[Drizzt]

Teenagers challenge male-only draft law

by David Weber
Friday, January 10, 2003


With a war in Iraq looming, a teenage brother and sister and three friends filed a federal lawsuit yesterday charging that the law requiring all 18-year-old males to register for a possible military draft is unconstitutional because it applies only to one gender.


Attorney Harvey A. Schwartz, who filed the lawsuit on behalf of his son, stepdaughter and their friends, said the goal is not to get young women registered, but to get the registration law struck down.

He said a broader motivation is to spur debate ``about the possibility of a draft and of having suburban kids being shipped across the world to fight a war.''

Alyce Burton, spokeswoman for the U.S. Selective Service System, which oversees the registration, said its constitutionality was tested in 1981 in the U.S. Supreme Court case of Rostker vs. Goldberg. The high court found that the law did not violate the Constitution.

``That decision was based on the very limited role of women at that time,'' Schwartz said. He said approximately 80 percent of military job titles are open to women and that women make up 15 percent of American armed forces personnel. They fly combat aircraft and serve on Navy combat ships.

He said the military presently prohibits women only from serving in units below the brigade level whose primary mission is to engage in direct combat on the ground while being exposed to hostile fire.

``Times have changed dramatically. It's time for another look,'' Schwartz said.

Suffolk University Law School Associate Dean Marc Perlin said, ``Over the past 10 or 15 years, the Supreme Court has really changed the law in the equal protection area and has upped the standard for federal or state governments to pass statutes based on gender. However strong this case may have been 15 years ago, it's stronger today.''

Failure to register is punishable by a fine of as much as $10,000 and imprisonment for up to five years. Those who do not register also are ineligible for federal student financial aid benefits such as Pell grants, may not be employed by various federal agencies and could be denied drivers licenses in some states.

Schwartz said the seeds of the lawsuit were sown about six months ago at his family dinner table in Ipswich when his 18-year-old son, Samuel, bemoaned the fact he had to register, and 17-year-old stepsister Nicole Foley rejoiced at not having to do so.

They quickly moved on to talking about the inequality and wondered how it could be legal.

They were joined as plaintiffs in their lawsuit by friends Evan Simons, 18, Douglas Scandrett, 19, and Joseph Monty, 20.

Foley acknowledged yesterday that their lawsuit conceivably could result in the law being changed to require young women to register.

``The discrimination is kind of in favor of women,'' she said yesterday. ``But this is kind of an ethical thing. If you say women have the same rights as men, you're going to have to take the good with the bad.''

http://www2.bostonherald.com/news/local_regional/draf01102003.htm

[DeltaElite]

Well good.
Women want equal rights and equal protection under the law, as they should have, then they should be held equally responsible for defending the country where they want such rights.

Draft the Bush twins, send em to war, I bet daddy dubya would have a different attitude if it were his kids being sent to die.

BTW, I treat all people equally, in fact I am always nicer to the ladies than I am to the guys. :evil:

[4v50 Gary]

Employ the homeless. Draft them first. First S.C. Infantry use to stand for First South Carolina Infantry Regiment. Modernly it stands for First Shopping Cart Infantry.

[JPM70535]

4V50GARY

Theres an idea that has merit. Not only would drafting the homeless eliminate a public eyesore, it would free up untold millions of charity dollars to be used for other purposes such as battered womens shelters and orphanages.

Lets take this train of thought one step further. Why can't we also draft the unemployed. (of appropriate ages of course) Not only would the number of unemployed deminish drastically, but it would go a long way towards improving the economic picture.

I like your idea. I just hopr the homeless dont have too much trouble kicking their drug-alcohol habits, and the drill instructors might have a problem teaching them to push their shopping carts in unison.



PRAISE THE LORD AND PASS THE MUSCATEL!!!!

[PATH]

4v50 Gary,

We should draft the homeless. A great many of them are mentally ill. Do we have to administer the oath several times to those with multiple personalities.

Women will not be drafted. It just won't happen. Why? The SCOTUS will decide against it. But why will they decide against it? Because it is fashionable and only a fool would ask!:D

[Kharn]

The military would probably resist taking the homeless, they want their soldiers to be basically mobile blood banks and thus free of diseases like Hepatitis. The law suit is interesting, I wouldnt be suprised if the courts ruled either way on the issue.

Kharn

[gryphon]

Hey, if women want to serve in a forward combat zone let them. However, they must meet the same requirements as the males have to. They should not lessen the physical requirements as they do now.

