Why Are Knives Always Weapons?


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ArfinGreebly
January 6, 2008, 05:48 AM
I was thinking. Always a bad way to start things off.

Knives.

Weapons.

Really?

I have a lot of knives. No, I'm NOT going to count them. Yes, it's probably more than a hundred. And your point?

I'm not a knife collector. Yes, I have many. No, I didn't set out to have many. I set out to discover what works well for me. Unfortunately, no one of my acquaintance will offer to LEND you a knife for six or eight months while you try it out. To try, you have to buy. Meh.

So I have a bunch.

I had a reasonably specific list of tasks I wanted a knife to perform. I wanted it to cut stuff. I wanted it to be sharp enough for shaving, though I never intended to shave with it, I just wanted to have razor-like capabilities. I wanted it to be durable enough for camp work, like shaving or even chopping kindling, cutting up fruit and veggies, carving meat and -- as needed -- skinning, cutting bread, whittling, cutting cloth without tearing, cutting canvas, cutting heavy cardboard or thin board, cutting rope & wire (or seat belts), digging splinters out of fingers, punching holes in leather/cloth/canvas, drilling holes in wood, hacking off slices of salami, and so on, and so on, up to, and including if needed, amputating my own arm.

Is that so much to ask?

However, you may notice, on reviewing that list, that one task is conspicuously absent. Self defense is missing.

You see, I was researching and shopping for . . . a TOOL, rather than a WEAPON.

Why does this distinction matter?

Well, it didn't, at first. In fact, I didn't give it a lot of thought until recently, when I set out to post a description of an exceptional bargain I found on a folding hunter.

Yes, a "hunting" knife.

While I was posting that report, I noticed a lot of mention of "tactical" knives and "knives as backup" to a gun, and other WEAPONS applications of knives.

Which set me to thinking. I may have mentioned that.

Out of the perhaps hundred knives I have, very few of them would be worth a damn as a weapon. Most of them were crafted to be useful as tools.

I have skinning knives. Well, skinning is a JOB, not a battle.
I have "hunting" knives. You'd be daft to try hunting anything with them.
I have fishing knives that you can't fish with.
I have survival knives that look aggressive, but are designed for surviving through use as a TOOL.
I have small and large knives. I have some rather odd ones as well.
I have a Bowie knife or two. And I have some "combat" knives.


Now, the Bowies and the combat knives (one's actually called a "fighter") could be reasonably used as weapons, but what makes them effective as weapons makes them next to useless for much other work.

Could I prepare a meal with my Ka-Bar or my Camillus or my Spec Plus? Sure. But then I've had lots of practice making tools do things beyond their design criteria. I CAN chop veggies with a bowie knife, but frankly I'd rather not. I can cut up fruit with a machete, but it's messy and somewhat risky. I can open boxes with my Spec Plus Fighter, but why would I WANT to?

I also have some knives that muddy the water somewhat, being right on the edge of usefulness as a weapon, while being almost too big or clumsy to use for normal work.

As I pondered this, I realized that the vast majority of knives, now and historically, are tools and are made with that in mind. They are unique in the tool kingdom, in that they are more broadly useful than just about any other kind of tool.

If you stranded me in some forest or jungle, stripped me of my weapons, but left me a knife, within the hour I'd HAVE a weapon, made using my knife as a tool. I would use the knife to make other tools, weapons, shelter, traps & snares, and use it to prepare food and clothing. Would I ever use the knife, itself, as a weapon? Possibly, but it would be at the ragged edge of desperation.

I considered the constant characterization of knives as "weapons" and found myself laughing aloud. It's ignorant and dishonest and childish. The VAST majority of knives are tools. WAY more than "most" of them were meant -- designed in fact -- for tasks of labor -- jobs -- and for actual work.

Recent fads have led to making knives more "weapony" and "tactical" and you can find knives with 2-inch blades that look like they were designed for mayhem.

Uh, right.

My conclusion from all this random thinking, is that knives are properly characterized as tools. Sure, there are fighting knives. But that's not MOST knives.

My favorite characterization is of the hunting knife. Well, obviously, if you're going to HUNT with a knife, that pretty much defines it as a weapon, right? Seriously. Go hunting. Take the meanest hunting knife you have or can get. When you bag your deer or your coyote or your rabbit, let me know how you deployed the knife to make that kill. (Inevitably, someone will raise the business of hunting wild boar with dogs and knives, and I know that there are people who never use a knife for anything else but that, so you always see them with a ten-inch blade at their side, but I daresay that particular application is way down in single digits.)

I'm nearly sixty. I've never once in my entire life killed any form of animal life with a knife. An axe, yes, but not a knife. I've cleaned fish with a knife, trimmed, cut, and boned meat with a knife, and put some cool holes in myself with knives, but never killed anything with one. Never tried. Never needed to: I always had a better tool for that.

So, for those of you who care, may I recommend that you promote the proper characterization of knives.

Sure, some are made to be weapons. If all of yours are made for that purpose, then good on yer. Most of you, I suspect, are like me, in that the only thing ever slain by your knife is a lump of cheese.

I'm done thinking for now.

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RLsnow
January 6, 2008, 06:32 AM
true :) if i were to try and say stab something with any of my (only two) knifes i might find myself short of a few fingers.

though i wont deny that i like the idea of a fighting knife ;) but a number of things would have to happen before i pick up a knife to fight with.

Stainz
January 6, 2008, 08:26 AM
I, too, will hit sixty this year - mid summer. I have cleaned fish with a knife - that's about the worst thing I have done with a knife to something else living. When I fished, I cut up an odd snake and eel or two, as well. I do have a couple of new KaBars - they were 'on sale' - and an example of a custom knife maker's 'fixed blade fighters' - again, that 'on sale' deal... I'm a sucker for such.

I will admit to having a myriad of hunting type knives, too - and even some great 'survivalist' examples. I hate serrated knives - figuring that if I wrecked my Jeep to the point I couldn't extricate myself from my seatbelt normally, I was going to need a rescuer for my injuries anyway - and just hope he has one!

I do carry decent folders - sometimes a small fixed blade - never know when that next knife will arrive and you have to open it - or those Christmas bills, or take a tag off new britches. The comfort of having my brand new Buck #419 folding Kalinga Pro in my pocket came to fruition this Christmas at a party the evening it arrived. The sliced baked ham was surrounded with fat - barf! I threw out my paper plate with the trimmed fat on it - yea K-P - while everyone else tossed the ham - or ate the fat. Of course, the remarks were predictable - but I love ham, hate fat. My knives are tools.

