Top Five Submachine Guns


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Timthinker
January 3, 2008, 06:49 PM
As a history buff, I am interested in the weapons that have shaped the fate of nations. One weapon that I have not seen discussed very often is the submachine gun, a child of the twentieth century technology. So, what are the top five submachine guns that you, our contributors, believed were most significant in warfare and why did you make those selections? Please remember to support the reasons behind your choices.


Timthinker

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30 cal slob
January 3, 2008, 06:53 PM
mac

uzi

mp-5

seem to be a lot of transferables floating around in the u.s.

for historical kewlness...

schmeisser

grease gun

sten

sterling

my favorite open bolt shooters: walther MP-K/L and Uzi.

General Geoff
January 3, 2008, 06:53 PM
Trick question. Everyone knows submachine guns are too bulky to be side arms, and too weak to replace real rifles. :D

mpmarty
January 3, 2008, 06:59 PM
+1 on the scant impact the sub machine gun has had on global warfare. At best it is an urban legend favored by novelists and with limited appeal as an entry weapon. Good pistols and ARs are more practical as both concealable and powerful respectively. MACs are junk, had one in 45acp (MAC-10) the Thompson or HK MP-5 are probably closest to something practical but only when the MP-5 is chambered for the 10MM which in selective fire mode gives it hundred yard usefulness.

tegemu
January 3, 2008, 06:59 PM
Thompson, Schmeiser, Sten, The Russian WWII gun (Forget the name), the MP-5. I don't understand reply #2, the original poster didn't mention side arms and rifles.

General Geoff
January 3, 2008, 07:08 PM
I said "trick question," because the OP assumes that any submachine guns were actually significant in warfare on a large scale.

Compare the actual usage of any submachine gun to that of full length rifles and rifle-caliber carbines in war, and you will see that it is, in fact, a trick question.

Cannonball888
January 3, 2008, 07:08 PM
The Russian WWII gun (Forget the name)
PPsh.
Pronounced pay-pay-sha according to my wife
Rarely did they jam, german soldats often prefered them to their own MP40s.

Timthinker
January 3, 2008, 07:09 PM
To avoid dissention in the ranks, let me rephrase the question. What are your choices for the top five submachine guns that have been used in military conflicts? Also, why did you make those particular choices? I like to think my top five can be justified, but time will tell. Before I list my five, I would like to read a few more contributions.


Timthinker

General Geoff
January 3, 2008, 07:11 PM
Thompson, H&K MP5, Uzi, Grease Gun. I can't really think of a fifth.

Remmi
January 3, 2008, 07:12 PM
Trick question. Everyone knows submachine guns are too bulky to be side arms, and too weak to replace real rifles.

Clearly someone needs to read up on the FN P-90; and it's signature SS190 cartridge, then re-evaluate their position on 'Bulky' or 'Weak' SMGs.

General Geoff
January 3, 2008, 07:17 PM
I know a lot about the P90 and Five-seveN; while the external ballistics are impressive on the round (for what it is), one could use an FN F2000 and have a more powerful cartridge in the same size weapon (approximately). In short, the P90 is the answer to a question no one asked.

The Five-seveN's sweet, though. You'll get no arguments against that pistol from me.

Timthinker
January 3, 2008, 07:20 PM
No trick question is intended here. After all, this is not graduate school.:D Actually, one of the submachine guns on my list did make a contribution for one particular nation, but I do not want to "tip" my hand any further at this point. I am just curious about the top five submachine guns our readers consider as significant weapons within the submachine gun category. No one is forced to contribute any answers. As I stated earlier, this is not graduate school.


Timthinker

Remmi
January 3, 2008, 07:26 PM
Hardly the same approximate size.

19 inches compared to 27 inches in length is a significant difference in exchange for loss of magazine size, as well as the addition of indeed, true 'bulk' from the standard 5.56 NATO magazine and the height that feed mechanism. The F2000 and the P90 both excel at what they were designed to do; but arguably the P90 is smaller, lighter, carries a larger standard magazine, and fits easily into most overhead storage compartments.

Now, if we were proposing a replacement for the aging M-16A4, then yes. The F2000 would get my whole-hearted vote. But for extreme-CQB, there isn't a much better high-capacity automatic weapon then the P90.

Ash
January 3, 2008, 07:27 PM
Actually, it is not at all a trick question. The Suomi played a very significant role in the Winter War.

Ash

General Geoff
January 3, 2008, 07:32 PM
But for extreme-CQB, there isn't a much better high-capacity automatic weapon then the P90.

