Light mounted on pistol Y/N


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KenW.
January 5, 2008, 11:38 AM
I'm an active member a police forum. Occassionally the topic of weapon-mounted lights comes up. Of course some are in favor and some are opposed.

I am opposed. It used to be a simple rule: You never point your gun at something you are not willing to destroy, and everytime you light up ANYTHING with your weapon-mounted light (be it a burglar, sofa, or a child who comes around a blind corner) you are pointing the muzzle at it.

Those in favor of the lights routinely say "If you don't wamt to shoot, just don't pull the trigger".

Our #2 guy in my agency doesn't want "loaded flashlights" being pointed around, and I'm with him. In 15 years of this work I haven't found a need for one. We were all taught to use a light in the support hand.

As for carrying two seperate lights, we cops already complain about the amount of things we have hanginmg off our belts.

What do the people here think?

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DMK
January 5, 2008, 12:40 PM
I'm not really a huge fan of a light mounted on a handgun. You lose a bunch of versatility in using the light when it's fixed to the gun.

That said, if you have a rail on your gun and carry a rail mount light, you can use it as a handheld light plus you also have the option to mount it on the gun if you did need your other hand.

Another thing that folks forget is a you don't have to point the light directly at something to ID it. A light mounted on a handgun held at low ready will give you plenty of light to see clearly out to ten yards or more.

So there really is no downside to a weapon mountable light. Just don't get caught in the rut, thinking that you have to mount the light just because you can. I'd leave that as an available option used for only specific circumstances, not SOP.

I don't see why you'd need to carry two lights, unless one is a big Maglight to use as an impact weapon.

weisse52
January 5, 2008, 12:41 PM
I keep one on my G21 for HD.

But, I also have a handheld one I carry as well. I understand the rule of not pointing at anything you do not want to shoot, but I live with my wife and two Great Danes. So if it is in my house I feel safe pointing my light at it. IF I did not have this setup I would not have a light on a gun.

I would ask, if you use the commonly held formats for pointing a hand-held light and a gun at the same time are you not doing the same thing? I understand that you can point the barrel down and not cover your target, but in my home if I am sure I have a badguy I want the fastest time to fire if necessary.

And to be clear, I would never carry outside my house with a light mounted.

SRT1
January 5, 2008, 01:14 PM
Never had a light on a weapon, never will have a light on a weapon. Never made sense to me why anyone would want to broadcast their exact location and posture to any opposing force. As long as you maintain your natural night vision in doing it, the lit weapons are the easiest ones to take out, and the first ones to shoot at. :scrutiny:

S&W620
January 5, 2008, 01:15 PM
Personally I am in favor of using them. I have a TLR-2 on my USP which is my HD gun.

While no one likes the idea of pointing a loaded weapon at a family member, pet, etc, I live alone with the exception of my girlfriend who stays from time to time in an apartment. Not knowing where the other person is or what's going on is not really an issue for me, so for me it works. It may not work for others in a different situation.

The other point that I think is key in this situation is that no one is going to blindly pull the trigger of a gun without knowing exactly what you are shooting at. Too many bad things can happen if you aren't EXACTLY sure what it is you are firing at so most folks would air on the side of caution (at least I hope so).

Another option that people seem to forget is that you don't HAVE to use the light. You are able to use a flashlight and do your thing, but if the need arises for you to have a free hand, the gun mounted light is then an alternative.

Just my opinion, YMMV.

SRT1
January 5, 2008, 01:19 PM
^^^^^^^^^^
Good points, and I'm not against a separate light source. When needed, I've laid my flashlight in a hallway and then backed/sidestepped away to both illuminate what's to my front, and cover any movements I make from well behind the light and covered.

KurtC
January 5, 2008, 02:57 PM
1. Weapon mount lights work extremely well when not mounted on the weapon. They are also more compact than hand held lights of similar strength. Best of both worlds.

2. Most quality weapon lights are available with a red filter to protect your night vision. Anything over 80 lumens works great with a red filter.

3. You do not point your weapon to light up an area. The ready position offers more than enough periferal light to illuminate a room, even with a filter.

W.E.G.
January 5, 2008, 03:13 PM
Due to lack of training for the rank-and-file, I think its a VERY bad idea for ordinary street cops to employ weapon-mounted lights.

I'm a former police officer.

Three members of my rookie class managed to shoot THEMSELVES before their probationary year ended. And that was with a revolver. My department routinely failed to arrange for even basic firearm requalification (once every 6 mos.) on the schedule prescribed in the General Orders. From what I saw at the requals, it was obvious that many of the officers had not even unloaded their revolvers since the previous requal. - let alone actually fired them.

Sad.

Half the cops I rode with had dead batteries in their flashlights.

Weapon-mounted lights are fine for entry teams, and whatever privileged/motivated characters get the training. I can see the brass' position that there has to be some uniformity to the equipment standards for the patrol division.

