Glock-one in chamber or not?


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larry24
January 3, 2008, 11:26 AM
My everyday carry gun is either my glock 19 or my 27. I never carry the gun holstered with a live round in the chamber. This is due primarily to the relative light trigger pull of these models. I feel much "safer" against any accidental discharges as a result......Several times I have felt as if I were entering a hostile or possibly dangerous situation I will chamber a round, or if I am alarmed by strange noise in the middle of the night.

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cdcmj
January 3, 2008, 11:38 AM
I voted to Always keep a live round chambered. I do this, because I believe in the school of thought that an unloaded weapon is an expensive paper weight. Also, with proper dry fire practice, training, and repeated holstering drills, the muscle memory will ensure no AD. I have an XD, which affords me the added confidence of a grip safety, which I make sure not to depress during holstering moves. Regardless, I feel that a glock, which is comparable, should be chambered with confidence if the user is confident.

larry24
January 3, 2008, 11:42 AM
I guess I just feel better knowing that when I get home and remove my paddle holster with gun and put it either in my night stand or cabinet (lets be real, a locked gun is useless) that I know that ever before that gun was in the wrong hands that the slide has to be manually engaged before discharge.

larry24
January 3, 2008, 11:44 AM
When I carry my Smith and Wesson model 3914, which is another one of my favorite guns, I usually do keep a round in the chamber with that gun. I feel better with a heavy double action trigger pull as well as an external safety

DFW1911
January 3, 2008, 12:34 PM
I always carry with a round in the chamber no matter what I'm carrying.

Take Care,
DFW1911

ZeSpectre
January 3, 2008, 12:37 PM
Don't own a Glock but the principle is the same...

If I'm carrying it (or it's in the fast access lockbox) there is one up the snout and for pretty much the same reasons I keep my seatbelt buckled if I'm in the car.

weisse52
January 3, 2008, 12:44 PM
IF you need it, you need it with a round loaded and ready to go. IF you do not feel safe with a round loaded, then get another gun to carry.
(lets be real, a locked gun is useless)

And not having it loaded and ready to go is useless as well.

larry24
January 3, 2008, 12:50 PM
i disagree, its not as if Im barney fife and have to fumble it out of my shirt pocket. I can draw my glock and chamber a live round in less than 2 seconds if needed...........Like I said earlier, IF i am entering a hostile situation I take prior actions.............

I cant' think of very many scenarios of where I wouldn't have a chance to load a round if needed.........Onviously for law enforcement, military, etc.....You ALWAYS need a round in the chamber.

D-Man
January 3, 2008, 12:56 PM
If you aren't comfortable with keeping a round chambered in your Glock, then the Glock is not the correct weapon for you.

How do you plan to chamber a round if entering a hostile situation on the street - if you see a bunch of potential 'bad' guys down the street do you plan to duck behind a bush, pull out your gun, and rack it?

Maybe one of those NY springs that are heavier or a Comonilli (sp?) safety will work if you plan to keep the Glock.

larry24
January 3, 2008, 01:10 PM
I guess I should have been more specific..........I live in a very rural area. And drive straight to our shop which is on my dads property. So for me, walking down the street in the city is considered a hostile or dangerous situation. I am 30 years old and have been shooting since I was 12......Very good and experienced shooter.......I don't want it to sound like Im not familiar with my weapons......Its just how I choose to carry my gun.
I was curious to see whom else carried this way also.

Thanks for the feedback guys.........

TheActor
January 3, 2008, 01:11 PM
There is nothing more useless than an unloaded gun.

FranklyTodd
January 3, 2008, 01:25 PM
If you aren't comfortable with keeping a round chambered in your Glock, then the Glock is not the correct weapon for you.

Maybe one of those NY springs that are heavier or a Comonilli (sp?) safety will work if you plan to keep the Glock.

I went through both of these thoughts in settling on a carry piece. For my personal carry situation, I wanted an external safety or else would not carry with one in the chamber (tried the NY1 - definitely harder pull, but still only 1/2in. compared to my long-pull DAO j-frame - carry the j in complete confidence).

I looked high and low for a subcompact automatic with an external safety that would compete with a G26 in terms of reliability and concealability. No luck. CZ 2075 RAMI was the closest, but its safety only works in Cocked-and-Locked mode. The HK USPc is too big. Beretta is supposedly coming out with a subcompact PX4 with safety, but you sweep it UP for fire mode - for me I don't want to go there - too much time logged on guns with "sweep down" for fire. That would screw with me under stress! Plus, though small, its reported dimensions are somewhat larger than G26/27.

Thus, my conclusion is that a Glock w/o a safety is fine if you are comfortable with it (not trying to convince anyone otherwise), but if you feel you must have a safety, at least in subcompact, a Glock 26/27 with Cominolli is still the best gun out there... I get LEO discount, so I'll have $525 in the gun with the safety (taking it to the Smith this afternoon).

One in the chamber with a safety compared to NOT carrying one in the chamber: having the safety seems the less onerous. Sweeping it off becomes automatic (and already is for me, from previous guns), and is accomplished with one hand (racking the slide is doable one handed but difficult).

To each his own - just sharing my thoughts...

03Shadowbob
January 3, 2008, 01:34 PM
To each his own but I always carry with one in the chamber no matter which gun I am carrying. In a stressful situation it's one last thing I have to worry about (although training negates this somewhat).
I also like what was wrote above about ducking behind a bush to chamber a round or better yet, having to ask a BG to wait one second while I chamber a round.

CountGlockula
January 3, 2008, 01:36 PM
I never carry the gun holstered with a live round in the chamber. This is due primarily to the relative light trigger pull of these models. I feel much "safer" against any accidental discharges as a result......

Gun Safety Rule #2) ALWAYS keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot.

For me, owning a GLOCK has this rule screaming in my brain everytime I carry.
Lastly, there is no such thing as an Accidental discharge...if someone has one, then he/she is a numbskull.

usp9
January 3, 2008, 01:46 PM
I voted never. Guns kill people and loaded guns kill even more people. Much too dangerous. I even remove the triggers.



DOH!

Jim K
January 3, 2008, 02:01 PM
While I have never carried a Glock, I vote with the "chambered round" group. As a LEO I normally carried a revolver, but when I carried an auto pistol it was always with the chamber loaded.

The idea that a non-LEO can or should carry chamber empty doesn't really fly. IMHO, a non-LEO may be MORE likely to have to use the gun in a hurry than a LEO. A uniformed officer is rarely attacked suddenly, where a civilian might be. For example, there are few carjackings of marked police cars or muggings of uniformed police officers.

Jim

strat81
January 3, 2008, 02:05 PM
I feel much "safer" against any accidental discharges as a result
Feeling safe and being safe aren't the same. Have you ever come home to find the trigger back on your Glock? I haven't, nor has anyone else I know that carries a Glock - with or without a round chambered.

I suppose if you have poor trigger discipline and insist on putting your finger inside the trigger guard, it could be an issue. But if that's the case, maybe you shouldn't carry at all.

if I were entering a hostile or possibly dangerous situation I will chamber a round
Why would you willingly enter a hostile or dangerous situation? I avoid places like that.

I feel better with a heavy double action trigger pull as well as an external safety
Trigger pulls can be made heavier on a Glock. All you need is a punch and silly plastic part for about $10. Takes less than 10 minutes to install. Do a search for "NY Trigger" or "New York Trigger". Of course, heavier trigger pulls generally degrade accuracy.

Like I said earlier, IF i am entering a hostile situation I take prior actions.
Like I said earlier, why enter a hostile situation? In such a case, use the Nike defense: turn around and leave.

walking down the street in the city is considered a hostile or dangerous situation.
I think you need to revisit the definitions of hostile and dangerous. Or, visit other cities and/or neighborhoods.

larry24
January 3, 2008, 02:06 PM
Calm down strap81, I didn't take the loaded round out of your glock...................

Obviously I wish I lived in the magical kingdom you did where you never enter a dangerous or hostile situation. Thats life and it happens.
Do I often attempt to wander in gang territory and break up a "CRIPS" gathering, NO!

And walking down the street in any major city across america DOES hold the possibility of DANGER............

Also, if you are such a firm believer in your NIKE approach, why do you have a gun at all???????????

CountGlockula
January 3, 2008, 02:11 PM
By the time this forums over, you guys will have me carrying 2 glocks!

In the words of Borat: "That's NICE!"

fineredmist
January 3, 2008, 02:24 PM
What was the point of your question? It is your choice so why bother to ask for someone else's opinion.

larry24
January 3, 2008, 02:30 PM
The point of my question was to see how many other shooters carried the way I do...............And I know its my choice, I was asking for opinions because thats what you do in a forum...You discuss issues...

CORRECT???????

Geno
January 3, 2008, 02:35 PM
I would suggest that if you feel the trigger is too light to be safe, take it to a Glock certified smith and have an LEO 12 Lb trigger installed. The way you are carrying, no chambered round, simply delays your ability to defend yourself and your family, friends, etc.

Doc2005

rcmodel
January 3, 2008, 02:45 PM
I can draw my glock and chamber a live round in less than 2 seconds if needed...........Try it with a bad guy hanging off your left arm sometime.

(While he is beating you in the face with one fist, and stabbing you with a knife in the other hand.)

Carrying an empty gun for SD is just a plain bad idea!

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j219/rcmodel/KTOG/1224.gif
rcmodel

logical
January 3, 2008, 02:53 PM
I was baffled by this one until I saw that there are 12% who do it too, now I'm just plain shocked.

Find something you like that has a manual safety or a heavy DAO trigger. You want something that doesn't take 2 hands and 2 seconds (yeah, right) to make ready.

Prince Yamato
January 3, 2008, 02:54 PM
I personally carry IWB with an Uncle Mike's holster. It's made of neoprene. I bought two. One of them to test the reliability of the holster and the other because based on my previous experience with Uncle Mike's, I knew the holster would be good.

Anyway, I determined after beating tearing and almost breaking the test holster, that unless I was able to physically stick a J-hooked shaped object down into the holster, physically manipulate the object into the trigger guard, AND be able to pull the object up with enough force to activate the trigger... you will not have an AD with a Glock in the holster.

Not chambering the gun makes it a useless paper-weight. In the stress of a fight, chambering the Glock could cause it to accidentally slingshot out of your hands (especially if you are sweaty and nervous).

