[Gunther]

Back when I started it was colt or s&w period. Now colt is almost nonexistent and s&w is trying to come back from years of mismanagement etc. Ruger has hung in there but they are just now coming out with a polymer 9mm- 27 years after Glock. 90% of police carry foreign guns (Glock or Beretta or Sig). The bulk of the militarys guns are being made by FN. Is this just more outsourcing/globalism or has the US gun manufacturers lost something? I worry for the future when I see youngesters with foreign cars and foriegn guns and they tell you USA stuff is junk. Well now I have depressed myself what do you all think?

[ARTJR338WM]

Good question. I have no answers for you. All of my long guns are US made save for one, but 1/3 of my hand guns were made other than US. I think it may come down to US handgun makers stoped making what we wanted, Pythons, Diamond backs, and never made then wated or waited to long to make what we realy wanted, polymer fraimed autos. I also might think it is cost to. I could not buy a US made 1911 that does everything my XD45 Tacticle does for less than 1/2 more the money and not near the capacity. Also semi-autos are more popular than wheel guns and besides the 1911, what realy popular auto does the US make? I know S&W makes some great autos but just recently broke into the polymer market, and S&W has had a hard time comming back from gross mismanagement. Alot of people I know boycotted S&W after thay sighned off on that agreement when klinton was in power. Also Kahr is a awesome CC US made auto.

I know i try to buy all my guns US made and have done quite well doing so.

[littlegator]

This was one of the big tiebreakers for me when I bought the M&P in 2007. There were alot of alternatives at the time. I'm glad S&W is getting their sh** back together and selling the good stuff. I love my M&P and made the right choice.

[nwilliams]

The fact is many foreign countries makes some damn fine handguns. Sig, Glock, FN, H&K, Beretta to name a few.

We have some fine US makers as well, Ruger, Colt, Springfield, S&W and a few others.

There's a pretty good balance IMO between the number of US handgun makers and foreign ones. My collection comprises of a mix of both, a number of foreign made and number of US made. Honestly I tend to lean more towards the foreign made handguns, but remember also that some foreign gun companies now manufacture their guns here in the US. I'm big on the whole shop locally idea, but when it comes to firearms I don't discriminate:D

As far as other products go, things are being made more and more overseas its just a fact that we have to face. I know I buy many things that are made overseas, not because I want to, but because don't have much choice. I do have a choice with guns and cars and I have no problem with foreign guns and I'm a big fan of Japanese vehicles, I don't really feel guilty about either.

[serrano]

Outsourcing/globalism? Why would you say that? Just look at the product. Foreign makes offered better value for money in the firearms the market was buying.

That said, all my long guns are American - I'm looking for my first handgun and no American makes are on the short list.

[Ash]

Well, the Beretta, SIG, and FN firearms are made here. They are, quite literally, Made in the USA by US manufacturing plants on US soil. The owner of the plant, well, if that is what we go by Smith and Wesson was once owned by a British company.

Ash

[HZOX221]

FN and Beretta have US plants to manufacture firearms.

STI, Infinity and Kimber are US made.

I believe that Sigarms has US manufacturing as part of their line.

With the dollar to euro difference you are going to see more European companies moving production here.

[CWL]

We buy Glocks, other countries stand in line to buy F16s and missles from us, I have no problem with that.

[Christianninja]

Hi-Point is 100% American.

But then, everyone hates them...and I've never touched one...

(Not that I wouldn't if I had the chance.)

[Gunther]

Yeah guys I know they foreign companies have factories here. But the money from the guns we buy goes overseas. What happens when these companies don't like our politics or what we are doing in some other country and decide not to sell in the US. How would we be able to mount another WWII style build up. My point is I fear for the American firearms industry and the fact that some of you see nothing wrong with this or my use of the terms globalism/outsourcing show how conditioned we have become in such a short time span (20yrs) and how far gone the industry is as a whole. If the liberals get their way and in less than a year they might and the california style regulations continue it will be very easy to regulate to death the domestic firearms industry and the only game in town will be the foreign guns made here or not.

[mikec]

The US government owns the designs of the current weapons in service. If say the US and Belgium got into a spat and FN decided to close their facility here the Feds would just take it over and then get either S&W or Ruger or Colt to run it for them. They, the government, might try to sell the plant along with the contracts to the company picked to operate the facility.