I carry protection most of the time... in the form of either an Airweight S&W .38 or .44 Special. You bet they have been comforting to carry at times. Neither is much of a legal tool... and were they all I had in my pocket at that party, I'd of had to eat that fat! YMMV.

Stainz

Old Fuff
January 6, 2008, 10:24 AM
On this issue I'd side with you 100% of the way, and while we're on the subject I'll take a swipe at school Zero Tolerance polcies that fail to recognize that pocket knives are indeed tools, and useful ones.

What makes a knife, or firearm, or a lot of other things a weapon is the user's intent, not what the object is. Those that carry or otherwise use knives as tools far and away outnumber those that have them for weapons, and they ever further outnumber those who carry them with illegal intentions. It would be nice to see some balance here.

sniper5
January 6, 2008, 11:13 AM
100% with you. A knife is a tool that can be used as a weapon. As can a screwdriver, hammer, shovel, breaker bar, etc.

If I recall, things like locking blades were originally safety features to prevent the knife folding up on your fingers. And many knives are intentionally designed to make poor weapons to prevent injury to the user (my diving knife and kayak PFD knife with the stab resistant points to prevent injury when I'm upside down in a washing machine trying to cut line comes to mind).

MikeJackmin
January 6, 2008, 11:37 AM
I generally agree with what you've said here. On a related note, I'll add that the vast majority of my guns are not weapons either - most are never carried for defensive purposes, or even kept ready for quick use. They are either toys, or historical curiosities, or tools for the hobby of target shooting.

hopkin
January 6, 2008, 01:30 PM
I thought weapons were the forum topic? I've read quite a few threads where people start talking about other uses and eventually someone suggests going to a more general knife forum, usually knifeforums or britishblades.

CrawdaddyJim
January 6, 2008, 01:33 PM
I think the definition of Weapon is anything that is used to attack or defend oneself.

A knife is a form of tool and just like all tools can be used as a weapon.

JohnMcD348
January 6, 2008, 03:12 PM
Unfortunately, the general mindset of the general public is that ANY knife is a weapon. I always carry a folder in my pocket and/or my Swiss Champ on my belt. I don't know how many times I get a look of horror on the faces of people in public when I take my SAK out of it's holder to use the scissors on it to cut my sons straw down in a resturaunt. It used to annoy me, now, it just makes me sad. I actually heard a woman say out loud once at a McDonalds(He's got a Knife!!!!). I looked over at her puzzled and annoyed and simply said, Yes, it is. And, proceeded to cut the straw for my 3 year olds drink so he could use it more functionally.
I learned at an early age that a knife was a tool, not a weapon. I grew up around old men who set out in the front yard daily and whittled wood blocks into fine pieces of art. I got my first knife(an Uncle Henry 3blade folder) for my 7th birthday and have carried it or the Old Timer equivalent every day since except for rare occasion. I've peeled many an orange(I live in Central Florida), grapefruit, and skinned many a fish on the bank with those knives and when my son is a little bit older, he'll learn the same as I did. Society be darned..

ArfinGreebly
January 7, 2008, 12:31 AM
Unfortunately, the general mindset of the general public is that ANY knife is a weapon.
Yeah.

Hence the title of the thread.

I thought weapons were the forum topic?
Yup.

And knives certainly CAN be weapons. There have been millions of them made with that in mind.

On the other hand, many millions more have been made expressly to be used in a "tool" capacity.

I was just struck by the cultural "oh, look, a weapon!" mentality when confronted with something so clearly meant to be a common tool.

And we need to address this. I really don't want to wind up with the kind of mandates and prohibitions they now have in the UK.

Now that I think of it, isn't there an organization for knives that's kind of an analog to the NRA?

I'll bet hso knows who I mean.

markk
January 7, 2008, 03:35 AM
Now that I think of it, isn't there an organization for knives that's kind of an analog to the NRA?



http://www.akti.org/
http://www.kniferights.org

hopkin
January 7, 2008, 02:03 PM
Forgive me if I'm being slow on the uptake here...

Is the problem this forum or the wider world? I don't see a problem with this specific forum being limited, especially as the regulars seem to constantly challenge people who have foolish opinions about knives. People are going to ask about knives as weaponry and it's better they get good information here than rely on the paramilitary fanboys. Perhaps another forum for edged tools would be useful, though?

If it's the wider world that's an issue, I agree. A lot of people assume knives must be used as weapons in the same ways they assume guns whisper into the owners ear to go on a rampage. I get very frustrated with manufacturers that turn every knife into a tacticool assault knife to sell it. Even worse are the people who won't buy a knife unless it's guaranteed to kill bears, perhaps invading communist bears.

hso
January 7, 2008, 02:12 PM
hopkin,

It sort of depends where you are or where the folks carrying on the discussion are.

Around here, eastern Tennessee, you see pocket knives all the time. Any walk though a mall or at a performance and you'll see pocket clips all around. People in this area don't generally view knives as weapons, but go to another state or listen to the national news and the attitudes change to "weapon" instead of "tool".

As to referring others to dedicated knife forums, we recognize that better information may be available from other sites focused on the question.

Limeyfellow
January 8, 2008, 12:30 AM
Unfortunately, the general mindset of the general public is that ANY knife is a weapon.

The Victorian Age really screwed us up like that, with the popular use of flatware with rounded, blunt knives. This took the knife out of common circulation where most people would carry one and things have gone down hill eversince as knives fell into a weapons category, when they are one of the most useful tools invented.

DWARREN123
January 8, 2008, 01:32 AM
I have one weapon, it's between my ears and back of my eyes, everything else is a tool.

The Tourist
January 8, 2008, 02:34 AM
I believe the problem is that we let "tactical" guys set the tone.

The most probable time you will next see a knife fight is during a retrospective production of "The Westside Story."

And contrary to all of the ballyhoo tied to edged implements, the most useful chore for any and all knives is in food production.

The next time a chairborne ranger shows you a blackened 10 dollar knife, show him a picture of a 33-layer gyuto worth several of his month's wages down at the carwash.

The steel of the samurai is with us yet today--in the hands of professional chefs.

Boats
January 8, 2008, 05:07 AM
Most of my knives are tools, but a few are pure bred weaponry.

I have a reproduction Case V-42 stiletto that looks like this pic below:

http://www.usmilitaryknives.com/images/case92_1.jpg

Any way you look at it, that knife is a weapon. Double edged, penetrator point, striking pommel, a double guard, and an indexing spot on the ricasso to remind the wielder to turn the blade flat for insertion into the body lest a vertically oriented blade get hung up in the rib cage.

