LE agencies leaving GLOCK for M & P....


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boalex207
January 2, 2008, 02:29 AM
read reports of "numerous" LE agencies pulling their GLOCKs and instead issuing Smith & Wesson M&P pistols.

Anybody know who any of these departments are ?

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Jason_G
January 2, 2008, 02:41 AM
I know of one that is leaving the Sig P220 in .45 ACP for the M&P in 9mm. I would leave Glock before I left Sig, but that's just my opinion. YMMV.

Jason

biscuitninja
January 2, 2008, 02:41 AM
I've seen that alot over here in Southern CA. Is there any reason why? Could the Glocks be getting long in the tooth? (Not that there would be anything wrong with with at all...).
-bix

Constantine-p89
January 2, 2008, 02:43 AM
I think it would be a mistake to leave Glock or Sig.

dsk
January 2, 2008, 02:50 AM
Sorry, but specific designs are not normally chosen because anybody at the agency thinks they are the Ultimate Combat Handgun. There is usually a selection process where certain desired features are spec'd out, vendors provide guns to test, then the lowest bidder meeting said specs is chosen.

Soybomb
January 2, 2008, 03:44 AM
Sorry, but specific designs are not normally chosen because anybody at the agency thinks they are the Ultimate Combat Handgun. There is usually a selection process where certain desired features are spec'd out, vendors provide guns to test, then the lowest bidder meeting said specs is chosen.
Quoted for being the best information in the thread :D

Blarelli
January 2, 2008, 03:56 AM
Well, in a world where image is becoming increasingly important, I imagine police departments are deciding that they cannot have officers carrying around such an ugly gun. I imagine that is also why I'm starting to see Crown Vics being phased out and more Chargers used as patrol cars.

CTPistol
January 2, 2008, 08:30 AM
Sounds like what you hear at the local gunshop when he makes a few more bucks selling M&Ps...."all the cops are switchig"

:uhoh:

I get SWHC news all the time being a shareholder (unfortunatly) and they really like to let you know when a LE switches...its just not very often...

Still see most with Glocks around me. Im guessing its strictly a # game. Money rules.

I always confused as to why people care what cops carry when deciding to buy a pistol..:confused:

weisse52
January 2, 2008, 10:34 AM
Sorry, but specific designs are not normally chosen because anybody at the agency thinks they are the Ultimate Combat Handgun. There is usually a selection process where certain desired features are spec'd out, vendors provide guns to test, then the lowest bidder meeting said specs is chosen.

Best quote, and sadly true!

MASTEROFMALICE
January 2, 2008, 11:02 AM
It's not ALWAYS true. My department does have a lot of shortfalls but we did drop the Beretta 92 a few years ago and went to the HK USP.

Sure most people's scores dropped but......

ABBOBERG
January 2, 2008, 11:21 AM
I always confused as to why people care what cops carry when deciding to buy a pistol..

Well, be confused no more! Over the years at THR I have observed that most posters use their weapons as range guns. This includes the tiniest mouse guns bought with the intentions of "concealed carry". These guns have often demonstrated "hundreds of rounds without failure" etc., etc.

The people at THR that most often seem to deploy their weapons for defense and actually fire some rounds at the BG are the cops. The rest of us non-cops need to hear from the professionals on weapons of choice to know about street experience with these weapons.

PirateRadio
January 2, 2008, 11:22 AM
Well, in a world where image is becoming increasingly important, I imagine police departments are deciding that they cannot have officers carrying around such an ugly gun. I imagine that is also why I'm starting to see Crown Vics being phased out and more Chargers used as patrol cars.

I heard it was because Ford is no longer offering Crown Vics to LE agencies because they are tired of getting sued. Can't confirm this but it's what a firefighting buddy of mine told me.

45auto
January 2, 2008, 11:32 AM
Glock now has a "competitor" with similiar "features" from a company that can market, promote, service and "compete" on all levels...I'd guess.

That's "competition". :)

gtmtnbiker98
January 2, 2008, 12:12 PM
S&W is a marketing machine, when was the last time you seen a Glock commercial on the Outdoors Channel? Or better yet, when was the last time you seen Glock as a sponsor to a major shooting event or shooting related Outdoors Show (GSSF aside)? S&W is sponsoring everything and offering awesome rebates to push their wares, who cannot see that S&W is wanting to top Glock on market share?