The_woodsman
February 4, 2008, 06:18 AM
There are too many advantages to 1913 lights not to have them. Guys who let their batteries die should probably not be in a patrol car, since be prepared should be the #1 go to rule.

USMCDK
February 4, 2008, 06:44 AM
I have a M2 UTL (Insight Technologies) light mounted on my H&K USP .45 and I like it. I works not only to illuminate and area or your target but you can use it as a flash type weapon to blind your opponent momentarily. One does make the good point "Never point you weapon at anything you do not intend to KILL, but the same goes if you don't want to shoot then DON'T. Further more like you said less heavy crap to carry, not only that but you can detach it and use it as a regular light that's not a big but with the same illum as the bigger ones.

possum
February 4, 2008, 06:49 AM
i use a weapon mounted light and a handheld light. just because the light is on the weapon and it is pointing at whatever way that dosen't mean that you have to or will shoot. i am confident in my abilities, and i have trigger disciplin, i have no issues with a weapon mounted light, but as batteries do die and as siuations do come un hinged in seconds. the hand held light is always a good choice as a back up or a primary. i am comfortable with either one.

USMCDK
February 4, 2008, 06:51 AM
hey possum how's it going. I have to agree with you on that one as well. Just as murphy's law expresses if it can go wrong it will.

Okiecruffler
February 4, 2008, 07:22 AM
I was brought up to not use the scope on my rifle as a spotting scope. I keep lights off my pistols for the same reason.

Mot45acp
February 5, 2008, 12:51 AM
I am not an operator/SWAT/ERT. But I am a Mall Ninja/arm chair commando with 3 kids.

In Mot's house the role of HD is supported by a G17 sandwiched between Mepros and a M6, housed in a custom made Bladetech.

Bumps in the night MUST be identified. Is that the boogieman or lil Mot 3 going potty?

The rocker switch also gives your trigger finger something to do. Do I search my house with it on? No. But those who have had to search their house in the wee hours mentally and physically nekid, know what its like to come across a closed door with a flashlight in one hand and pistola in the other.

USMCDK
February 5, 2008, 01:03 AM
see mot's got the idea that I have the rocker switch is ingenius. The light doesn't have to be on constantly, you can toggle it to the quickie side and get a flash of light the you can't get with most flash lights without hitting the button twice.

Just like the grenade... Flash BANG!!!! and the poor jerk that broke in is now just plain broke!!!

possum
February 5, 2008, 02:32 AM
i like weapon mounted lights as i said before, can you tell?

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a98/rollins_joshua/mclight2.jpg
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a98/rollins_joshua/combatready3.jpg
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a98/rollins_joshua/xdandglockreadytorock.jpg
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a98/rollins_joshua/ruger2.jpg

USMCDK
February 5, 2008, 02:38 AM
JHC that's alot of fire power. I only own 1 pistol. Well technically 2 because I bought the wifey a Walther P22

KenW.
February 5, 2008, 11:07 AM
Just got the word at yesterday's detective meeting. The Sheriff has officially said "NO" again to weapon-mounted lights.

He didn't need them when he was on the road...

He'd like our patrol guys to wear Class "A"s and ties too.:cuss:

PPGMD
February 5, 2008, 12:09 PM
Hmm you might want to go the route that someone on Officer.com did, he got the studies, and help prove that when used properly weapon mounted lights are a great tool. I think it was Houston PD (I'm not a member I just read the thread from a google link), he got only only weapon mounted light approved, but optics on patrol carbines IIRC.

RustyShackelford
February 5, 2008, 12:21 PM
I think you(as a veteran sworn LEO) make some valid points about weapon mounted flashlights, AKA: white lights but here is my input;

I see great use for some types of pistol/light sources in LE or lowlight home protection. In a real world home protection type incident it will be in the early morning hours, you may be very tired or not fully awake(unless the threat(s) are immediate :eek:). A bright powerful light would assist in clearly marking or maybe even blinding an attacker or group of attackers. When you are in that event you may or more than likely WILL have a phone in your hand calling 911. A weapon mounted white light would keep the criminal(s) visible with ease rather than you holding a phone, a loaded weapon and a flashlight :uhoh:. Some well made white light mounts have red laser options too, ;). These handy little gadgets can put a red dot on the criminal(s) as well as a bright light.
In closing, I would carry a weapon light for my duty pistol if I worked in lowlight hours(night) or have a well made whitelight/red dot laser aimer combo for my home protection weapon. The advantages in protecting yourself or your family members/fellow LEOs or security officers make them worth it.

Rusty S ;)

M2 Carbine
February 5, 2008, 12:41 PM
I do a good bit of low light and dark shooting, usually several evenings a week (home range).

Do to actually shooting and practicing with the different night shooting aids I've found what works best (for me).