Lonestar49
January 3, 2008, 02:57 PM
Quote: There is nothing more useless than an unloaded gun.
----------
...

Actually, *not having a gun at all falls under "useless" .. IMO

And, from what I have read of this entire post, I'd say Larry is fine, knows his SA, does not live in a concrete jungle like the majority of us.

And if he likes Glocks and he is current, pulling and racking in under 2 secs, then I'd say he has his comfy zone in check.. and has a right to be happy and confident with that choice.

To each his own, as his post really asked, who carries (Glocks) and how?

Me, no offence to Glocks but, I'm only comfy with guns with hammers, (one can "see") in either DA/SA or SAO-1911's ( all chambered) DA/SA with decockers only, and love the 1911 cocked and locked, with both safety's, especially with the thumb slide-safety ON.

A man has got to know his limitations.. which doesn't mean one lacks vs another.


Ls

Broadhead
January 3, 2008, 03:05 PM
Fact: Light single-action trigger pull or heavy revolver trigger pull, a gun fires when the trigger is pulled.

Opinion: I think my Glocks, contained in a quality holster that covers the trigger guard, are completely prevented from firing the chambered cartridge.

D-Man
January 3, 2008, 03:08 PM
^ A man has got to know his limitations.. which doesn't mean one lacks vs another.

A great point, as in the end it only matters what the original poster is comfortable with.

I hate when people bring up Glocks and talk about a light trigger pull or wanting a safety and the usual comments of 'Keep your booger of the bang switch' come up. (Yes, I know I completely screwed up that saying). Some people just like different things, and if it's a heavier trigger with an external hammer (for example), so be it.

I picked up my first striker fired gun a couple of months ago, but I went with a M&P45 w/ safety, as that was my preference.

Geno
January 3, 2008, 03:27 PM
Okay, I'm back. I wanted to check my course notes. Each time I take a Tactical Shooting course or an Advanced Tactical Shooting course, I take "several" pages of notes. As a former administrator, I was trained up in "scripting". Basically one writes shorthand everything the person says. Per course, I take the better part of 30 to 50 pages of notes.

According to the one instructor, per my notes, the average defensive shoot lasts about 2 seconds. The average number of bullets fired in that time is around 2.5 rounds.

So, if someone is fumbling around looking to chamber their weapon, and it takes two (2) seconds to do so, it's all over. Please re-read, and reconsider my previous post. If the trigger is too light, get a stiffer trigger. If you can't carry a Glock with confidence, get one that you can.

If you can't Glock-it...
cock-it & lock-it...
with a Colt 1911.

Your life, your peace-of-mind.

10-Ring
January 3, 2008, 06:04 PM
When I carry, it is with a round in the chamber, firearm ready to go...

jlficken
January 3, 2008, 06:42 PM
I started carrying a cocked and locked 1911 but switched to a Glock because I wanted more than the 7 rounds in a mag (just another one of those I would rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it things) and .40 is plenty good for 2 legged attackers. I was a little nervous at first but now it is no worry at all. I have been carrying it for 3+ months and I say that good safety practices along with a good quality leather/kydex holster that stops anything from entering the trigger will negate any chance of a ND.

I also agree in the mention of the "Nike approach" in that avoidance is the first door (so to speak) when carrying concealed.

Just my .02

Soybomb
January 3, 2008, 07:11 PM
If you aren't comfortable with keeping a round chambered in your Glock, then the Glock is not the correct weapon for you.
Sounds like good advice to me. I'd find a gun out there that you feel comfortable using.

Setzer77
January 3, 2008, 07:24 PM
Used to carry my Glock with an empty chamber (the 3.5# pull on the 34 made me nervous), but I got used to it after a while, it won't just magically go off.

mgregg85
January 3, 2008, 07:26 PM
Those dang glocks are unsafe, gotta have the grip safety and the trigger safety to be truly safe :neener: Get an XD and carry +1 all the time

Lucky 7
January 3, 2008, 07:52 PM
I can empathize with you on this concern. I carried my Glocks (19 w/ 3.5# trigger and 34 w/ 4.5 # trigger) with an empty chamber for almost 2 weeks before I came to terms that if it were to fire, I was to blame. It was a change from my SigPro and Kimber, but it was all mental, and easy to overcome.

Try this solution: Have a buddy roll a dummy round (mark it clearly), chamber it, then, while performing your honey-do list one weekend, see if the primer gets struck. This little excerise will help you overcome the worry, and instill confidence in your equipment.

Regards and Semper Fi!
-L7

Lucky 7
January 3, 2008, 08:00 PM
I'd also like to echo about the right holster. Sparks Summer Special II and Hume PCCH are great holsters and completely cover the trigger guard. This is a damn important part of your carry gear (right after a reliable peice you can use accurately) if you're serious about carrying. IDK how many times I've seen cats at the range tug their ENTIRE holster and weapon out.

Get it right the first time and don't collect more holsters than you have handguns.

Regards and Semper Fi!
-L7

triguy
January 3, 2008, 08:17 PM
Many are forgetting that even though Glock does not have a conventional manual saftey it's "SAFE ACTION" design has 3 independent, mechanical safety devices. The trigger safety, firing pin safety and drop safety are revolutionary and can be trusted fully. Carry one in the pipe and train, train train !

Ringer
January 3, 2008, 08:19 PM
Several times I have felt as if I were entering a hostile or possibly dangerous situation I will chamber a round

Then what do you do with the gun, re-holster it? What about when you exit the situation? For me this is when I fear an ND the most, when handling the gun in a not so controlled situation. My gun goes in the holster and holster in the pants as I'm getting dressed and doesn't come out. Oh and it goes in with a round in the chamber. To each their own. I voted ALWAYS.

fubb
January 3, 2008, 09:16 PM
:)it shoots better that way

birddog1
January 3, 2008, 09:24 PM
larry,

the choice is ultimately yours, but I'm with the majority. I carry MY G19 with one in the chamber every day. You justified doing it this way by saying you will chamber a round if/when you get into a dangerous situation. The problem with that is that folks don't know when that is going to happen. If they did, they would avoid the situation to begin with. Just my thoughts.

bd1

Riss
January 3, 2008, 09:37 PM
Because this thread is getting quite long I may be repeating what others have said. The Glock was designed with a long, and somewhat heavy trigger pull for a reason. Carrying one in the chamber is fine, the same as a revolver. Do not pull the trigger and it will not go off. This does not completely apply to those of us that also have, but not carry, heavily modified G-35 IPSC guns, with no overtravel, or pretravel and about a 2 Lb trigger. That gun I would not carry concealed. It is way too big. The gun is safe enough, but I do not think I will ever have to shoot upwards of 20 guys in less than 1 minute, while running. My G-27 will do just fine.

Prince Yamato
January 3, 2008, 10:17 PM
Before I bought my Glock 26, I extensively tested its trigger in the store. While unloaded, try to balance the gun by its trigger on your finger. The gun won't magically discharge. The trigger won't even go off. Next, stick the gun down your waistband ("mexican carry") style. Try and pull the trigger through your pants. It's possible, but still requires a distinct effort. Finally, get a decent holster and try to jimmy the trigger though it. Next to impossible. You're more likely to dislodge the safety on a cocked and locked 1911 than you are to engage the trigger on a Glock. Keep in mind that the trigger safety is millimeters thick. It is in the dead center of the trigger and cuts at an angle (natural for your finger, unnatural for anything else) and must be fully depressed to even depress the trigger. Next you have the weight of the trigger. The trigger on the Glock does not immediately click the striker when it is pulled all the way back. There is that "stopping point" before you have to add the required poundage (5.5-8 usually) to get the trigger to go bang. The stock 5lb trigger is still quite heavy for a non-human object to engage.

I know about "Glock's 3 safeties" but personally, they've never meant anything to me. I was more worried about the same things you were. I'm not going to drop the gun. I'm more worried about it firing into my groin area. It won't do that. It's designed NOT to do that. Like another poster mentioned. A good portion of your fear is mental. If your cocked and locked 1911's safety disengaged, you'd have a gun with a 1 lb trigger. If my Taurus 605 revolver's hammer cocked when I leaned back, I'd have a revolver cocked with a 1/2lb trigger point straight at my groinal arteries.

I seriously don't know of any Glock accidents that weren't user related (too powerful of handloads or stupid handling of the Glock).

Also remember this gun is designed by Austrians. They, like their German cousins, do not build crap. They just don't. Gaston Glock probably sat in solitary isolation for a couple years just drawing up the gun. I'd bet that engineers at the Glock factory probably spend every day trying to make the guns misfire or break. These guns have also been around since 1987. That's over 20 years. If there was a problem, there would have been a recall by now.

Harley Quinn
January 3, 2008, 11:01 PM
I like Glocks and I like the idea it can be carried both ways. If not in a holster and its laying around, I am inclined to not have one in the chamber. :what:
If in a holster designed for the pistol it is loaded. I can tell the difference by the fact that when not loaded in the chamber, I have the trigger in the pulled state and not the ready, works for me :uhoh:

rhweb32
January 3, 2008, 11:13 PM
In a stressful situation you're unchambered glock won't do you any good. Go to a range and have one of the instructors put a little artificial stress on you as you are drawing and shooting. I'd bet my money, that atleast 7 outta 10 times you would forget to chamber a round before engaging the threat.

However you should only carry how you feel comfortable carrying, but if you don't feel comfortable carrying the glock they way it was meant to be, then find a different gun.

It's that easy........

Ragnar Danneskjold
January 3, 2008, 11:49 PM
You should carry your weapon the same way all the time. If you're not comfortable carrying a weapon that has no safety and a light trigger with a round chambered, just find another weapon. There are hundreds of choices out there for carry weapons. Just find a weapon with a safety, or a heavy DA trigger and carry that chambered all the time. Don't buy a Glock and then hate/not use the way it's supposed to be carried. That's stupid, just find a new weapon and carry it how it's designed.

Tully M. Pick
January 3, 2008, 11:57 PM
I'd bet my money, that atleast 7 outta 10 times you would forget to chamber a round before engaging the threat.

I'm your huckleberry. All of your money, or just some of it?

neby98
January 4, 2008, 12:08 AM
I like 500 dollar paper weights as much as the next guy.... wait no I don't.

