Bears Still Rampaging and 10 MM will take down a bear


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Wildalaska
July 27, 2003, 12:27 AM
Note the last part...the hangun used was a Glock 10mm with yellow box 180 FMJs...he shot off the whole 10 rounds...
His girlfriend is buying a Glock 10mm too...

Marauding bruins keep Russian River closed at night
GRIZZLIES: Officials extend 11 p.m. to 6 a.m. closure through Aug. 21.

By CRAIG MEDRED
Anchorage Daily News

(Published: July 26, 2003)
With a family of grizzly bears staking out a fish-cleaning table on the lower Russian River, state and federal officials have decided to continue until Aug. 21 a nighttime closure to fishing on or hiking along the state's most popular salmon stream.

Kenai National Wildlife Refuge manager Robin West said Friday that officials are worried about public safety.

Almost two weeks after being attacked by a grizzly sow near the U.S. Forest Service's Russian River Campground, angler Daniel Bigley remains in serious condition at the Providence Alaska Medical Center in Anchorage.

Since that attack, officials say there have been no reports of the sow with two, or possibly three, tiny cubs that attacked Bigley. But another sow with three nearly grown offspring has been hanging out in recent days not far from where Bigley was mauled.

Area wildlife biologist Jeff Selinger with the Alaska Department of Fish and Game in Soldotna said the sow herself doesn't appear to be a problem.

"The sow stays back in the woods,'' he said Friday. "She doesn't seem to want to be around people. Hopefully that pattern will remain.''

Her yearling or 2-year-old cubs, however, don't share her fear of humans. They regularly wade out into plain sight in the river to grab salmon carcasses left behind by anglers cleaning fish. The cubs are big -- about the size of black bears -- and potentially dangerous.

Wildlife officials have been trying to educate them as to the danger of humans by bouncing rubber bullets off their butts. The practice known as "hazing'' has worked elsewhere, most notably in the Katmai and Denali national parks in Alaska, but the results along the Russian so far appear limited.

For these young bears, the rewards of salmon carcasses appear to outweigh the punishments of rubber bullets, although the animals do appear less bold than before the hazing began, according to authorities.

"If people get into a group and yell at the bears,'' Selinger said, "they don't necessarily run away, but they don't approach them.''

Federal and state officials involved at the river spoke by teleconference Friday morning to discuss the dangers posed by these and as many as eight other bears that have been seen in the area.

Management authority along the river is complicated. The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service manages the land on the west bank of the Russian River and the Kenai River from the confluence of the two downstream. The U.S. Forest Service controls the east bank of the Russian and the Kenai upstream.

The Wildlife Conservation Division of Fish and Game has authority over wildlife in the area. But Fish and Game's Sport Fish Division controls the fishing. Assistant regional sportfisheries supervisor Tom Vania said Friday the state isn't closing the sportfishery.

Sportfishery managers say they don't want to set a precedent for giving one of the state's main red salmon fisheries back to the bears, and they question whether an 11 p.m. to 6 a.m. closure to fishing and hiking will make the river any safer.

The closure, Selinger admitted, could simply encourage greater bear use of the Russian, leading to more problems in the years ahead. But for now, he added, it doesn't make sense to take the risk of people and bears confronting each other in the dark along the river.

"First and foremost, we're talking public safety,'' he said. "We've got a bunch of people around there with guns. If someone has to use them, it's better to shoot in the daylight than the dark.''

With 16 grizzly bears dead on the Kenai Peninsula already this year in so-called "defense of life and property" killings, biologists are, however, hoping that doesn't happen. There's nothing they'd like more than for the Russian bears to follow migrating salmon on up the river into the upper valley, which isn't visited much by humans.

Already this year, the number of DLP bears killed is so high that Selinger canceled a planned Kenai brown bear hunt for fall. Wildlife experts are monitoring the Kenai grizzlies carefully as a "species of concern.'' They fear there is a danger of the population dropping to a level at which it could no longer maintain itself. That would make extinction a possibility.

The loss of productive sows is especially worrisome, Selinger said, and eight of the bears dead so far this year are sows. One of those was shot earlier this week by a man and woman hiking the Hidden Creek Trail.

Just a few hundred yards from Skilak Lake, they got the scare of their life when they ran into a grizzly with cubs, said refuge officer Chris Johnson.

"They heard some noise off to their right, and then off to their left they saw a sow brown bear,'' Johnson said. "It charged at them. They did fire a warning shot. The bear stopped for an instant.''

Then it came on again. The man emptied a semiautomatic pistol at close range. The bear ran off into the brush. The man and woman fled.

Johnson later found the carcass. The dead animal was, he said, a lactating sow -- meaning she had cubs this year -- just like the bear that attacked Bigley not far away at the Russian River only days earlier.

Any possibility of a connection between the two attacks would, however, be pure speculation, said Fish and Game wildlife technician Larry Lewis in Soldotna. The cubs have not been found.

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Keith
July 27, 2003, 01:38 PM
Are you being sarcastic, or are you actually suggesting a 10mm is a good idea for Brown Bears? I assume you're being sarcastic, but since I can't actually see you rolling your eyes...

ANY centerfire round will KILL a bear. And indeed, this one did - some time after these people departed the area. They're just lucky that shooting the bear with such an inadequate round did actually discourage the attack for the moment.

A .45/70 or a shotgun with slugs would have STOPPED the bear, right there, dead, with a single shot.

Furthermore, when they autopsy the bear I'll bet they find some older gunshot wounds (from some other inadequate piece) to explain why it attacked this party in the first place.

Sixteen bears have been shot on the Kenai this year - or sixteen bears have been REPORTED shot... Meaning that it's very likely that twice that many have actually been shot, most of which have survived to run around wounded, angry and often unable to feed themselves - and looking to steal food or take retribution from the next human they encounter.