I also have one of these sticking out from beneath my mattress, a Ka Bar 1271:

https://www.kabar.com/images/1271_large.jpg

I know Ka Bars are called Fighting/Utility knives, but this one is more fighter than utility. A non-slip grip, a double guard, an indexing notch on the spine, a reinforced point, and a sharpenable swedge, tip this one away from the utility side of the equation.

I agree in the main, most knives are tools first and improvised weapons as a last resort, but just like some horses and dogs, a certain subset were bred for combat and any other use was a secondary concern.

Whether a knife is a weapon is about the user's intent mostly. However, some knives scream out their intent through inherent features of their design.

And actually it was in Renaissance Era France where rounded off street (eateries and inns) and table (nobility dining) knives were decreed throughout the realm by Louis XIV in 1669. He had them all ground to be rounded off. It was among the many bad and despotically inspired ideas that France has exported over the centuries.

TimboKhan
January 8, 2008, 05:24 AM
I guess it boils down to perceptions more than anything. The average Case knife is pretty obviously a tool, but to a school principal, they are a weapon. The average Fairbairn dagger is pretty obviously a weapon, but to a soldier, they are just another tool.

Of course, in either case, they can be whatever. A sharp Case knife will stab (or slice a throat) just as well as a Kabar, and a Fairbairn will open an MRE package just as well as a Case.

Semantically, I view all knives as tools, because essentially thats really all they are. Even "dedicated" combat knives can be used to cut meat, open boxes, play mumbelty peg (although I don't advise it), skin a deer, whittle or any other of a thousand uses. Perhaps other designs will do so more efficiently or more comfortably, but thats not really the point. The design may dictate a particular use, but the basic concept of a sharp edge is too brilliant to be confined to a single purpose.

Nematocyst
January 8, 2008, 05:44 AM
<subscribed>

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=68836&d=1197277519

Nematocyst
January 8, 2008, 06:29 AM
I was thinking. Always a bad way to start things off.Arf,

We know that's
the way humans
start things.

Such as it is.

I've only had time to scan this thread so far.
(Work is keeping me on the edge.)

But I've scanned enough by now to hypothesize that
this thread is probably going to skirt the edges,
reside on a cutting-edge,
cut cheese, salami,
brush, wood, fruit
and veges...

... while
staying
sharp ...

JShirley
January 8, 2008, 09:10 PM
I have several knives that are large enough that I am confident I can repel or kill anything in the lower 48- except grizzly, moose, or elk- with them.

Since I have knocked a good size deer off its feet with the butt of a weapon when I was younger and much weaker, I am entirely certain that 20 lbs of muscle and many years of experience later, I can use any of several kukuris I own to stop anything I am likely to encounter in Georgia or most of the rest of the U.S.

The problems are portability, legality, and perception. Unless I've been out cutting down brush or chopping wood for fires, I am probably not going to be carrying a blade with 18" OAL or one of my small axes. Even if GA law allowed me to carry a "knife designed for the purpose of offense and defense", carrying a huge honkin' knife is just not as easy as carrying a moderately sized revolver or automatic. Should I use a knife to protect myself, especially one of my huge camping knives, the law officers I encounter will probably have some prejudice against me that would not be present had I used a firearm.

I have used a knife to finish a downed deer (again, many years ago), and I can say death was instantaneous. I now know just where to shoot for an instant kill. ;)

Anyway, anything can be used defensively. Knives small enough to be readily carried on our persons do not have the length to make them optimal for defense, with the possible exception of an unexpected grabbing/choking attack. It's sad that society tends to view knives as weapons, but that's the reality: learn how to effectively use expedient weapons, such as rolled-up newspapers and small flashlights. And carry a firearm, where legal.

John

Don Gwinn
January 11, 2008, 12:17 AM
Some of my knives aren't weapons.

Some of them are, because it's against the law for me to carry the sort of weapon you (Arfin) probably carry every day. That's just the way the breaks went.
(Yes, I know, I should move. I'll let you all know when it happens. Don't wait up.)

ArfinGreebly
January 11, 2008, 07:47 PM
So, there I wuz, readin' some of the stuff on Ragnar's Forge (http://www.ragweedforge.com/kniv.html), and I stumbled across this little remark, in the section labeled Daggers:
Daggers

Daggers are double edged, symmetrical stabbers. They're weapons. They need to have at least five or six inches of blade to reach vitals. A sharp point and strength are more important than a sharp edge. The elements that make for a good stabber make for a poor utility tool. They're too long to apply leverage and control to the point. The thick, narrow blade results in a blunt bevel at the edge, which cuts poorly. They usually have a double guard, which gets in the way for general use.

The style is very old. I've seen some really lovely daggers worked from Danish flint many thousands of years ago. There are also some very nice bronze daggers. Apparently people have felt the need for personal weapons for a long time.

I don't do much with daggers. As stated, they're mostly weapons. Today, if you need a weapon, you should get a gun.
Which, I think, is pretty succinct.

If I'd read that before my original post, I probably would simply have linked to it.

Nematocyst
January 12, 2008, 06:11 AM
Today, if you need a weapon, you should get a gun.Agreed.

Yet, I keep thinking, back up weapon ...

Although the standard dagger would at no time be very effective against axes, spears, or even maces due to its limited reach, it was an important step towards the development of a more useful close-combat weapon, the sword.Hypothesis: dagger is to revolver what sword is to carbine.

sammoh
January 12, 2008, 06:20 AM
If you need a weapon, you should get a gun... unless you live in one of the few states of the union that doesn't allow CC firearms. Then you carry a knife. Luckily, in WI, its not illegal to carry a knife so long as its not completely concealed. No length or size limit, just that it has to be plainly visible in some form or another.

Sam

Mannix
January 12, 2008, 07:49 AM
What is a tool but an object that allows us primates to do things more efficiently? Whether it's killin' or cuttin' or doin' whatever other task is at hand, it's a tool. Every weapon is a tool, plain and simple.

Six O'clock Tactical
January 12, 2008, 03:57 PM
I carry a Kershaw, but thats because in the SUNY system *(along with most others except utah) firearms are 100% illegal.

Its a 4" utility locking folder, but Ill be damned if I wont turn it on someone should they come at me. Where I go to school, its all about gangs beating up individuals. I dont have a gang... you can do the math.

ArfinGreebly
January 12, 2008, 06:37 PM
While I can empathize, I think there are some caveats you want to consider.

I imagine I don't have to explain the dynamics of a one-to-several confrontation, so I'll skip that.

A four-inch folder may be adequate as a weapon, but remember that, unless you have a well-designed grip and a really good lock, there are potential failures built into using what is designed as a tool for weapons purposes.