Constantine-p89
January 4, 2008, 12:14 AM
Glock or cocked locked and ready to rock, lol

Harley Quinn
January 4, 2008, 07:08 AM
I carry it the way I want and I practise putting one in the chamber right out of the get go...So if one was in there it would be out and the next one in. It is a normal practise routine. I shoot a lot and this is the best way for this particular shooter to be carried, they are a accident waiting to happen. If I was an active LEO I'd carry it the same way around the house and at work it would have one in the chamber, or not...:what:

The folks who are giving advise need to worry about themselves and wonder why they feel so insecure in the way someone else, feels secure with carrying a pistol. I own and shoot many Glocks. Your advise falls on deaf ears.

:neener:

Mad Magyar
January 4, 2008, 07:42 AM
i disagree, its not as if Im barney fife and have to fumble it out of my shirt pocket. I can draw my glock and chamber a live round in less than 2 seconds if needed...........Like I said earlier, IF i am entering a hostile situation I take prior actions.............



That's telling them....:)
A uniformed officer is rarely attacked suddenly, where a civilian might be. The ol'ambush theory once again....:eek:
You have it backwards....You need to view the FBI Uniform Crime Report the past 30 yrs for data concerning LEO's and shooting incidents....If you're ambushed, it doesn't make any difference if you're in Condition 1 or 3....:)
BTW, if you happened to be in a position where a close encounter led to your weapon being relieved; where are you better off? M. Ayoob's account of LEO's being shot with their own weapons that are in readiness condition makes you think about it.....
All these "paperweight" retorts really are getting old...This is about as fallacious as saying "Condition 1 is an Accident waiting to Happen!"

NCHornet
January 4, 2008, 09:39 AM
The OP is getting defensive in his stance. Don't ask for opinions if you can't take it. The majority of all the responses have meant well in trying to make you think. For the ones "Who practice loading a round while drawing" do you have someone shooting live rounds back at you when you train? What if your weak hand becomes disabled, how fast can you rack a round, or can you? If you carry a Glock in a proper holster ( I prefer the Bianchi Carry Loc) and you practice proper gun handling it is impossible that the gun will fire. No such thing as a AD, just ND's!!!! The comment " if you don't feel comfortable carrying a live Glock, then choose another weapon or receive proper training" is a very truthful statement, although hard to swallow. I better choice might be the saftey by Comelli, spelling ?, at least with this it can be disengaged with your primary hand. I believe if you will stop the defensive attitude and realize some of us have been around the block a time or two and have received far more training than you, we really are trying to help you, not hurt you.
NCH

DrLaw
January 4, 2008, 09:45 AM
I don't own a Glock, but I have shot them. I have a couple other semi-autos, including a striker-fired. I used to keep them loaded. Never had an accident. Always wondered if I would, but I think that made me more careful with them.
I would not hesitate to keep a round in a Glock - but I would always be careful.

The Doc is out now. :cool:

Riss
January 4, 2008, 10:20 AM
The Glock thing has always had me at odds a little. I carry one at work, 15 years, always loaded, has to be. Have carried a Smith 640 5 shot as my personal carry gun for 14 years. Recently got the G27 and started out carrying it without one in the chamber. Not sure why, but felt that I needed to. Have since started to keep it loaded all the time.

possum
January 4, 2008, 12:09 PM
no matter what handgun i am carrying there is always a rd in the chamber. i thougth that was the only way too carry.

Mad Magyar
January 4, 2008, 03:21 PM
I feel much "safer" against any accidental discharges as a result...
I realize that Larry's original point dealt with safety...No doubt it is for any ND..However, his underlying theme as I see it has to do with carry. We argue about the various conditions of carry when the best defense you have is yourself. Surviving in a gun-fight scenario IMHO is maybe 50% hardware and 50% hard mental attitude. Let me explain. We argue the merits of speed as flicking a safety or racking a slide when we ought to be more concerned with such things as our holster & ammo e.g. How many pistoleros fail to fire any of their exotic PD ammo? Is an open-holster far more advantegeous than one with straps, retention screws?
On the mental side, if you don't have the will to kill if need be, to protect your life, you have no right to carry a gun, IMHO. I know of some who strictly carry for bluff/deterrent sake and wouldn't fire if their life was on the line...
If you examine anecdotal transcripts of LEO's involved in shootings, some hesitated and some purposely avoided the K-Zone...One can surmise the reasons...
My point. We dwell much too long on carry Condition when there are a vast number of other variables that enter into play....:)

Landor
January 4, 2008, 03:48 PM
you guys who keep loading and loading your guns (answers 3 and 4) need to be careful. You are touching your gun a lot more than usual.

DFW1911
January 4, 2008, 04:07 PM
There's another practical reason for carrying w/ one in the chamber: suppose one of your hands / arms is being used to fend of a BG and / or injured in the course of doing so, thereby rendering it useless?

If you're holding off someone who's armed with, say, a Karambit and they're cutting your arm and doing their best to get to your core, you're not going to be able to chamber a round, but you might just be able to draw and fire if you have a round chambered.

I understand where the OP is coming from and to each his own.

Just my $.02

Take care,
DFW1911

Rock
January 4, 2008, 04:14 PM
larry24

i disagree, its not as if Im barney fife and have to fumble it out of my shirt pocket. I can draw my glock and chamber a live round in less than 2 seconds if needed...

Here's the difference, I can draw my gun and empty, or nearly empty a mag in 2 seconds into a target depending on the gun I am shooting.

Landor
January 4, 2008, 04:27 PM
Larry24

i disagree, its not as if Im barney fife and have to fumble it out of my shirt pocket. I can draw my glock and chamber a live round in less than 2 seconds if needed...........Like I said earlier, IF i am entering a hostile situation I take prior actions.............

I cant' think of very many scenarios of where I wouldn't have a chance to load a round if needed.........Onviously for law enforcement, military, etc.....You ALWAYS need a round in the chamber.


From the Ayoob files
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_167_28/ai_110457294


In the Southwest, a well-intentioned good guy who was apparently a little ambivalent about his choice, decided to carry a gun. He purchased a Glock 23 and kept it in a fanny pack, loaded with a magazine of .40 S&W training ammunition but with nothing in the chamber.

The day came when he was faced with armed robbers. He grabbed the Glock out of the fanny pack and tried to chamber a round. but fumbled with the slide and jammed his pistol. The robbers shot him down. He survived--and sued Glock, Incorporated.

A man not confident enough in his ability to carry a chamber-loaded semiautomatic pistol is better served with a revolver. Operating the slide before firing is a complex psycho-motor skill of the kind that does not survive stress well, and it's normally a two-handed operation. The history of gunfighting shows us at least half the time, we will fire our handgun one-handed when attacked by surprise. The gun must be in a condition that allows one-handed operation.

DPris
January 4, 2008, 04:29 PM
Since this is one of the Eternally Revolving Gunboard Questions, my vote would be for those who are afraid to carry a round in the chamber to leave it empty, and everybody else carried fully loaded & ready to go.

If you're afraid of a loaded gun, you're just looking for re-inforcement for your empty-chamber position, and you'll disregard the majority opinion anyway.
Otherwise, this mummified subject only serves to stir up heated air as both sides continue to try to convince the other. :)
The best answer to the Loaded/Unloaded Chamber question is this:

Do what you want with your gun (you will, anyway), it's your life & your problem.:) If you're afraid to carry a fully loaded gun, don't.
Denis

Harley Quinn
January 4, 2008, 05:13 PM
Fear is not the thing with civilian carry it is total responsibilty for others and your own self as a rule. Most who carry are not going to get into a shoot out as a general rule for they will not subject themselves to that stress. They are simply not trained to do that and for those who think different than that are really just kidding themselves.

Selfless ego is what it is all about and most are not like that. If they were they would not be thinking about I can unload into an assaliant and empty my firearm. If you realized how foolish you sound, to others who have been there and done it, and now are retired, but still carry. You would just shut up :uhoh:

So many things to think about and yourself is not one of them. How about the others that are in the zone of fire and your unloading of your weapon and background. Silly to say the least. Down and out stupid is more like it.:banghead: Are you going to yell to your children to get down and your mother or wife to hit the ground while you are blazing away :eek:

Ignorence is all I see being mentioned of late.

:(

leadcounsel
January 4, 2008, 05:23 PM
When you NEED a gun for defense, you probably don't have time to rack the slide so it's important to carry loaded so all you have to do is draw, aim and shoot. To illustrate this, there is a scene in Collateral where Tom Cruise confronts two other bad guys in the alley. In one motion he draws and shoots both. This is sorta how I envision the most likely self defense shooting: you are confronted by one or more aggressors at close distance who are threatening your life and you have a fraction of a second to draw and shoot.

One other thought, imagine if you are unable to use both arms, you would be unable to safely chamber the round quickly. You could be tackled or grabbed by a person or multiple attackers, you could be attacked by a vicious dog that grabs your arm, or you could be shot, stabbed, or injured in one arm (for instance an attacker hits you with a bat unexpectedly or pushes you down a flight of stairs to gain surprise and it breaks your arm/wrist).

I was nervous about keeping a round in the chamber in my Glock for a long time, but got over it. To carry chambered, you MUST have a quality tight fitting holster (leather or kydex) made for the Glock so the trigger has NO chance of being tugged at by clothing or something else.

If this still makes you nervous, I would recommend getting a gun similar to a Glock but with additional safety of a grip safety, such as the XD. I do like that feature on the XD.

Having the gun loaded sometimes and not loaded other times is a VERY dangerous habit. When you DO need it, are you SURE it's loaded???? As we say in the Army, train how you would fight and don't just go through the motions. If you're too concerned with carrying a loaded Glock, select a different gun that makes you feel safe carrying loaded.

Further, from a LEGAL standpoint, you are only allowed to shoot someone in self defense if your life is in immediate danger. I could easily craft an argument to make you look like the situation wasn't imminent if you are "racking your slide going looking for trouble" vs. just drawing and shooting. "Sir, if you thought you'd need your gun and intentionally racked a bullet for this particular area, isn't it true you went looking for trouble" line of questioning.

Omega
January 4, 2008, 05:29 PM
i disagree, its not as if Im barney fife and have to fumble it out of my shirt pocket. I can draw my glock and chamber a live round in less than 2 seconds if needed...........