Tin Gizel
January 2, 2008, 12:26 PM
Hopefully one close to me, that way I could get some barely used Glocks at a good price.

phantomak47
January 2, 2008, 12:38 PM
I've seen that alot over here in Southern CA. Is there any reason why? Could the Glocks be getting long in the tooth? (Not that there would be anything wrong with with at all...).
-bix

LAPD had a lot of problems with Glock, I forgot where the story is exactly but Glock came in 3 times trying to fix their Glock 21s and LAPD just gave up on them. I am not a Glock hater, I like them, but in only certain calibers.


http://cbs2.com/local/Glock.21.Los.2.511028.html

Thaddeus Jones
January 2, 2008, 12:38 PM
Not around these parts. Glock 22 and Sig 226 are the main battery of all the departments. Personally, I wouldn't trade either of those pistols for an M&P. TJ

Coronach
January 2, 2008, 01:19 PM
Well, in a world where image is becoming increasingly important, I imagine police departments are deciding that they cannot have officers carrying around such an ugly gun. I imagine that is also why I'm starting to see Crown Vics being phased out and more Chargers used as patrol cars.I hope this is a joke. It sure reads like one. ;)

Aesthetics have nothing to do with purchasing decisions. Performance and bottom line do. Rarely is it one of them alone, it is almost always a case of "we have $500 to spend per officer, which gun is the best at that price point or under" or something similar.

M&P is making inroads on the Glock market because it offers something Glock doesn't; interchangable backstraps, so officers with huuuuge handa and officers with teeny tiny hands can use the same gun effectively. Add in the fact that the gun performs well in tests of reliability and S&W is offering huge (Glock-style, actually) incentives for agencies to switch, and it really is a no-brainer for the beancounters as well as the armorers.

And the Charger is making inroads in the LE fleet business because they perform better (speed, accell, handling, gas mileage) and cost less than Crown Vics. The Panther platform (AKA "Crown Victoria") is alive and well as a fleet vehicle. It's strongest asset is its paleolithic nature; the platform is almost unchanged mechanically for, what, 20 years? There is an immense supply of parts and institutional knowledge in most fleet facilities with regards to the Crown Vic. Our joke is that if you gave our grease monkies a frame and blindfolds they could build a cruiser from spare parts in inventory.

Might take 'em a month, but they could. ;)

Mike

CountGlockula
January 2, 2008, 01:28 PM
The backstraps would be a good reason to go for an Hk then!!!

Anyways...more Glocks for me!!!

golden
January 2, 2008, 05:41 PM
When I purchased my first GLOCK, it sold for $300.00 through a private purchase program for my agency. They were very popular.

Now GLOCKS are selling for a lot more than that, even at police pricing and I have seen SMITH&WESSON Sigma's going for About $310.00. The M&P probably sells for a similar price as the GLOCK or less.

I am willing to bet that the current dollar-euro exchange rate has a lot to do with the popularity of the M&P. I would bet that SMITH&WESSON could undercut GLOCK by $30.00 to 40.00 a gun. That is a lot of money when you buy 1000 guns at a time.

I don't doubt it is a good gun, but if you can get it at or below the price of a GLOCK, you would have a hard time explaining why YOU DID NOT BUY IT.

Just my

Jim

Blarelli
January 2, 2008, 08:38 PM
Well, in a world where image is becoming increasingly important, I imagine police departments are deciding that they cannot have officers carrying around such an ugly gun. I imagine that is also why I'm starting to see Crown Vics being phased out and more Chargers used as patrol cars.
I heard it was because Ford is no longer offering Crown Vics to LE agencies because they are tired of getting sued. Can't confirm this but it's what a firefighting buddy of mine told me.

Yes, that was a joke, however, I do stand by the 'glocks are ugly' comment.:neener: Cops in my neck of the woods are split about 50-50 between glock 17/22 and sig 220/226/229.

GRIZ22
January 2, 2008, 09:15 PM
Sorry, but specific designs are not normally chosen because anybody at the agency thinks they are the Ultimate Combat Handgun......

Most accurate info here. I've helped test guns for adoption by an agency. The agency sets up it's criteria, tests guns submitted by manufacturers and usually (note usually) the least expensive gun passing the test is adopted. Many times the gun that is adopted doesn't work out for various reasons.

read reports of "numerous" LE agencies pulling their GLOCKs and instead issuing Smith & Wesson M&P pistols.