I want to agree with you, but, the P90 is just so freaking ugly!

Concept is great, but as I said before, it's the answer to a question no one asked. FWIW, I've never had a maneuverability problem in tight quarters with a full 22" barrelled M1A, so I don't see what all the hype about ultra-short bullpup carbines/SMGs is anyway...

rcmodel
January 3, 2008, 07:33 PM
The Russian PPsh, the British Sten & Sterling, and German MP-40 are probably the only four that had any major influence on the outcome of a battle in WWII.

There were certainly several others used to one extent or another, but none of them really had any affect on the outcome like those did.

In later wars, the Israelis and the UZI can't be left out.

That is really about it of any major importance I can think of!

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j219/rcmodel/KTOG/1224.gif
rcmodel

rmkey
January 3, 2008, 07:35 PM
The thompson is my personal favoite because it is 45 cal and because the great Vic Marrow used it!!!
Actually I wonder if the ppsh41 Russian is not the most significant. Because it had a high rate of fire with controllability due to the smalll 30 cal bullet and high penetration because of the 30 cal and hight velocity. It did kill a lot of Krauts.

Kind of Blued
January 3, 2008, 07:55 PM
1) Thompson
2) MP40
3) H&K MP5
4) PPsh
5) Uzi

I'm really not educated on the military success or influence of these weapons. While they may not have killed that many people in comparison to heavy machine guns or rifles, I'm sure they KEPT alot of enemies from killing the submachine gunner's comrades et al via covering fire.

I seem to remember the PPsh being one hell of a brass spitter.

I guess the MP5 hasn't really been employed to much in warfare, but certainly has made a name for itself in more tactical SWAT team type applications. Possibly just too expensive and not abundant enough for thugs to get a hold of, or maybe I've just watched too many shoot 'em ups.

dscottw88
January 3, 2008, 08:03 PM
I agree that the P90 excells at what it was designed to do, and the 5.7 rounds are very respectable. Ugly? Sure, but so is the glock, and that doesn't stop me from liking them.

AtticusThraxx
January 3, 2008, 08:07 PM
I'll have to take everyone's word on this one. I live in California and I don't think I'm allowed to even have pictures of submachine guns.

Ash
January 3, 2008, 08:20 PM
I would say the most significant subgun was the Suomi followed by the Soviet PPSh and STEN. I think the subgun had the most impact in the Eastern Theatres of the European element of WWII.

Ash

Evil Monkey
January 3, 2008, 08:21 PM
The hell with SMG's. Assault rifles have gotten so short now with their bullpup configurations and even shorter barrels on top of that, the SMG just lacks versatility in comparison.

And while I'm at it, let me attack 308 and battle rifles! :D
No, I'm only joking. lol

Roswell 1847
January 3, 2008, 08:54 PM
The Thompson proved itself pretty throughly in WW2.
One old German soldier said on TV interview that in battle whenever he heard a burst from a Thompson he knew another of his men was dead.

The MP40 also proven in Combat
The PPSH 41 armed entire battalions of Tank riders.
The UZI proved itself in many battles including the assault on an ancient fortress where Israeli Commandos outshot the defenders on the parapets because they could hold onto the scaling ropes and fire accurate bursts with the other hand.

The Soumi probably killed more men in combat than any other submachinegun.
Single Soumi gunners are credited with pinning down and/or wiping out entire Soviet plattoons killing as many as 80 men in a matter of minutes.

Interestingly the Soumi Gunners invented the ghetto sideways style of shooting. As the gun began to foul and misfeed after hours of continuous use they found that by holding it sideways it continued to function for a few more magazines full.
This is partly why horizontal feed was used for so many SMG designs. The rounds in the Mag don't have to fight gravity, and the empties aren't as likely to get stuck on the way out.

jaholder1971
January 3, 2008, 09:21 PM
MP5

Thompson

Uzi

M3

MP40

Cosmoline
January 3, 2008, 09:33 PM
WWII and the early Cold War were the golden era of SMG's. I'd rank these as the top 5--

Suomi KP-31
PPS 43
Thompson SMG
MP-40
UZI

The Suomi is a remarkable weapon. It shoots at or near MOA, fires a potent cartridge, and is easy to maintain and repair. The Finns spanked the Soviets hard with this weapon. It's no accident that the legendary PPSh-41 looks so much like the Suomi.