[ReadyontheRight]

Well. Union and local pressure put the U.S. Winchester plant out of business.

Ruger is still U.S.A.

[Spyvie]

Every gun I own is made in the U.S.A., not that I necessarily had that in mind when I chose them. The slide on my FNP is clearly marked “FN USA Fredericksburg VA”.

I'm guessing Kel-Tek probably sells more handguns than Glock these days, just based on price (I have NO proof of this)

I am fixing to buy a CZ...

EDIT: I think my Buckmark is made here?

[xd45gaper]

shoot my glock was made in Georgia! and my SA XD was made in croatia imagine that! (scarasm off)

i guess you would call me the younger guy!? not sure im 25 i carry a S&W about 99.9% of the time and my glock the other .1%. I own 5 American Made firearms and 4 non american firearms (im including my SAXD because it says made in croatia on it, american owned yes amercian produced it was not) and the other 3 are a Glock, Benilli Nova, and a German K98 Mauser.

I own 2 foregin cars, Toyota's, great quality and great resale, they last forever and i like the looks of there vehicles. if an american car had those 4 qualitys i would have purchased one for my wifes vehicle. (Tacoma all the way for me lol)

Im not the type of guy that only buys foreign stuff because "america stuff is junk"(i see alot of them at work) i like to research my options and if something that was manufactured in say Italy is alot better than the same item manufactured in Arkansas but i have to pay a little more for the quality im going to purchase the item from Italy. Im all about American pride but im not going to spend my money on some junk just because it was made in the USA.

[Ash]

Heh, heh, heh, I'll take my 1996 Jeep Cherokee with 230,000 hard miles on it up against anything Toyota makes. Anecdotally, that Jeep outlasted our other forester's Toyota pickup in the same environment (though what kind of maintenance it saw, I cannot say, mine is well maintained). At, oh, 170,000 miles I decided to get another Jeep (in 2001 the Cherokee body was discontinued and replaced with the Liberty body, which is still called Cherokee in Europe). That Jeep now has more than 100,000 miles on it and is doing fine, while the 96 is getting even more abuse in the woods (though still properly maintained). Here she is, sitting on a sand bar by the Mississippi River near its mouth at Triumph/Buras Louisiana just after we finished a crossing to explore the Spanish ruins of Fort St. Philip.

[xd45gaper]

they are building a huge Toyota Plant in Mississippi ;)

[OH25shooter]

How would we be able to mount another WWII style build up.
In that regard, I believe Gen Patton said the M-1 Garand won WWll. IIRC, the Garand model may have been built in America, but it was designed by a Canadian.

[RussB]

Seems to me Mr Browning himself sold many of his designs abroad dating back over 100 years! Good 'Ol American capitolism at it's finest.

If there was only S&W and Colt to you "back in the day" then you must've lived in a bubble, because there were and still are a myriad of US firearms manufacturers.

[sturmgewehr]

In that regard, I believe Gen Patton said the M-1 Garand won WWll. IIRC, the Garand model may have been built in America, but it was designed by a Canadian.
While he was born in Canada, as a child he moved to rural Connecticut. He spent his youth and adulthood as an American citizen and probably remembered very little about his birth place. That makes him an American in my book. We're all immigrants or descendants of immigrants.

He died in 1974 in Springfield Mass, as an American.

[MCgunner]

I don't worry a lot about where it's made if it's a good gun for the money. That said, I have 7 Rugers, a kel tec, a smith and wesson, and some other American guns in my collection. I own three taurus revolvers, I guess my most numerous foreign made gun.

Ruger has hung in there but they are just now coming out with a polymer 9mm- 27 years after Glock.

The P95 has been around for 12 years now, Ruger's first polymer handgun. I had one for a while and it was a strong, accurate, well made firearm that was 100 percent functional like all the other Rugers I own. I only traded it at the time because I bought a P85 cheap with 15 round mags and couldn't get anything, but 10 round mags for the Ruger. If I was going to carry 10 rounds, the Kel Tec P11 made a lot more sense. I used that P85 for IDPA for a while, worked well.

[lee n. field]

Ruger has hung in there but they are just now coming out with a polymer 9mm- 27 years after Glock.

