot or an apple corer that you are highly trained with.

Even if you stab someone with it, unless you get a sensitive hard to hit area with your little pen, the badguy won't die for a few long minutes. The way to win a fight is by breaking bones and taking out structure, not poking with a pen.

People need to practice martial arts and not worry as much about gadgets, concentrating on their underperforming overweight undertrained bodies instead. Most gun shop wierdos who sit around talking about muzzle velocity and stopping power have humungous beer guts. Make your body "tactical" before you clip more crap to your pockets (and no, I don't mean paint yourself black and tatoo "Death Dealer 2000" across your arms).

Just my opinion: lol @ pen weapons

CZ.22
January 2, 2008, 11:15 PM
357- ever been choked while sitting in a chair? Hard jab with a pen/pencil will certainy hurt most people's hands.
While breaking bones and pummeling people would most certainly work, stabbing is also an effective method, especially if you're pinned down.

fjolnirsson
January 2, 2008, 11:57 PM
Wow, doesn't anyone know how to fight anymore?

A good fighter will take a knife or a pen out of your hands, or break the arm holding it, or find some other way to put you down even if you have a deadly pen or sharpened carrot or an apple corer that you are highly trained with.

Even if you stab someone with it, unless you get a sensitive hard to hit area with your little pen, the badguy won't die for a few long minutes. The way to win a fight is by breaking bones and taking out structure, not poking with a pen.

People need to practice martial arts and not worry as much about gadgets, concentrating on their underperforming overweight undertrained bodies instead. Most gun shop wierdos who sit around talking about muzzle velocity and stopping power have humungous beer guts. Make your body "tactical" before you clip more crap to your pockets (and no, I don't mean paint yourself black and tatoo "Death Dealer 2000" across your arms).

Just my opinion: lol @ pen weapons


It isn't about relying on these things, it's about using anything you can to your advantage.
Yes, you are right, people need to learn martial arts. People need to be fit. But people also need to learn to use common objects to help defend themselves. I once beat a man down with a steel tampon disposal unit I tore off the wall. I was in a womens restroom, trying to break up a fight, and a large samoan man was ignoring efforts to choke, break, or otherwise damage him. I tore the stainless steel can off of the wall, and beat him unconscious with it. I know what you are saying about the pens. No, it won't make someone bleed out right away. But t could be that edge someone needs.
I practice Muay Thai, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, and Krav Maga. But that doesn't mean I won't use any advantage I can find. If I have to partially blind someone with a bic to ensure I go home to my family, I'll do it. In a real fight, there are no rules, and everything is a weapon.
Lol at pen weapons? Go right ahead. I guarantee a well paced pen will help swing a fight your way. Been there, done that. Criminals, hard core or otherwise, tend to look for easy targets. Someone inflicting bodily harm whether by breaking bones or by stabbing, s not an easy target.
I don't look for fights. If I thought I was gong to need my gun/knife/pen/martial arts, I would stay home.

A rolled up newspaper is very effective when applied edgewise to someone's throat, as well..

Pax Jordana
January 3, 2008, 12:42 AM
Well, ok then.

Re: knives in pens - if you're gonna go that route, might as well sharpen up a long nail and paint it black.. more damage for the same ensuing legal proceedings..

re: btucker - You pull a knife or pen they will pull a bigger knife or pen. ..THIS IS WHY WE NEED PEN CONTROL.

357, I agree you should not rely on the gimmick, but if you've a solid foundation, the gimmick can only help..

Plus, unless the person you're fighting is hopped up on drugs, I wouldn't think it likely that it'd be pulled out while in the fight, still usable, and used against you. Unlike a knife, pens and pencils (with the exception of sturdy metal ones) splinter rather easily.

Part of my job (hospital) is sitting with patients that are a danger to themselves or others. Attempted suicides, mentally disturbed or confused people, etc. Once, we got a guy from a local place (I don't believe they call them asylums anymore and the word currently escapes me) who'd been having a bad time of it, and to calm him down they'd had to give him a bunch (like close to too much) of risperdal - which is why he ended up in the hospital. Hours after his admission, he wakes up, and it turns out he's been holding a golf pencil in his hand the whole time - from bed to ambulance to hospital. He tried to stick it in my arm, but he was still groggy so he missed, or I dodged, or a combination of the two. Go figure, people walking in the front door get to go through metal detectors..

btucker1947
January 3, 2008, 07:22 AM
Hey , Pax I'd use a pen before a 38 :D

Joe Demko
January 3, 2008, 03:22 PM
Consider this (http://www.grand-illusions.com/acatalog/info_48.html)
Consider this (http://www.grand-illusions.com/acatalog/info_Metal_Pen_Keyring.html)
The hint of the century
Consider this (http://www.edirectory.co.uk/pf/880/mia/d/designer+carbon+fibre+fountain+pen/pid/5982599)
The slip that brought me
To my knees failed
What if all these fantasies
Come flailing around
Now I've said too much.

