[Nightcrawler]

Historically in the United States, semiautomatic pistols were never as popular as revolvers up until the "WunderNine" craze of the 1980s.

From what I can tell, generally the only common semiauto before 1980 was the 1911.

Is this true or not? Say you walked into a gun store in 1965. What kind of self-loaders would've been on the shelves?

What about 1945?

1930?

[Erik Jensen]

hmm... well, I know that Luger P08's were pretty popular in the '20's-'30's.. other than that, maybe the occasional Mauser Broomhandle, Colt 1903, or Baby Browning.

[ACP230]

I saw lots of Lugers in a military surplus store in Minneapolis, Minnesota right around that time.

I never saw one but a "wonder nine" made by the French arms maker MAB was advertised in the gun mags then. It was a big duty-type pistol with 15 shot magazines.

Many European pistols in 9mm, .380 and .32 were sold by mail order before 1968.

[mete]

For serious guns there would be the 1911 and the BHP. For lesser guns various 380, 32 and 25 s. By the way in those days you often saw a comment in gun magazines that you should not attempt to reload autos, that wa s only for the experts. Also handgun hunting was rare and there wasn't all that much interest in self defense. In the next few years the crime rate went up by double digits each year. that started a great interest in SD . More was done with handguns in every way, SD ,hunting , and target shooting.

[Spackler]

You could have picked up a S&W Model 39 in '65.

[Mike Irwin]

In the 1930s Browning's small "pocket pistols" in .25, 32, and .380 were HUGELY popular in the United States, most with the Colt trademark due to an agreement between Colt, which had US rights, and FN, which had European rights.

Colt also had the .22 Woodsman, which was a solid seller.

Remington and Savage also had decent market share with their semi-auto offerings in .32 and .380. Remington's Model 51 gave Colt a real run for its money in the .380s.

S&W never really entered the semi-auto market prior to WW II. They did have a Clement-designed gun chambered in .35 S&W, really just a slightly modified .32 auto. It didn't do well, and the gun was later offered in .32.

High Standard was making .22s in the 1930s, and those proved to be popular with the competition crowd.

As noted, Lugers, imported exclusively by Stoeger, were also pretty popular and served to introduce the shooting public to the 9mm round.


In 1945 the choices would have been about the same, but given the pressure of World War II, not many new firearms designs were coming out.

Step up to the middle 1950s, and the semi-auto starts to re-emerge, especially in the WW II surplus market. Lots of surplus Lugers, Mausers, Walthers, Nambus, etc., were sold on the surplus market.

Also, S&W introduced the first of its semi-auto centerfires, the 39, in 1954, and it saw OK market success. The Model 41, in .22 designed for the competitive set, was introduced in 1957 and immediately made a splash.

[BigG]

Nightcrawler, to cut to the chase, your assumption is pretty much on target that the Colt Government 45 ACP was the only commonly available commercial centerfire autoloading pistol of any consequence. As others noted, there were other autos available but mostly 22 rimfire, military surplus, war trophys, and some commercial pocket pistols in the punier chamberings.

[Majic]

Far more of the "Punier" chambered semi-autos were in the pockets of everyday citizens then some beleive and they did their respective jobs very well. In those days the US had no use for anything metric and the most servicable caliber was the .38sp. The .45acp was offered in full sized service pistols, but the .380s and .32s thrived in pockets.
Concealment back then had the same priorites as they do today. Most 9mm (which weren't appreciated in the US) and .45acp were military service rounds that was found in full sized pistols. The .32s and .380s were built as compact models.

[dsk]

Prior to the 1980's the revolver was king. Most gunshops had tons of revolvers but very few semi-autos, except for a few 1911s and various pocket autos.

[BigG]

Duh. :neener:

[Mike Irwin]

"...your assumption is pretty much on target that the Colt Government 45 ACP was the only commonly available commercial centerfire autoloading pistol of any consequence."


Say what?

Colt sold roughly 10 times the number of .380s on the US civilian market in the United States than it did .45s prior to WW II. The same with .25s and .32s. Combined, their market share compared to the .45 was MASSIVE.

Contrary to popular belief, in which every man, woman, child, dog, cat, and gopher carried a brace of highly customized .45 ACPs, it simply wasn't a big seller for the company until well AFTER World War II.