Ruger was late to the centerfire autoloader market. Everything they've brought out since the mid 1990s --the P95, P97 and P345 and now the SR9-- have all been polymer framed guns. I've read that the P89 isn't in the 2008 catalog, leaving the P90 as the only survivor of their early metal framed P series guns.

For Ruger's part, it looks like, once they decided to get into that market, they've been continuously developing product since.

---Edited to add

Just checked the 2008 catalog. The P89 is gone, P90 and P944 are still there, as is the newly redesigned P95.

[Pilot]

I agree with some of the others. Its not just firearms its a global economy. Gun companies are in business to make money, period. Business is a harsh reality and a balancing act. Beretta and Sig make many of their guns here in the U.S. for both economic reasons and government contractual requirements for U.S. production. Yes, they are foreign designs. Look at the U.S. versus foreign auto industry. Ford, GM and Chrysler are all sucking wind while Toyota and Honda are doing well. Toyota and Honda also assemble most of their American sold cars here in the U.S., but profits still flow back to Tokyo. At least they are employing American workers.

I think S&W, in general, stilll makes the best revolvers, and are now making excellent semiautos as well. Colt is making high quality firearms again, but its more of a boutique seller than mass supplier of firearms. Ruger is another top notch U.S. manfacturer. I still think the U.S. has a viable arms industry, but like many other manufacturers, the global economy has taken its toll.

[jakeswensonmt]

The dollar has been strong for a long time, which encourages imports.

That having been said, at this time I own many US made guns and exactly one non-US gun (a 1984 SIG which has sentimental value).

IMHO the American guns are just as well made as imports in the same price range, if not better. Plus, I want to support American workers and the American gun industry, and I don't intend to subsidize Europe and their pacifist/socialist, surrender-prone, anti-American, pro-Islam attitude.

[BlkHawk73]

My opinion...unions. Too many ppl with the "not my job" attitude unwilling to do anything above or beyond thier carved-in-stone job description unless heavily compensated for it. Add to that the ever continual demand for more more more by the employees while they expect to do less and less actual work. Can't blame manufacturing to go elsewhere. It's about staying in business and keeping prices at a level to stay in thier market.
Winchester/Olin was a perfect example of this.

[xd45gaper]

or union workers at GM!

[Run&Shoot]

The firearms industry isn't much different than other manufacturing in regards to foreign and domsetic production. many reasons lead to the current state of a multitude foreign manufacturers selling here:

1) The US is the #1 consumer and LEO market for firearms. Most manufacturers will eventually try to sell here to get in on the biggest piece of the worldwide pie.

2) "Free trade" makes it easier for foreign manufacturers to sell here, although I suspect it isn't necessarily as open to ours selling elsewhere.

3) With increased worldwide travel and shipment at cheaper costs, almost anyone can become a seller to the US market.

4) Foreign labor is often much cheaper than in the US. for example, part of our IT team in Brazil can hire top notch software consultants there at 1/3 the cost of similar talent here in the US. 4a) US labor costs have skyrocketed with mandated or negotiated health care and retirement benefits, which often are more than the actual cost of labor and materials for the real operation.

5) With the reduction in the cold war (did we really eliminate it?) many countries no longer have a high volume demand by their own military, or are no longer isolated behind the Iron Curtain. So theylook to the US as a new market to break into.

What is very interesting is that so many smaller manufacturers of firearms are thriving in the US. In most industries the large corporations encourage increased regulation and "entry barriers" that make it increasingly more difficult for the small business to operate and survive. Big business likes big government. Small businesses cannot afford the increased overhead to comply with government regulations and reporting requirements. this leads eventually to just a few very large competitors (certainly not a cartel, right?) that sell worldwide. Look at health care, autos, electronics, etc.

Is it because firearms have special protection under the 2nd Ammendment that allows many small firms to succeed without? I don't know why, but it seems odd, and refreshing, that firearms manufacturing so far has not been regulated into something that only six huge multinationals can still afford to operate.

If you really want to support freedom, then perhaps we should buy from our smaller independent US manufacturers. Winchester and Remington are owned by large corps, so maybe Savage and Ruger would be better alternatives (too bad about Marlin being bought by Remington!). Not sure which hanfgun manufacturers would fall into the "small independent US" category.