I give the Soviets props for developing the lighter, handier PPS 43 which earned its place in history during the rough end of WWII

The Thompson is bulky and somewhat antiquated, but you gotta give it credit. It did excellent service during urban and jungle fighting for many many decades beyond what should have been its service life. Plus its legendary status as both a gangster weapon and weapon of war give it a place of honor.

The MP-40 is bigger than it looks in movies, for some reason. In the flesh it's heavy too. But it is a really cool and interesting, if imperfect, blowback design. And it's become iconic of the German military during WWII

The UZI is reliable, well made and IIRC ended up as the single most widely used SMG design of all. What's not to like?

http://www.guns.connect.fi/gow/saimed.jpg

Gunnerpalace
January 3, 2008, 09:38 PM
1. Thompson M1928 (Turned the tide in WW2 along with the Garand)

2. Heckler And Koch MP5 (Ultra-Reliable Favored by Spec-Ops)

3. IMI Uzi (Ultra-Reliable Pulls IMI into the lime-light)

4. The PPsh (Russian Ingenuity Gives us a preview of Arms to come)

5.The Villar-Perosa (The First SMG Ever)

MachIVshooter
January 3, 2008, 09:44 PM
1)Thompson-Though not the first, one of the earliest and certainly vies for "best in class", even among modern SMG's. It's only drawback is weight, but it would be difficult to control a lighter .45 SMG with such a high rate of fire.

2)MP-18-it really was the first, though an ugly and cumbersome weapon with a low rate of fire that doesn't help an already anemic round.

3)Uzi-It's an icon, for one. But it's also one of the most robust and simple designs ever that maintains quality. Yeah, the M3 and Sten were cheap and effective, but they don't have the Uzi's appeal.

4) MP-5. It is the definitive SMG of the late 20th/early 21st and a benchmark for quality, controllability and accuracy from such platforms.

5) MP7 and P90- They have addressed the primary shortcoming of the SMG, which is effectiveness against armored targets. The rounds pale in comparison the intermediate assault rifle cartridges, but in the 21st century we are seeing more and more armored combatants. This attribute will be an important one for those rear eschelon troops who would normally have a sidearm or conventioanl SMG.

sd
January 3, 2008, 09:51 PM
effect on history. Russian PPSH.
http://www.ppsh41.com/

Cosmoline
January 3, 2008, 09:56 PM
Russian Ingenuity

That's FINNISH ingenuity, thank you very much. The Soviets copied it.

Timthinker
January 3, 2008, 10:31 PM
OK. Here are my top five SMGs, listed in no particular order, along with the reasons I believe justify their incorporation into this thread.

The Finnish Suomi SMG has been mentioned by some of our members as a good design that inflicted heavy casualties upon enemy forces. It was the Suomi, along with good tactics, that allowed Finland to inflict huge losses upon invading Soviet forces during the Winter War of 1939. This conflict demonstrated the utility of the SMG to all nations, particularly the Soviets. But the true significance of the Winter War was to demonstrate the poor tactics of the Red Army to Adolf Hitler, who believed the Soviets were so incompetent that he approved the decision to invade the Soviet Union in 1941. Indeed, the Suomi played a role in enabling the small Finnish military to perform so well.

The Soviet PPSh41, also called the Shpagin, resulted from the poor performance of the Red Army during the Winter War. The Shpagin gave the Soviet military a high rate of fire which proved useful following the German invasion in 1941. So successful was the PPSh that over five million were produced for the Red Army during the "Great Patriotic War". The PPSh fit well into Soviet offensive tactics of closing with the enemy forces. The Shpagin was truly one SMG that played a significant role in ground combat.

The German MP38/40 deserves incorporation because it was not only a reliable design but it also fit well into the German doctrine of blitzkrieg (lightening war). The MP38/40 gave German airborne forces the firepower they need in 1940 against the Allied powers. In addition, the MP40 version was the first SMG that could be massed produced from steel stampings, thereby reducing the cost of the weapon and simplifying production. This set the stage for other SMG productions by other nations.

If cheapness is a characteristic for inclusion into successful submachine gun designs, the Sten SMG designs would be king. The Sten was adopted to provide the beleaguered British Army with a reliable submachine gun after the dark days of Dunkirk. Millions of Stens were produced for British and Commonwealth forces during the Second World War. In fact, the Sten also proved an ideal weapon to equip the French Resistance forces in occupied Europe. Given the wide use of Sten designs, it certainly merits consideration as a successful SMG.