With summer clothes I can draw and make 2 shots in less than 2 seconds and I don't think this is fast enough...

DPris
January 4, 2008, 05:51 PM
Harley,
Not sure if your post was directed at me or not (in fact, I'm not even sure what you were trying to say), but if it was, my statement remains unchanged:

If you are afraid to carry a chambered round in your defensive pistol, don't. Pure & simple. :)
Asking for justification on gun forums will not solve your problem.

Denis

Harley Quinn
January 4, 2008, 07:51 PM
I have no problem with what I do and have done for a very long time. Your thoughts are yours and mine are mine, gun forums have to many that think they are justified in what they run off at the mouth about, and do.

The cowboys who survived carried one round empty for a very good reason, self defense. You are confusing self with others. If I was carring a gun for duty it would be a different pistol than a Glock I think. More are realizing it and are changing away from them, it seems. Glocks like many other guns are more dangerous to the user than they should be. Similar to the amount of accidentals that happened with the revolver and many depts went to taking care of that and made them double action only.

I feel the way I do in the face of over 80% who feel the other way LOL..
As I mentioned fear has nothing to do with it. Responisible actions for an unsafe weapon that I like. So I choose to do it this way. If it was only and always in a holster it would be a different situation, maybe...

I'll also add this, when in the Military (Corps) "brig chasing" we never had a round in the chamber. Sometimes the mag was not even in the gun. It may still be that way but I don't know. If anyone else knows that would be enlighting for us. I would like to know about it anyway. Leadcounsel, that is one dumb statement LOL...

:neener:

DPris
January 4, 2008, 09:03 PM
Harley,
You're rambling a bit, but it stills boils down to the same thing.
If you don't want to carry a chambered round, don't do it. :)
It's pointless for the minority to continually ask this question on a regular basis on the gunboards. I'd guestimate 95% of those who do are just looking for reinforcement with a decision they've already made, and the rest are asking because they genuinely don't know & want to know.

It's entirely your life, I don't care what you do with it as long as you don't cause a problem for others, I'm not going to waste my time or anybody else's in trying to convince the original poster or you to carry your pistol in any particular fashion, and my original statement still stands. :)
If a loaded chamber scares you, don't load the chamber.
Pretty simple. No need for 20 pages of arguments in both directions. :)
Denis

smooth operator
January 4, 2008, 09:12 PM
I carry a G 26 with 1 in the chamber. I use a holster that covers the trigger guard completely. I would not dream of carrying a firearm that's not completely ready to go. That being said I never put my finger in the trigger guard until I'm ready to shoot. I have that in mind every time I pick it up.
:)

Charles S
January 4, 2008, 09:29 PM
The ol'ambush theory once again....
You have it backwards....You need to view the FBI Uniform Crime Report the past 30 yrs for data concerning LEO's and shooting incidents....If you're ambushed, it doesn't make any difference if you're in Condition 1 or 3....
BTW, if you happened to be in a position where a close encounter led to your weapon being relieved; where are you better off? M. Ayoob's account of LEO's being shot with their own weapons that are in readiness condition makes you think about it.....
All these "paperweight" retorts really are getting old...This is about as fallacious as saying "Condition 1 is an Accident waiting to Happen!"

And then the opinion of a real expert.

KILLING SACRED COWS

Some COMBAT TRUTHS ignored in most gun schools.

The fight will be what the fight will be. Period.

If you are one of those guys' whose proactive fight will be solved by a 5 shot snubby revolver with no reload available, great for you. If you do not get one of those fights, and all you have is a snubby 5 shot, you will wish you were carrying something else. Simple.

Force on force is as close as you can get to a real gunfight. Is it a real gunfight? No. You want to know what that is all about, go to a Crip/Blood neighborhood in L.A. wearing a KKK outfit, or to some of the places we hang out at in South America. You will find out. If you don't want to do that, FOF is your only test.

What we have learned from FOF (and Gunfights because some of our guys have actually shot for blood).

Fights are either ambushes or reaction to ambush. If you can guarantee 100% 24/7/365 that all your fights will be ambushes because you eat live and breathe in condition orange all the time, then go practice your marksmanship and don't worry about anything else. But I would ask if you are so tuned and alert, you can probably avoid all those fights anyway which would make the carry of ANY weapon unnecessary.

If you agree that at least 50% of the time (perhaps more) you will be reacting to the ambush, then what we teach here should make sense to you. Too much range training in search of marksmanship is like too much kata in search of visual appeal. Both drive you away from combat truth.

When you are reacting to ambush, standing still and trying to out-draw and out-marksman the other guy will simply get you shot. I defy anyone to show me otherwise at a FOF session.

When you realize you have to move dynamically off the x or get shot, we move away from range-based marksmanship to what is adequate marksmanship. Marksmanship on a paper, cardboard, or steel is all well and good and easy to pull off on a sterile range where you are in no danger. Its another thing altogether when you are being shot at.

Hit ratio? I will say that most shots hit. Once the guys get used to "letting go" of old range habits, the ratio improves. Think you can guarantee 100% hits by standing still? Great. Do it with out getting shot by the other guy when he has started the fight. Show me against a man who is trying to hit you, don't just tell me what you can do on a target.

Do you miss? Yes you do. It is inevitable. Don't want to miss? Too bad. Again, show me you can do this in a reactive fight (you don't get to start early).

Do your hits go to peripheral areas like hands, arms and legs? Yes they do. If this is the trade off for you NOT getting shot it sounds like a fine deal to me. Again...if you have a better way, show me in a live FOF drill with an uncoop opponent trying to shoot you.

If your hits go to peripheral areas, you will need to keep shooting until the bad guy has had enough, physically succumbs to the damage, or you hit a vital area. If you can do this with 5 shots, again...great for you. Now do it with a 200 pound MMA fighter running right at you from 5 yards fully intent on knocking your block off with a tire iron. What's that? It affects your flash sight picture a little bit when you have to haul ass away from him? Yes...we know that.

The other thing is that Americans are some of the toughest and biggest people on earth. I have seen guys get hit in the chest wioth just about every type of SD caliber out there and still keep fighting. I know of a case where it was a shotgun slug no less! If you give him your best five and he is not impressed what will you do? Reload while running away? Do you train that?

Some of you say "Is spraying fifteen plus rounds around as good as shooting five rounds and accomplishing the same results.?" Again, taking into consideration the difficulty in stopping an angry shooting American, and hitting him while you yourself are getting shot at, I would ask that you show me how you do this.

Are we assuming that one hit = one stop? If that is the case, best of luck to you.

"Where are the other ten plus rounds? In the bad guys also or through a window, wall and into an innocent victim?"

Choose right now.

1). Guarantee all your rounds will always hit what you aim at, but you also get hit with the bad guy's rounds. You will be shot, and maybe injured or dead, but you will be liability free.

Or

2). Do your best, but accept that some of your shots may not only over-penetrate, but not even hit the bad guy...but you will not be hit by his bullets. But you may incur some legal problems due to your gunfire (MAY not SHALL).

Pick now. But talk is cheap. Show me you can back up your choice 100%, 24/7/365 in a force on force drill.

Listen guys...I think my staff and I are pretty good shots. We get to shoot all the time. We have run probably close to 1000 FOF students to date, and none of them have been able to replicate the marksmanship they were so proud of at the range under these circumstances. I know full well that none of us is a superman and all of us are liable to the dynamics of the fight.

That is why I carry a Glock 22 with a couple of extra magazines and train in stress-proof gun handling drills, and shooting while exploding off the X. I like snubbies, but selecting a 5 or 6 shot revolver in today's world is like choosing a lever action rifle when you have FALs and AKs in volume. You can make them work if everything is working for you. But if things are not working for you, you will be screwed. So do you feel lucky?

Bold for emphasis.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=4050171&postcount=63

varoadking
January 4, 2008, 09:58 PM
If you aren't comfortable with keeping a round chambered in your Glock, then the Glock is not the correct weapon for you.

Word...

Harley Quinn
January 4, 2008, 10:00 PM
Denis,
I believe we are on the same page in a funny sort of way. So, yes I agree those that need to get support are asking for it. Those who don't need it don't care what others think. Which is where you and I are at. :)

I for some reason have always liked the Glock even though I have felt it lacks good safety features. It is no more dangerous than a revolver IMHO. Keeping ones finger off the trigger is very important for sure. When hunting I keep it in the same condition I have mentioned. I feel it is safer that way for others.

I have been on hunting trips that are horrible regarding safety and it is very bad and most of them are NRA members and know better. Usually the Glock is a third gun or a 2nd if I have a heavy revolver for the primary. Yes, I carry numerous weapons on me and always did when I was an active LEO. I go to a gun range a lot several accidentals at the location... I saw a hit on a table and asked about it, no one knew.

But many said, I'll bet it was a Glock :D Funny the amount out there that don't like it as a weapon yet it is very popular. Some mention monetary reasons I just like the way it shoots over and over and over and over.

I play at Martial arts a lot one of the things I have learned is move and cover or strike. So it is similar with a firearm most who are seeking cover are not going to be a problem many figure. In the service they teach you to seek cover and while doing that there is plenty of time to get to the shooter if you need it. Nice talking to you...Good luck...I am very secure in what I believe and you are in your beliefs that is good.

So leadcounsel how is your Bertta 10 mm project coming along;)
:)

DPris
January 4, 2008, 10:07 PM
:D

And a Happy New Year!

Denis

TBT
January 4, 2008, 10:16 PM
IF you need it, you need it with a round loaded and ready to go. IF you do not feel safe with a round loaded, then get another gun to carry.

Absolutely.

gym
January 4, 2008, 10:48 PM
Imo, every weapon should be ready to fire, when the trigger is pulled, call me old fashioned, if you have a dbl action gun chamber a round and leave the safty off, use the decocker, again my opinion, carried a Walther like that for 15years, the first da trigger pull is substancial on most dbl action weapons, like 20 lbs, if you really are afraid then use the safty but learn how to take it off safe on the way out, Glocks should be carried ready to fire chambered at all times or why bother, get a revolver. If you have a name brand holster, it blocks the trigger when you pull it out, and your finger should be along the frame well below the slide, like you are pointing, gl

LightEmUp
January 4, 2008, 10:49 PM
When SHTF what would you rather have?