I know a lot of women who can kick some major rump, but they got that way by pushing themselves to be equal to the males they were competing against.

[Rotorhead]

About time for females. Although I'm not to sure I want to be in the same foxhole as any draftee, previously homeless unemployed or not. Anyone who is up to snuff ought to be able to do any job they want.

[cuchulainn]

Homeless?

Why would we want a corps at its core made of walking corpses...

... unless we were making Son of Army of Darkness?

[nualle]

American blacks proved themselves from the Civil War to WWII in black-only units that earned superb records. I have long thought it would be fascinating to see women-only combat units tried, too. Don't laugh. Y'all ever heard of Dahomey?

As for the draft, I'm against it. But given that it's law, it should at least be equitably applied. Whichever way the court rules on this one has got to be a step forward.

[Blackhawk]

Women don't want equal rights. They never did. The one's agitating for them really want special rights. Same is true of the other groups wanting this or that "right". They think they're special, and they want that codified.

As for this suit, Schwartz wants his 15 minutes, and he wants it NOW!

[Blackhawk]

I have long thought it would be fascinating to see women-only combat units tried, too.Great! Round up enough volunteers, train them, and make the proposal to have them absorbed into the appropriate combat arms branch.

If those skinny little Vietnamese can field an army and maintain several lengthy combat campaigns, surely American women can too!

Step one, though, is rounding up the volunteers.

Keep us posted....

[nualle]

Step one, though, is rounding up the volunteers.
They're there. If women had been allowed to fly combat aircraft back when I was graduating HS in the mid 80s, I'd have joined up and requested that training—and if I'd been found to lack the requisite aptitudes, I'd have gladly served out my term in an MOS that suited me better. As it was, the services lost me sight unseen because of their arbitrary rule.

[Stephen Ewing]

It's never gotten much press in the U.S. for reasons that changed over time, but once upon a time, there were some very impressive achievements attributed to some ladies known as "The Night Witches." Something about cutting the engine on a biplane to hear your target better as you glide through a pitch black night just seems to strike most people as foolhardy. Soviet women didn't seem to do poorly in tanks, or fighters, for that matter.

I'm another one who wouldn't be surprised or upset by the ruling going either way.

Steve

[KY Moose]

We should draft the homeless. A great many of them are mentally ill. Do we have to administer the oath several times to those with multiple personalities.

If we do that, make up separate paper work on each personality. That way we could make the enemy think we have more soldiers than we actually do. Now there is an idea. :neener:

[benewton]

Thinking a bit on the older days, there is really a point to the female draft...

After all, they always told me that if the Army wanted you to have one, they'd issue it!

So, if I can get this straight, if you enlist for combat arms, you should get issued, one, each mattress, field!

Can you imagine what this'll do for the enlistment rates for the all V army?

Think of how easy it wold have been to prepare for IG inspects!


'course, that'd be recruiter talk, because what you'd be issued would either have, or should have been issued, four legs, and it'd surely cost you more in effort than it was worth.

Ah, well, just a thought.

[Selfdfenz]

1.There are alot of women in the miliatry now as volunteers.
2.These female troops may not be in front line combat formations but that does not promise they will never be involved in combat. It just lessens the possibility.
3.While I am aware women miliatry personnel can fly combat missions I can't see why driving a tank would be much different if they are physically able to put a track right.

So, by default, much of this has already been decided by policy in the armed forces already.

I say if we are going to draft young men why in the name of whatever should make young women exempt? Anything else is too bogus to comtemplate.
It's not like every draftee winds up in a foxhole.

On another point, can you imagine a woman General commanding a front line combat formation, or getting her star in the first place, without having done the Chesty Puller thing. I don't think so.

S-

[Selfdfenz]

If young women cannot be drafted then neither should young men.
S-

[Hkmp5sd]

Why would we want a corps at its core made of walking corpses...

Everyone can use a little cannon fodder now and again.

[modifiedbrowning]

to push their shopping carts in unison
LMAO:D That is one of the funniest things I have heard in quite awhile.

[modifiedbrowning]

to push their shopping carts in unison
LMAO:D That is one of the funniest things I have heard in quite awhile.

[Blackcloud6]

Waaah! What a bunch of crybabys. (The people in the article)

[Joe Demko]

The franchise was once denied to women. So there is no reason why their chance to be government slaves should be denied them.