If the "numerous" agencies are 30-50 man police departments (nothing wrong with that but it takes a lot of them to buy a lot of guns) this wouldn't be a trend setter. If it's agencies like Customs and Border Protection (uses 30,000 handguns or more), ICE (probably 20,000 or more), or some other large agency that could be construed as a trendsetter.

DENALI
January 2, 2008, 09:53 PM
As to LA LE turning away from the G-21 because of AD's and ND's I would not be the least bit surprised that it's because there to big for there LEO's to safely handle under stress. The 21 makes a great 10mm but a lousy platform for a duty .45. I also wouldn't be surprised to hear that Glock's are still well regarded by LA's finest, just in a more sensible package like the 23-22. How about it LA LEO's, I for one would like to hear your thought's on this!

TomN
January 2, 2008, 09:55 PM
Competition is a good thing. It's nice to see S&W autos getting into more police holsters.

351 WINCHESTER
January 2, 2008, 10:15 PM
With the value of the dollar on the decline it's probably cheaper to buy s & w. It's usually about the bottom line. Having never fired a glock or a s & w mp I cannot say which one is better. I'm sure they both have their strong and weak points like anything else. It's usually about money.

Scorpiusdeus
January 2, 2008, 10:33 PM
I'd say replacing Glocks with M&Ps is a good thing. I still prefer Sig over both though.

LAPD still carries Glocks.

DENALI
January 2, 2008, 11:25 PM
Why! Why is it a good thing? Just because you don't like them or is there a compelling reason?

The Lone Haranguer
January 2, 2008, 11:37 PM
I just care what works for me. :)

MTS Cop
January 3, 2008, 03:50 AM
I've heard that NYPD is currently evaluating the M&P. Makes sense since Smith & Wesson probably won't be making the 5946 much longer. If this is true S&W is probably doing everything possible to win that contract. The NYPD is the trendsetter in the Northeast, if they adopt it a lot of other agencies will too. Of course the NYPD M&P would have a rediculous 12lb. trigger, but it would be great advertising for Smith & Wesson.

GRIZ22
January 3, 2008, 07:39 AM
I've heard that NYPD is currently evaluating the M&P. Makes sense since Smith & Wesson probably won't be making the 5946 much longer.

NYPD also authorizes SIG and Glock for duty wear and Kahr for off duty/plainclothes. The majority of NYPD officers carry Glocks due to price. Due to their longevity most officers will be carrying them their entire career and into retirement. NYPD won't ban guns already being carried. New guys would ask vets what's best and many would still buy Glocks for a few dollars more (no pun intended). It would be some time before a significant portion would be carrying S&Ws.

cornman
January 3, 2008, 09:46 AM
Going form the worlds ugliest and worst ergonomic pistol to the best looking bet ergonoics sounds like a no brainer to me.

nhhillbilly
January 3, 2008, 10:08 AM
NH State Police Dropped Sig Arms for the New MP 45. All the troopers I have spoken to like the new Smith and Wesson better.

glocktalk362
January 3, 2008, 10:39 AM
Hello , Terre Haute Police Department In Indiana Have Switched From Glock 22 To The .40 Cal M&p... I Reciently Talked To Some Of The Officers That This Switch Affected. Supprisingly All Of The Ones I Talked To Agreed On The Fact That The Gun Was Just More Comfortable And Easier To Control On The Follow Up Shot. Less Recoil = Better Accuracy = Less Colateral Dammage.

FranklyTodd
January 3, 2008, 11:17 AM
Any truth to a rumor I read that the Smith M&P models in 2008 are going to have an external safety (at least as an option)? Someone said that will be announced at the 2008 SHOT show. Smith did put a safety on the M&P 45, but do you think they'll continue that to the other models? I think I read the safety on the 45 was to comply with military specs in order to bid on the govt. contract, or some such thing?

Just curious if anyone had any info... If they do, I wonder if LE would go that route...

buzz_knox
January 3, 2008, 11:33 AM
The safety option for the .45 was to compete for the service pistol contract that has since fallen by the wayside.

