30-06 or .308 for 1000 yds sniping?


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Firepower!
January 3, 2008, 03:29 PM
30-06 or .308 for 1000 yds snipping?

I have Remington model 700 for 30-06; and
HK-91 for .308.

I am going on south in the country for some desert hunting and target shooting.

Which do you think is better?

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Jimmie
January 3, 2008, 03:33 PM
http://www.snipercountry.com/Articles/AccuracyFacts.asp

MarshallDodge
January 3, 2008, 03:39 PM
I would think the Remington is going to be more accurate than the PTR anyway.

My suggestion would be to benchrest both guns at 100 yards and see how they do on paper.

skinewmexico
January 3, 2008, 03:39 PM
I doubt that an HK-91 is going to shoot to 500 yards with any kind of predictable accuracy. Plus you need a long barrel to get a 308 to remain supersonic at 1000 yards. So I'd say 30-06, unless you want to start from scratch with a modern 1000 yard cartridge.

Mr White
January 3, 2008, 05:33 PM
If you're looking for an accurate 1000 yd caliber, a 6.5mm is where you want to be. Of the 2 you listed, however, I'd say 30-06 because you can squeeze an extra hundred FPS out of it with 175s.

The Annoyed Man
January 3, 2008, 05:42 PM
I would say either caliber would be good for 1,000 yards, but I tend to use my scissors for "snipping."

:D

W.E.G.
January 3, 2008, 05:46 PM
Only one letter "p" in sniping.

Use whichever rifle has the best sights.

There is little difference between the two cartridges.

A 3mph change in wind velocity will change the point of impact left/right 35 inches at 1000 yards with those guns.

Good luck with your 1000-yard shooting.

cracked butt
January 3, 2008, 06:09 PM
http://www.snipercountry.com/Articles/AccuracyFacts.asp

There are a lot of truths and half-truths in that article.

For one, the .308 was more accurate in gas operated semiautos available when the .308 was introduced- namely the M1 Garand and M14. The M1 garand is typically more accurate when chambered in the .308 simply because the M1 was not originally designed for the 30-06, but a cartridge more similar to the .308, and the M1 could not use the 30-06 loaded to its full potential, even less so today with better powders available.

Palma competitors use rifles chambered in .308 simply because they are required to by the rules of the game, not because its any better or worse than a 30-06, also the ammunition used by Palma competitors are not even Ideal loads for long range shooting of the .308.

Some accuracy tests at 600 yards with the .308 produced test groups in the 1 to 2 inch range. These were 20 to 40 shot groups.

1/3 MOA at 600 yards for a 40 shot group? I have a bridge that's for sale.

The .308 might have a slight edge in accuracy at 1000 yards, but that is pretty much neagted by the fact that a bullet fired from a 30-06 starts out 100fps faster which is enough to make it easier to keep the bullet supersonic out to 1000 yards.

oregonhunter
January 3, 2008, 06:47 PM
your a sniper eh

RIDE
January 3, 2008, 07:06 PM
Take a look at the .257 Weatherby Mag.

BsChoy
January 3, 2008, 07:11 PM
There is a guy named Don (USSR) here and on snipershide who has had really ood results from an '06 and RL22 with 190 grain bullets. It is a completely viable option IMHO

Roswell 1847
January 3, 2008, 07:35 PM
The original Match ammunition for use with the M14 was downloaded to the same balistics as the .303 British service cartridge, 170+ grain bullet at around 2,460 FPS.

Powders used at the time caused a rapid increase in pressures in the 7.62X51 Nato case as bullet weights approached those of the heaviest .30/06 loadings.
To ahceive the same ballistics of the .303 round the Nato round generated about 10% higher pressures.

USSR
January 3, 2008, 10:02 PM
Well, if you look strictly at the two rifles mentioned, it's a no-brainer; the Remington 700 being a boltgun, will shoot rings around an HK-91. If you look strictly at the two catridges in comparable bolt action rifles, I would take the .30-06 for 1k shots (and I have both .308 and .30-06 sniper rifles and shoot regularly at 1000 yards). Here is why: when you are shooting at 1k, the biggest factor is the wind. Assuming you have an accurate rifle, ballistics is everything. With the .30-06, you can drive 190gr SMK's (BC of .533) at 2900fps and cut somewhat into the wind. The .308 simply cannot match the .30-06 with velocity and heavy, high BC bullets. Oh, and Jimmie, that article is 10 years old and based on nearly 50 year old data. With the slower burning powders we have today, and not being forced to load the '06 to pressures suitable to a M1 Garand, the '06 cartridge gives up nothing to the .308.