Bazooka Joe71
January 4, 2008, 10:52 PM
If you aren't comfortable with keeping a round chambered in your Glock, then the Glock is not the correct weapon for you.

Yep, thats why I like me a thumb safety.;)

When SHTF what would you rather have?


A rifle.

351 WINCHESTER
January 4, 2008, 11:00 PM
I don't own a glock and never will. If I did I would have the ny trigger installed and it would only have a round chambered while in a secure holster. Glocks are an accident waiting to happen. There have probably been more a/d with glocks than any other weapon.

Jim_M
January 5, 2008, 12:02 AM
Apparently some posters on this thread should NOT OWN OR HANDLE ANY FIREARMS.

Mad Magyar
January 5, 2008, 10:19 AM
That is why I carry a Glock 22 with a couple of extra magazines and train in stress-proof gun handling drills, and shooting while exploding off the X.
Spoken like a true "Warrior"....Like, what else should PD trainer say? Many of us train this way, but has nothing to do with this discussion.
Let's take Clint Smith for a moment, since we are all name-dropping...Regardless of his carry & ammo requirements, he stresses that "speed" isn't the prime factor; "No stop-watches in a Gun Fight:eek:"....
Anyway, like it's been mentioned: to each their own....My thoughts entering into the fray were not against the Glock since I view it no differently than carrying any DAO firearm, yes one in the chamber...But, on ultimate chamber decisions....:)
BTW, this thought of the totally surprised "ambush" and the crazed Moros with their machetes attacking our limbs are alive & well. My previous posts are well-stated in this regard....Guess what? The evidence/data does not support it in the civilian world, wars excluded....:)

tsuehpsyde
January 5, 2008, 10:50 AM
My question is, if it were a different handgun, would you keep one in the chamber or no? Does this "I cock it when I need it" mentality carry over to all pistols, or is this a comfort things specific to Glocks?

gym
January 5, 2008, 11:12 AM
How do you know when you need it. My experiance with half a dozen situations over almost 4 decades of carrying a handgun, is that I didn't see what was happening until the last second, or not at all. The logic of waiting to see a threat is rediculous unless the threat is about to happen to someone else. Like in the movies, when the guy sees the perp in the store survellience mirror about to pounce on the clerk. That isn't the way it happens, there is no warning, and usually the guy is already holding his weapon, or pointing it in your general direction. At that point you still have one or two seconds, to evaluate and decide if you are going to draw and fire, or leave your fate up to a higher power. You sure as hell don't have time to add another thing to the list of decisions you are going to make, which may change your life forever. I get the feeling that many folks carry guns because they are allowed by thier state, and get a false sense of security from doing so. You better be able to make the correct decision if the time ever comes, or you may regret it or not even have time to regret it, just my opinion, forget data, when the crap hits the fan, and a guy puts a gun to your car window at night, it's dark, you can't see worth a dam, and the other guy is coming around to open your door, what do you do, think about it, that's the way it happens, you don't see it coming.

NCHornet
January 5, 2008, 11:52 AM
I don't own a glock and never will. If I did I would have the ny trigger installed and it would only have a round chambered while in a secure holster. Glocks are an accident waiting to happen. There have probably been more a/d with glocks than any other weapon.


You're right you don't need a Glock you don't need any gun!! What you need is proper training, period. I get so tired of the Glock bashers, I ahve said as well as others with proper gun handling it impossible for a Glock to fire.
NCH

Harley Quinn
January 5, 2008, 12:06 PM
Making a statement about having a heavier trigger is not a bash in my opinion.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_11_50/ai_n6209982

It is common knowledge that most DA have a pretty good trigger pull 8 lbs or more is generally considered correct, so if you have a Glock with a 3.5 pound pull and are shooting target that is one thing but to have the same as a carry gun it is light and so is 5 pounds.

The above link explains some struff about trigger pull but the pull of the trigger is based on what it takes a mechanical device which tests weight to pull, not the human brain with a finger to gage it right or wrong.

Squeezing the trigger is what they recommend and what you learn, to squeeze it crisply is the best way to go.

MAURICE
January 6, 2008, 04:23 AM
I carry my G17 either in an OWB leather holster, or in a shoulder rig. Always a round in the chamber. At night I keep it loaded in the shoulder rig hanging off my the bathroom door in my bedroom. This way I have to be somewhat alert and up and out of bed to find it and get it out of the holster. FWIW, just me and my brother in our apartment. No kids to get their hands on it.

No matter if I am at home or out and about the weapon is loaded. All the time. You never know when you are entering a hostile situation. No matter how many times you have run to the corner store and no matter how comfortable with it, there is always the possibility of someone wanting to hurt you. No offense to the anyone, I understand what you mean. IMHO, every situation can turn hostile.

Harley Quinn
January 6, 2008, 03:02 PM
Maurice, You are in open carry country and the holsters that are available are good and many wear them. In CCW carry I believe the way I do it is best. If I was in your situation, I'd do the same thing.
:)

Harley Quinn
January 6, 2008, 03:04 PM
The amount of posting about chambered or not is really interesting how the folks want you to carry around a pistol or revolver. In the service it is not loaded all the time and they are at war. LOL

Firepower!
January 6, 2008, 04:38 PM
Sorry but I dont agree with the majority. I only keep live round when going out. Never keep live in chamber. It can cause accidents. I live in worlds most dangerous place (Pakistan Tribal Areas) and even I dont keep one in. Not even my Ak is loaded or any other weapon. With guards they are ordered to but when on duty.

1 LT MPC
January 6, 2008, 09:26 PM
[QUOTE][The logic of waiting to see a threat is rediculous unless the threat is about to happen to someone else. /QUOTE]
Ever hear of "situational awareness"?

gym
January 6, 2008, 10:43 PM
How so Firepower, unless you pull the trigger it really shouldn't go off, and what if there was a threat within, what then, maybe the military is different, because you have safe zones, and you feel realy safe, although I never did in the late 60's, but different topic.Let me ask you this, do the Pakistani's feel the same way. very civil goings on , maybe because you guys can see something coming from 20 miles away. There are places I go on a daily basis, where the people aren't as civil, but that's just me. No offense

denfoote
January 6, 2008, 11:17 PM
Carrying a gun without a chambered round is like carrying a stick with a greased up hand.
Both are useless!!

Firepower!
January 7, 2008, 09:29 AM
When you have chambered round you better be sure that threat is high. Otherwise you are just doing so cause you want to be cool or something. In the US I can only imagine a few places where one is justified in having live round. Or unless, I repeat, you are a body guard.

Bazooka Joe71
January 7, 2008, 12:50 PM
Otherwise you are just doing so cause you want to be cool or something

That's it.:rolleyes:

XDKingslayer
January 7, 2008, 01:16 PM
larry24, I voted to have a live round in the chamber because that is how I carry.

I'm not going to acost how you chose to carry, but I will say this. I had the same concerns when I got my XD. It's the first plastic pistol I have owned and it also doesn't have a manual safety. I was concerned about and AD just like you.

What I did was carry the gun around without one in the chamber, but I did have the weapon cocked. This would tell me if the gun was fired on an empty chamber. I did much more than I would usually do to test this. Dropping it, throwing it in the glove box, jumping around wiggling around, jogging, you name it.

It never fired.

You just need to do something like this to get your trust up in your firearm. Nothing wrong with that. But you'll see that it's safe in time.

Geronimo45
January 8, 2008, 02:18 PM
Carry as you please. You want to carry with a round in chamber, mag topped off? Fine and dandy. Think that's 'Modern Technique'. Want to carry with no round in the chamber, full mag? IIRC, this was the way the 1911 was originally carried, for many years. Fairbairn's folk were instructed to pin down all their safeties and simply rack the slide before firing. This is probably the safest technique, with the least risk of AD/ND of any method, applicable for any repeating handgun. Carrying with one in the chamber/under the hammer is not a good idea for some very old or poorly made handguns. Most modern handguns are drop-safe. Glock is especially so. It's safe to carry as long as you remember to be wary of the trigger - especially when reholstering.

Still, carry as you please. There's no sense in claiming a poster has no business with a gun because they don't like the idea of carrying with a loaded chamber. It was perfectly legitimate years ago, and is perfectly usable today. Current dogma is to always carry (a customized 1911) in a strong-side belt holster with a loaded chamber with a fully loaded magazine, with enough spares to handle the Nakatomi Building. Doesn't mean that it's the only way to carry.

Landor
January 8, 2008, 02:34 PM
Carry as you please. You want to carry with a round in chamber, mag topped off? Fine and dandy. Think that's 'Modern Technique'. Want to carry with no round in the chamber, full mag? IIRC, this was the way the 1911 was originally carried, for many years. Fairbairn's folk were instructed to pin down all their safeties and simply rack the slide before firing. This is probably the safest technique, with the least risk of AD/ND of any method, applicable for any repeating handgun. Carrying with one in the chamber/under the hammer is not a good idea for some very old or poorly made handguns. Most modern handguns are drop-safe. Glock is especially so. It's safe to carry as long as you remember to be wary of the trigger - especially when reholstering.

Still, carry as you please. There's no sense in claiming a poster has no business with a gun because they don't like the idea of carrying with a loaded chamber. It was perfectly legitimate years ago, and is perfectly usable today. Current dogma is to always carry (a customized 1911) in a strong-side belt holster with a loaded chamber with a fully loaded magazine, with enough spares to handle the Nakatomi Building. Doesn't mean that it's the only way to carry.



If we do this then we would not have anything to argue about.. :neener:

Geronimo45
January 8, 2008, 02:38 PM
If we do this then we would not have anything to argue about..
Nah. We can still argue the eternal 9mm vs .45. Or 7.62x39 vs 5.56x45, Coke vs Pepsi, Elizabeth Taylor vs Ava Gardner, Frank Sinatra vs Bing Crosby...

GeorgiaGlocker
January 8, 2008, 06:20 PM
My Glocks are always loaded, always ready.

SDG
January 8, 2008, 06:43 PM
For those of you who are not comfortable carrying a chambered Glock or similar firearm, how do you feel about carrying a chambered DA/SA pistol that has a 12 pound trigger for the first round?

rcmodel
January 8, 2008, 06:52 PM
12 pounds and very Long is far different then 5 1/2 pounds & very Short!