Unless you've had some training in the effective use of a (short) knife in hand-to-hand, I'd suggest you seek out training of some kind. At the very least, avail yourself of the Army Field Manual on the subject, as that covers basics like proper grip and stuff.

Knife "fighting" is a really messy thing. In fact, it seems to me that we've had any number of threads on this.

I would refer you to the estimable John Shirley (JShirley) and hso for further information on proper use of a knife in self defense.

Six O'clock Tactical
January 14, 2008, 04:50 PM
The Kershaw Black Horse II...
http://www.knivestown.com/kershaw_knives/kershaw_pocket_knives_100566.asp
The grip is really, really tight. blood, grease, sweat, oil... nothing has been able to get this thing out of my hands. (i havent really bled enough to really test that though.. just cuts and scrapes worth.)
And absolutely, knife fights are some of the worst things in the world. I am a believer in the "biomechanical cutting" method, and will employ that if ever needed. Frankly, i really hope ill never need to.

JShirley
January 14, 2008, 05:36 PM
Honestly, a better choice is almost always to keep attackers outside knife range. One potential tool is to braid a long lanyard out of 550 cord, with a carabiner at one end, and your keys at the other. It looks less like a potential weapon than a chain, while being lighter and stronger. Something like this extends your reach, multiplies your force, and is handy on a day-to-day basis, as well. :)

John

Spiggy
January 14, 2008, 06:04 PM
There's a large mall here where security will bust you for gravity knife or switchblade(no-nos) if your knife can be operated with one hand(spring assisted or hand stud)

I've never seen my knife for anything but a tool; I've cut boxes and rope, picked splinters and cleaned small bits with it... Hell I sometimes use it to cut food and eat with it! :neener: last thing I need is bits of human goo on my knife.

the regular ignorant sheeple sees knives as a "z****_weapon!" but these are the same people that think if we gave everyone in the world a million dollars, it would solve poverty.

Stainz
January 14, 2008, 06:52 PM
If my knives are actually weapons, rather than the tools I think they are, does that make me, every time I accidently cut myself - suicidal??

Again, I CC either a five shot .38 or .44. They are horrid to plink with. I cannot open a bottle of pop with them. I can protect myself, of course, with either one. They are weapons.

Stainz

The Tourist
January 14, 2008, 07:28 PM
Daggers are double edged, symmetrical stabbers. They're weapons.

Au contraire. My wife has a double edged knife from the Western company. She's owned it for more than 20 years.

She goes white water rafting and wilderness camping with teachers and friends from her school. Equipment weight is a premium.

A double edged knife is actually "two knives," and considers the other edge a 'spare.'

To her it's a camp knife, always has been, always will be.

ArfinGreebly
January 14, 2008, 08:12 PM
I own a dagger or two.

I also own a couple of double-edged knives that are NOT daggers.

His description is correct: a dagger is a stabbing instrument.

I have a "pig sticker" type knife that's "two knives" -- one fine-edge, one coarse-edge. It has a modest point, and is not a dagger.

I have another that's very sharp on one side, complete with normal point, and the spine is actually a saw. It's not designed for stabbing, and is not a dagger.

I've seen double-edged diving knives that had no point worthy of the name.

It's not "two edges" that makes it a dagger, it's the "pointy stabbing" design.

takhtakaal
January 15, 2008, 12:45 AM
A knife, like a firearm, is only a tool. Objects are neither evil nor benevolent. People are.

Sikhs carry an edged implement called kirpan as part of their religious duty, after being initiated into an oder of the religion called Khalsa.

http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Kirpan

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/7453/img4808webopthx4.jpg

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/5523/1001128ou2.th.jpg (http://img90.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1001128ou2.jpg)

Nematocyst
January 15, 2008, 06:25 AM
OK, so we all agree:
knives are not always weapons.

They are first and foremost tools.

Having said that,
call me irrational,
but I want either
one of these (http://sogknives.com/store/D25T.html)
or one of these (http://www.fallkniven.com/g1/g1.htm).

Also, I'm curious:
if you were to buy a dagger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagger),
which one would it be,
and why that one?

Nematocyst
January 15, 2008, 06:55 AM
...I want either
one of these (http://sogknives.com/store/D25T.html) ...

... to match this (http://sogknives.com/store/E37S.html),
which is, so far,
the finest knife
I've owned.

The Tourist
January 15, 2008, 01:47 PM
the finest knife I've owned.

Then you've answered your own question. A "tool" isn't superior because your guru says it is, it is good because it serves you.

As a kid, I was told not to use a baseball bat by crossing my wrists. Supposedly if I ever hit a ball that way we were all doomed to world communism.

Last year I see that a pro player swings that way.

I would suggest that you do pay more attention to the steel used in your tools. Lots of newer alloys.

Nematocyst
January 16, 2008, 06:29 AM
I would suggest that you do pay more attention to the steel used in your tools. Lots of newer alloys.TT, I'm open to suggestions. Seriously.

What do you recommend?

possom813
January 16, 2008, 04:43 PM
that 'on sale' deal... I'm a sucker for such

No kidding, I like a bargain store called Big Lots and another called Freds. Just because it was on sale after Christmas, I bought a "Humvee" gift set of 3 mean looking knives that I needed so badly they're still in plastic. But for $3.50, marked down from $29.99. How could I pass that up???

I bought a Case XXXChanger a few years back because of the versatility, then it became a hassle to carry it everywhere and I was constantly worried about losing the extra blades.

I have several dozen different knives, and they all were designed with purpose in mind. I only have one that I would consider a weapon, and it's a hand made knife, styled after a bowie and is about 18" overall. It weighs in at about 4lbs, so if nothing else, I can club ya with it.

I discovered, some time ago, that instead of carrying two or three different knives to cover what I need each day, I prefer a multi-tool. I carry a Leatherman Blast(Warranty replacement on my original Leatherman). I've done everything I need with this knife, including field dressing a hog(I didn't have my ATV, and the truck was over a mile away, with the hunting knife in it)

The Tourist
January 16, 2008, 05:40 PM
TT, I'm open to suggestions. Seriously. What do you recommend?

I get good service from knives made from 154-CM, S30V and BG-42. I have clients that like Spydercos of VG-10 and the Cold Steel line of VG-1.

Boats
January 17, 2008, 02:58 AM
A dagger?

TOPS Ranger's Edge 1095--Carbon steel
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=71285&d=1200558866

Fallkniven G-1 "Garm" Fighter--Coated VG-10 stainless steel.
http://www.knifecenter.com/knifecenter/fallkniven/images/g1.jpg

Ontario Spec Plus M-7 Bayonet --1095 Carbon steel.
http://www.knifecenter.com/knifecenter/ontario/images/sp3_m7_bayonet.jpg

All of the above are a better dagger choice than a blade in AUS-8 stainless steel like the SOGs are made from.