Don

Roswell 1847
January 3, 2008, 10:18 PM
Actually the Garand receiver and bolt could withstand 120,000 PSI, far higher than any normal cartridge case of the day could handle.
Heavier bullet loads were not normally issued for the Garand because of feeding issues and a defective cut on early op rods rather than lock up or receiver strength issues.
Early failures of operating rods were cured by a radiused cut rather than the original square cut. I traded the square Cut Op rod from a Rifle I rebuilt to a collector for a NIB raduis cut op rod.
He was building up an example of an original early issue Garand on a low number receiver so the part was to finish his gun out as it left the Armory.

Garands with the proper rod can handle even the hottest AP without a problem.

USSR
January 3, 2008, 11:23 PM
Actually the Garand receiver and bolt could withstand 120,000 PSI, far higher than any normal cartridge case of the day could handle.
Heavier bullet loads were not normally issued for the Garand because of feeding issues and a defective cut on early op rods rather than lock up or receiver strength issues.
Early failures of operating rods were cured by a radiused cut rather than the original square cut. I traded the square Cut Op rod from a Rifle I rebuilt to a collector for a NIB raduis cut op rod.

Not talking about chamber pressure. The reason you can't use heavy bullets with slow burning powder in the Garand is due to port pressure, not chamber pressure. And what such ammo does to op rods:eek:, will not be cured by the radius cut change that was made during the early production years of the Garand.

Don

Roswell 1847
January 3, 2008, 11:27 PM
with slow burning powder in the Garand
I see you are speaking only of modern loads not the early problems with the 172 gr bullets in the Garand.

Bazooka Joe71
January 4, 2008, 12:28 AM
but I tend to use my scissors for "snipping."


Only one letter "p" in sniping.


Dang guys, tough crowd tonight, eh? I'm going to have to leave a post-it note on my screen reminding me to triple check my spelling before posting on here.

As for the question, there is no question which rifle is going to be better for 1,000 yard shots(Rem 700)...Even though I voted for .308 before reading the whole post.:p

1200 meters
January 4, 2008, 01:33 AM
Hey Guys, I shoot 1000 meters often. was a sniper for over 16 years and used an M-21 system with ART scope. in 1978 I fired 10.5 in groups at1250 meters with the M-118 ball ammo. I presently load 240gr serrea bthp with 4064 and it is transsonic past 1300meters. dave

Firepower!
January 4, 2008, 09:42 AM
I have read at many places that 308 is more accurate since perhaps its a new cartridge then 30-06??

taliv
January 4, 2008, 11:05 AM
did you read the link on the first response in this thread?

Ol` Joe
January 4, 2008, 11:15 AM
Both have won 1000 yd matches and will do. The biggest thing in long range shooting is knowing for certain exactly how far the target is. Once you get out past 300 yds a error of 25 yds in range or less can result in a miss. If you know your range the drop and windage can be figured to compensate for it. If you don`y you`re just sprayin` and prayin`. The difference in drop at 500 yds with a 190 gr MKHP and 510 yds at 2600 fps is 4" raise the velocity to 2750 and the drop is still 3". That is the difference only 10 yds makes at 500, go to 1000 yd and and you get the idea.....

alsaqr
January 4, 2008, 11:46 AM
My LC-70 M-118 Match says 173 grain bullet and 2,550 fps on the boxes.
My LC-62 M-72 Match (.30-06) says 173 grain bullet and 2,640 fps on the boxes. Neither is nearly as accurate as some linked IVI-70 7.62mm that I have.

Lake City Match ammo started getting sloppy in the early 1960s: primer holes off center, etc.

USSR
January 4, 2008, 01:35 PM
My LC-70 M-118 Match says 173 grain bullet and 2,550 fps on the boxes.
My LC-62 M-72 Match (.30-06) says 173 grain bullet and 2,640 fps on the boxes. Neither is nearly as accurate as some linked IVI-70 7.62mm that I have.

Lake City Match ammo started getting sloppy in the early 1960s: primer holes off center, etc.

If you've ever pulled down one of these LC Match rounds, you would understand why they are not particularly accurate rounds. First, they seal the bullet with asphaltum, which hardens into something akin to epoxy. Bullet release must be into the hundreds of pounds, and the only way you can get them out of the case is with a collet-type of puller. Second, the bullet weights and ogive-to-base measurements are all over the place. And finally, the case weights vary by up to 7 grains with M72 Match. Still, for the reloader with alot of time on his hands, good ammo can be made from the components.