IMO, the all around best low light/darkness system is a gun mounted laser/light.
Yes your gun is pointed at what the light is pointed at, but if you think about, most of the time your gun is pointed at something you don't want to shoot. How often do you accidentally pull the trigger and shoot the TV or someone outside or in the next house? Your finger shouldn't even be on the trigger, right?
Yes, I go by the idea that if you can't control when to and when not to shoot, you have a bigger problem than what light to choose.
And it's not even necessary to point the gun directly at the dark silhouette that may just be your drunken brother-in-law. My Streamlight TLR-2 laser/light is probably typical and this light, out from the center beam, illuminates a whole average size room, not just where the gun is pointing.

Some of the advantages of the laser/light is you have a free hand.
At the instant you light up the BG you are sighted in and ready to fire. The laser dot showing you exactly where the bullet will strike.
The gun mounted light is very fast to use and accurate.
When you pick up the gun you are also picking up the light and sighting system at the same time.

I've also found that I am WAY faster and far more accurate with the laser/light or laser than I am with a hand held light and night sights but my old eyes have something to do with that.:)

I'm also a big fan of (good) lasers, like Crimson Trace, but that's another subject.

CountGlockula
February 5, 2008, 01:41 PM
This is where low light self defense training should be a mandatory requirement.

I'd suggest to see if your department offers such a course or you can take one off duty.

And since your concern is:

I am opposed. It used to be a simple rule: You never point your gun at something you are not willing to destroy, and everytime you light up ANYTHING with your weapon-mounted light (be it a burglar, sofa, or a child who comes around a blind corner) you are pointing the muzzle at it.

Taking a low light handgun self defense course that specializes in weapon lights will be your best option.

Lastly, I just want to thank you for your services.

USMCDK
February 6, 2008, 05:18 PM
he got the studies, and help prove that when used properly weapon mounted lights are a great tool.

And this is what it all boils down to.

bluestarlizzard
February 6, 2008, 05:28 PM
personally, i'm not a big fan of ANY gadget on a firearm. my dad does want to mount a light to a couple of the pistols, and, considering he has trouble with his nightvision, i don't mind. i think the option of having a light that CAN be mounted in a pinch is a good comprimise to having one permanatly mounted.
however in terms of a police officer, i presume, that ya'll use flashlights all the time, were as the sidearm gets used much more sparsly. so your going to have to carry a flashligh on the belt anyway. i think adding another light to the sidearm itself would be MORE to carry, not less.
and always remeber KISS. if it can go wrong it probably will go wrong, and depending on batteries is one that will ALWAYS go wrong!

mpmarty
February 6, 2008, 07:03 PM
It all seems to depend on the situation. I have an XD45 service model with a TLR1 90lumen light attached. This combo stays in my bedside table drawer and never leaves except to clean and practice with. The light is adjustable and I have regulated it to a very small spot of very high intensity retina frying light that coincides exactly with the point of impact at fifteen feet with my barnes solid copper 185gr flying ashtrays. I can hold the pistol out to my extreme right and bend my wrist to point it forward and use the light to blind an adversary but at the expense of my own night vision. I can chose not to use it and rely on the tritium sights and my night vision to identify the subject. I live with my wife and have no other people of the two legged variety on the property. We sleep together so when awakened by a growl from the dog or a creaking floorboard, I know instantly if my wife is in bed or not. If she is, whatever or whoever is making the noise is an intruder, as my dog doesn't cause floor boards to squeak and he stays on the floor beside my bed anyway. When I come up under those circumstances, the TLR1 would probably be handy about five percent of the time and I'm not even sure about that. The rest of the time, as an example, if my remote shop alarm goes off (it buzzes in our bedroom receiver) I have to go down the mountain about a quarter of a mile to my shop which is 100ft by 24ft with a concrete floor metal roof and no windows. In that instance I go in and throw/roll a six cell kel lite (precursor to the mag lite) down on the floor so it rolls around and illuminates the whole shop while I sweep with one of my 1911s this happened about a year ago and I caught a thief from down the road a ways and as he was unarmed I called the sheriff and made him lay on the concrete floor for an hour until the deputy came to take him away. I'd had my dogs watch him up close and personal and when he was helped up by the deputy the floor was wet. Imagine that!!:evil:

USMCDK
February 6, 2008, 07:14 PM
I'd had my dogs watch him up close and personal and when he was helped up by the deputy the floor was wet. Imagine that!!

:lol: NOW THAT'S funny!!! I would probably piss myself too with two dogs and a load gun (assumably) pointed at me and a guy screaming "get on the ground" thinking the whole time, "This guy's going to blow my nugget off and if he don't this dog's going to rip off me leg and have it as his new chew toy!

RNB65
February 6, 2008, 07:15 PM
No.
.

USMCDK
February 7, 2008, 09:48 PM
straight out like that

NO...