Nematocyst
January 17, 2008, 03:53 AM
154-CM, S30V, BG-42, VG-10, VG-1, 1095 carbon steel v AUS-8.

OK, I'm listening. I'm sure this has been discussed many many times before, but humor me here for the sake of this thread: explained in a way that anyone can understand, what makes all the former superior to AUS-8?

Why do the former yield "good service" that is better than AUS-8?

I'm not criticizing the assertion. I just don't know the answer to that.

Sharper edges? More durable edges? Less rust? Less likely to break? ...
__________

Research: Found this story (http://www.cutleryscience.com/reviews/edge_testing_II.html) and this one (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=193865) that helped.

And another (http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=88726).

From that last one, a comment by Cliff Stamp:

It looks like AUS-8 was added as a baseline of sorts...
Exactly right. It is a very common steel and probably bottom of the barrel in terms of soft material edge retention

Still, I have to ask, is the difference that pronounced and worth it?

There seem to be trade offs: hold edge longer v easier to get edge back.
Then there's that cost issue.

Sorry to partially derail the discuss from tools v weapons,
but this seems to be about tool quality and maintenance.

Nematocyst
January 17, 2008, 05:08 AM
And one more point, if I may.

Let's think for a moment about hammers and screwdrivers.

IMO, both of those tools
must be of the proper length,
and need good handles.

That is, if a hammer/screwdriver
is too short or long,
it won't work as well.

Likewise, the part that you hold on to
is important in making the tool work.

If the handle is inferior,
then even if the Philip's head is made from harder steel,
it isn't going to put that screw in (take it out) better.

If the handle is inferior, or the length is wrong (for you),
then that harder hammer won't put that nail in quicker.

So, I guess what I'm saying is this:
I understand that AUS-8 of the SOGs may be "inferior"
in terms of hardness, edge holding ability, and such.

But what if we factor in the handles?
I like Kraton grips on the SOGs.
Kraton is light, molds well (great shape),
contributes to a positive grip (ymmv).

The length of that Daggert 1 blade (5.65") (http://sogknives.com/store/D25T.html)
seems appropriate for a dagger.
(An average thorax is 12" deep.)

The Garm is harder steel, & will keep an edge longer,
but seems a little short to reach a major artery
(e.g, pulmonary, aorta).

And how many times will a dagger be thrust into ... what ever?
If twenty times daily, then hard edge is important.
If once every ... , then perhaps less so.

The Ranger Edge is 1095, but my intuition suggests that
I wouldn't like that thin grip as much as one molded of Kraton.

And the blade guards of the Daggert are far more positive.

So, a question: which is most important in choosing a tool?


steel
length
handle
shape
other

Boats
January 17, 2008, 10:11 AM
154-CM, S30V, BG-42, VG-10, VG-1, 1095 carbon steel v AUS-8.

OK, I'm listening. I'm sure this has been discussed many many times before, but humor me here for the sake of this thread: explained in a way that anyone can understand, what makes all the former superior to AUS-8?

In this particular case, for a SOG Daggert 2, you are being asked to pony up the better part of a C note to own a very pedestrian blade steel.

As you no doubt found out from your reading, AUS 8 is not very well regarded, primarily due to its low wear resistance. VG-10 is much better in that regard and probably more corrosion resistant due to the addition of Cobalt.

AUS 8 is reasonably corrosion resistant, sharpens easily, and loses its edge relatively easily. Does that matter in a dagger?

Not really, if all you need to do is stab with it. Any other field task, such as batoning down a sapling (which is going to be tough on the cutting and very tough on the hammered edge, which is why daggers generally stink for survival work), making fuzz sticks, striking a fire steel, cutting rope or coarse vegetation, is going to really expose AUS 8 as the economy choice of the maker.

Why do the former yield "good service" that is better than AUS-8?

Now that I have explained my view that VG-10 is better for wear resistance, I'll tell you why 1095 carbon is my favorite for this style of knife.

It's tougher.

Laterally, torsionally, on the tip, 1095 is more flexible, more shock resistant, and more likely to hold up under extreme use than is any stainless steel.

We're talking about a stabbing knife here. The second edge grind is inherently weaker than a single edged piece of steel already due to the amount of material removed. Then, because the knife buying public has gotten lazy since the end of WW2, many makers use chromium filled stainless steels to keep things pretty.

Chromium makes knives "stainless". It also makes them more brittle and prone to breakage compared to simpler carbon steels.

Also, since the chromium goes into the steel matrix, and embrittles the steel, the alloy has to be "tweaked" to get something useable as a knife out of it. More complex stainless steels approach this problem through addition of oftentimes expensive elemental additives, Cheaper stainlesses do it by subtracting out carbon content and throwing in some nickel.

The lower the carbon content, the "softer" the metal is.

AUS 8: .70-.75 C, .50 Mn, 13.0-14.5 Cr, .49 Ni, .10-.26 V, .10-.30 Mo

VG-10: 0.95-1.05 C, 0.50 Mn, 14.50-15.50 Cr, 0.10-0.30 V, 0.90-1.20 Mo, 1.30-1.50 Co

1095: 0.90-1.03 C, 0.30-0.50 Mn

As you can see, compositionally, VG-10 has as much carbon and manganese as 1095. AUS 8 skimps on the carbon by comparison.

C--Carbon--Higher yields a harder steel.

Mn--Manganese--Added for toughness and hardenability.

Then stainlesses in these two varieties add in the following, which creates compromises in exchange for the added corrosion resistance, but AUS 8 is more compromised.

Cr--Chromium, adds stain resistance but adds hardness, too much of which embrittles the steel.

Ni--Nickel, an inexpensive additive to try and make up for the "lost" carbon in lower alloy stainlesss steels. Not present in the higher carbon VG-10.

V--Vanadium, allows for a finer grained knife steel.

Mo--Molybdenum, the element that sets AUS 8 apart from AUS 6, increases hardness. AUS 6 is a garbage blade steel in my estimation.

Co--Cobalt, the element VG-10 has that AUS 8 lacks. A kind of "do all" element that increases hardness, wear, and generally strengthens a complex alloy stainless. Adds some corrosion resistance too.

SNIP

Sharper edges?

No, all are capable of initially sharp edges.

More durable edges?

Both VG-10 and 1095 will handily outperform AUS 8 on wear resistance.

Less rust?

VG-10 wins there and any stainless over carbon steel. All knives contemplated are coated however, so this isn't a huge factor.

