Help with musket cap


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rmkey
January 3, 2008, 06:44 PM
I have a Cabelas Hawken. It just ( no 11 cap ) doesn't work well with 777. Where can I get a musket cap replacement for the nipple???? Miserable thing shoots into the same hole at 25 yards over and over and over but does not always go bang!

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4v50 Gary
January 3, 2008, 08:07 PM
You can try Dixie Gun Works, but I'd try a different nipple first. You might even want to drill out the existing nipple just a tad bit (from inside).

dwave
January 3, 2008, 08:12 PM
www.cainsoutdoor.com (http://www.cainsoutdoor.com)

They have Musket nipples. I got one from them for my Pedersoli Frontier rifle.

Steve499
January 4, 2008, 08:51 AM
I have one rifle which misfires if I load it with the hammer down but will fire every time if it is on half cock during loading. I guess seating the bullet with the nipple open allows powder to be blown farther into the nipple by the compressing air. The rifle already uses a musket cap so that factor isn't in play. May not be your problem at all, just something to consider.

Steve

Pancho
January 4, 2008, 11:47 AM
Steve's got a point but changing over to musket caps will have more advantages than just hotter fire. Musket caps are just easier to handle and the top hat musket caps are easier to remove if not fired.

Macmac
January 4, 2008, 05:07 PM
Steve is that rifle a "Patent Breech" by any chance?

I don't shoot many cap lock rifles, but there was a custom built Hot Flash nipple that fit TC guns. Are these threads SAE or metric? I might be wrong, but if they are SAE could they be 1/4-20 thread?

Is the nipple in question drilled out from the underside?

Pancho
January 4, 2008, 11:28 PM
Macmac, TC guns are 1/4-28.

Steve499
January 5, 2008, 10:44 AM
Steve is that rifle a "Patent Breech" by any chance?


I don't know what specifically constitutes a patent breech so I can't say. The rifle is a Euroarms .451 Volunteer rifle. It has a custom platinum lined replacement nipple which I installed before even shooting it with the original nipple. As long as I remove the spent cap and half cock the hammer before loading, we get along fine but you can snap caps all day otherwise without success.

Steve

MCgunner
January 5, 2008, 10:52 AM
I converted my Cabela's Hawken Hunter Carbine to small rifle magnum primers with a little adapter that replaces the nipple and is sealed with an O ring such as to be relatively water resistant. It goes bang with no hang fires, now. However, I've thought about drilling out that nipple a tad. But, the primer adapter is more practical for hunting.

I've looked into it and that primer adapter is no longer available. Sorry. :D

Macmac
January 5, 2008, 11:58 AM
Ah 1/4-28... Been awhile since I have seen threads on one.. I have no idea about a Cabela's, which might be metric. I was thinking if it turned out to be unobtainium, that with a stainless bolt to match threads, any half decent machinist could produce a nipple in an hour.

Is it Uncle Mike's brand with that Hot Flash nipple? There were over bored on the underside, and had a curious cross drilling where the cap sat, said to cause pressure relief. I would have no idea if that part worked and so were true.

Steve, One way of a few ways to tell if your gun has a Patent breech system, is to mount a too small for bore size bullet pulling jag, so no brass near to bore size protecter will interfear. Then see if you can feel the breech face and as you center the rod and jag puller feel if the rod drops a little more into a hole, deeper than the breech block face.

Another way, BEING 110% sure the gun ISN"T Loaded is to mess about with a flash light and look.

Another is pull the clean out Snail Screw and place a pipe cleaner in the holes so far as you can slide it easy. Then run patched cleaning jag, down the bore and see if the pipe cleaner gets stuck, for so long and you push the ram rod hard enough to hold the pipe cleaner trapped.
If you CAN'T Trap the pipe cleaner you have a Patent Breech.

A Patent Breech is machined into the Breech Block, and so is a reduced as to compared with the bore size opening in the Breech Block. When you load a gun that has this most of the powder gets in this smaller than bore size hole machined into the Breech Block, and a proper load seats the projectile on powder just ahead of the breech face.

Having a Patent Breech is important to know, because IF you have one and don't know it you won't clean it. Cleaning one has a few more details.

I have no idea if your gun does or not.

Pancho
January 5, 2008, 01:49 PM
If I remember right I think the Spanish use one metric thread and the Italians use another. If anyone can explain it further I'd really like to know.