LoL I just find it funny

steelyblue
February 7, 2008, 10:35 PM
For HD, I have small lights on throughout the house along with an alarm. Eyes are adjusted to low light when you wake up already and for aiming purposes there are nightsights. Also, I prefer the look of a 1911 w/out a rail or a light for that matter.

sinistr
February 7, 2008, 11:57 PM
i find the insight m6 on my firearms an invaluable tool for reasons that have already been stated.get a ten dollar training gun with a rail and attach a borrowed light on it. have a friend hide while you search for him,then trade places,try it with constant light then flicking it.you can see in places without exposing yourself(like closets)because of the shadow cast.

PennsyPlinker
February 8, 2008, 11:10 AM
I used to be in the light off the gun crowd. A few weeks ago the alarm in my shop went of at about 2:00 AM. The shop is a separate building about 100' from the house.

Up I went, gun in one hand, light in the other. Now I had to get the shop unlocked, open the door, shut off the alarm, all while looking about for bad guys. There was a lot of shuffling stuff around, trying not to tangle up the hand with the gun in it, and a lot of time wasted.

Now I have a Streamlight on the end of my gun, which compliments the Crimson Trace nicely. I agree with the other posters who have written that the light/gun does not need to be pointed directly at whatever I am looking at, and besides that, my finger is never on the trigger until I am ready to shoot.

As far as those who say that the light highlights me and makes me an easier target, I am already out in the open to some degree just by virtue of moving about. So unless I am going to cringe behind the couch and hope the bad guys go away without hurting me, I am going to be taking some sort of risk. At least this way I can see what I am looking at, and I have a free hand for whatever I might need it for.

bigmike45
February 8, 2008, 04:04 PM
I personally like the idea of having the ability to illuminate the threat to verify it is in fact a threat. If I did that while holding the flashlight in the other hand, I could not dial 911. I like having the free hand to do things other than holding the flashlight.

Here's mine:
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f43/mike_seale/XD45wLIGHT2.jpg

jlbraun
February 8, 2008, 04:07 PM
OK, get a flashlight in one hand, gun in the other. Do the Modified Weaver or FBI technique. Great.

Now, try and open a door.

Light on gun = good idea.

Brandon
February 8, 2008, 06:58 PM
As has been mentioned...

I found out the hard way that it is really hard to hold the gun, light and phone all at the same time.

I have a mounted light now.

Zach S
February 8, 2008, 10:20 PM
I have one on my G19. Pretty much my beater/truck gun. Since some of the posters are using rule 2 for a reason not have a weaponlight, I'll use rule 4 as a reason to have one.

Kind of Blued
February 9, 2008, 03:30 AM
I see some advantage in having both. Use a handheld light to identify your surroundings and the threat posed by anything you come across. If you discover a threat, someone who needs to be cuffed for example, drop the weak hand light, now using the weapon mounted light, and your left hand is now free.

Detachment Charlie
February 10, 2008, 04:53 PM
I don't mean to straddle the fence, but I'm a little bit country & a little bit rock & roll...but I'm completely Old School, too.
I use both.
The handheld light is held high and away from my body, see real old school. But, there are doors to open, locks to deal with and other things that require the handheld be tucked in a pocket and, if needed the gun-mounted light is used. I would prefer to use the gun-mounted light to illuminate, blind & ID.

USMCDK
February 11, 2008, 01:31 AM
Since some of the posters are using rule 2 for a reason not have a weaponlight, I'll use rule 4 as a reason to have one.


I dislike being "DUH!!" but can someone tell me what the rules are and how many. I didn't get this and I really feel stupid now. Please help and explain.

loop
February 11, 2008, 08:16 AM
Big no to weapon mounted lights. They take away all your versatility. Provide a target and leave your sights in the dark...

Proper police technique for holding a flashlight should be to hold it in the off-hand out away from the body. That way is someone shoots at the light the worst they can do is injure your non-shooting hand. If the light is mounted on the weapon it is either a head shot or an upper body shot.

Surprised it has not been mentioned (or I missed it) but the Harries Technique provides stability for the firearm and also illuminates your sights. You can go from holding the flashlight two feet to your left to Harries faster than you can draw your weapon. I'd link to some Harries Technique sights, but a google search will give you about a 1,000. SureFire's is excellent.

As for carrying more stuff on your belt, you can't work with just a weapon-mounted light. Unless you want to approach a soccer mom with gun drawn for an illegal lane change. A SureFire on the belt is nothing.

Further, a weapon-mounted light is just one more thing to go wrong. And things that can go wrong do so at the worst possible moment.

And, if you can't cuff, use your cell phone or radio in the dark, you need more training and practice.

Zach S
February 11, 2008, 08:48 AM
I dislike being "DUH!!" but can someone tell me what the rules are and how many. I didn't get this and I really feel stupid now. Please help and explain.
Col Cooper's four rules. You'll see a lot of folks here refer to them.

http://thehighroad.org/library/safetyrules.html

crazed_ss
February 11, 2008, 08:58 AM
I put a TLR-1 on my HD gun because I cant see in the dark.