Less likely to break?

The simpler carbon steels win this one every time.

But what if we factor in the handles?
I like Kraton grips on the SOGs.
Kraton is light, molds well (great shape),
contributes to a positive grip (ymmv).

My only complaint with Kraton is that DEET melts it. The micarta of the TOPS is the toughest handle by far, followed by the Garm's thermo plastic, followed by Kraton.

The length of that Daggert 1 blade (5.65")
seems appropriate for a dagger.
(An average thorax is 12" deep.)

The Garm is harder steel, & will keep an edge longer,
but seems a little short to reach a major artery
(e.g, pulmonary, aorta).

The Garm seems short for a "rib sticker," but seems adequate in the throat/face area. We're not talking bullet penetration requirements from all axes here, your heart and lungs are not twelve inches deep frontally.

And how many times will a dagger be thrust into ... what ever?
If twenty times daily, then hard edge is important.
If once every ... , then perhaps less so.

The odds are much higher that the knife would be used repeatedly for more mundane tasks.

The Ranger Edge is 1095, but my intuition suggests that
I wouldn't like that thin grip as much as one molded of Kraton.

And the blade guards of the Daggert are far more positive.

So, a question: which is most important in choosing a tool?
steel
length
handle
shape
other

My favorite among the compared blades is the Ontario M-7.

Carbon steel, good length epoxy coated blade, acceptable handle, good guard design, a striking pommel, and only $40.00 or roughly half the price of the SOG with its lesser blade and "tricked out" titanium nitride coating which will wear away eventually. The SOG has a better sheath though.

The Fallkniven and the TOPS don't offer anything near the value of the Ontario either.

The Tourist
January 17, 2008, 02:17 PM
There is also the practical aspect of what makes a certain steel superior, and that's its intended life for the end user.

I'm not a big fan of 1084 or 1095. However, if I was in a survival situation where I needed to abuse a knife as a pry-bar and use rudimentary tools for sharpening, a TOPS knife in 1095 would be quite useful.

In my current daily life, I carry a Strider or an Emerson. Besides the quality, both are in the family of "higher carbon, low chrome" that fits my lifestyle.

I need some corrosion protection, but I'm not a sailor exposing my knives to continuous salt water spray. The worst I do is cut salty, buttery steak at a restaurant, or carry them in muggy pockets in summer. I am also in a position to routinely clean and oil my knives. I also use Tuff-Cloth.

(I would also carry a Buck 110 as a sheath knife in summer.)

At the moment, Emerson is using 154-CM and Strider uses S30V, and there are some BG-42 examples still on shelves. They fit my life perfectly.

In fact, Microtech makes some knives in D-2. That alloy is actually 11% chromium where 154-CM is 12%. A tisket, a tasket.

Now, if I was a sailor I would choose 440C (up to 17% chromium) or the newer H1 alloy used by Spyderco in their Salt (Pacific) style knives.

When someone says "what's the best and why," I always ask about what they do for a living.

Doug S
January 17, 2008, 02:20 PM
Interesting post. I guess that's why most often I find myself carrying a Victorinox Swiss Champ. I bet I could set about and complete a good many of the tasks listed in the original post, with my SAK. ;) I've even thought that in a pinch, the saw might make a good slashing tool.

Boats
January 17, 2008, 04:25 PM
There is also the practical aspect of what makes a certain steel superior, and that's its intended life for the end user.

I'm not a big fan of 1084 or 1095. However, if I was in a survival situation where I needed to abuse a knife as a pry-bar and use rudimentary tools for sharpening, a TOPS knife in 1095 would be quite useful.

My steel discussion was in terms of the daggers that Nematocyst and me were discussing. In a folder, the liabilities of stainless are lessened by the shorter blade length, the "pre-broken" nature of all folding knives, and the stain resistance of the steel being a more useful feature in a pocket knife than in a field knife.

In my current daily life, I carry a Strider or an Emerson. Besides the quality, both are in the family of "higher carbon, low chrome" that fits my lifestyle.

I agree wholeheartedly with carrying a quality folder. I have folders in ZDP-189, H-1, VG-10, S30V, D2, and BG-42. Most are Spydercos because the hole and lock backs work best with my lefthandedness, but I also have a few Bucks with "up-bucks" blade steels I will never part with too.

I need some corrosion protection, but I'm not a sailor exposing my knives to continuous salt water spray. The worst I do is cut salty, buttery steak at a restaurant, or carry them in muggy pockets in summer. I am also in a position to routinely clean and oil my knives. I also use Tuff-Cloth.

(I would also carry a Buck 110 as a sheath knife in summer.)

At the moment, Emerson is using 154-CM and Strider uses S30V, and there are some BG-42 examples still on shelves. They fit my life perfectly.

I believe that people place too much emphasis on corrosion protection. There are museum pieces in perfect condition that would be dark ages equivalents of 1050 that were simply well cared for. Sailors somehow got by with patinaed carbon steel, knives, cutlasses, axes, and other carbon steel implements for centuries.

The Titanic sank in 1912. The wreckage, made entirely of carbon steels, is still not collapsing of its own weight. Dissolved oxygen works more slowly than a salt water/air combo, but surface rust on a knife is completely a cosmetic issue if routine maintenance is performed, often nothing more than an odd wipe down.

In fact, Microtech makes some knives in D-2. That alloy is actually 11% chromium where 154-CM is 12%. A tisket, a tasket.

Now, if I was a sailor I would choose 440C (up to 17% chromium) or the newer H1 alloy used by Spyderco in their Salt (Pacific) style knives.

When someone says "what's the best and why," I always ask about what they do for a living.

My favorite all around fixed blade knife is a Bark River Bravo-1. It is made of A-2, a tremendously tough carbon tool steel. It has five percent chrome so that it doesn't rust just looking at it, and it gets a nice patina with continued use. I can, and do, take it into marine environments all of the time without any problem. Corrosion is more of a marketing scare than an acutal problem unless one's blade is made of L6 or something.

It's just most people can't stand not having a spotless knife for some reason that is entirely psychological.

Here is the Bravo-1

http://www.dragginganchor.com/Site/Sharp%20Object_files/P4300008.jpg

If I were reduced to one knife, it would be this one, no matter where I had to take it.

Nematocyst
January 17, 2008, 05:56 PM
Boats,

Thats a fantastic little primer on knife steel there. Just what I've been wanting to read for a long time. Thanks for offering that.

I've just started my workday, and it's a busy one (as are the next couple), so I've only just given your two essays above a quick read so far. As soon as I get some time over the next day or two, I'm going to spend more time with them.