Macmac
January 5, 2008, 03:39 PM
Pancho metric thread is standard, like American SAE it has course and fine pitches. Most gun threads are fine threads, but I thought I had once seen 1/4-20 on a nipple thread somewhere.. So the possibles are different diameters as well as different pitch. There are more choices in metric since bolts are made 1 mm apart at times. Standard bolts are usually even numbers 6,8, 10 in shank dia... However there are also 5,7,9 as well, which we don't really have much of any more. We did have bolts once in 32nd" which became odd sizes.

Pancho
January 5, 2008, 11:13 PM
Mac, You are right about the diameter but I seem to remember that the pitch was different for the Spanish and the Italian nipples.
Years ago I had a sports car repair shop and I specialized in Alfa Romeo , Fiats and Lancia. When the Jap cars started to come in they different pitches for their coarse and fine threads but of course they were all metric.
being a british bike ridder just feel lucky we didn't get whetworth fasteners.

Pancho
January 5, 2008, 11:33 PM
Mcgunner, The most helpful people I ran into what
s at Gander Mountain. I brought the gun in with my nipple wrench and they let me open packages and try until I found the one that fit. I've never regretted it.Made sure you get the tophat style they give you a flange to help with the capping and de-capping. Some companies make a musket cap with no flange. It looks like a monster #11. It has no handling advantage but will shoot lots of fire.
To confuse us even more. The manufactures have come up with weakend 209primers. It seems the typical shotgun primer is too hot and will blow the powder then burn it. I feel like a small mouth bass happy as a clam until I see this whirling clanging chartruese abortion and I can keep my eyes of it. Soon it just pisses me of and I hit out of pure meaness and BANG! I'm flopping on the floor of tHe boat.

Macmac
January 6, 2008, 11:56 AM
Pancho, I can't recall different threads, other than pitch, to pretty much mean course and fine. I have a standard metric tap and die set, which pretty well does it all for bikes and cars.. meaning there is no taps and dies over 14 mm diameter, which converts to apx 9/16" for a rough SAE size.

I have brit standard wrenches, those are not used much these days. The most uses I got from them were on older English cars and bikes of course, but it seems for a very long time after these were supposed to be gone fuel inlet (needles and seat) must have be collecting dust on shelves in England as Volvo used these on pre B-16 engines, the B-16 , B-18, and B-20 until the fist Bosche injection came to be as D-Jetronic in 1969, when both the last of the 122 Amazon series looking like a little Willies car, and the first 140 series were both made in that same year.

I hated Fiat, didn't like Lancia much, but that Alfa was way cool.

One of my evil bastard tricks with the MG-A was to allow a customer a test drive, driving, so I could step on the throttle rod which crossed the fire wall on for America made MG-A's. I would sit there all innocent like, and speed the car up.. Watching folks turm medium gray was kinda fun for me back then.

Pancho
January 6, 2008, 02:53 PM
Good God Mac, Steve Heisman, my best friend , used to do that to me back in 1964 with my 1960 MGA 1600. Like to give my 16 year old heart an attack.

Macmac
January 6, 2008, 07:41 PM
Oh I had "good customer's" the ones that thought nothing of botherin' on days off. They would call me at home and if I picked up they knew I would come. On one I went to fix an over heating jag xke type. The customer told me he thought the T stat went tits up, so I brought one, but as it turned out that gasket went missing. No big deal as I had the box, but the look on that guys face was pricless as he watched me make a gasket of it..

I still have an exhaust whistle tha sounds like the whole flock of crows.. I had a "customer" who would leave my shop to have work checked out at another shop. We 2 shops figured that out, and decided to have a little fun.

So after the guy complained about the noise, and I told the crew to be silent, that customer went to the next shop, but not before I could call.

That guy also played along and said he couldn't hear it, but did remove it, and the whistle got sent back in the next parts truck, where we did again.

You can bet all the wacko's found me! There was another with a bimmer, who fretted over miles per gallon and drove me nuts! So I did what I always do a frigged with him. At night I would go either steal fuel or add fuel, either way he was in to have words.. It was I am getting 400 miles per gallon or 14! Well one way he was happy and the other way he was not.

I got lots more of those tales.. We really need a liars bench round these parts...

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