Finally, we come to my personal favorite SMG: the Thompson. The Thompson was not an inexpensive or cheap design to produce. But the Thompson was a reliable weapon that was appreciated by all who used it. It gained famed initially as a weapon of gangsters and G-men during the interwar period. Then it was adopted by the United States Army in 1938 and went on to provide badly needed firepower to troops in the Pacific Theatre of operations. In Europe, it gave airborne forces the firepower they required when deployed behind enemy lines. It also was useful in urban combat after the Allies landed in Europe in 1944. The Thompson continued to soldier on into the Korean War, long after its replacement, the M3, had been adopted. This is a fine testimony for any weapon.


Timthinker

Wes Janson
January 3, 2008, 11:45 PM
I'll repeat everything Tim said, but add the Uzi onto that for a 6th entry to the top five.

hank327
January 3, 2008, 11:47 PM
top five submachine guns that you, our contributors, believed were most significant in warfare

1. Thompson
2. MP38/40
3. PPSH41
4. Sten
5. Soumi

I chose the first four because they armed significant portions of the major combatants in WWII and beyond. I chose the Soumi because of the role it played in the Winter War and how it influenced the USSR to issue the PPSH to huge numbers of its troops. Later SMGs like the Uzi and the MP5 while nice weapons have not played, IMO a significant role in warfare since the widespread adoption of the assault rifle.

Timthinker
January 4, 2008, 12:06 AM
Hank, you are a mind reader. If you pay close attention to my top five, then it become obvious they all participated in World War Two. After that conflict, the assault rifle began to gain popularity with the major military powers. Whether the SMG is still useful to modern militaries is an open question, one I may raise in another thread.


Timthinker

Ed DCB
January 4, 2008, 07:07 AM
I vote for this one. :)

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/7811043/m/589109167

Happy 2008, Y'all!

Deanimator
January 4, 2008, 07:24 AM
schmeisser
Hugo Schmeisser had little or nothing to do with the MP38 and MP40.

BuntlineSpecial
January 4, 2008, 09:31 AM
top five burp guns, IMHO

Thompson, it made the SMG a "household name", due to limited used in '20's and '30's (Most of the gangsters actually preferred the BAR)
PPSh-41, mass produced, cheap and reliable, stopped the Germans in WW-2, and then exported communism to China and Europe.
STEN - ushered in the idea of the ultra cheap SMG - before they, like the Tommy gun, were made like shorter range rifles (Look at the rear sight on an M-1928 if you don't believe me)
(TIE) UZI, Ingram MAC-10 - brought the dying idea of the SMG back into the general eye in the late 70's, 80's when it was being eclipsed by the assault rifle concept. The Ingram was of limited use, short range, hard to control and hang on to, but its mere size made it visually interesting.
and a shout out for Armalite's Folding Sub-gun, which folded up almost like a butterfly knife. A neat idea come too late to the table.

4v50 Gary
January 4, 2008, 10:18 AM
PPsH - can be crudely made quickly. Issued in mass numbers by the Russians and very popular even with the Germans who captured them.
Uzi - not the first SMG to have a telescoping bolt (the Czechs beat them to it), but certainly the most popular and it was widely issued among Israelis. At one time, the probably the most popular SMG in the Western World.
Sten - Not the most reliable, but like the PPsH can be easily made without extensive use of machine tools.
Villar-Perosa - the granddaddy that started the genre. Best known today for its brief appearance in the Indiana Jones movie, The Last Crusade. You can see one that is mounted on the handlebar of a bicycle at the Indiana War Memorial in Indianapolis.
Thompson - The SMG that came to symbolize gangland violence. Thought at one time to be the first weapon used in drive by shootings, it was preceded by the bow which was fired from a horse drawn chariot. :p Its heavy weight, outmoded manufacturing techniques (machined as opposed to stampings or modern plastics), makes this fun gun more of a museum piece than a modern combat arm.

LAK
January 4, 2008, 11:01 AM
The Suomi, Thompson and the MP38/40.

Incidently, Finnish sniper Simo Häyhä made about 250 of his 500+ kills with a Suomi subgun.

Vaarok
January 4, 2008, 11:38 AM
What kind of madness is this, no props to the Owen?

Suomi, PPSh-41, PPS-43, Owen, and MP-40.

All the Thompson has going for it is nationalism, it was heavy overcomplicated (Blish lock, anybody?) and hideously expensive. The Greasegun was chintzy. The STEN was impressive, and almost made the list, but was so chintzy it was dangerous. The Beretta 38 wasn't anything special, the MP-38 wasn't either, and the PPD-40 never really saw use with anybody but the NKVD.