Ruger, Kel-tec, I guess S&W does now, maybe Springfield Armory, Kimber. Though some favorites like Beretta, FN, Browning, H&K would be in the multinationalist category. Even though not owned in the US, some foreign firms are smaller and more independent, and often manufacture popular models in the US such as Glock, maybe SIG, Taurus, etc.

Thinking about this I would favor small firm over a multinational, even if the small firm were foriegn and the multinational was US. Multinationals really have zero allegiance to their home country, so being based in the US may not mean much in terms of their politics, who they do business with, or where parts are made or assembled. But, you can almost be guaranteed that in the long run a multinational favors tight control of the masses and open access to cheap labor and ravenous consumer markets.

Gee, maybe we should start "socially responsible gun buying", that is, buy soon and buy often from your local independent firearms manufacturer!

[Prince Yamato]

Long live China North Industries!

[DMK]

We have some fine US makers as well, Ruger, Colt, Springfield, S&W and a few others. Springfield make be a US company, but the XD is made in Europe (Slovakia?), and the 1911 frames are made by Imbel in Brazil.

[Ash]

The XD is Croatian. Springfield makes long-arms (though they used to import a great many, including FAL's) but no handguns. And, given the rapid increase in communist China's economic power, Yamato can rest assured that NORINCO will continue to live quite well.

Ash

[btg3]

The USA enjoyed 3 decades of economic bliss following WWII. The rest of the world was bombed out and could hardly muster any significant global competition. During that time, US companies could grossly mis-manage and still succeed. But Europe and Asia got busy rebuilding their industrial base and by the mid 1970's the US started to get a reality check. In a nutshell, our highly vaunted accounting systems (Sloan, et. al.) give a distorted picture of our productiveness and quality -- thus we manage US business with bad information. Others on the planet have not been hamstrung with entrenched accounting ills and have used better accounting tools to successfully compete with the US. The US is responding, but it won't be quickly resolved. Culturally, we have enjoyed a time of ease and plenty and comparatively we have become lazy. Getting back to work will be painful and require better education -- thus we are headed for a shrinking middle class and wider separation between the haves and have-nots. This will happen regardless of who's control of our legislature, but liberal dominance would likely perpetuate rather than correct our cultural problems. The US will rebound, but the question is how quickly.

To dig deeper a good read is "Rebirth of Amercian Industry", William H. Waddell
http://www.amazon.com/review/product/0971243638/ref=dp_db_cm_cr_acr_txt?%5Fencoding=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

[doc2rn]

Foreign companies that are doing well make their products here in the US. Look at Honda and Toyota, both have plants here and both are doing great. Look at GM, Chrysler, and Ford who moved S. of the border and they are in trouble. My point is companies who outsourced to save a little lost alot of quality, and if Nafta gets repealed by the next President (please!) America may be able to avoid a recession. Not to mention put up barriers against the cheap chinese junk, what I wouldn't give to be able to buy Rubber Maid products again (thanks Walmart).
I buy Rugers! 1) they fit me 2) they are overbuilt 3) really good QC 4) they put the bullet where I aimed it. All but 2 of my guns are American, (Glock & Mossin). I dont feel really compelled to buy foreign and I do weigh all my purchases.
BTG3 has a point, but we rebuilt the factories and infrastructure to keep their (other contries) economy viable. Now our infrastructure is old and worn out so they outsource to the other countries. What I dont get is why we forgave them of their debt. Only Finland has ever repaid the US in full on an outstanding debt.

[kamagong]

Nothing wrong with US handguns. I own a Ruger Mark III, a Kimber Custom II, a Les Baer Concept II and am waiting on a Springfield Custom Carry. The three I have now are all well made, reliable, and accurate. What else do you want?

[JohnBT]

What else? My Rohrbaugh of course - American made, too.

And a Freedom Arms.

And a US Fire Arms www.usfirearms.com

And maybe even one Kahr. ;)

A Wilson and a Brown, too.

John

[JohnBT]

And a Caspian. Or maybe just one or two of every frame and slide combination.