357wheelgunner
January 3, 2008, 07:42 PM
^^^

The quote in your sig is by Trent Reznor, not Johnny Cash. Cash sang the song, Reznor of Nine Inch Nails wrote it.



I agree with everyone that improvised weapons can be useful in some situations, but a sharpened pen is reaching. If you are in a weapon free area there are lots of more useful things than a pen to get you home safely. A tiny stab wound would take forever to incapacitate someone, unless you get a lucky shot to the eye or something like that.

Great story about the tampon dispensor beating!

W.E.G.
January 3, 2008, 08:01 PM
I suck at pen-fighting.

Except when I use it to write - then I'm pretty good.

Joe Demko
January 3, 2008, 08:08 PM
The quote in your sig is by Trent Reznor, not Johnny Cash. Cash sang the song, Reznor of Nine Inch Nails wrote it.

Actually, if you read the quote, it is original to me. Reznor didn't write it nor did Johnny Cash ever sing it.

the iron horse
January 3, 2008, 08:30 PM
"Good thought but not realistic. The hard core criminals that are on the street aren't even afraid of a gun."

~btucker1947


I disagree. I faked a would be mugger late one night by just reaching in my back pocket. *faking a gun....it was actually in the glove compartment of my car.

And if you have watched any of reality TV you will see that once the bad guys confront a gun they head south real quick.

I read a story today of an attempted robbery in a store and a man with a CWP pulled a gun on the bad guy and he went to the floor. He dropped his gun.

The bad guys are cowards.

My 2-cents

357wheelgunner
January 3, 2008, 08:56 PM
Actually, if you read the quote, it is original to me. Reznor didn't write it nor did Johnny Cash ever sing it.


It's sacriligous to misquote great musicians like Reznor and Cash...

Joe Demko
January 3, 2008, 09:24 PM
It's sacriligous (sic) to misquote great musicians like Reznor and Cash...

Good thing for me, then, that I'm an atheist.

alwilliam
January 3, 2008, 10:59 PM
A few shirt pocket pen type item items....


http://i12.tinypic.com/715h3bd.jpg

Joe Demko
January 3, 2008, 11:17 PM
You apparently have somewhat larger shirt pockets than I.

btucker1947
January 4, 2008, 10:44 AM
Consider this
Consider this
The hint of the century
Consider this
The slip that brought me
To my knees failed
What if all these fantasies
Come flailing around
Now I've said too much.
__________________
I like that Joe. Aint that the damn truth LOOL:scrutiny:
We need some different Icons , like some eating popcorn etc:)

Browning
January 5, 2008, 07:09 AM
I guess it's not as ridiculous as it sounds on the surface.

The people in the incidents below all used pencils or pens to stab someone with.

http://www.local10.com/news/9822412/detail.html

http://cbs5.com/local/2.452002.html

Using them as a weapon in an aggressive manner can lead to injuries like this...

http://www.prenhall.com/trauma/thumb/impale/075.jpg

...this,..
http://www.prenhall.com/trauma/impale.html

...this,..
http://www.prenhall.com/trauma/eye.html
(one at the bottom with the pencil).

..this...
http://www.sarpy.com/ema/moulage/t_pen.jpg

.....and this.
http://www.cprpgh.fanspace.com/images/pencil.jpg


This kid used one to avoid being abducted, pretty good thinking and quick action on his part if you ask me.
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=241717
13-Year-Old Attacks Alleged Abductor with Pencil
May 2nd, 2006 @ 11:54am
Gene Kennedy reporting

A man aggressively tries to abduct a 13-year-old boy while on his way to school. The teen was walking to Midvale Middle School when it happened.

John Salazar, Midvale Police Dept.: "I haven't seen something this aggressive in Midvale."

The teenager was walking on Oak Street, roughly 8000 south 480 west, a block from Midvale Middle School. He said around 8:15 this morning, a man in his 50's pulled up, said nothing, but got physical to try and abduct him.

John Salazar, Midvale Police Dept.: "Tried to get him in a headlock, a physical headlock. And the 13-year-old juvenile said he reached up, had a pencil in his right hand, and stabbed the suspect in the face. The suspect released his hold on him and 13-year-old ran away."