My buddy is a San Diego Sherriff Deputy and they issue a Glock 23 and TLR-1 for the rank and file officers. They dont use the Glock w/ light as a general purpose flashlight.. they have a flashlight for that.

KenW.
February 11, 2008, 04:29 PM
This is a good training aid / video.

http://bluetube.policeone.com/Clip.aspx?key=001BCA40F5150161

Ala Dan
February 11, 2008, 05:22 PM
I have a Streamlight TLR-1 on my .45 ACP Springfield Armory full size XD, as]
its only used for home defense. In 20 years of service as a LEO, I never had
a need for a light mounted on a weapon. Theory is, it gives the perp a fix on
your location~! :uhoh: :( ;)

Bones11b
February 11, 2008, 07:29 PM
I don't like weapon mounted lights or lasers. I always trained to use one hand for weapon and one for light. I am also not a huge fan of Glocks. That being said my SHTF gun is a G35 with a light mounted. Reason being is if the SHTF I know the Glock enough to load unload and fire it in complete darkness. Also training for urban combat only goes so far when you don't have a team helping you kick in doors and such. Therefore in all likelyhood if I had to run around (or God forbid out) of my house in my boxer shorts in complete darkness I trust the G35 with light mounted to be effective and simple to use. I also live only with my wife and dog so sweeping my house with my muzzle while my better half stays in the bedroom is not an issue. Different strokes are not just for different folks, but also different situations.

wadeXD-40
February 11, 2008, 08:30 PM
In a combat skills course i went through for the navy seabees we had to shoot at night with our surefire light in one hand and still shoot with two hands on the gun. one of the black water instructers had a special grip on his . i wouldnt put a light on my handgun. what if you need a light and not a gun at the time

easyg
February 11, 2008, 08:51 PM
I vote "NO" to lights on guns.

It's a real bad idea:
Some day, some where, you will eventually point your weapon at an innocent while "spot lighting" them....always a bad practice.
And you will give away your own position to potential bad guys as well.

PennsyPlinker
February 11, 2008, 09:00 PM
I've already replied in this thread that I LIKE my gun mounted light. I like having one hand free. I see lots of people writing in to say no, no, no, never a light on the gun, for all sorts of reasons. Does it occur to any of you that these lights come off the gun fast and easy for hand held use if the situation warrants it? So no, we do not have to go around pointing guns at things we don't want to shoot - unless we want to of course! :evil: On the other hand, unless I bring my roll of tape with me, a regular hand held light is NOT going to be strapped onto my gun any way at all.

And you will give away your own position to potential bad guys as well.

And a hand held light won't? Keep in mind, if there are bad guys obviously around, or you are afrtaid of giving yourself away, any light that is hand held, on the gun, strapped to your noggin, is going to give you away to a certain extent. Just because you have the light doesn't mean you need to use it!

PPGMD
February 11, 2008, 09:01 PM
what if you need a light and not a gun at the time

That's why you shouldn't just have one light.

Anyways try doing a low light course and give it a try. There is a very good chance that you will become a convert to weapon mounted lights, in particular on long guns.

Anyways there are those worried about rule two violations, guess what until you illuminate the target they are a threat. That's why you see police point their pistols at people until they are sure that they aren't a threat.

What happens when you light up the target and they turn out to be a threat and start firing? Do you want to be in a gun fight with only one hand on the gun?

Sapper771
February 12, 2008, 12:49 AM
I carry a weapon light on my duty belt. I usually only put it on my glock when I am making entry into a building at night, but i only use it when i absolutely have to. My idea on it is that if someone is trying to hurt/kill you, they are going to be able to locate your position from your light, and from there, if they are armed, they can assume that you are behind your light.

R&J
February 12, 2008, 01:12 AM
Particularly on a bedside gun! :uhoh:

A SureFire X200B or X300 will flash-light an entire room if you skip the beam off of the ceiling. ID your intruder then--and by that I mean, if it ain't the wife or the dog, it don't belong there! :mad:

Your free hand can be dialing 911 or opening a door... :scrutiny:

I'm also a big fan of night sights and laser designators. All these things have a use and a place on a weapons platform. But do some practice or better yet, get training! ;)

--Ray

USMCDK
February 12, 2008, 01:31 AM
All good points... Positions, rule 2, versatility. The thing is it boils down to comfortability and know how. If you aren't comfortable with it or not trained with it, then don't by all means I would not want you to do something that would potentially get youru loved ones or innocence harmed/killed. as for the rest of us, we do it cause we either know how are trained how or are just plain comfortable with it and or are confident in our ability, not saying the others aren't, but we are just the same.

BTW as for the rules thing, I figured it was the 4 safety rules of a firearm, but wanted to be sure that it wasn't just some forum lingo. Thank you Zach

I didn't get trainning from a professional, but I have practiced plenty and still do creating my own comfortable methods on how to go about using my M2 UTL tac-lite. I hope that at least those of you that have a light mount practice if not get the proper training.

easyg
February 12, 2008, 11:24 AM
Another thing to consider....
How will the light on your pistol look in a court of law?