I asked S&W a while ago about whether the safety would be provided on the other models. The answer was not at that time, but it might be an option in the future. A tuned M&P 9mm with a safety could be the answer to the Browning Hi Power for those of us who get bit by that critter yet love the idea of a slim single action 9.

Cloudpeak
January 3, 2008, 11:35 AM
Any truth to a rumor I read that the Smith M&P models in 2008 are going to have an external safety (at least as an option)?

That's the scoop according to the M-P Forum, FWIW.

Cloudpeak

45auto
January 3, 2008, 12:07 PM
Glock is anything but dumb!

If the M&P hurts them enough, then they will modify or bring out additional models.

On the flip side, with what's going on in the world, they may be so busy...they can't produce anymore...at the moment.

Tough to forecast, IMO, until pistol sales level or decline.

40SW
January 3, 2008, 12:07 PM
Clearwater Florida Police Department for sure. I have many friends there.,but they didn't leave Glock., they left Walther, Their issue was the Walther P99 in .40SW, they went for the M&P in .40SW. ,but since Walther and Smith & Wesson have a very cozy relationship, its still in the "family":)

Scorpiusdeus
January 3, 2008, 12:57 PM
Why! Why is it a good thing? Just because you don't like them or is there a compelling reason?

It's because I feel the M&P is a much better and more accurate handgun. I prefer our LEOs to have the best, not what's cheapest.

FranklyTodd
January 3, 2008, 01:05 PM
M&P is [] much better and more accurate [than Glock]

This has been an interesting thread. I hope this comment doesn't derail it into Glock v. SW. Whichever one anybody prefers, it seems overstated that one is MUCH better than the other, in either direction. They are clearly close in quality and accuracy, and any perceived differences can be attributed to personal preference. Please, Glock-lovers, don't rise to the challenge and torpedo this thread!

Coronach
January 3, 2008, 05:24 PM
If the "numerous" agencies are 30-50 man police departments (nothing wrong with that but it takes a lot of them to buy a lot of guns) this wouldn't be a trend setter. If it's agencies like Customs and Border Protection (uses 30,000 handguns or more), ICE (probably 20,000 or more), or some other large agency that could be construed as a trendsetter.I understand what you're saying (one 20k agency switching is the equivalent of 1,000 20-man departments), but you have to realize that the vaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaast majority of LE agencies in this nation are small agencies, and that most LEOs are employed by small to moderate sized departments. Small agencies are also able to make big changes more quickly than a huge agency, so it is unlikely that a big agency will be an early-adopter of a new weapon (the FBI's adoption of the 10mm might be the exception that proves the rule, and we know how well that worked out).

Mike

PS That's not a slam on the 10mm, btw.

W.E.G.
January 3, 2008, 05:38 PM
Its all a money thing.

Value of the dollar is dropping.

Glock is made overseas.

Larger police departments deadline all their guns on a regular basis. Its cheaper to replace them than it is to perform the periodic maintentance required to ensure that each gun is not worn out or broken.

Whichever one costs the least is the one the departments will buy.

It will be nice for the guys who can pick up the former LEO Glocks for cheap. If you only own one or two Glocks, you can do your own service and maintenance. Glocks tend to last forever anyway.

I already have my lifetime supply of Glocks.

DENALI
January 3, 2008, 05:57 PM
Ok scorpiusdeus I'll accept that, how is it better what defines the S&W as superior to the Glock platform? Just curious.....

Rexster
January 4, 2008, 12:44 AM
Officers in my agency buy their (our) own duty pistols, and must choose from a list of approved DA autos. The present policy started in 1997 with the Bereta Cougar, SIG P229, and an obscure decocker-only S&W .40. Over time, the list evolved, with the Cougar being dropped after numerous problems, being replaced with the 96G, and the G22 added about the turn of the century. Just this year, the list grew, with the DAK SIGs finally being officially sanctioned, and the SIG P226, Glock G23, Springfield XD, and S&W M&P added. (I, and a few others, managed to sneak our DAK SIGs onto our qual cards as early as 2004, despite some supervisors trying to stop it.) Today, I was speaking to a range officer, and he said the S&W M&Ps are really excellent pistols. He did not have time to eleborate before he had to go tutor a cadet who needed extra training. I carried a Glock G22 from 2002 to 2004, before switching to the P229, which fits me better, and shoots much better in my hands than the Glock. The G21SF is an indication that Glock seems to be learning that their pistols are too large and/or blocky for many people. The M&P seems to have an excellent concept with the interchangeable grip patterns. I doubt I will switch from a P229; switching guns is expensive, with the cost of the gun, spare magazines, the break-in ammo, and any other accessories needed if the duty pistol is to also be one's off-the-clock CCW piece. Plus, when I switch, I want to fire many more hundreds of rounds, to really learn the new weapon, and condition the trigger pull into my reflexes. In the 1980's and early 1990's, I switched too often to really become proficient; then I learned better.