[Pendragon]

While I am opposed to the draft, I do think that if we are going to have it, it ought to apply to everyone regardless of gender.

Nobody is willing to say that men and women are different and are viewed differently in society - no, we are all the same, all equal, etc until *gasp!* you want to TAKE MY LITTLE GIRL AND MAKE HER FIGHT!? LITTLE GIRLS DO NOT FIGHT WAHHHH!

Maybe our leaders would be more responsible if we did put our young ladies into infantry and the draft.

I say good for them for filing suit. Why does being male mean you should be enslaved to fight and die while being female makes you "safe".

Way more than enough stupidity to go around.

[WyldOne]

Waaah! What a bunch of crybabys. (The people in the article)

Excuse me? How so?

They're taking action to stand up for what they believe in, which is a heckuva lot more than most people can say.

As for the plaintiffs, more power to 'em! :)

(Y'know, last time I got in a draft discussion on TFL, I advocated pretty much the same position as the plaintiffs, and I seemed to be in the minority. 'Tis interesting to see that more people do support equality).

[Blackcloud6]

>>They're taking action to stand up for what they believe in...<<

I doubt it. They are more than likely trying to find a roundabout way to get rid of the registration system so their little fannies won't get called up.

A draft ids part of democracy folks! We all have an obligation to serve, the lottery draft just picks the ones who are going to do so.

Slaves to the Government? be real. We are the government: of the people, by the people, for the people.

I don't give a hill of beans for a man that is not willing to stand up. Notice I use the masuline on purpose as warfighting.. the fighting part not some staff work etc. is a man's job.

[WyldOne]

I doubt it. They are more than likely trying to find a roundabout way to get rid of the registration system so their little fannies won't get called up.

Yes, they are most likely attempting to nullify the Selective Service requirement. However, my point (which seems to have been neglected), was that at least they're not just talking about it. At least they're DOING something about it. And, agree or disagree with their position, it's pretty hard to call people "whiners" when they're pursuing ACTION instead of sitting around complaining.


A draft ids part of democracy folks! We all have an obligation to serve, the lottery draft just picks the ones who are going to do so.

We don't live in a democracy.

And did you just say that slavery is "just a part of life, get over it"? Or did I misconstrue your point?


Slaves to the Government? be real. We are the government: of the people, by the people, for the people.

It would be nice if that were, in fact, how it worked.


I don't give a hill of beans for a man that is not willing to stand up. Notice I use the masuline on purpose as warfighting.. the fighting part not some staff work etc. is a man's job.

So I fully expect to never hear you refer to feminists/women's libbers/ etc as "free loading" because we refuse to "serve our country".

[Gray Peterson]

The selective service law should be removed.

Any nation that is truly under attack and truly with virtue would have tens of millions of volunteers for their effort. Right now, the entire reasoning behind instituting mandatory service now is about blind nationalism.

For me, I don't believe that if a draft were to occur, I would be. I'm too out of proportion in a few ways, and I would regularly violate Article 125 of the UCMJ, and state so.

Now, if a nation were to attempt an invasion, like China, I'd say "bring it". House to House combat is all the invaders being taken down one by one.

Bringing in the draft for garrison duty in Afghanistan or Iraq or wherever is stupid.

[priv8ter]

Okay, I'm gonna be a wimp here and dodge the whole question of the draft being right or wrong, and whether or not men are equal to women. I am going to address the one sentence in this whole thing that spins me up more and more as I think about it.

He said a broader motivation is to spur debate ``about the possibility of a draft and of having suburban kids being shipped across the world to fight a war.''

What a load of horse fertilizer :cuss: :cuss:

So, what Mr. Schwartz really thinks is that it's okay for the son of some rural country bumpkin to go fight, just like it is okay for the son of some inner city struggling parent to go fight. But, in no uncertain terms, it is not okay for the rich, pampered, spoiled kids of lawsuit happy lawyers to have to go fight. :rolleyes:

the seeds of the lawsuit were sown about six months ago at his family dinner table in Ipswich when his 18-year-old son, Samuel, bemoaned the fact he had to register

I can picture young Samuel now, 'But Daddy-kins, can't you pay one of the young rabble down the street to fill out my registration for me. I don't even know where the post office is!' :banghead:

Oh, what's the use. Let's just say I'm kind of frustrated right now.

[Hkmp5sd]

While I am opposed to the draft, I do think that if we are going to have it, it ought to apply to everyone regardless of gender.