"So you have a light on your pistol....and you shined this light in the face of my client....he couldn't see at this point....he was in fact blind at this time! And then you shot him! YOU SHOT A BLIND MAN!!!"

PennsyPlinker
February 12, 2008, 11:40 AM
^^^^^^^

I really really hope this was written tongue in cheek, and not as a serious comment. If this is serious, I am depressed yet again by the convoluted thought processes of some people here on this board. This rates right up there with the person who told me - in all seriousness - that if I "escalated the situation by drawing my gun to stop a threat, why then he could legally pull his gun and shoot me!" :banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:

Deanimator
February 12, 2008, 11:56 AM
1. You should NEVER point a firearm at anything or anyone you don't want to shoot. A cop recently shot somebody when he reached for his taser and came up with his service pistol by mistake. Assuming he wasn't lying, how much EASIER would it be to intentionally point a firearm at somebody and fire a round instead of turning on the light?

2. Tracers work both ways. So do flashlights. In a gunfight, giving my opponent a distinct aiming point is near the bottom of my priorities.

easyg
February 12, 2008, 12:07 PM
I really really hope this was written tongue in cheek, and not as a serious comment. If this is serious, I am depressed yet again....
Dude, don't get an ulcer....this is just an internet forum.


But I was serious.

Coronach
February 12, 2008, 12:10 PM
I am opposed. It used to be a simple rule: You never point your gun at something you are not willing to destroy, and everytime you light up ANYTHING with your weapon-mounted light (be it a burglar, sofa, or a child who comes around a blind corner) you are pointing the muzzle at it.If you're doing a proper building search, you'll be pointing your muzzle in the general direction of it anyway, at least for long enough to ID it, and at least at low-ready. The only difference is that you're juggling a gun in one hand and a light in the other. This is the Third Eye principle in action- your gun goes where you look on an active felony search. Now, muzzle-sweeping a target is not required...these things are not like spotlights sweeping the night sky. If you go to low-ready facing a doorway, you can illuminate the portal well enough to ID what comes through it without muzzle-sweeping it.Those in favor of the lights routinely say "If you don't want to shoot, just don't pull the trigger".If you're talking active search for a felon, this is correct. If you're talking about anything else, you should not be using your mounted light for illumination. period.Our #2 guy in my agency doesn't want "loaded flashlights" being pointed around, and I'm with him. In 15 years of this work I haven't found a need for one. We were all taught to use a light in the support hand.That will certainly work, but as I pointed out there is no safety gain if you're using the mounted light correctly, and your shooting ability is reduced by having the hold both the gun and the light. Don't try to tell me you can shoot just as well holding both, you can't. No one can. It's why we hold the gun with two hands in daylight.As for carrying two seperate lights, we cops already complain about the amount of things we have hanging off our belts.Same number of things hanging off of the belt in the weaponlight scenario. One of them just weighs an oz or so more. The weaponlight is NOT, nor has it ever been intended to be, a replacement for the flashlight.What do people here think?I think people who object to the weaponlight have not been trained to use them correctly or had any practical experience with them. The main problem is that, like any tool, it magnifies stupidity. Can you end up with officers using it as a loaded flashlight? Yep. The only solution is to train them properly and discipline them if they refuse to be taught, because that is inappropriate.

Mike

Coronach
February 12, 2008, 12:23 PM
AAAAAAND (edit button is still out of service), the weapon lights have a very ergonomically located on off switch OUTSIDE of the trigger guard. There is no need to have the light on all of the time, broadcasting your position, and any manipulations of the on off switch have to be conducted with your finger off of the trigger.

Mike

PPGMD
February 12, 2008, 12:33 PM
2. Tracers work both ways. So do flashlights. In a gunfight, giving my opponent a distinct aiming point is near the bottom of my priorities.

Ah yes the infamous "It will give away my position argument." Very rarely is it dark enough that neither person will see the other. Instead both people see outlines, the differences is that the bad gun knows that you are an enemy, and is willing to shoot if you get close enough, while you have no idea who is there until you light them up.

Also have you ever tried to deliver aimed fire at a 100+ lumen light source? At best you are point shooting while the light is on, and now the enemies eyes have contracted and in the center of his vision he has a blind spot.

The key to using white light in tactical situations is first only to use it indoors (outdoors is NVD because of the distances involved and the fact that you are distinctly giving away your positions), next is the illuminate the target, shoot, turn the light off (if it doesn't have a momentary switch), move, repeat until the threat is stopped.

PennsyPlinker
February 12, 2008, 01:04 PM
Dude, don't get an ulcer....this is just an internet forum.

But I was serious.

No worries, uhhh, dude, I don't get ulcers. I do get headaches when I see this kind of reasoning and think about the education, upbringing, and life experience that must have contributed to it.