How would you feel about carrying a 5 1/2 pound Series-80 1911, cocked with the thumb safety off?

That's a much better comparison then any DA revolver.

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j219/rcmodel/KTOG/1224.gif
rcmodel

SDG
January 8, 2008, 06:54 PM
I didn't mean a DA revolver. I meant something like a Walther that has an 11-12 lb trigger if you don't have the gun cocked. After the first shot it is around 5 lbs - like the Glock

rcmodel
January 8, 2008, 06:59 PM
I see!
I misunderstood your question.

I feel perfectly safe stuffing a loaded SIG or S&W or PPK auto in my pants and going about my business. I can hold the hammer down with my thumb while doing the stuffing with my thumb.

I wouldn't stuff a loaded Glock down my pants on a bet!

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j219/rcmodel/KTOG/1224.gif
rcmodel

Six O'clock Tactical
January 8, 2008, 07:15 PM
I voted never, though im more of a revolver man anyhow so I suppose im a bit out of my element. Im not familiar with glocks but I assume theyre striker pin guns and not hammer guns...

I suppose id have one in the chamber if I could manually thumb the hammer forward, but engineering and machining are not flawless things and a sprung back pin thats all ready to go and ruin someones day seems a bit of a gamble to me. Like I read on one post, "low risk, high consequences". Having a weapon AD (or ND) in public is huge, and I actually think id rather rack the slide than take that chance. (however minute it may be)

FranklyTodd
January 8, 2008, 08:33 PM
Posted my review of the Glock manual safety (which makes me comfortable carrying one in the chamber) over here: http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=807594&referrerid=87862

To each his own!

Seven For Sure
January 8, 2008, 09:08 PM
Always carry with one in the pipe.

Green Lantern
January 8, 2008, 09:08 PM
G19, CCW and nightstand gun. Always one in the pipe.

Harley Quinn
January 9, 2008, 01:29 AM
rcmodel...
That is one of my problems with The glock and carrying like I do in a very fine dearskin hide holster that I make. The firearm is slid right in front on the right side pointed towards the main man thing. So I leave it empty chamber full mag, the trigger pulled so it is hammer down. I feel the trigger, it is in a position close to the grip position and I know it is empty, the way I draw and rack and fire is pretty awesome I have been told. I practice it all the time. I don't have a gut, so it works real well.

:)

GeorgiaGlocker
January 9, 2008, 07:14 PM
So many unchambered? Ever heard of the four basic rules of firearm safety?

SDG
January 9, 2008, 09:49 PM
So many unchambered? Ever heard of the four basic rules of firearm safety?

I am sure that they have heard of them. Most probably even practice them very diligently. The issue isn't with the 4 rules, and the issue isn't with the quality of the gun. I would bet that most of the non-chambered group is convinced that the gun isn't going to go off by itself.

The issue is the human factor. Humans are fallible, plain and simple. I know, train, train, train. And that is all well and good. It will reduce your chances of doing something stupid a great deal. But the issue is not with the 99.9% of the time that you are safe. The issue is with the .1% of the time that you do something stupid. And during that .1% it is not such a bad idea to have taken just a little extra precaution to make sure that a ND doesn't ruin the rest of your life.

On a recent poll, 36% of us have had a negligent discharge. We practice but it hasn't made us perfect.

Firepower!
January 10, 2008, 08:22 AM
Well, if you live in a hostile area then chamber one always. Otherwise my advice is dont, on Glock, because it can lead to accidental fire. If the question was for Beretta or similar with safety pistol- I would probably lean toward chambering one- given that its you primary side arm. I have load of them and it will be hard for me to remember which I have chambered and which is chambered by my guard!!!

GeorgiaGlocker
January 10, 2008, 11:12 AM
It is a personal choice. I choose to carry my Glocks chambered. Chances are that if anyone is ever faced with a life or death situation they will have only a few seconds to react. Will they think about releasing that trigger safety if their firearm has one? I don't know. With my Glock, I don't have to take that into consideration.

Harley Quinn
January 10, 2008, 02:26 PM
I see the chambered are leading by a huge margin. I have seen many here who are/were in the service who know when you can have one in the chamber or not.
That is the way it is in the real world, in the riots of LA back in the 60's and 70's the Guard were allowed to have bullets (in the Mag) the Police were always chambered (of course) but others were not. As I have mentioned even when going into a situation (service) or brig chasing none were in the chamber until needed.:uhoh:

So it does not seem out of whack considering the difference in attitude between the folks who have fought for a living and those that just carry for their own self. Rules are needed and usually the ones who are providing the law are not the law breakers. One of the big arguments by the liberals shown here in this thread, (Minutemen have found that out the hard way), is really one of the reasons they are worried about untrained folks with a firearm running around wanting to act tough.

None in the chamber, is the prudent way to go. IMHO:scrutiny:

stevereno1
January 10, 2008, 03:04 PM
one in the chamber always.

SDG
January 10, 2008, 03:33 PM
Harley,

Not to get too off topic but what are your thoughts on a chambered gun that has a decocker? The first trigger pull is 12 lbs or so. Acceptable?

Harley Quinn
January 10, 2008, 09:13 PM
Harley,

Not to get too off topic but what are your thoughts on a chambered gun that has a decocker? The first trigger pull is 12 lbs or so. Acceptable?
*********************
As a duty weapon, always loaded. I don't think there is any difference still none in the chamber:uhoh: As it pertains to me now:) It would be a lighter trigger pull if I was confronted and you could say at that time it would be more dangerous to the person I just racked one in on. But it is a decocker right? So if my finger is not on the trigger it is safe and decocking would be good. But then I'd have to get it out of the chamber as soon a safe.

BP44
January 10, 2008, 09:23 PM
Yes I am a NEWB but,........ a gun without a bullet chambered is a $500 very crappy club. I hope If I ever get in a gunfight it its with a person who doesnt carry condition 1:rolleyes:

Harley Quinn
January 10, 2008, 09:30 PM
Well let me explain it like this, we carried our hand guns always loaded in LEO and the shot guns or rifles never loaded in the chamber but ready to be racked in. Some officers would sometimes load a shotgun or rifle one in the chamber. But if stopped by a Sgt. and have a weapons check and one is in the chamber of your shotgun or rifle you are getting written up. Might be different now but I don't think so. On a stake-out always in the chamber.

Does that help this discussion any better:uhoh:

lax
January 10, 2008, 09:37 PM
Has anyone who carries a Glock unchambered ever found the trigger tripped at the end of the day?

Coronach
January 10, 2008, 10:37 PM
83% in favor of one of four options. This is what we call "consensus."

Mike :D

Harley Quinn
January 11, 2008, 01:11 AM
Has anyone who carries a Glock unchambered ever found the trigger tripped at the end of the day?

I trip it prior to putting the mag in. It is my key, to know it is in the fired positon, and no round in the chamber:scrutiny:

DPris
January 11, 2008, 01:25 AM
Harley,
I think we all know your position. ;)
This can all go on indefinitely, and undoubtedly will in the future.
There's no point in the debate. Those who are afraid of a fully loaded pistol will take one side, those who know better will take the opposite side.
Neither side is going to change the opinion of the other when minds are already made up. :)
Carry your lifesaver any way you want to, it's your life that's on the line.
Denis

chauncey
January 11, 2008, 02:52 AM
If you plan to carry your pistol in Condition Three (loaded magazine in weapon, no round in chamber) you may be interested in doing some research in a shooting discipline developed by the Israeli Defense Forces (or Mossad, I can't recall which). This discipline is a combination of drawing a holstered weapon and pushing the weapon toward the target while racking the slide and assuming a point-shooting stance.

While I was in the USMC, we commonly carried all weapons in a condition three level of readiness. (I was not in Iraq). Chambering a round without cause was grounds for punishment.

I believe that whatever manner you carry, the most important thing you can do is practice, practice, practice. I would bet that someone who practices consistently with a condition three weapon will consistently outdraw and outshoot someone who does not practice with a condition one (round chambered) weapon.

I practice regularly with a condition three holstered weapon, and commonly carry condition one when I feel the situation dicatates. Again, this is an application of the white/yellow/orange/red threat assessment philosophy. When I am carrying and am white/yellow, or storing the weapon, I go condition three. If I am orange/red, I carry condition one.

I believe the best method for practice is with dummy rounds, in your home, and dry-firing the weapon.

As for pulling the weapon under stress, regardless of your carry method, you need again, to practice. Have your wife attack you and try to draw from a SOB or IWB holster with your weak hand, especially if you have a bum shoulder. good luck. my point being, you can't expect to plan for and overcome every situation in your choice of carry options; more importantly you need to develop and PRACTICE methods that allow you to overcome reasonable scenarios if you need to draw and fire a concealed weapon.

Harley Quinn
January 11, 2008, 01:38 PM
DPris and Chauncey,
I appreciate your information.

As far as the drill and training you mention that is what I mentioned back a few pages, regarding DPris and others about fear, it is not the situation, it is responisible, and it is respectful. Many will argue that fear and respect are the same they arn't. I went through that training also back in the 60s and 70's. Regarding ability to override fear in the face of attack and be able to still perform your job out of the respect you have for the oath you gave to office... LEO

Yes, you are correct about this never ending for to many bone heads are espousing how cool it is to carry and the correct way. Chauncey has mentioned what I have regarding the service.

Enough of this is right. I felt I'd keep at it til someone mentioned a similar item about carry and back up what I have said numerous times, regarding the position of the service (military), so yep. I am done:D:D

Constantine-p89
January 11, 2008, 01:39 PM
A gun without bullets is like a toy without batteries.

GeorgiaGlocker
January 11, 2008, 02:41 PM
You can choose to have your weapon unchambered. But I willing to bet that the bad guy will always have one in the chamber.

Mad Magyar
January 11, 2008, 06:48 PM
There's no point in the debate. Why says, you? Those who are afraid of a fully loaded pistol will take one side, those who know better will take the opposite side.