Rexster
January 4, 2008, 12:51 AM
BTW, I remember the bulletins, going around to LE agencies around the USA, documenting LAPD's problems with .45 Glocks, and warning officers nationwide who might be carrying such Glocks. The .45 Glocks are still allowed at my agency, if they were "grandfathered" by late 1997. BTW, I grandfathered a Colt and two Kimber 1911 pistols in 1997, but voluntarily swtiched to a .40 Glock in 2002, and let the 1911s lapse. In hindsight, I should have started carrying a P229 way back in the mid-90's.

DENALI
January 4, 2008, 01:54 AM
Rexster do you feel the G-21 problems were due to the pistols size or are there other factors ie, like they had up in oregon with well documented kabooms with federal 230 JHP's?

GRIZ22
January 4, 2008, 03:43 AM
I understand what you're saying (one 20k agency switching is the equivalent of 1,000 20-man departments), but you have to realize that the vaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaast majority of LE agencies in this nation are small agencies, and that most LEOs are employed by small to moderate sized departments.

I agree with you on that. I started as an LEO with a 60 man police department in the NY metropolitan area. I thought of that a small police department until I went to a convention and most thought of 60 as a good size police department. Smaller agencies do have the problem of lacking the resources to conduct conclusive testing. The ammunition needed alone may cost more than their ammo budget for the year. On the other hand they have fewer people they need to "satisfY" with handgun requirements. Their beancounters are also more likely to spend an extra $20 for their requirement of 50 guns vs the agency that has to buy 10,000.

tydephan
January 4, 2008, 10:32 AM
I have been told that my local Sheriff's Department (Madison County, AL) has switched from the Beretta 96 to the M&P40. I have not yet verified this, however my local gunstore is now selling LEO trade-in 96's at a discount ($299), so it would seem so.

GunTech
January 4, 2008, 11:46 AM
I doubt S&W will underbid Glock. Agency price quoted for DHS was $299 for Glocks. I recall talking to a Glock rep who said they could easily underbid anyone if necessary. Right now demand is high enough they don't have to.

Having a number of good handguns from several makers at similar price points is a good thing

40SW
January 4, 2008, 11:50 AM
W.E.G
"Glock is made overseas."

As far as I know, most of the frame molding & actual pistol assembly is done in Smyrna GA.
Please correct me if I am wrong.

hrgrisso
January 4, 2008, 12:36 PM
Last I heard they still import the Glock pistols as a whole due to the import points system. If they were making the molded frames here we might have the .380 Glock...

I might buy one of those, just like I bought a 10mm. Glock does a good job of making unique calibers available.

But I'll stick to carrying my Sigs.

Jeff White
January 4, 2008, 12:47 PM
If it's happening, it's most likely because S&W is being more aggressive in their marketing then Glock. Agency purchasing decisions are based on money more then anything else.

When my old department switched from S&W 5906s to Glock 21s, the deal went down as follows:

In 1992 the dept went from revolvers S&W 65s and 66s to autos S&W 5906s. In 2000 they were looking to start replacing the night sights. Smith wanted something like $145 per weapon to replace the night sights. The local distributer offered to sell the dept. Glocks for the same price Smith wanted to replace the night sights with a $300.00 trade in credit for the S&Ws. They were interested in .40 and .45 weapons anyway, so they made the trade. Officers were given the option of purchasing their 5906s for the $300.00 trade in credit.

I would bet that those agencies who are changing are looking at the dollar, not which is the better weapon. If Smith and Wesson is making a run to get their status back as the most issued police weapon in the US then good on em. But I doubt the agencies that are switching are deciding one is better then the other. It's most likely something like my old agency did. Looking at a nice charge to replace the night sights, they ended up getting sold new pistols for close to the same price.