The fact that they were chambered for less powerful cartridges doesn't factor into the original question.

[BigG]

... of any consequence Your prattling to the contrary notwithstanding, Mr. Irwin. Thought you were going away. Bu-bye!

[SelfProclaimedExpert]

the Colt Government 45 ACP was the only commonly available commercial centerfire autoloading pistol of any consequence

Yeah, G. Not sure where you're getting this from. Starting around 1905 or so, pocket autos became hugely popular, and remained so until WWII. Add to that all the old compacts in .380 and .32 that Colt and others sold.

Just watch some old detective movies from the '30s. Half the armed characters will have a variety of slim autoloaders. That isn't just movie magic, it's a fair characterization of the time.

CCWs of that age would really be surprised at the iron we commonly lug around today. I guess we become myopic and assume those people carried guns that we would find acceptable, and there weren't many, then.

[Majic]

Today and yesteryear people have been maimed and or killed by the "punier" cartridges. To say that is of no consequence shows lack of thought. Life today has given us many improvements over the past, but the human anatomy has stayed the same.
Are those who look down their collective noses at the smaller calibers willing to stand and take a shot from one to validate their perspective? Let's see the big man who will take a center mass shot from the non-consequencial puny cartridges for the sake of science.

[Mike Irwin]

"Your prattling to the contrary notwithstanding, Mr. Irwin. Thought you were going away. Bu-bye!"

I'm back, and with a vengeance.

It's curious that you claim that I'm prattling when the only nonsensical statement made in this thread was in your post.

OOPS, I guess I forgot that the Colt .45 is the ONE TRUE GUN, the Holy Shooting Iron, the Excaligat, the Alpha and the Omega...

:rolleyes:

[BigG]

:uhoh: Historically in the United States, semiautomatic pistols were never as popular as revolvers up until the "WunderNine" craze of the 1980s.

From what I can tell, generally the only common semiauto before 1980 was the 1911.

If we examine the question Nightcrawler asked, he was looking for a belt pistol like a "wondernine," Glock, Sig, Beretta, etc., comparable to a Colt Government Model .45.

I see no question if there were other pistols available in .32 or .380 or .25 or .22 LR. I think Nightcrawler knows there were small vestpocket automatics available since the first decade of the 20th century. I sure do, but I answered his question. The .45 Auto was about the only thing of any consequence (i.e., comparable to a 9mm Luger) available prior to the advent of the wondernine around 1985. Sorry if that offends you!

:rolleyes:

[prisoner6]

Historically in the United States, semiautomatic pistols were never as popular as revolvers up until the "WunderNine" craze of the 1980s.

I'm sorry, I see no limitation in this quote to belt pistols or service size pistols. The only qualification in the original post was "semiautomatic" or "selfloader". No caliber designations either way. By those standards I belive Mr. Irwin provided information relevant to the post quite well.

[Majic]

Considering some of the ages of people here, some know nothing of handguns prior to the wundernine age. You were the one who assumed he was talking about full sized service pistols. His question only asked of semi-auto pistols.

[Mike Irwin]

Where are you coming up with this limitation to belt-sized pistols?

There is absolutely NOTHING in Nightcrawler's post to suggest that.

This is a pretty clear question...

"Say you walked into a gun store in 1965. What kind of self-loaders would've been on the shelves? What about 1945? 1930?"

It doesn't say "What kind of .45s," "What kind of full-sized semi-autos," "What kind of American-made,"


You're right, reading is fundamental, but COMPREHENSION is everything, and at that it appears that you've failed.

Oh, and by the way. The .38 Super was a fairly popular seller in the 1930s, as well.

[TonyB]

Now boys.......don't make me come back there!!
My Grand father had a bunch of auto's........nothing bigger than 32......all from the early 1900's......but I think he "found " them among his not so reputable friends......:cool:

[AZ Jeff]

The original poster asked what sort of autoloaders would one have seen in a gunshop in 1-9-6-5. That's post-WW2, so discussions of what was around PRIOR to WW2 is not answering the question that was raised.

In the 1960's, if one wanted a centerfire autoloader, the M1911 was the most common offering. S&W had their M39, but that was perceived by many to be an oddity, much like the Walther P-38, with it's hammer drop safety and double action trigger.