Denis, you were more eloquent when defending gun writers and their reviews.
Looking over your replies on this & other subjects, you seem to imply that your opinion give some sort of finality on the subject...Give me a break. You go to an expense paid weekend Warrior class & all of sudden you are some authority? It really is sort of juvenile to use emotional laden words, such as "afraid" which you've sprinkled throughout this debate...It's like saying, "I'm more tougher than you" or "My weiner is bigger than yours". You said your peace, but keep coming back with the same sort of babble... Your opinion doesn't carry any more weight than anybody elses.
BTW, you talk about the majority having a consensus...Look over your posts about gun writers & glossy reviews: where is the majority opinion there?:rolleyes: You didn't convince the majority there, did you?:eek:
One last thing. Unless you've been shot at, or fired at another human being; don't question someone's courage, or being "afraid"....

DPris
January 11, 2008, 11:28 PM
Mad,
Evidently caught you on a bad day. :)
My opinion gives finality to nothing, I was largely reacting to Harley's repetitions, pointing out that these ongoing "debates" over whether to carry with a loaded chamber or not will never end, and that it's pointless to continue them.

Not sure who you have me confused with, but I've worked with Ayoob, Farnam, Tueller, Taylor, and others, and I've spent my own money on them. I'm an Air Force Security Police vet, retired career cop, former police firearms instructor, and professional borrower of various types of recreational & defensive firearms.

You do not see me make any claims toward being "an authority", as you put it. I have my experiences, everybody else has theirs, and I won't discount mine because they don't agree with whatever your philosophy is.

Mine tell me quite simply that the defensive tool I carry travels with me to save my life or that of someone close to me should deadly violence ever again be presented to me. As such, and based on making my living with firearms (and not just on the range) for 35 years, I make the following conclusions:
1. Violence is not something you can plan ahead.
2. Violence is not something you can count on avoiding.
3. Violence will not always present rapidly, but it will do so more often than not.
4. Violence will present unexpectedly.
5. Violence may present from any direction.
6. Violence may present so suddenly that you may be injured before you realize what's going on.
7. If I am going to carry a defensive tool to use in protecting myself against violence, that tool must be ready to go out of the holster.
8. I cannot count on having two hands to operate my defensive tool.
9. I understand how my chosen tool works, and while I do respect it, I am not afraid to carry it fully loaded and ready for instant use if needed.
10. I know (and I mean KNOW!) that I will almost certainly have too many other things going on all at once to depend on my ability to remember to chamber a round in the stress and dynamics of a violent encounter.
11. I will not handicap myself by carrying this lifesaving device in any other condition but that of instant readiness.
12. I have personally engaged in a number of situations where I did not have two hands to fiddle with a handgun.
13. Violence may present in an escalating manner, beginning with a hands-on tussle and developing to a point that can only be resolved by the use of the sidearm.
14. During such circumstances, I KNOW that there will be a hell of a lot going on, and I will not risk my life on remembering to get a round chambered.
15. These conclusions are based entirely on my real life experiences.

Eloquent? OK, I've been taking it fairly soft, but I'll lay it out.
Your life is your life. If you choose to carry a deflated life raft & a pump around thinking you're good to go because you have the equipment to rescue yourself along & surely you'll have the time to pump it up, that's your business.
If you are afraid to carry a round chambered, then you do so out of fear. That has nothing whatever to do with respect for anybody or anything. If you are "uncomfortable" carrying a live gun, it's out of fear at some level, whether you admit it or not. This is not saying that anybody who doesn't like a loaded chamber is a sissy. Everybody, and I mean EVERYBODY, has at least a low-grade fear of something or other. It's not a blanket condemnation, and I accused no one here of wearing pink underwear. :)

Military garrison or gate duty regulations have no bearing on this whatever. I carried .38s, M-16s, and M-60 machineguns here & there a long time ago, and I'm very familiar with the military mindset that works to the lowest common denominator. I do not speak for the other branches, but at least our .38s were always fully loaded & ready to go when on duty with a holstered sidearm. There were other considerations with the older 1911s carried by the Army, Marines, and so on, that were addressed administratively in other ways.
Don't take this, incidentally, to imply criticism of any other branch of the armed services, or its members who had to play the cards they were dealt.

I've seen this "empty chamber" overanalysis extended to revolvers with the thought that the carrier would only load his cylinder with three rounds. Nothing under the hammer, just in case the gun were dropped. Nothing in the next two chambers, just in case the gun was wrestled away and the bad guy turned it on its owner. Rationale being that said bad guy would pull the trigger a couple times, hear the two clicks, figure the gun was empty, toss it away, and either run off into the night or just beat the owner to pieces.
Both are...less than realistic, at best.

I do not mean to sound unsympathetic to those who are new to carrying a defensive handgun. It can be scary, and it certainly is a grave responsibility. But, my years in doing so have left me with the conclusions listed above, and my opinion (which is just that, Mad) is that simple is best. If you can learn to understand your chosen weapon, master your fear of it, and carry it ready to go, you've achieved a simple state of readiness that will serve you best over the largest span of potentially life threatening violent encounters that you may find yourself in the middle of. Much as you may wish to discount the idea, many new gun owners ARE afraid of their new firearm, and that's perfectly natural. It takes knowledge, understanding, familiarity, and use to get past that.

If you're nervous about the lack of external safeties on a Glock with a loaded chamber, try another type of pistol that does have an external safety. If you're nervous about a single-action Colt, try any of the quality double-action pistols, with or without an external safety. If a pistol of any type makes you uncomfortable because the second round (if not the first) will leave it cocked, check out a decent double-action revolver that has no safety, but starts out with a long & deliberate trigger pull on every shot, and ends up with the hammer down on every shot.
There are many ways to deal with a fear (however subliminal) of a loaded chamber, not the least of which is also a good quality holster whose construction adds another level of prevention to an accidental discharge.

Yes, you can practice all sorts of contortions & maneuvers to get a round chambered, but all will involve either the use of two hands, which you may not have, or the employment of additional manipulations in coming out of the holster that could require time you may not have. Infinitely simpler to draw a fully loaded pistol that can be accessed one-handed and fired one-handed with no additional complicating operations to get it up & running in a hurry.

You also have me confused with somebody else on the consensus thing. I didn't say that.

In saying all the above, I've laid out what my opinion is, and why it is. I do recognize that not everybody here agrees, and don't expect them to. Nor have I directly attacked anybody (except loosely, with Harley :)) who disagrees. I have not & will not say that if you're afraid of a loaded chamber, you should not own a gun.

Mad,
One last thing, and I hope I'm being eloquent enough for you. I'm not trying to convince anybody here. While I did not mention consensus, it does appear that the majority here seems to favor the loaded chamber. And, I can tell you that in addition to my own experiences, associating with a number of extremely professional instructors who would spit (politely, of course) in your eye if you called them "weekend warriers" to their faces has done nothing to change my opinion of the MOST EFFECTIVE METHOD OF CARRYING THE DEFENSIVE PISTOL on a regular basis. It is not THE ONLY way to carry the pistol, and everybody has to make their own decisions.
Again, you handle your threat management your way, I'll handle mine my way. ;)

Denis

narcorngr
January 11, 2008, 11:48 PM
I think the answer to this question is, would you carry a revolver with an empty chamber. The answer is absolutly not. A glock was designed as a "Safe Action Pistol" and designed to carry fully loaded. Unless you have a safety issue around the home (kids, etc) then this is the way to carry this weapon.

I traveled to Israel this year and trained with various members of the security services there and was astonished to learn that for the most part, Israeli military and Police carry with an empty chamber. They have to use what they call a "slingshot manuver" when they get into a gunfight to chamber a round. Not one person could explain why all but very specialized units carry their guns in this manner.

I know the answer though.. There are a lot of young "kids" carrying guns there. Everyone has an M4 slung over their shoulder, on the bus, in the mall, groups of young girls hanging around the makeup counter in olive drab uniforms with M4s and autos IWB, etc. I guess this reduces to almost zero the potential for an accidental discharge. This shouldn't be a problem though in the hands of a responsible gun owner/operator.

Jesse H
January 12, 2008, 12:02 AM
For folks that choose to carry without one in the pipe, I hope you train to rack that slide with a single, bloody, sweaty, injured hand as well.

angel1216
January 12, 2008, 12:59 AM
my glock 26 is always loaded and ready to go! why carry a gun and use it as a hammer? that's all you're doing when carrying it empty?
And for the 2 seconds experts out there! it takes less than 2 seconds for a BG armed with a knife to stab you from 7 yrds away!

shadowalker
January 12, 2008, 01:12 AM
It simply makes no sense to me to carry a firearm that doesn't have a round in the chamber, kind of like storing your gasoline seperate from your car and only putting it in when you need to go somewhere :).

Plus the 7 yard rule is an average, I can cover a lot more than 7 yards in 2 seconds and a lot of other people can as well, various people have proposed increasing it to the 10-12 yard rule. You also have to consider that even if you identify the target, draw, acquire the target and get good COM hits there can still be 15-30 seconds of fight in the BG.

I don't carry Glocks, but do carry my Sig P229 (decock only) and XDs with one in the chamber, if I cared for Glocks I would carry with one in the chamber.

The BG isn't going to give you a timeout to load a round. It is a big assumption to make to believe (a) that you'll have time to load a round into the chamber, (b) that you have two hands available to do that, or (c) that you'll be able to do it one handed.

DPris
January 12, 2008, 02:14 AM
In line with that, just briefly, I've not only participated in the Tueller Drill (with Tueller), I've put cops through it. That's the one where you start out with your duty sidearm holstered (right out in the open) and the pseudo bad guy standing at what looks like a very safe distance with a pseudo knife. When the whistle blows, the bad guy starts for you, and you try to draw your gun & stop him.
Under just the stress of training, in a sterile & non-threatening environment, I've seen veteran cops NOT be able to get their handgun out of a thumbbreak holster and on target in time to get a click off before they get pseudo stabbed.
That's standing there, knowing what was going to happen, with the gun not covered by concealing clothes, and "ready" for it.
Adding the time & memory requirements under real stress to chamber a round in an auto pistol.... :)

Denis

Rat Finkenstein
January 12, 2008, 02:43 AM
It is simply retarded to carry an empty pistol.

I used to carry a glock 27, and I sold it due to several reasons- the most significant was the heavy and long trigger pull.

I now carry a 1911 with a ~3.5lb trigger cocked and locked.

Harley Quinn
January 12, 2008, 03:43 AM
Well DPris all that information and your arguing makes you seem really suspect. I am a retired LEO, LAPD, Metro 114, guy. So tell me what you know about that group. :D

How many accidentals have you seen, how many doors have you been to and told someone is dead because of a mishandled handgun. Look at what happened by the guy who misfired one in front of a school class full of children LOL...You are becoming pathetic to say the least.