[GTSteve03]

Let's see... Beretta started making the first guns oh, about five hundred years ago. Considering Italy, Germany and Austria (home of Beretta, HK, Sig, and Glock) have been fighting each other on and off for the last 500 years, I would say they have a pretty good track record of making quality weapons.

Sorry, but even the oldest US gun company, Remington, has been around less than 200 years. I'm a big fan of US made but for firearms, it seems like the Europeans really know their stuff.

[Ash]

Europe? Like FN from Belgium, right? Oh, but wait, what about those Belgian suicide special revolvers and cheap shotguns of the 1800's and early 1900's? To long ago, right? Okay, then Germany. Yeah, like Rohm (RG) and early Weirarchs, you know, the infamous zinc-framed Saturday Night Specials that could not hold timing. Oh yeah, plus those dangerously cheap Single Action Army copies from the 1960's. (And, of course, German Automobile Engineering - the Trabant.) And there's that old civilization in Spain that brought us the multitude of Eibar pistols, some being great some being absolute crap. And while it is true Beretta hails from Italy, but Italy also produced the Brixia and Glisenti autos.

There is nothing genetic about the European ability to produce firearms, cars, or anything else. There have been plenty of turds and dangerous firearms emanating from there and sold here.

Ash

[JERRY]

depends on what you want out of a gun.....

the lowest cost, best performing guns are made elsewhere.....

[GTSteve03]

There is nothing genetic about the European ability to produce firearms, cars, or anything else. There have been plenty of turds and dangerous firearms emanating from there and sold here.
Were any of those weapons companies you listed ever used in any European army? I sure doubt it.

Companies like HK, SIG, Glock, FN, and Beretta get the military contracts because they know their stuff. When a government wants to defend itself, it goes to the guys that know how to do it right. And like I said, they've had 500 years to work on it.

[mikec]

And, of course, German Automobile Engineering - the Trabant.

A vehicle produced in a Communist country. It wasn't pretty or clean but according to some web searching they lasted a long time, +25 years.

[serrano]

Yeah guys I know they foreign companies have factories here. But the money from the guns we buy goes overseas.

Well, some of it goes to pay the salaries of the American workers in the US plants.


What happens when these companies don't like our politics or what we are doing in some other country and decide not to sell in the US. How would we be able to mount another WWII style build up.


Well, for the factories in the US, the Govt. would take them over...


My point is I fear for the American firearms industry and the fact that some of you see nothing wrong with this or my use of the terms globalism/outsourcing show how conditioned we have become in such a short time span (20yrs) and how far gone the industry is as a whole.

Globalism/outsourcing isn't 'bad' or 'good' in the same way a gun can't be 'evil'. Globalism/outsourcing is just a part of the modern economy, it's a result of competition and the pursuit of wealth - and if that's not American I don't know what is!


If the liberals get their way and in less than a year they might and the california style regulations continue it will be very easy to regulate to death the domestic firearms industry and the only game in town will be the foreign guns made here or not.


In this rather extreme scenario the only US firearms companies that would survive would be those with military contracts. A scary thought, but not a likely one in my opinion.

[Ash]

The Trabant was not a good car. Revisionism aside, they did not hold up at all. Some folks have a 1978 Monza still, but that hardly makes it a good car.

And to those who got a bit miffed about my post, beyond the fact that Glock has NO history before the 1980s beyond making tools, that H&K is a new concern, and platitudes aside about who the governments go to for the goods , my entire post was in response to the meaningless assumption that because our oldest company is a mere 180 years old, that we cannot possibly have the pedigree to produce arms.

This is, of course, patently absurd. All your companies listed are successful because of American innovation. From the earliest innovation that mean that America was producing muskets that were identical to each other and had parts interchangeability that no other nation could boast (Beretta's products at the time were 100% hand made, which meant parts could not be interchanged in the field) to the assembly line process to the basic design concepts that both Glock and H&K use in their pistols. Those are all American.

And, the lowest-priced best revolvers in the world are Rugers. The Ruger 22 automatics are also among the best and certainly are the longest lasting design out there, while at the same time being cheaper than the rest. S&W revolvers are the best revolvers in the world, save for hyper-expensive custom jobs. Ruger Autos are top-notch as well even if they are ugly.