I might as well worry about being sued for the dangerous radiation coming out of the end of my laser sight, not to mention LEAD POISONING if I actually shoot someone. :neener:

easyg
February 12, 2008, 01:57 PM
I do get headaches when I see this kind of reasoning and think about the education, upbringing, and life experience that must have contributed to it.
Careful there buddy....personal attacks are not condoned on this here forum.

Besides, the same can be said in reverse....

Many would question the "education, upbringing, and life experience" of someone who doesn't consider how things might look in a court of law should they be required to justify a shooting.

PennsyPlinker
February 12, 2008, 02:28 PM
Okay easyg, let's look at what you just wrote. I am not sure how you arrive at your conclusion regarding my wondering "out loud" about how you process your thought. All those things I mention actually have a lot to do with how people process information and arrive at their worldview.

But first you accuse me of a personal attack.

Then you warn me that this is not acceptable behavior.

Then you "turn the tables" on me and do the very thing you just complained about! :scrutiny:

So which is it? Is it really a personal attack? I don't think so, and I don't think you really think so either, unless you also think that it is okay for you to respond to a perceived personal attack by doing the very same thing. Even though it is against the rules. For me, anyway. Not you. See what I mean about your convoluted reasoning? ;)

But let's get back to the original topic. Do you think that a light on the gun is any better or worse than a handheld light for the eyes of the bad guy in my house or yours? Do you really think it is going to make a difference to a judge, jury or prosecutor if you were holding the light in your hand instead of on the gun? Maybe you think it would be better to shoot someone in the dark, so he wouldn't be blinded right before the bullets tear through his flesh? Is that it? Do you think that shining the light in the eyes of an intruder does not give him a sporting chance and is unfair somehow?

Please, I am interested to hear your reasoning on how you consider that this whole thing might play out? Me? If someone is in my house without my permission at night (we'll assume at night, since we are talking about lights), I am going to do my very best to stack the deck in my favor so he gets shot and not me. What do you think about that easyg?

If you are really as concerned as you say about being held accountable for shining a light in the BG's eyes right before you shoot him for being in your house at night, perhaps you would be better off putting 911 into your speed dial and waiting for the cops to come and help you. You wouldn't want to be convicted of taking advantage of some poor soul whose only real fault was poor upbringing.

easyg
February 12, 2008, 02:44 PM
So which is it? Is it really a personal attack?...
We both already know the answer to this question, but I'm not the sort to go and run tattle-tale to the mods for one off remark.
It was just friendly advice to be careful how your remarks might be taken.
Without facial expressions and voice tones, internet communications can be easily misunderstood.

But let's get back to the original topic. Do you think that a light on the gun is any better or worse than a handheld light for the eyes of the bad guy in my house or yours?
Maybe you live in a really huge house that's dark as a coalmine, but my house is plenty lit even at night.
So for myself, I don't need any handheld or pistol mounted light inside my home, even at night.
And it's just me and wife (no kids), so I don't have any "friendlies" wondering around my house at night.

Do you really think it is going to make a difference to a judge, jury or prosecutor if you were holding the light in your hand instead of on the gun?
I think that it very well could....I'm willing to bet that lesser factors have swayed juries and judges in the past.
After all, consider the "assault weapon ban"....it outlawed weapons purely based upon the appearance of the weapon.
And that piece of legislation was written by LAWYERS.

R&J
February 12, 2008, 07:56 PM
It's a felony to point a loaded weapon at anybody.

So, when an intruder breaks into your home, you commit a felony by pointing a loaded gun at him. And don't even think about pursuing the perp out of your house!

Wisconsin is not a stand your ground state, like Florida is. Here, we worry about the perp, and the quality of his childhood, and the breaks he never had... It's no wonder he broke into your home! :scrutiny:

A couple years back, an elderly lady held an intruder at gun point, as she dialed 911. She was babysitting for four sleeping children at the time. The spin on the news was that she had committed a felony by pointing a loaded weapon at that (generically described) man! Police considered charges... Her gun was confiscated... The segment closed with footage of a bunch of grannies practicing Tae Kwon Do with a bunch of kiddies, at a mall academy, stating that alternatives to firearms are available to everybody! :rolleyes:

In my mind, she deserved a medal! :fire: And give her freaking gun back! :cuss:

I'd like to see a Stand Your Ground or Castle Doctrine adopted by every state. That would cut through 99% of this bottom feeding lawyer crap! ;)

--Ray

USMCDK
February 13, 2008, 07:35 PM
A couple years back, an elderly lady held an intruder at gun point, as she dialed 911. She was babysitting for four sleeping children at the time. The spin on the news was that she had committed a felony by pointing a loaded weapon at that (generically described) man! Police considered charges... Her gun was confiscated... The segment closed with footage of a bunch of grannies practicing Tae Kwon Do with a bunch of kiddies, at a mall academy, stating that alternatives to firearms are available to everybody!

That :cuss: just make me want to :barf: damn too late already did.