DPris
January 12, 2008, 04:49 AM
Harley,
Not quite sure what you're trying to say.
I've not called you a liar, or any other name, just disagreed with your assertions, and if you're trying to call me one, discussion is ended. :)

Denis

Mad Magyar
January 12, 2008, 11:20 AM
I hope I'm being eloquent enough for you.

That was much better....:)
You know, being at the range yesterday, I observed some State Police doing some drills. Mostly moving, shooting behind barriers, etc...Differences in their physical condition was very apparent...What does this have to do with anything? Just this, there is a whole chain of events beyond having an intitial rd in the chamber that leads to a successful conclusion to a street skirmish. I think you know that. I can give a long list starting with one's physical conditioning, reflexes, mind-set, etc....
PDinstructors use the "ambush" scenario as the most frequent type of confrontation, but statistical data for LEO's & civilians show otherwise.
BTW, I don't know Mr. Tueller, but someone is going to get shot if you try that with me...
Condition 1, 2,3, or whatever has to do with CHOICE, not being afraid as you put it...Labeling #3's in reality is "name-calling", a propaganda technique....Personally, you ought to be rebuked for that...:)

Harley Quinn
January 12, 2008, 03:17 PM
DPris, I just wanted to let you know, fear has nothing to do with it.:D There are many factors involved. Just to set it straight. I am not calling you a liar.

But I am not sure what your motives are to proclaim fear as a factor rather than good responsible training. Most civilian groups and folks are way to afraid as it is for sure. So maybe that is where you are getting this fear thing you are talking about. :confused:

As I explained the ones who are very sharp with the mental phobia's and other such stuff, will explain fear and respect, are not the same. Comes from different parts of the brain right out of the get go :)

Remember the foolish standing to the side down range, and allowing others to shoot at targets that was done (may still be done) not a good responsible way to train. But in the Corps we did a lot of live fire over your head, might explain it. For his sake it was not fear that was the factor either, he had respect for the shooter and a miss by an inch is as good as a mile (miss) he figured.

Others who were voicing their opinion were thinking he might set a bad precedence, not fear, respect for the student and responsible teaching was the factor. IMHO

Edit:
As far as those drills with a knife I played with them also. I have/had a baton on one side and pistol on the other side, the baton comes into play before the pistol, then the pistol. Milliseconds apart, (training) I used a clamshell and no one beat me...LOL I had a loaded one in the chamber also. But as a civilian who is carring for self defense, the way I do it is the best all around I figure. I have been in the minority as far as occupations, for a very long time USMC and LEO...

The " E. Love" shooting in LA was long ago and far away. Not involved. But one of my classmate buddies was. Put several into this lady and retired long after the shooting, good man, also.

The one who went off on a mental stress and retired took it really hard. Such is life.

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=6812819

Regards

DPris
January 12, 2008, 04:36 PM
Mad,
I can't give you exact figures, but I'd suggest that the ambush scenario is infinitely more prevalent among "civilians", and there's good reason to use it with cops.
Police are (or should be) theoretically more attuned to the idea of violence presenting because violence is a semi-regular part of the job, either first-hand in personal arrest encounters, or second-hand in doing the mop up on calls where the complainant has been the victim of violence. Cops are trained to watch out for certain things both on approach and during contacts with the public in a number of situations. The average citizen who doesn't encounter violence in some form on a regular basis is much less likely to see the warning signs or perceive the potential for violence. It's the Cooper Color Code thing, to use a reference. Most "regular" people live much of their lives in White Mode, which is not a criticism, but merely pointing out that they are much more likely to be ambushed by carjackers, muggers, street punks, and so on. Even an elevated degree of situational awareness can't guarantee that you'll never be attacked suddenly, close in, and violently.

One of my old buddies at my last PD shortly after I retired suddenly found himself at the wrong end of a rifle in responding to a dispatched call one day. This was a veteran cop who'd started out his police career in the projects of Philadelphia before moving west to my state & getting hired on at my PD.
He was no rookie, he knew how to approach, he knew the risks involved in ANY call, no matter how innocuous it may sound up front, and in a flash there he was looking down the bore of a bolt-action rifle inside five feet. Without getting into any analysis or criticism, he did make it through the encounter, but left the PD shortly after with recurring psychological problems.

My only point there is to illustrate that ambushes are very real, and if you prepare yourself at least to some degree, mentally & physically, to address the worst you've pretty much got yourself prepared to address the least. And, again, don't forget the situations that start out with a hands-on response and then escalate. :)

Dennis Tueller is a former career cop with the Salt Lake City PD who retired as a lieutenant. For many years he was a firearms instructor both there and for Jeff Cooper at Gunsite. Since leaving SLC, Dennis has worked in contract training, and currently travels as an instructor for Glock. Dennis came up with the Tueller Drill some time ago to demonstrate the actual threat of a knife at what many people would not consider a threatening distance, and it's been a great eye-opener for most who go through it.

Ayoob produced one of his training films back in the mid 80s including the drill at a week-long session I attended here in Utah. Don't know if it's still available, but Dennis is shown on it discussing the drill, there's some footage of some of the guys going through it, and if you can scare up a copy, you can even see my back in one of the scenarios dealing with suicidal people-with-guns. :D
Dennis also used to teach classes locally here, and they were always very professionally done.

Yes, there are many factors involved in a violent encounter beyond just the loaded chamber issue. That's quite obvious. One thought to consider in saying that is the fact that you have little to no control over a number of variables when violence presents. You don't choose the time, you don't choose the place, you don't choose the direction, you don't choose the weather, you don't choose the lighting, you don't choose the number of assailants, you don't choose the speed, you don't choose the type of violence, you don't choose the other weapons involved, you don't choose the number of other people around you, you don't choose the surroundings or the type of terrain you have to work in. You do, however, have the ability to control whether your defensive tool is ready for instant action, and if you choose not to carry it so, then again it boils down to you and your choice.

If you want to wait literally until somebody's five feet away to fully arm your weapon, that's up to you.
One scenario that comes forcefully to mind is the carjacking. Do you honestly think that while sitting in the confines of your car, belted or not, you're going to be able to chamber a round before you get yourself shot?
If your response is that it'll never happen to you, then we're outside the bounds of discussion, since you could equally apply that reasoning to any other form of personal violence. :)

Worst Case Scenario is a major principle in preparing for any critical incident, and it's used every day in government, private sector business, and personal lives. The core of WCS is that if you prepare for the worst (within your abilities and with due consideration of the probabilities), then you'll be better set up to handle most events from there on down.

I'm assuming you're refering to the Tueller Drill when you say somebody would get shot if it was tried with you.
Maybe, maybe not, and while not questioning your personal abilities, remember that the Tueller Drill is conducted in a sterile environment with both sides fully aware and prepared to move.
Essentially, from 7 yards (21 feet) your attacker can have steel in your guts in less than 3 seconds (and as little as 1.5 seconds, depending on size, condition, and motivation). The drill starts with the "cop's" hands shoulder high.
Remember, this is with an exposed duty holster, not a concealed rig.
In such a scenario, you have to factor in both mental and physical reaction times. Your mind has to process the fact that you're under attack, then it has to mobilize your body to react. That can eat up 1-5 seconds right there, depending on how fast your mind processes the picture.

In real life, you're not likely to be standing there waiting for the whistle to blow. You may be in very familiar territory (which often instills a sense of "can't happen here"), doing things you've done a thousand times before with no negative results, in broad daylight, and carrying a bag, a briefcase, pushing a shopping cart, talking to your wife, on your cell phone, and so on. There are many things that cut into your reaction time, and Tueller developed his drill just to illustrate how far away a man with a knife can be a threat. It wasn't intended to specifically train for such an ocurrance, nor was it intended to set a milestone for speed in getting out of the holster.
Main point being that adding the complicating process of getting a round chambered to a violent encounter may require time (in the open) and/or freedom of movement (carjacking) that you simply won't have.

Carrying in whichever condition certainly is a matter of choice.
Previous statements still stand. :)

Denis

chauncey
January 19, 2008, 12:33 AM
"For folks that choose to carry without one in the pipe, I hope you train to rack that slide with a single, bloody, sweaty, injured hand as well."

You are correct, sir...haha!

Boot heels, door jambs, and any solid surface with a sharp edge will work well.

That isn't the real challenge. Take your weak hand, and pull the pistol out of your strong-side holster. Now that's your challenge, and not specific to a condition three weapon.

wuchak
January 19, 2008, 10:09 AM
One in the chamber. Carrying without the gun ready to go bang is like airport security. It would would make me "feel" safer without actually making me so. I can understand some people not being comfortable with one in the chamber of a striker fired pistol like a Glock but there are enough other excellent choices in firearms that there must be at least one style they would be comfortable with. This is really just a little mental block that is probably not much different than that little voice when you first start carrying that keeps telling you your printing when you know your not. Only in this case the little voice is telling you the gun is more dangerous. It is but the increase in usefulness more than makes up for it.

After all time and money invested in getting a permit, gun, holster, training, etc. I don't want my family and friends to remember me as the dummy who got killed because he was carrying an unloaded gun. To me that would be even worse than not having one.

FranklyTodd
January 19, 2008, 11:56 AM
I'm going to, for the most part ;), stay out what has turned into a childish thread. My solution was adding a safety to my G26. For those that ridicule anyone carrying Condition 3 (as I carried before adding the Cominolli), why don't you similarly ridicule people who carry on their ankle?

Condition 3 in a handy location versus Condition 1 in an ankle rig... Who gets the first shot off in most scenarios?

Everyone should carry however they like. Then they should share how they carry and why, and we'll all learn from each other. Telling anyone that the way they carry is "useless" or "retarded" is childish, and the furthest thing from what TheHighRoad is supposed to be.

For those that have been insulted - I've noticed more than once a post like: I'm almost 21 and going to get my first gun. And they are a "Senior Member" with like 1200 posts under their belt, including some vehemently held opinions about guns, and carry, etc.! There's a lot of knowledge available on these forums, but really, opinions, you have to take them with a grain of salt.

bikerdoc
January 19, 2008, 10:45 PM
just my opinion- round in the chamber and finger off the triger

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