Tommygunn
January 4, 2008, 11:52 AM
All the Thompson has going for it is nationalism, it was heavy overcomplicated (Blish lock, anybody?) and hideously expensive.
The July 2006 edition of the magazine "Small Arms Review" had an interesting article about the Thompson and the "Blish lock" on page 50.
The authors obtained a 1921 Thompson, and in order to test the Blish lock (a controversial device even from the gun's inception) and obtained a second Blish device. They milled off the trunions (the two "ears" on either side that keep it running inside the inner slots of the Thompson's receiver). This kept the actuator locked to the bolt, but eliminated the device insofar as it causing the "delayed blowback" it allegedly caused. The Thompson so equiped ran at a rate 200 RPM faster than the gun did with the device.
The Blish did, in fact work; but the authors came to a new conclusion; the device didn't work as originally thought. There was no "differential of friction" involved; it depended upon a leverage principle, since the angle the Blish used inside the bolt was different than the angle of the slots in the receiver.
The authors concluded that the rate of fire would have been retarded better by a different recoil spring, or a more solid bolt. The Blish worked, but was more complicated than the gun needed to be.
I think the later WW2 development of the M1 and M1A1 Thompson pretty much demonstrates the device wasn't needed; but still, the fact that the device didn't work the way Mr. Thompson & Mr. Blish claimed was pretty interesting.

Library Guy
January 4, 2008, 11:52 AM
The historical importance of the SMG has little to do with its ballistic virtues but with the fact that for a great number of WWII combatants it was all they had.

Consider that whole battalions of Soviet soldiers were armed with SMGs. (The same can be said of the Chinese in the Korean War)

It was sometimes the only weapon available to partisan/resistance fighters.

It was the last ditch weapon for tank crews.

The SMG won its place in history by being compact and cheap. If ever the need arises to arm the masses with a $10 bullet squirter, we’ll see the SMG rise again

Remmi
January 4, 2008, 11:53 AM
Concept is great, but as I said before, it's the answer to a question no one asked. FWIW, I've never had a maneuverability problem in tight quarters with a full 22" barrelled M1A, so I don't see what all the hype about ultra-short bullpup carbines/SMGs is anyway...


Trying swinging that extra 11" or so around inside a Tank Cabin, or the back-seat of a fully-loaded medivac Humvee and then rethink what you've said. The P90 was primarily design as a PDW for vehicle crews, but also proved just as effective for SpecOps working in heavily urban areas.

Think about real close-quarters for a minute, the tight profile and close-in way you hold a P90 vs. a full-sized battle rifle makes it a mite better at CQB sheerly because there's less 'grab' potential for a Tango/Badguy to grab hold of your rifle coming 'round a corner or jumping out of concealment, for starters. Also it can be slung and unslung more easily and quickly for free-hand use for non-combat things, like splinting an injured ally's leg or operating local machinery.

But as far as classics, the Sten and the MP-40 get my vote; the Sten mostly as a nearly successful God Mode attempt by British/French forces during WW2 by designing a cheap, stupidly easy to build SMG that would also leap in useful ness every time they captured a german choke-point or command ad-hoc; they'd also capture a buttload of MP-40 ammunition, which the Sten used.

Gotta love a weapon you can re-stock by simply emptying the pockets of the soldier you just shot with it.

SteyrAUG
January 4, 2008, 02:43 PM
MP18
Thompson
Ppsh 41 or MP34/40
Uzi
MP5

zoom6zoom
January 4, 2008, 02:48 PM
The Russian PPsh, the British Sten & Sterling, and German MP-40 are probably the only four that had any major influence on the outcome of a battle in WWII.

You can take the Sterling off that list. It entered service in 1953. Still one of my favorites, though.

Ash
January 4, 2008, 05:01 PM
He's probably thinking about the Lanchester.

Ash

Limeyfellow
January 4, 2008, 05:24 PM
The PPSH41 was the most issued submachine gun of WW2 and saw a massive amount of action in the Battle Of Stalingrad, Battle of Kursk, Battle of Berlin and so on where they were issued in massive amounts. As far as small arms goes it turned back the Nazis from Russia and saw the defeat of Germany. It should really be number one on the list.

I would put the Thompson as number 2. It saw large scale use by the allies, police forces and criminal gangs and was the first one to have any real success. It had many flaws, but still works really well.

Number 3 I would put the MP38/40. Mass produced sheet steel thrown into a handy design that worked really well in a variety of roles. It is a shame it's life was cut short by not being used in particular number after WW2 with the denazification efforts.