I have one question for now that will aid my understanding about this:

AUS 8: .70-.75 C, .50 Mn, 13.0-14.5 Cr, .49 Ni, .10-.26 V, .10-.30 Mo

VG-10: 0.95-1.05 C, 0.50 Mn, 14.50-15.50 Cr, 0.10-0.30 V, 0.90-1.20 Mo, 1.30-1.50 Co

1095: 0.90-1.03 C, 0.30-0.50 MnI understand the elemental symbols, but I'm unsure what the units are on the numbers. They aren't proportions since they add up to more than 1. But I'm not sure how to interpret those in an absolute sense.

Interesting conversation here. Thanks for the thread, Arf.

Nem

Boats
January 17, 2008, 08:47 PM
The numbers listed are percentage ranges. All elements listed are for alloying into steel. The alloying elements are all traces save for chrome, which is present in some steels up to 17 percentage points.

The huge number that is missing out of the 100 percentage points is Fe--Iron. It is always assumed that the rest of the alloy's composition is iron unless a non-ferrous alloy is denoted, like beta titanium, which Mission's famous titanium knives are made from.

Nematocyst
January 18, 2008, 07:19 AM
OK, I finished my day, and decided to do some pleasure education reading.

I just read Boat's post 45: the steel 101 primer.

That's the most articulate, informative yet concise explanation of knife steel I've read anywhere. Excellent. That post alone makes this thread worthy of sticky consideration.

Your explanation of the composition of the alloys, stainless v carbon, the relevance of carbon content, the trace elements, and the shortcomings of AUS8 from lack of C and Co is enlightening. I get it. Thanks.

Your explanation of 1095 makes me appreciate my Kabar (even if I don't find it as handy for camp use as my SOG Seal Pup).

Bark River Bravo-1Well, now, after doing some reading about that Bravo, I've put it on my "to get" list. I'm impressed.

Found the Bark River page about it here (http://www.barkriverknifetool.com/sar/bravo1/index.html) (very slick graphic for handle choice), and a nicer more complete description of it here (http://www.firststopgun.com/store/detail.php?catID=13&subID=43&itemID=73).

From that last one:
The Final Result is a Heavy Duty Bushcraft/Survival Knife that can stand up to Abusive use. I'll just bet that's true.

They don't come cheap -- $170 - $250 -- but I have little doubt they're worth it.

Nem

Griff
January 23, 2008, 11:07 PM
Clearly, the problem is with the unwashed public's perception of the implement, not in the semantics of labelling.
What we're gonna have to do is each of us take a knife knewbie to a safe, well lit, professionally run and maintained knife range each week, and show them some of our side of the story.
Maybe then the evil press will stop with their hit-pieces on "Evil Assault Knives" already...

Molon LaBlade!

ArfinGreebly
January 24, 2008, 02:25 AM
That would be cool.

If only we could get the press to switch their opinions.

Maybe the public would be less edgy about cutlery.

Sadly, I despair that the legislators will get the point.

But, come what may, we must show some spine and refuse to fold in the face of opposition.

We must steel ourselves, as this process will grind on for years, and will surely test our mettle.

I'm with you, Griff.

Molon LaBlade, indeed!

SaMx
January 24, 2008, 03:14 PM
another thing you have to keep in mind with knives is not just steel, but heat treat and edge geometry.

heat treat is very important, for toughness and edge retention. If the steel is too soft when you cut something the edge can roll and deform, which dulls it very quickly. On a similar note, if it's too hard it will be brittle and chip when you cut something.

and it's the same story with edge geometry, and the total geometry of the knife. If the edge is thinner it seems sharper, but it will bend or chip more easily. A thicker edge is more durable if the knife is being used for chopping or batoning. Better steel that is hardened just right can be taken to a very thin edge and still be durable.

A good example is a KaBar, which is a pretty tough knife. It's made of 1095, which has a lot of toughness, and is cheaper. And it's made of thicker stock with a thick saber grind. If you try to slice a tomato with it, it will squish some, and bind, and act dull, even if the edge and shave hair. But you can dig with it and baton with it and stab it into bad guys and it was stand up to that. A thin chef knife could slice the tomato better, but if you issued those to soldiers, they would bend them and break them. So the knife performs very well for what it was designed for, but it might not be the best choice for you.

Green Lantern
January 27, 2008, 10:59 PM
To just answer the topic question - because a lot of people tend to think the worst of something. If a guy is open carrying and does not have a badge, he MUST be a bad guy. And if a guy has a knife, well, he MUST be Jack the Ripper re-incarnated. I hope you get my point (no pun intended ;) ), as I can't say much more about that particular subject without veering off the High Road and invoking the name of a certain wolly animal. :D

Then on the other end of the spectrum, I guess is the "tactical" crowd which does not help out a lot either sometimes. Kind of like people that sell gun parts and such that market them as "assault weapon parts" :banghead: or even "high capacity mags."

I agree that foremost, a knife IS a TOOL, and I do my part to help people see things that way. Maybe because I sometimes get snide remarks at work from people of the first mindset I was talking about about my assorted pocketknives. Never MIND how many boxes, totes, label reams, et cetera they've seen me cut open with it, they think "weapon" instead of "tool." Though I've yet to encounter any "real" trouble because of it, and don't really anticipate it.

Nematocyst
January 28, 2008, 03:08 AM
Buried at work for more than ten days.

Good to see this thread still has its edge,
making its point, refusing to fold,
grinding on ...

The Tourist
January 28, 2008, 01:28 PM
If only we could get the press to switch their opinions.

That, I'm afraid, will never happen.

When asked about defensive knives, I always answer my clients that the next time they will see a knife fight is in a retrospective of "The Westside Story." Heck, I've hung around with bikers my whole life and never saw a knife fight.

But all it takes is one newspaper headline. "Banger Slashes Businessman."

I can guaranty you that if that headline appeared in my liberal town, the only cutlery we would have is butterknives.

Having said that, we knife owners do it as well.

How many times have you laid in bed at night when at 2:00AM a little ricer car with an open exhaust power slides through your subdivision with all twenty-seven bass speakers cranked up to the "nose bleed" level? Happens here all summer long.

And even though I ride a modified motorcycle I often get miffed, roll over in the bed covers, curse, and mumble, "There ought to be strict laws for those little plastic cars..."

In reality, there might be over 100 modified ricers in my bedroom community, and only one jerk. And if I squawk about anything to my beat cop it's going to be about late night beer bottle litter and loud ricer cars.

The only way to end a bad public perspection is to sweep our own section of the street. In other words, try not to open a Godfather in front of little old lady quietly knitting.