Now, I am a CZ-75 guy. My only US auto is the Ruger 22. I have Colt revolvers. But the point that Europeans are better because they have been doing it longer is meanlingless. We taught them how to make arms cheaply and in large quantities. Of course, that is because many of their best minds came to America and figured it all out in the more fertile grounds available here.

But, if you want to go with pedigrees, then Colt is older than H&K and Glock combined and had cornered the market on government supply for decades. It is, therefore, certainly a more competent company, right? Remington was providing military arms to the World before FN was organized, before Gaston's dad was born, and before H&K emerged from the ashes of WWII. Therefore Remington's long arms are certainly supperior to those?

But, then, Beretta has been around a while, quite a long while. And of course their rifles are the best in the world and used by every military, right? Wait, no, they aren't. None of Italy's long arms have been adopted wide-spread.

But what is a fact is that many of these vaunted European companies have set up production in the US using, gasp of all gasps, US workers to build their firearms. When the US wanted military weapons, they went not to Europe, they went to Georgia.

The fact remains that the genetic argument is no good. That FN is doing so well is proof not of their pedigree, but of their management's unwillingness to become mired in stagnation like many companies, US and otherwise, happen. One of the greatest rifle manufacturing and designing companies in the world, Mauser, is gone (most Mausers made post WWII were actually made by Heym, most 98's were Czech or FN produced). Webley is gone. BSA is gone. These had true pedigrees, too, but could not keep up.

Ash

[Gunther]

Thanks Ash, there are a few of us left

[Jim K]

Just for info, immediately prior to WWII, there were 5 companies in the U.S. making handguns - Colt, S&W, High Standard, Iver Johnson, and Harrington & Richardson. The only importer of note was Stoeger, who brought in a few Lugers and other oddities every year.

Today it is difficult to be sure which companies still make their guns here, vs. those which import all or some of the line, but American companies would include Colt, S&W, Ruger, Springfield Armory, Kahr, Kel-Tec, High Point, Baer, Kimber, North American, USFA, Para-Ordnance, and Olympic. And the selection is vastly wider. Then there are the foreign companies making handguns here, like FNH, SIG, Walther, etc.

And of course, and in spite of the anti-gunners, more handguns are sold every year than the pre-war companies ever dreamed of. And they are often cheaper (adjusted for inflation), thanks in part to new manufacturing techniques. So I am not sure we are in such bad shape.

Jim

[crankshop1000]

One word... NAFTA. The stupidest idea ever put into effect.The basis for us becoming dependent on every third world country on earth for our essential items.We get wheat from China,garbage from Canada,oil from Arabia,water from France,guns from Brazil and the Phillipines and unemployment in Michigan.Passing NAFTA was like passing a law REQUIRING we buy something foreign over something domestic, just to make up for the "unfair wealth and standard of living" we have worked for over the years.We should all be ashamed of ourselves as Americans and give it all back.

[Ash]

Of course, NAFTA only applies to Canada and Mexico and Central America. As far as I know, only the Canadians manage to supply us with handguns. Nothing seems to come out of Mexico.

Brazil, Croatia, Austria, South Africa, Argentina, the Phillippines, and China are not a part of NAFTA as of course, they are not in North America.

Our demand for imported goods comes from our demand for cheaper products. I, personally, won't buy foreign tools or batteries. I also buy cars built in the US, though I have no problem with Toyota or Nissan as they purchase parts and supplies from many US firms.

I refuse to buy from China unless I have absolutely no choice - but I do like Chinese food.

Ash

[Run&Shoot]

Although NAFTA is not responsible for the global shift fo imports, it was the stepping stone to GATT and the WTO which are.

All of those regional and global trade agreements are about making sure multinational corporations have access to the cheapest labor and can ship those cheap products easily to the most profitable markets. It has nothing to do what is best for any of the individual countries involved.

which is why I am amazed that the US firearms industry is as varied as it is with so many small firms. Usually globalized trade forces the localized firms out and only a few huge firms can afford to compete on that global stage. Somehow the firearms industry seems to be taking advantage of those trade agreements while also being an anomaly to them. Any ideas why this is?

[Youngster]

I think at least some of the blame lies with the mechanically conservative American gun buyer, who's buying habits discouraged fresh ideas from the domestic gunmakers, who've now for the most part been playing catch-up since the '70s.