Don

Firepower!
January 4, 2008, 01:47 PM
http://www.snipercountry.com/Articles/AccuracyFacts.asp
I read this one.
It cliams clearly .308

Silvanus
January 4, 2008, 02:24 PM
I think in your case, the weapon is far more important than the caliber. The Remington is the only one of those two that will give you a realistic chance of hitting something at 1000 yards.

alsaqr
January 4, 2008, 05:48 PM
"Still, for the reloader with alot of time on his hands, good ammo can be made from the components."

Not in my opinion. The cases are terrible and the bullets are little better. I have a large quantity of M72 and M118 Match that is used for trading and short-mid range plinking at coyotes.

B.D. Turner
January 4, 2008, 07:28 PM
.300 Win Mag beats them both.

orionengnr
January 4, 2008, 08:22 PM
.300 Win Mag beats them both.

So does 155 mm Howitzer...unfortunately, neither is among the chioces, and as such is irrelevant....

Answering a question nobody asked is not terribly helpful.

USSR
January 4, 2008, 08:32 PM
Not in my opinion. The cases are terrible and the bullets are little better. I have a large quantity of M72 and M118 Match that is used for trading and short-mid range plinking at coyotes.

Alsaqr,

I'd be more than happy to take some of your brass and/or bullets off your hands if you PM me. I match prep the brass (including neckturning) and separate them by weight. The bullets are separated by both weight and ogive-to-base length, which will vary by .030".


Don

Koontzy
January 4, 2008, 08:37 PM
the sniper country article that was posted is so old and outdated, that with todays rifles and calibers it doesnt matter... I was also looking into a 1000+ yard shooting caliber, then I went to a 1000 yard match and saw how far that it really is... Oh man!

Out of the .308 and the .30-06 I would chose the .30-06...... reason is the bullet availability, and with reloading the .30-06 can stomp the .308 in competition. I have seen both calibers perform well at long range, withthe edge going really neither way... its not the caliber, but the shooter. If the shooter doesnt undertand wind, ballistics, range compensation, and even elevation, humidity and other aspects taken into account for a shot that long, it wont matter what gun he has in his hand...

I like the idea that on average, no matter the yardage the .30-06 has more dropping power and penetration at longer ranges.

so either way you go, both calibers will do fine. Just make sure your doing yor part because if you dont do your part, dont blame it on the caliber or gun.

Aussie bloke!
January 4, 2008, 08:44 PM
G'day everyone,....

I voted for the .308

Why,..because I love the cartridge,..I shoot out to that range with the .308,...I do so now more for fun though.
I find the differance between the .308 and the .30-06 is that the .30-06 shoots slightly flater over the same distance.

Just my thoughts.

Aussie.

1200 meters
January 5, 2008, 01:59 AM
Both are 30 cals if both are fired from same type rifle then they preform mush the same. I shoot both, but I can load a mush heaver projectile from th 30-06 because of the brass volume. this will make a difference at longer distances on the hunt. of course one is not likely to shoot at an animal 1300 to 1600 meters out. Unless one is a sniper perchance. Unless one practices much, anything over 500 meters might be a ricky shot. I am also getting 5 shot ragged hole at 100 meters with an 8MM Mauser that I load 200 gr, sierra htbt at 2650 fps. Haven't shot these long range yet but should go fine. ther is a new 30 cal out with same ballistics as 30-06 but much smaller cartridge. Any one seen it yet? Dave

1200 meters
January 5, 2008, 02:00 AM
Sorry "much" the same

B.D. Turner
January 5, 2008, 01:21 PM
155 mm Howitzer not a choice either but close with the 155 is good enough.

Firepower!
January 6, 2008, 12:12 PM
I also think that there is a wider variety of guns/makes offered in .308 than 30-06. This gives one a great deal of picks to choose from.

gcrookston
January 6, 2008, 12:17 PM
Here's what I've found from personal experience: 5.56 will bounce off a steel plate at 500 yards... 30.06 and .308 will bounce off a steel plate at 1,000 yards. .300 winmag will go "poof" at 1,000 yards, and .338 Lapua will go through a 1/4" Mild steel plate at these distances. My unscientific research leads me to believe the .308 and 30.06 have about the same ballistics

USSR
January 6, 2008, 03:52 PM
Here's what I've found from personal experience: 5.56 will bounce off a steel plate at 500 yards... 30.06 and .308 will bounce off a steel plate at 1,000 yards. .300 winmag will go "poof" at 1,000 yards, and .338 Lapua will go through a 1/4" Mild steel plate at these distances. My unscientific research leads me to believe the .308 and 30.06 have about the same ballistics

Hmmm, I can only assume that you are talking about factory loads. Let's take Federal Gold Medal Match ammo for example: .308 w/168SMK at 2650fps vs. .30-06 w/168SMK at 2700fps vs. .300WM w/190SMK at 2900fps. Clearly, there's not a dimes worth of difference between the .308 and .30-06, both of which fall way behind the .300WM ballistically and power-wise at 1,000 yards. However, once you reload the .30-06 with the 190SMK at 2900fps (as I have done for the past 5 years), the .30-06 leaves the .308 in the dust, and is the equal of .300WM factory target ammo.