Number 4 on the list I would put the H&K MP5. The fact it been used by pretty much every counter terrorist, special forces and so on makes it a must have on the list and is perhaps the pinacle of submachine gun technology.

Number 5 would have to be the Sten. It convinced the allies to drop the Thompson for quick production and led to the Grease Gun and a whole bunch of other designs such as the Sterling. Not the best submachine gun in the world but it brought every other nation into the 20th century.

6th place I would put the Uzi. Its an icon of the 80s and fairly effective.

Plenty of more to add to the list. You could act the Mac10 and so on because of its influence amongst criminals and gangmembers I guess.

Ash
January 4, 2008, 06:46 PM
The MP5 is used for a whole lot of practice but has actually seem comparitively little combat. The Suomi, on the other hand, was so significant it can be given a tremendous amount of the credit in Finnish success in the Winter War. Yeah, they lost, but the retained their country unlike the Baltic nations, and remained non-communist unlike Eastern Europe. One small nation in one off-shoot of WWII to be sure, but the Suomi established the success of subguns in combat at that time, convinced the Soviets to issue them en mass, and was a more reliable, more rugged machine than the STEN. Of course, it was much more difficult to produce than the STEN, but all things considered, it had a far greater impact in the theatre of war in which it served than probably any other subgun used in WWII. The MAC was a TV and Movie prop more than a weapon.

In no order, I would say

STEN
MP-40
Suomi
Thompson
PPSh

Others might have been distributed more but as far as significant contribution few can hold a candle to what a handful of Finnish soldiers, along with Father Winter, did to a million Soviet troops.

Ash

akodo
January 5, 2008, 12:54 AM
What about significant in a negative way?

As phrased, if country X goes to war with a really crappy subgun, and that contributes to their loss, shouldn't that be on the list?

How would Guadacanal have turned out if the marines had quality weapons instead of that junky resling SMG?

How many battles has something like the above taken place that we don't know about?

What if the Koreans had better SMGs, or what if the Somalis had a ton of PPSh 41s with 71 shot drums during Blackhawk down. They were just mostly spray and pray with AKs anways, they probably would have been more effective with less recoil and more shots, and what 2 PPSh for every 1 AK? Would this have allowed them to overrun more US troops turing it into a route?

I have been told by WW2 vets that the japanese with no culture of personal arms, couldn't shoot worth a darn with their rifles, but their proclivity to run up and bayonette you even if that meant your buddies would shot the japanese dead seconds later was what was feared. So, isn't the most significant SMG the subgun that the japanese failed to produce? Seems to me running up and blasting 3 guys with your SMG and then dying is better than running up and bayonetting one guy. And it seems to me the SMG would have been very handy in a lot of the jungle fighting that went on. Part of the machineguns contribution to WW2 is how cheaply you could make a M-3 greasegun compared to an M1 garand. I've seen japanese literature about civilian prep for a US invasion of the mainland, they were training the civilians with sharpened bamboo spears (not that different than charging with a bayonette I guess) Now, have the japanese figure out how to make their equivalent of the Greasegun and have the civlians armed with that instead, would japan have decided to 'wait and see if they drop a 3rd bomb, after all, half the men in the country has an XYZ gun!'

stevereno1
January 5, 2008, 01:02 AM
#1Thompson, #2 sten, #3 uzi, #4grease gun, #5 mp5. In order because of how many lives they defended.

stevereno1
January 5, 2008, 01:09 AM
Thompson because they created the sub-machinegun, the Sten because it was used to kill nazi's during ww2, the Uzi, because it defended isreal when it had to fight for existance, the grease gun, because it was used during battle in ww2 and some in 'nam, and the mp5, because it is used worldwide, and is the new benchmark for quality, and relialibility.

Ash
January 5, 2008, 08:37 AM
Oh, the Japanese did have a subgun, the Type 100, they just made very few (around 30,000 or so) and were late providing it, being delivered to the army towards the end of 1942. It was evidently pretty decent, but the Nambu round was weak - 380ACP weak - and in such small quantities it did not contribute much.

Ash

Roswell 1847
January 5, 2008, 08:55 AM
Oh, the Japanese did have a subgun, the Type 100, they just made very few (around 30,000 or so)
A friend of mine had one of those. His brother was one of the officers incharge of evaluating captured enemy automatic weapons in WW2. They apparently let him keep the weapons sent to him because the collection included everything from Mauser schnelfuers to both the MP43 and STG44. He had both the Bergman MP18 and the later MP28 and Solothurns.
I'd have a hard time listing them all, but they were all full auto or selective fire. The old guy died back in the late 60's or early 70's I have no idea what happened to the collection, I never did get along with his son.
I'd have to say that viewing those old weapons is what really got me interested in gun collecting. They were all bloted to the wall along with a bunch of WW1 trophies like swords and ancient schutzen target rifles.which I guess the brother had brought back from that war before he became an expert on weaponry.