War surplus Radoms, Lugers, and Lahti's could also be had, but that's not new production.

The only centerfire autoloader that was around to give the M1911 any competition was the Browning HP, but that was in that weird European caliber of "9mm Luger".

I remember when the Illinois State Police announced they were switching to the S&W M39 in 1968 (or thereabouts). It created quite a stir, for a number of reasons. What it ALSO did was to open the door to the road to all the wondernines that came in the 1980's.

[prisoner6]

The original poster asked what sort of autoloaders would one have seen in a gunshop in 1-9-6-5. That's post-WW2, so discussions of what was around PRIOR to WW2 is not answering the question that was raised.

I believe below that he also asked for the same information for the years of 1945 and 1930. Therefore the other answers were also relevant. I don't understand what causes this subject to be so controversial. It seemed like a nice little nostalgic question on past handgun trends and somehow morphed into something more. It was a mere request for information, not a slight on the 1911.

[AZ Jeff]

"I believe below that he also asked for the same information for the years of 1945 and 1930. Therefore the other answers were also relevant."

I stand corrected, and poster "prisoner6" is right. Unfortunately, I am not old enough to remember buying firearms in the 1950's or before. I suspect the 1950's was probably similar to the 1960's, based on stories my uncle and grandfather told me.

The 'map' before WW2 was probably a whole lot different. Others have filled in some history on that period, I trust their recollections are probably pretty accurate, given what I know of the period right after the War.

[BigG]

Leaving the circle jerk. :rolleyes:

[BluesBear]

1967 was the year that my father detemined that I was old enough to accompany him regularry to the gunshops. In fact we often made a day of it checking out several shops on Saturdays. I realize that Louisville Kentucky in the 1960's still wasn't considered a major metropolis on the cutting edge but there was still a lot of variety.

I remember seeing a matched-cased set of browning handguns, the Baby .25, the pocket .380 and the 9mm Hi-Power at Allied-Sutcliffs. I also recall seeing the Beretta Brigadier 9mm and smaller .380 quite often as well as their little .25 and .22short SA Jetfires with the tipup barrels.

Of couse I remember the Colt Government in .45 and .38 Super and the Lightweight Commander in .45, .38 super and 9mm. Don't forget the Gold Cup in .45 and .38 Special wadcutter. Colt also had about 3 or 4 various Woodsman models back then as well as the little .22short and .25 outside hammer models.

S&W had the 9mm Model 39 as well as at least 2 .22 models. I think the awful pocket sized Model 62(?) .22 auto with the horrible grip was around that time also. (I remember seeing one nickle plated with PINK grips!)

Llama had their 1911 style pistols in .45, .38 Super and 9mm with that funny little vent rib on them. They also had smaller .32 & .380's that looked like a shrunken 1911.

Also there were full sized Star auto's I recall a Model B and a Model C.

Walther was alive and well with the P-38 in both Steel and Aluminum frame. I remember lusting over a .380 PP and it's smaller brother the PPK both also available in .32 & .22. (This was before the GCA68 and the resulting PPK/s) I seem toi recall a .22 of some kind from them as well.

High Standard had a BUNCH of .22 pistols. There were two different grip angles, several different barrel lengths and even .22 short models.

Ruger was making the .22 auto that everyone wanted. (After figuring how many newspapers I'd have to sell to be able to afford the $49 price of a new one I ended up buying a used Bearcat instead.)

I even remember seeing one of the ellusive SIG target model 9mm's I remember the price was OBSCENE at the time.

Erma was making the .22 Luger and the Baby in .32 and/or .380.

Stoger was making a .22 caliber monstrosity that they were calling a Luger.

Astra was still making good inexpensive autos in several calibers.

And that's just the NEW automatics I can recall off the top of my head. I am sure I have missed a few and there were a LOT of used autos available.

Every shop had a used Colt Pocket or Remington 51 or two. The Savage was less common but still not a suprise to find. Real Lugars and WWII P-38's were popping up occasionally as people cleaned out their closets. I even recall seeing a few of the JP Sauer 38H's like my dad brought back from Berlin.

.25 automatics in all shapes and sizes were around in big numbers but they were considered a "woman's gun" by everyone I knew back then.