Don

futureranger
January 6, 2008, 04:10 PM
Im no expert but from what I have read id say the 30-06 has more potential than the .308 at 1000 yards when custom loaded. But from what I have heard the .308 has one more 1000 yard matched than the 30-06 by far… that has to count for something.

Firepower!
January 6, 2008, 04:11 PM
gcrookston
I wish 300 Mag or even 700 nitro was available here in the tribal areas of Pakistan. But they are not. So my choices are limited. Was in USA, you bet I would have collection from .22 to any thing you can BUY!

Limeyfellow
January 6, 2008, 04:30 PM
Both are capable of the deed, calibre wise, but the Remington 700 will most likely give you the better results.

The original Match ammunition for use with the M14 was downloaded to the same balistics as the .303 British service cartridge, 170+ grain bullet at around 2,460 FPS.

In Britain you can do long range shooting with the Lee Enfield and .303 British at Bisley. This is done at 800-1100 yards. The rifle is more than capable of the ranges. The longest I shot the Lee Enfield however at is 600 yards and with iron sights. I wish people didn't criticize the .303 British so much as so and so round is only as good as...

Firepower!
January 7, 2008, 07:05 AM
I think as some one mentioned, what weapon you use the round in is also a big question/issue important in determining the performance.

PLUS most amries are using .308 as sniper rifles if not .50.

Firepower!
January 11, 2008, 09:54 AM
What modern rifle uses 30-06?

USSR
January 11, 2008, 10:28 AM
What modern rifle uses 30-06?

This one.

http://www.ussr.baka.com/Win06t1.jpg

But, you are correct, your cannot buy a factory-made tactical rifle in .30-06. So, if you don't intend to have one built to your specs, then an off-the-shelf .308 should be your choice.

Don

KBintheSLC
January 11, 2008, 03:53 PM
I prefer the .308 overall as a universal round. However, at 1000 yds, I would say it is a toss up. The gun probably matters more at this point than the small difference in ballistics.

Rshooter
January 11, 2008, 05:58 PM
Er.....nobody has addressed, maybe it is not necessary, you are not planning on hunting at 1k yards are you? Not to be a wet blanket but this would be a little far would it not?

gcrookston
January 11, 2008, 11:46 PM
Yes, I'm shooting 7.62 168 gr. Federal GMM and 1976 vintage 173gr. LC Match in my 30-06, for my comparisons. The .300WM is also Federal GMM 190 gr. The .338 Lapua is 300gr. Sierra Match King bullets. The rifles are an M1a "m21", a 1903 NM, an M700 and an Accuracy International.

Oohrah
January 12, 2008, 07:38 AM
Early to mid 60s, the Marine Corps were mainly using Win. Mod.70, with
a heavy barrel (Not target) with LC Match 30-06. Quite a few kills were
1000 yds plus. Scopes varried on makes and models and there were even
a few 03A4s and much later scoped M-14s appeared. Not very savy after
mid 60s. Bolt run 30-06s were able to take amost all heavy bullets and
loads that would batter Garands badly. Not a bunch of difference between
the NATO round and 06 as far as accuracy is concerned:confused: Moving
away from military loads in the two, the 30-06 is more versitile of the two.:)

Firepower!
March 13, 2008, 09:10 AM
Is Remington 700 any good?

Magnuumpwr
March 13, 2008, 11:24 AM
Firepower, if the H&K is not a designated sniper rifle configuration, I would opt for the Rem 700. Chances are your H&K has a barrel length of 18 - 20 inches and the Rem should be at least 24. It is unlikely that a run of the mill semi auto 308 will out perform a Rem hunting rifle in the same caliber and using the same type ammo. (Just looked at your 91 and the hands down choice is the REM 700 for repeat shooting at 1000 yds.)

Geno
March 13, 2008, 11:44 AM
Given the restriction of either .308 or .30-06, probably I would opt for .30-06. But, there is a better game in town...the 6.5X.284 Win.

The 6.5X.284 Win is considered one of the most accurate, flattest-shooting, ultra-distance rounds available. I have a video of a gentleman taking on targets at 1 mile with this set-up.

Firepower!
March 13, 2008, 04:26 PM
Magnuumpwr: You think HK 91 is no good? I had some good fun with it. Yet to shoot Rem 700.

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