How ever I can see it from the perspective of others. There are lawyers and prosecutors out there that will do just that in a court of law, even in florida. I live in NH and we have the Castle law and still we can be convicted for even saving the lives of our loved ones and property. I am still all for my mounted light and if it comes down to the courts I will just have my LAWYERS, Military and one civilian, do all the talking for me. Don't get me wrong though, court is one of the toughest obsticles that anyone could go through.

Needless to say I am all for gun mounted lights. Like I said before and am now saying again.

I practiced/practice with my mounted like and I am comfortable with it. Others can seek out the "PROPER" training on using one as well. It all boils down to comfortability.

BTW there shouldn't be a perp when you are done as the two sayings go

"One shot One KILL!":eek::what::D

and

"A dead man tells no lies!":evil:

USMCDK
May 1, 2008, 10:17 PM
I think this is a subject that is subjective in nature. I still say yes to light mounts

socaldan
May 2, 2008, 02:34 AM
Its the middle of the nite...your'e awakened by a loud noise...you grab the blaster in one hand and the maglite in the other and start a room to room clear...now...you come up to a door thats not "usualy" closed but it is now...HOW do yoy safely open it...what do YOU do?
I always have one hand free!
YES TO MOUNTED LIGHTS !!!!

R&J
May 2, 2008, 02:39 AM
Weapon lights and laser designators, properly used, are proven concepts, and an asset to any weapon platform.

Stick with what you know, or roll with the times.

--Ray

jatkbay
May 2, 2008, 03:08 AM
My opinion is that it depends on the situation: I do have a surefire on my .45 but I would not use it until I absolutely need it. I prefer to go with my handheld surefire approx 1 ft to my right of the gun thus making me not a target. If the perpetrator shoots at the light I have little to worry about but maybe a finger or to which can be put back on. Once I see muzzle flash though I can either fire the light to stun the perp which hopefully the first freehand light did or take him out but either way it is nice to have a gunlight.

Think about the zodiac killer in I think it was San Fran, Cali. He used to use a mag light taped to the bottom of his revolver, the main focus of his light was the center of impact. Not to point out the obvious but if it works for someone like him it should work for those of us that wish to keep the peace. Semper Fi.

Dksimon
May 2, 2008, 03:38 AM
I vote yes.

All the weapon mounted lights that I have ever dealt wth have been fairly easy to remove/attach. If you feel the need to have a light in one hand then take the light off and when you come to a situation where you need a free hand stick the light back on.

Maybe I am missing something but I think that is a viable option.

Any bedside gun of mine will have a mounted light.

SD was the second state to adopt the castle doctrine so I dont need to worry about the felony pointing a loaded weapon at them.

slik_rik30
May 2, 2008, 01:08 PM
I vote yes. I have a TLR-1 on my 229.

Yes I could be sued, no I won't point it at my kids, and yes I give away my "position" in my 1300sf home.

And don't forget tacti-cool.

fins831
June 4, 2008, 10:01 PM
would you consider using a mounted light over night sights, or both, or just night sights.

Its just many people talk about home defense and low to 0 visibility scenarios, and that night sights are bright enough to give away a position but some say they don't. Others discuss how a mounted light is more obvious but mounted Lights can hinder the sight of the perp when pointed at eyes.

However, I also hear negative things about night sights, claiming that they are no help in dark situations since you can't see what you are shooting and you shouldn't shoot what your can't see, and in a short range home defense scenarios or drills, people claim using sights can delay the time needed to shoot, and point and shoot is better if you are familiar with the weapon.

so, question becomes, mounted lights vs. night sights...or both?

slik_rik30
June 5, 2008, 01:48 PM
Fins, I have both on the P229, but once you bring on that LED there is no such thing as nite sights for some time. I would guess the same would be true after one muzzle flash. The chance of you finding those little green dots after a fireball went off 3ft from your face are slim to none.

SiG357
June 5, 2008, 02:34 PM
That would be a yes for HD.

I need to ID the target.

If I don't need the light, I just won't turn it on.

http://www.ls1.com/ed/weapons/weapons1.jpg

XDKingslayer
June 5, 2008, 02:42 PM
I think they are great. Especially for HD. I think the time and danger they can save during something as simple as a reload makes them worth it.

I'm pretty sure that trying to reload your pistol with a flashlight in your hand isn't going to be fun in a stressful situation.

KenW.
June 5, 2008, 03:12 PM
The first to night shoots I qualified on were using simple white-dot sights and the weaver method of holding a flashlight. I prefer being able to move the light independant from the weapon; then aagi, I've never had a weapon-light.

I just got an XD45. Those have rails so maybe I'll get a light and try it - Once agency policy allows weapon mounted lights.

PPGMD
June 5, 2008, 04:08 PM
Weapon lights were never meant to replace the flashlight, they are meant to complement it particularly when the fight is on.

As far as agency policy it often takes someone that is willing to stick his neck out and ask why not before a policy is changed.

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