Yeah the revolver was still king back in 1967 but to say that the Colt 1911 auto was about the only thing seen before the wondernines is, as my Grandfather would have said, Poppycock.

[Mike Irwin]

That was certainly intelligent, BigG.

At least be man enough to admit that you read something into the question that simply wasn't there.

[AZ Jeff]

Staying for a minute on memory lane (and your memory is obviously better than mine) from a statistical perspective, how often did you see the Astra's, big Walthers, SIG's, and Llamas, compared to the Colts and Brownings.

My recollection is that they were seen, on occasion, but the Colts and Smiths outnumbered the others by a ratio of 3 to one or better. (That's my recollection from northern Illinois in the late 1960's.)

[Dr.Rob]

Lets keep it civil guys.

I find it fascinating just by looking at Colt's blue book that 572,000 colt vest pocket .25s that were made, and production only really stopped because of WW2.

Thats a LOT of pistols.

Savage and Remington also had a number of early 32 and 380's.

We had a similar "when did the wondernine really take off" thread that got a lot of folks riled about what was available when. Post ww 2 there were certainly more 9mms around, but prewar, just by numbers alone (again from the blue book) Colt pocket models were the most common pistol you'd see. By 1942 only 208,000 1911 's were made for the civilian market.

Post war it gets muddier. a lot muddier. only 85,000 more 1911s C models were made between 1946-1965. There were a LOT more revolvers on the market for sure. Pitch in commanders etc you are still looking at 100k new colt autos in various calibers in that time frame. only 148,000 38 supers were made by 1965 total, 14,700 gold cups by 1965, and 45,000 commanders. there were still more pre war Colt 25's made than ALL those.

As to when Surplus GI 45's started coming on the market someone more knowledgable than me can please speak up.

I recall seeing ads for Lugers imported by stoeger and even before WW2 it was possible to buy a Luger here commercially. (in reprints of GunDigest)

[Mike Irwin]

Add to that I believe another nearly 600K Model 1903s in .32 ACP, and 140,000 M1908s in .380, that's over 1 million guns, compared to about 150,000 commercial 1911s in .45 made for the civimarket.

[SelfProclaimedExpert]

Wow, BigG certainly knows how to win friends and impress people. I'll take his posts with a grain of salt, thank you.


I found a gunsmith book from the fifties once. After the author got done with reliabilty for the 1911, he moved on to guns with a potential for accuracy. Apparently, there were enough Lugers floating around that some smiths were setting them up for target work. Interesting reading.

[Mike Irwin]

Done right the Luger is capable of some frighteningly good accuracy.

[BluesBear]

Jeff,

I only recall seeing only one big SIG back then. I was suprised to see it because up until then I had only read about in in Jeff Cooper articles. They were very expensive.

I always saw more big Llamas and Stars than Colts, and Hi-Powers were very few and far between. Revolvers were still bigger sellers back then, mostly .38 special and .22 rimfire.

I recall seeing a lot of the small Llamas, Astras and even Walthers though.

I'd say in my neck of the woods you'd see about a 4:1 ratio of revolvers vs automatics in anything above a .22. .22 Automatics were at least as, if not more, popular than .22 revolvers at that time.

[c_yeager]

Not to hijack this thread but, has there been a noticable imporvement in gun-leather (holster designs and materials) that would account for the increased popularity of larger pistols? I mean if all i had was a pocket id be a big fan of the pocket pistols as well.

[Mike Irwin]

I'd say not really, Cyeager.

There was some really fine holster designs available for semi-autos -- belt, shoulder, etc. -- a long time ago.

I saw a very interesting holster some years ago that the owner said his Grandfather used in the 1920s and 1930s. It was a belt holster set up in a horizontal cross-draw fashion, with a slight upward cant. He had a picture of his Grandfather wearing it with a 1911 in it.

It was very well made and was still in good condition. Probably been restitched a couple of times, though. No maker's name or other identifying information on it, so it could have been a one off, or it could have been commercial.

[SelfProclaimedExpert]

I think police retension holsters have received alot of attention. But really, how much development should holsters require?

[Dr.Rob]

Ok my bad... I posted #s for 32's instead of 25's

Pre ww2 there were 540,000 Colt 32's, 132,000 Colt 380's and 409,000 Colt .25s. thats a whole LOT of pocket pistols.