Interesting design it used an air chamber as a buffer to regulate rate of fire.

Eric F
January 5, 2008, 09:25 AM
tompson-first american smg
ppsh-russian smg that was most effective and easy to use
mp-40-reliable
m-3-first american atempt at a downsized smg also reliable and supressable
ump45-Return of the mighty 45acp

akodo
January 5, 2008, 03:23 PM
Yes, the Japanese did have one crappy SMG, I am saying what about a theoretical "Potent+Inexpensive+Plentiful" SMG. How does the presence/absence of a "PIP" SMG change things.

I right now suggest we put the Japanese Theoretical PIP SMG on the top of the list of "[SMGs] were most significant in warfare "

Notch
January 5, 2008, 04:40 PM
"+1 on the scant impact the sub machine gun has had on global warfare. At best it is an urban legend favored by novelists and with limited appeal as an entry weapon. Good pistols and ARs are more practical as both concealable and powerful respectively. MACs are junk, had one in 45acp (MAC-10) the Thompson or HK MP-5 are probably closest to something practical but only when the MP-5 is chambered for the 10MM which in selective fire mode gives it hundred yard usefulness."

I think the Russian army durring WW2 would strongly disagree, as well as the Germans who had to face thousands of foot soldiers armed with a ppsh. Not to mention that he SUB machine gun is what sparked interest in developing the modern "assault rifle".....

slzy
January 5, 2008, 04:45 PM
i would also note the effect the suomi made on the red army in the winter war,leading to why they had all those ppsh41s.

stubbicatt
January 5, 2008, 09:05 PM
PPSh 43, Thompson, MP40, MP5, AK74U

ACP230
January 5, 2008, 09:13 PM
I'd put the Thompson first because even the Russkies got some "Lend-Lease" Tommy Guns from Uncle Sam.

Next the STen because it was made in quantity when England needed a bunch of cheap, easy to produce, subguns.

Then the Suomi/PPsh because they both did a lot of damage to Finland and Russia's enemies.

Then the M3 Grease gun. I've shot a few, including one suppressed one. Possibly the easiest to control subgun ever made due to the slow rate of fire. Hell for stout too IMO.

The Italian M38/45 also had some neat features, as did the scarce U.S. subgun the UD42. Evidently the UD was mostly used by OSS types and irregulars fighting the Germans.

Deanimator
January 5, 2008, 09:25 PM
Oh, the Japanese did have a subgun, the Type 100, they just made very few (around 30,000 or so) and were late providing it, being delivered to the army towards the end of 1942. It was evidently pretty decent, but the Nambu round was weak - 380ACP weak - and in such small quantities it did not contribute much.
They had a few other guns even before that, mostly Bergmanns used by Navy Special Naval Landing Force troops.

Ed DCB
January 12, 2008, 06:51 PM
Exact!

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z69/Quickload/German%20SMGs/JapaneseinShandong.jpg

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z69/Quickload/German%20SMGs/JapaneseShangha1937.jpg

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z69/Quickload/German%20SMGs/Japanese1937.jpg

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z69/Quickload/German%20SMGs/SwissBergmannJapan.jpg

More info here http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/7811043/m/589109167/p/1

Myles
January 12, 2008, 07:31 PM
1. MP44 Sturmgewehr

#1 because it was not truly a submachinegun, but was truly the first "assault rifle" - an idea that Adolph Hitler was altogether against. With it's "compromise" 7.92 chambering, the design was called a submachinegun, so that it could be fielded by troops. You will find a great many modern military repeating long arms stem from this design.

2. Tie: British Sten /US M3 greasegun

Simple designs that streamlined production to get vast numbers of arms in the field, quickly.

3. Uzi

Uziel Gal's 9mm submachinegun was "the" one to beat for many years. It still sees action by the IDF.

4. Heckler & Koch MP5

For decades, it has been used by counterterrorist teams with great success, HK's design cannot be faulted.