One problem with a mandatory draft of females is the issue of pregnancy. Are we going to force-feed birth control pills to the women to ensure their combat readiness? Are we going to punish women that get pregnant to avoid combat duty? Will they be forced to have abortions or does the military add daycare centers to the TO&E?

[Byron Quick]

The Selective Slavery System should be applied equitably, by all means!


There's a story in Russia about sleighs being chased by wolves while the sleighs' riders toss one another out one by one to hold off the wolves. Same moral principle as the draft. Hey, the majority voted to throw the minority to the wolves...perfect democracy...as well as a perfect example of why the founding fathers distrusted pure democracy.

I joined without the pressure of a draft just after Vietnam. From what I saw of the draftees who were still serving...1) We don't need such 2) I would be fearful of trusting my butt to such in combat.

Heinlein said it best but I am reduced to paraphrasing him: No country which cannot raise adequate volunteers for its own defense deserves to continue to exist. And, in the long run, no country ever has.

[Blackcloud6]

By law, women cannot go into combat so drafting them would be useless.

[Blackcloud6]

Lonnie:

From The Manual for Courts Martial, Article 125, Sodomy:

e. Maximum punishment.
(1) By force and without consent. Dishonorable
discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and
confinement for life without eligibility for parole.
(2) With a child who, at the time of the offense,
has attained the age of 12 but is under the age of 16
years. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay
and allowances, and confinement for 20 years.
(3) With a child under the age of 12 years at the
time of the offense. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture
of all pay and allowances, and confinement for
life without eligibility for parole.
(4) Other cases. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture
of all pay and allowances, and confinement for
5 years.

Enjoy your stay in the military....

[WyldOne]

One problem with a mandatory draft of females is the issue of pregnancy. Are we going to force-feed birth control pills to the women to ensure their combat readiness? Are we going to punish women that get pregnant to avoid combat duty? Will they be forced to have abortions or does the military add daycare centers to the TO&E?

A very important point. In fact, one worth a lot of discussion and thought.

I will quickly say this, and then try to revisit the issue either here, or in a separate thread: Women don't become pregnant alone. So, both the man and the woman should be held accountable for their actions, and for the consequences of their actions.

But why would a soldier be having sex? Shouldn't he and she be busy worrying about fighting, surviving, winning, etc?

I know nothing about promiscuity among soldiers; nor would I like to even wager a guess. But perhaps prohibiting sex between soldiers? I don't know; that's a thought off the top of my head, probably not a wise one, certainly an uneducated one.

[Flying V]

The only persons who should be subject to the draft are those who support it for others.

[Hkmp5sd]

The only persons who should be subject to the draft are those who support it for others.

Okay by me. I've always contended that only honorably discharged veterans should get Veterans Day as a paid holiday.:)

[Silver Bullet]

priv8ter,

"suburban" got my attention, too. One of the things to be alert for from the socialist hordes is an effort to make some classes more equal than others. In many communist countries, the ruling class was made up of thugs and cronies, and the productive folks made up the working class. It's the Grasshopper and the Ant story, with the Grasshopper in charge.

A few years ago California offered its teachers immunity from state income taxes in lieu of a pay raise. The teachers turned it down, but I'm astounded that the other Californians didn't scream (at least, not that I heard). That could have been the beginning of a privileged class structure in that state: "we're teachers (or politicians or entertainers) and shouldn't have to pay taxes like the little people".

[Silver Bullet]

I forgot to enclose my response with and then .

[Byron Quick]

But why would a soldier be having sex? Shouldn't he and she be busy worrying about fighting, surviving, winning, etc?

The response of men and women to living through extreme life threatening situations is well documented...sex and lots of it. During the Blitz in London in WWII, birth rates spike on a one to one basis with the severity of the bombing nine months beforehand.

Soldiers of either sex are human beings. Human beings, considered as a group, respond to surviving extreme situations by procreating.

[Old Fuff]

>> He said a broader motivation is to spur debate "about the possibility of a draft and of having suburban kids being shipped across the world to fight a war." <<

Oh dear. It would appear that SUBURBAN KIDS are somehow special when it come to being shipped out to fight from Liberal Land. Less economically fortunate youths should do the fighting so that the suburban types can stay home and live the good life. I don't know that I'd want this kid or his sister in the next foxhole either. Much prefer some rednecks who know how to shoot.