The teen made it to school. Police believe the suspect took off in a newer model blue Honda Accord.

I think that we all agree that it a pen or a pencil isn't an ideal weapon under almost any circumstances, but I guess it's better than nothing if that's all you have though or if it's real handy until you can lay your hands on something else.

If you or someone you know ever has a knife, pen or pencil impaled in your/their face.
http://firstaid.about.com/od/injuriesathome/ht/06_impaled.htm

If that does end up happening (getting impaled/stabbed) you're officially having a bad day.

CWL
January 5, 2008, 06:07 PM
It is only the naive and untrained who think that one actually needs to create punctures in order to effectively wield a pen-sized object.

In addition to being a handy fistload, they can be used for hammer blows to defeat and destroy "hard" points on an opponent and be thrust into "soft" nerve clusters located throughout entire body.

inkhead
January 7, 2008, 01:20 AM
We used to carry ceramic knives since they work well, and don't get caught on metal detectors. Much more effective than a pen.

Don't even think ABOUT bringing these on the plane, most of the ones were 12" blades.

Browning
January 7, 2008, 01:49 PM
CWL : It is only the naive and untrained who think that one actually needs to create punctures in order to effectively wield a pen-sized object.

In addition to being a handy fistload, they can be used for hammer blows to defeat and destroy "hard" points on an opponent and be thrust into "soft" nerve clusters located throughout entire body.

It's possible that "hammer blows" with a pen could cause some damage in a fight, but in my experience of almost a decade on an ambulance (the majority of which was in a pretty busy 911 district) the people who are stabbed are usually much worse off than if they were struck in the head with a light obejct.

If they get hit in the head with a heavy object (bat, pipe, tire iron, mag light, rock, brick, tree branch, car part laying around etc) then that's different as intra-cranial pressure starts to build and it can cause brain damage as a result of ischemia from the decreased flow of oxygen to the brain and it can cause death pretty easily if the blow has enough force behind it.

With a light weight object like a pen that's not very likely to happen though.

Usually the people I see that were hit with a light weight object just have some bumps and bruises and they stopped fighting because the police or someone else got them to stop, they weren't stopped as a result of being hit with something small.

hso
January 7, 2008, 01:57 PM
I used a #2 pencil to get a guy to turn me loose once. That was all that was needed and he backed off with it sticking out of the back of his hand.

Just a standard pen or pencil can give you a little advantage. A pen built like a kubaton can give you a little more to work with. They're just tools for the prepared individual to use.

alwilliam
January 7, 2008, 02:20 PM
My "pen plan" is just to use the tool to buy me maybe a 1/2 second to either run away or transition to a firearm.

I think of a pen in the same way the old school oss thumb daggers,wrist daggers,tiny pen guns or other gadget weapons were to be used.

The last ditch odd weapons were never intended or designed to be fight stopping /killing type weapons(they could be of course, but that was very rare) their main use was to buy the user a bit of time to escape or find a better weapon.


I like the lightfoot design,its a bit of overkill..but it is sturdy and has good diameter,has a tight focus point that feels so good on those boney zones,writes well.Good overall pen device.


http://aycu16.webshots.com/image/40495/2002147024067553544_fs.jpg

Joe Demko
January 7, 2008, 02:37 PM
Don't underestimate the value of a stab wound delivered with a field expedient weapon. The one and only time I ever stabbed anybody I wielded one of those pointy green plastic vials florists use in making wreaths and such.
I was a school kid at the time and had one in my pocket that I had kept from arts n' crafts class.
After school, I was jumped by a troubled yoot who had had some unpleasant interaction with my dad (a police officer) the night before. He proceeded to start whamming on me with what appeared to be a section of broom handle or dowel rod. He backed me against a wall and was set to really start going to town on me.
I pulled the vial from my jacket pocket and impaled him in the "love handle" with it. Left it stuck in him, in fact. He commenced to screeching and clawing at it. I took the opportunity to break contact and unass the AO.
I'm guessing he probably experienced about as much discomfort getting it out as he did when it went in. If you've ever seen one of those vials, at least as they used to make them, they have a point that looks like an old-fashioned arrow head. They're barbed, basically, so they don't fall out of the styrofoam after the floral arrangement is constructed.
A pen, pencil, or other improvised poignard would have served just as well.
Don't talk smack on stab wounds.