5. Russian PP-19 Bizon

Just to be contrary and to showcase one of my favorites just for it's innovation would be this AK-derivative and it's helical under-barrel magazine. Even with the older technology, this would probably tie with the 5.7mm FN P90 for it's utility in CQB, while the P90 would excel as a mid-range PDW.

woodybrighton
January 13, 2008, 06:59 AM
1 Thompson although ridicoulously over built very popular
2 the mp40 the bad guys weapon of choice
3 the sten cheap but actually a better weapon than the mp40
4 sterling post war armed everybody who did'nt want an uzi or a grease gun almost unbreakable
5 MP5 as used by the SAS should have got shares from hk for the embassy job:D

12Bravo20
January 13, 2008, 09:49 AM
Ah the ol' M3 Grease Gun! I carried one while in Germany in 1992. It wasn't until late 92 that we had to turn in our 1911s and M3s to get the M9. I liked the M3.

Cannonball888
January 13, 2008, 02:12 PM
PPSh 43, Thompson, MP40, MP5, AK74U
AK74U is not a SMG. It's an assault rifle (carbine)

woerm
January 13, 2008, 03:02 PM
I've been reading this off and on for a bit

so here's my list

1)MP-18 too late to help Germans in WWI but helped to develop what later became the storm tactics/blitzkreig

direct descendants

MP-38/40, Lancashire (?)


2)Thompson M1a1
final military 'gangster gun' reliable, hard hitting and user friendly. Perhaps the gold standard subgun til the UZI Direct, descendant M3 Greasegun.

3)Sten Brit copy of the MP-40 that armed their efforts between Dunkirk and Normandy

4)Soumi/PPSH second only to Thompson is reliability

5)UZI, 9mm reliable, tough and maximized user friendly.

BlindJustice
January 13, 2008, 04:42 PM
Before I read the rest of the thread I would say

Thompson 1921 - nice hard hitting addition to any rifle squad.
Schmeiser MP 38/40
Uzi - native born Israeli supplemented arrmy troops
othewise armed with FALs
Tokarov PPsh - reliable and used by the enemy - high praise
Sten - cheap and mass produced and unlike the
USA M3 grease gun it worked

I think past WWII with the exception being the Uzi,
the Sub MG has been surpassed in usage & performance
by the Assault rifle.

amprecon
January 13, 2008, 05:31 PM
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=71077&stc=1&d=1200259627
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=71078&stc=1&d=1200259672
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=71079&stc=1&d=1200259744
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=71080&stc=1&d=1200259786
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=71081&stc=1&d=1200259848

1200 meters
January 13, 2008, 05:48 PM
I think the thread is on submachine guns, and no one has remembered the Swedish-K use by a lot of SF soldiers in Vietnam. :uhoh:

glocking26
January 13, 2008, 09:05 PM
1. uzi
2. uzi
3. uzi
4. uzi
5. uzl
Yes, I own one.
Mike:)

amprecon
January 22, 2008, 01:18 PM
The Swedish-K was to be #6 :)

Just Jim
January 22, 2008, 01:37 PM
Thompson

MP40

Uzi

H&K MP5

H&K UMP 45

jj

Cosmoline
January 22, 2008, 01:41 PM
one of the officers incharge of evaluating captured enemy automatic weapons in WW2

There are very, very few military tasks I would have wanted to take on during WWII, but that there is one of them.

foob
January 22, 2008, 04:48 PM
After reading every post, all I can say is

All the Thompson has going for it is nationalism, it was heavy overcomplicated (Blish lock, anybody?) and hideously expensive.

Everybody picks the thompson but adds some disclaimer.

GunTech
January 22, 2008, 06:25 PM
The M1A1 Thomson dispensed with all the fancy and unnecessary. But it was still heavy and expensive and was replaced with the M3.

What you list as top five depends on your definition of 'top'.


Clearly, from a historical standpoint the Villar Perosa is on the list as the first true SMG, predating the Thompson by several years. The Bergman MP-18 probably deserves the title as first true SMG. The MP-38/40 and the Sten represent the innovation of mass produced, stamped SMGs and were made in huge numbers. One could argue that the PPSh also falls into this category

So I list:

Villar Perosa
Mp18
Thompson
MP-38/40
Sten


The Uzi was just a repackaging of a Czech design (CZ-23 IIRC), and had no new or innovative features. The much favored MP-5 was just a redesign of HK's center fire rifles to use the same delayed locking system. It actually had more recoil than traditional open-bolt, API SMGs and even HK eventually abandoned the design.

hso
January 22, 2008, 08:23 PM
I've got to agree. The Suomi SMG was probably used to greater battlefield effect than any other SMG.

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