Jeff

Rexster
January 4, 2008, 12:55 PM
DENALI, I do not recall if the bulletins explained the cause of the problem or not. I don't think any explanation was given. G21s are too huge for my hands, and at the time of the bulletins, all new duty pistols at my agency had to be .40, so while I skimmed the bulletins, there was no reason for me to look for details. One local explanation I have heard for problems with parts breakage in the G36 is that .45 ACP has lower peak pressure than most other cartridges, but has a longer duration of pressure, instead of a rapid spike and drop-off. Perhaps a member of THR with ballistic pressure curve knowledge can weigh in on that.

Scorpiusdeus
January 4, 2008, 01:03 PM
Ok scorpiusdeus I'll accept that, how is it better what defines the S&W as superior to the Glock platform? Just curious.....


Well, for me, and again this in just MY opinion. I simply shoot almost any gun better than I can a Glock. Perhaps not a fair comparison as Glock has been around much longer then the M&P, but I haven't heard of any M&Ps "blowing up" due to unsupported chambers or reloads. Though the M&P is a newer handgun for S&W, the company itself has a long well earned great reputation. The M&P is made in America.

I've shot Glocks in the past. For me, they just don't feel right, the three that I've shot have all rattled. Maybe not a functional issue, but it bugged me.

Yes, I'm an admitted Glock hater.

That having been said, a good friend just purchased a Glock yesterday and he shot it better than any other gun I've seen him shoot save for his P239.

strangelittleman
January 4, 2008, 01:34 PM
I've heard that the New Mexico State Police are changing over from the Glock 31.357 to the S&W MP357. I don't know if it's happpened yet, but according to S&W it's going to.
My agency(NCDOC) went from the S&Wm65 to the MP40, largely due to aggressive marketing that just thrilled the state's bean counters. Glock just couldn't beat the deal S&W was offering for us to stay w/ S&W after the "exploding barrels" incidents with the 65s that had improperly mounted barrels, so S&W made an incredible deal for the state to go to w/ the MP40.
In short, when an agency chooses a new piece of equipment, it usually goes like this; manufacturer's agressive marketing + agency beancounters penny pinching = newly adopted equipment item.

40SW
January 5, 2008, 11:19 AM
I think I have this figured out, please correct me if I am wrong.

1. Both the S&W M&P line and Glocks line offer excellent pistols which are both dependable, reliable, and have a strong aftermarket support system from the manufacturer.

2. The person who controls the purse strings and the decision making process at the agency as to which pistol to outfit the department with , finally makes the decision based on ECONOMIC incentives from the manufacturer.

3. ,ie, the quality manufacturers, one offers deeper volume discounts and accessory support, etc.

4. Result: beancounter goes with the greater MONETARY INCENTIVE, (ie.volume discount,etc), (assuming both pistol lines are of an acceptable quality).

thoughts?

strangelittleman
January 5, 2008, 01:08 PM
Yep, 40SW, that's usually how it goes....

mikec
January 5, 2008, 01:14 PM
40SW, I think you have it correct. I never worked in law enforcement but I did work for a state university and I saw how things worked there. I would say that sometimes $$ might not be as big of a deciding factor. An example might be regular officers get the "best deal" guns but a SWAT team might be able to get what they want even if it costs more. One can get very creative writing a competitive bid spec sheet. An associate would often use patented names when writing his bid sheets, only the company that owns that patent could win the contract.

Coronach
January 5, 2008, 01:56 PM
What Jeff White and 40SW is generally the way it goes. My PD did something slightly different, but not too far off the mark. We got a whole mess of pistols to T&E and we could select whichever of them we wanted, allegedly regardless of cost. Now, before you have visions of multi-thousand dollars semi-custom jobs or $900 hunks of polymer Teutonic Weaponology (*cough*HK*cough*), these were all mid-range autopistols. The ordies got the prices and incentives from the manufacturers beforehand and basically got pre-approved for the guns we tested.

So, of the guns we tested, we could pick the one we wanted. We went withthe M&P. It T&E'ed better than anything else.

Mike

Matt Sutton
January 5, 2008, 03:44 PM
DFW Intl Airport police dropped the Beretta 92FS 9mm for the M&P 40. Nothing to do with Glock, but still a switch to the M&P.

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