CWL
January 7, 2008, 05:19 PM
Browning,
Perhaps you didn't notice that I stated that I carry a Hinderer pen. I actually travel very often internationally with it in my pocket. Yes, I am trained in martial arts applications of kubatons, dowels, and fighting sticks. And while I agree that a heavy bat is much more effective than a pen-sized object, large bats are almost unavailable to me 24/7.

I broke a person's collarbone once with a downward strike, sure put him out of action.

Browning
January 7, 2008, 09:59 PM
CWL :
Browning,
Perhaps you didn't notice that I stated that I carry a Hinderer pen. I actually travel very often internationally with it in my pocket. Yes, I am trained in martial arts applications of kubatons, dowels, and fighting sticks. And while I agree that a heavy bat is much more effective than a pen-sized object, large bats are almost unavailable to me 24/7.

I broke a person's collarbone once with a downward strike, sure put him out of action.

The point of my post wasn't that the butt of a pointed/sharp weapon can't be effective in any situation EVER in any way, just that using a pointed/sharp weapon for what it's intended for (to stab and puncture with) is more likely to produce a fight ending injury in your opponent.

In the case you're talking about luckily the guy quit after a broken collarbone, what if the next guy doesn't stop at that and continues fighting?

CWL
January 8, 2008, 03:58 AM
In the case you're talking about luckily the guy quit after a broken collarbone, what if the next guy doesn't stop at that and continues fighting?

I'd break his other collarbone. You're EMS, how effective is one's arm if he/she no longer is has the structural support of a collarbone?

TimboKhan
January 8, 2008, 05:13 AM
I regularly carry a plain cheapo Parker brushed aluminum pen. Mainly, it's because I like the way they look and write, but partially because it would make an excellent stabber of last resort. Mainly though, it's the writing aspect that draws me to it, because I am going to have to be pretty darn desperate to engage in any sort of combat with my pen...

Interestingly, a Secret Service agent once showed me how to essentially kill someone with a pen. I was both interested and sort of freaked out at the demonstration.

alwilliam
January 8, 2008, 03:30 PM
I know a person that died from a broken collorbone when a few fragments cut the subclavian artery and he bled out.

Browning
January 10, 2008, 12:11 PM
CWL : I'd break his other collarbone. You're EMS, how effective is one's arm if he/she no longer is has the structural support of a collarbone?

It really depends on the person and how great their tolerance to pain is and if they have the will to fight no matter what happens to them and/or what kind of injuries they suffer. I've seen people quit after what are basically pin pricks and I've seen some people who sustained great deal of trauma (for instance a guy with a broken femur and who also had both of his arms broke from an MVA after a police chase, a guy who had portions of his intestines bulging out from multiple stab wounds to the abdomen, chest, face and back after a fight outside a country western bar and a guy with two .45 ACP Golden Sabre 185 grain HP's one in his left lung and one which cracked his pelvis into 5 different pieces from a drug deal gone bad) remain combative all the way to the hospital and who were sometimes walking/running around or fighting with the police when we arrived on scene.

Their ability to fight as well with a broken collarbone wouldn't be as great, just how much it would effect them depends on the person.

hso
January 10, 2008, 12:49 PM
So what I'm hearing is that each fight is different and each fighter is different. Some fights will be over with a show of force and demonstrated will to fight and others will only be over after amazing amounts of damage have been done.

Browning
January 10, 2008, 03:28 PM
hso : So what I'm hearing is that each fight is different and each fighter is different. Some fights will be over with a show of force and demonstrated will to fight and others will only be over after amazing amounts of damage have been done.

Yup, that's about the size of it, at least from what I've seen after fights, blunt force trauma with various kinds of clubs, stabbings and shootings anyway. I'm no expert on the subject, but it just seems to vary from person to person from what their previous experience with violent situations has been and how they've programmed themselves to react.

Look at Platt from the Miami Shootout, he was basically shot to pieces and had sustained a mortal wound and his blood was spurting out all over the place, his right arm wasn't really working (he had to fit his right index finger into the trigger guard of his Ruger Mini-14 carbine and instead of squeezing he just pulled his arm back a little at the shoulder rearward in order to fire each time) and he still went on to do the majority of his killing and wounding of FBI agents after he was already hit several times. Most people would have surrendered or quit by that point, but he didn't.

Just kind of goes to show you that it's not over until you decide to quit (surrender) or until you're shot in or if you sustain some sort of injury to the brain (killed or knocked unconcious), to the spine or until you bleed to death. If you are concious and know what's going on and can move one arm you can still fight, the question is if you want to or not.

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