Darthbauer
January 28, 2008, 01:36 PM
I carry a benchmade 610 which is by no means a small folder. When ever people see it they give me crap and say the line from Croc Dundee, "Now thats a knife." I have always carried a knife since I was 18 because I was mugged and said it would never happen again. So I carry it as a defensive weapon. I have pulled it out of my pocket and used it once as a weapon when I was assulted about 3 years ago. Other than that it has been a more than handy tool that I use almost everyday. The people that say that they are only weapons are the people that nothing have ever happened to and have never needed a knife for anything other than cutting food.


What I hate is when im using my knife to cut open a box and people say I should not carry that and if I need to open something I should use box cutters. Tell that to the people on the planes during 9/11. Box cutters are just as much of a weapon as a knife.

The Tourist
January 28, 2008, 01:46 PM
What I hate is when im using my knife to cut open a box and people say I should not carry that

I hear you, I work all day around knives of all sizes.

However, you are not limited to owning only one knife. I have to open numerous UPS boxes everyday since my wife and I have our inventory sent to our home. I can use anything I want there, I usually use the first thing I grab. (I'm a tad protective of my really expensive knives and that gummy shipping tape.)

However, the public are a bunch of whiners, and I own several SuperKnives, all of them with purple handles. Looks like a toy.

Just part of playing the game.

Quigley
January 28, 2008, 01:54 PM
We are lucky the Liberal Media hasn't grasped onto calling them "Assault Knives"

The Tourist
January 28, 2008, 02:16 PM
We are lucky the Liberal Media hasn't grasped onto calling them "Assault Knives"

No, but we foolishly call them tactical knives.

My EDC is a CQC-7 HD-7. One of the strongest, most useful knives I have ever owned.

Ernie originally sold some to SEALs. It is my understanding that the point was gleaned from a feudal Japanese spear.

What I view as a well made pocketknife, a liberal reporter with an agenda might refer to this same knife as "a knife bred of war, used for centuries to oppress it's own citizens."

While that might, in fact, be true, you could also use to describe any bayonet. And while our Marines always fought for freedom, the commom Ka-Bar is also "bred of war."

The key word here is "agenda." I want to cut open UPS boxes, trim string, perhaps splice an electric cord. My own common tool could actually be used semantically against my own beliefs.

Pancho
February 7, 2008, 02:01 PM
As an electrician of 35 years I think that only a butcher uses a knife more on a daily basis. I carry a knife (Tool) made by Klein tool company called a splicer's knife (tool) in a sheath on my belt and it is used just as much as my sidecutters and screwdriver. I was pulled over by the state highway patrol and the first thing the cop asked me is what was in the sheath. I said "a tool." He said "no, it's a knife." I said "no sir, I'm an electrician it's a tool." He said "Oh" end of conversation. Cops, go figure.

WinchesterAA
February 7, 2008, 03:03 PM
I think it'd take a lot more brutality than I am typically capable of to kill someone with a knife. That's a pretty horrible experience just from the times I've accidentally stabbed myself, can't imagine how much it'd suck to get stabbed in a fight.

Push comes to shove, I'll shove hard, but probably with a gun for humanities sake.

Knives? Tools in my book.

BigBadJohn
February 7, 2008, 03:37 PM
I have a lot of knives. No, I'm NOT going to count them.
I've counted mine 367 and counting, but I'm a knife nut.
My everyday is a Spyderco Calypso 3 with a ZDP189/420J2 blade it outperforms my old calypso AUS-8 in every way. I highly recommend this knife to everyone.


[img=http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/3931/spydie1vg8.th.jpg] (http://img258.imageshack.us/my.php?image=spydie1vg8.jpg)

Boats
February 7, 2008, 04:31 PM
I guess it takes all kinds. I have about 45 and I'm a knife nut too. I just don't collect, I sell off and accumulate more expensive knives.

I counted in my kitchen cutlery. My knives range from a $20.00 Douk Douk to my $800.00 Hattori Gyuto.

The average price of my knives was probably below $50.00 when I started getting serious about cutlery in 1986. Now my average folder is about $125.00 and my fixed blade knives are averaging over $250.00 because of high end Japanese kitchen cutlery.

Just yesterday I ordered a $240.00 Skookum Bush Tool Mk. I that I'll be lucky to see next January.

This one's a tool.

http://members.aol.com/dariuslovehall08/sbt6.jpg

http://members.aol.com/dariuslovehall08/sbt2.jpg

Mine will be tan micarta with CPM 3V steel. I can hardly wait.

sixgunner455
February 8, 2008, 11:20 AM
Just yesterday, a guy was walking around the office looking for a knife. One guy said, "I don't have one, I don't carry a weapon at work," to which I replied, "He's not looking for something to cut a throat or stab someone in the heart with -- he's looking for a tool. Here, this is a tool," and handed him a pocketknife.

Lots of less than clear thinking in the world.

Bat22
February 8, 2008, 10:16 PM
I know someone who carries a Kershaw Leek for utilities as well as protection. Kept sharpened, with its "Speedsafe" feature and easy carrying, I think it could be a valuable commodity in a pinch.

http://www.kershawknives.com/productdetails.php?id=60

1200 meters
February 9, 2008, 12:59 PM
A weapon is a tool employed to injure, defeat, or destroy an adversary. Weapons may be used to attack and defend, and consequently also to threaten or protect. Metaphorically, anything used to damage (even psychologically) can be referred to as a weapon. A weapon can be as simple as a club or as complex as an intercontinental ballistic missile.
Anything called "weapon" has the potential to kill if it doesn't it can be considered non-lethal. What Weapon will not kill and then be non-lethal. Blitz :confused:

GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL
February 10, 2008, 04:48 PM
The best back-up weapon you can have is another gun. Save your knife for slicing a tomato or some bologna....

Eleven Mike
February 11, 2008, 11:04 AM
Thanks for this thread, Arfin. The tendency to view knives solely as weapons has annoyed me for quite some time.

Nematocyst
February 12, 2008, 06:25 AM
I have used my Benchmade Osborne daily for years.

Only three or four times did I consider its potential as a weapon.
(While walking in dark places on the edges of downtown.)

Mostly, it cuts fruit, veges, tape, fabric, paper
... at home, in camp, and other places.

Hey, by the way, speaking of edges (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edge_of_chaos) ...

shooter429
February 12, 2008, 10:47 AM
All knives are not classified as weapons. At least in this state, you can carry your 21/2 inch folder around in your pocket and it is not considered a concealed weapon. You cannot carry a dirk, dagger or sword as such because they are.

Carry on.

Shooter429

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