I think it's very likely that the kid who got mauled just recently was attacked by some bear who had been shot up by some knucklehead with a 10 or .45 or something like that.

I know I'm the same old broken record; but if you're going to shoot bears use a real gun!

Keith

El Tejon
July 27, 2003, 01:45 PM
Shooting bears with rubber bullets??? The ninnies! They are doing it wrong.

You have to use copper and lead bullets to kill bear, you moving feast you. How do they expect to rid themselves of bears if they use rubber?:scrutiny:

TallPine
July 27, 2003, 02:22 PM
Sixteen bears have been shot on the Kenai this year - or sixteen bears have been REPORTED shot... Meaning that it's very likely that twice that many have actually been shot,

Or perhaps the same bears have been shot more than once, since wounded bears are more dangerous ...?

No knowledge, just a thought ...

Keith
July 27, 2003, 02:39 PM
Tall,

It could very well be that many of the same bears are being reported several times.

As noted in the story above, there will be no brown bear season on the Kenai this year because so many bears have been shot along the rivers by weekend fisherman. The Kenai is basically suburbia, by Alaskan terms. And you get all these people driving down from Anchorage or flying in from "outside" to fish elbow to elbow along the rivers there. Most of these people are very inexperienced with bears and carrying weapons that are just, well, ludicrous! And they panic and shoot away when they see a bear that is simply "too close"... and somebody gets mauled the next day or the next week.

And it's not over yet. The Kenai fishing circus will continue into early September and more bears will get shot and cause more people to get mauled.

Keith

mons meg
July 27, 2003, 09:44 PM
If the grizzlies had .45-70s, they wouldn't have this human problem.

Wildalaska
July 27, 2003, 10:34 PM
HI Keith...a few more bits (I spoke to the young man involved at legnth about this)...

It was a sow with cubs, they were walking along making noise when he heard the bear snort...he barely had enough time to react when the bear started a charge...

He fired a warning shot at the bears feet, it stopped, then starteed again. Evidenetly he and his gf were between the bear and its cubs..

He evdiently shot it at least 5 times, it had been unwounded before. One of the shots I guess skull penetrated and dropped it..

Sounds like basically a spray and pray...

Hes a nice kid, primarly a khiker and fisherman..one thing he told me that when he got his 10mm he practiced, practiced practiced.

While I dont advocate the 10mm, its better than nothing..

Im avoiding the Kenai, I dont feel like getting shot by a tourist...when I do go heres my bear gun, out to keep the tourists awy from me :)

http://www.wildwestguns.com/EStore/Sterling.jpg :what: :neener:

4v50 Gary
July 28, 2003, 01:06 AM
Interesting that a Sterling should be posted. I recall reading a book by a chap who was Idi Amin's captain. Anyway, one of the askaris gunned down a Rhino by emptying his Sten magazine into it. :eek:

That one fellow was able to dispatch a grizzly with a 10 mm and not get hurt should not have us rushing to carry 10 mm in lieu of larger calibers guns (or the venerable 45-70). The fellow was lucky the griz didn't decide to have him for lunch before dying. I recall reading that some polar expedition had one fellow dispatch a Polar Bear with six shots from a 38 special. Sorry but I don't recall which book.

Enough rambling thoughts.

spacemanspiff
July 28, 2003, 12:41 PM
another article in sundays paper was written by an apparent anti, who said that there was more danger from people packing firearms while fishing on the kenai or russian rivers.

out of the 16 bears killed in 'self defense', how many were shot by alaskan residents? i'm curious to see if any tourists have been the ones to 'jump the gun', so to speak.

Cosmoline
July 28, 2003, 01:12 PM
I hate the fishing frenzy. I only like to fish on an ocean-going charter or on a lake I've got to myself. No salmon are worth risking your eyes--and I don't mean to the bears, either! I mean from the yahoos from the lower 48 whipping hooks around in the air.

cordex
July 28, 2003, 01:45 PM
A .45/70 or a shotgun with slugs would have STOPPED the bear, right there, dead, with a single shot.
You are assuming a CNS hit, yes?

I've seen deer with their heart and lungs utterly obliterated with a shotgun slug run quite a few yards before "stopping". Unless brown bear aren't as tough as the whitetails around here, I'd guess that the bear will continue whatever he's doing (running away or slapping something around) for a few seconds at least - even with a big-bore rifle or slug-fed shotgun.

Keith
July 28, 2003, 02:08 PM
Yeah, you're right. He may not be dead right there, but he'll probably be "stopped" if you use a reasonable firearm. A frontal shot on a grizzly doesn't present much except head and shoulders because they tuck their head low and cover their chest.
At any rate, if you use enough gun you'll probably be OK - you'll punch through his head or shoulders and put him down, at least temporarily. If he isn't dead you can shoot him again. A good .45/70 load will punch through about 4 feet of grizzly - that's a lot of damage!

A Guide Gun only weighs about six pounds. And if you go up to WW Guns in Los Anchorage, you can get a custom job that will trim off a couple more pounds. A shotgun and a box of slugs is also a cheap and reasonable firearm to pack around. It just doesn't make sense (to me) to carry a handgun for use against critters that frequently exceed 1000 pounds.

Keith

280PLUS
July 28, 2003, 08:05 PM
you'll never see me anywhere elbow to elbow trying to catch anything

well, ok, maybe a buzz at the bar:evil:

whenever i found out how much those morons will pay to spend most of their time untangling their lines for a week or two, i almost fell over

it just doesnt sound like what i want when i'm out in the great outdoors, i go there to get away from people like that

so i just want to say you alaskans don't have to worry about me coming up there to add to the clutter

and take pot shots at your bears,,,

:rolleyes:

but if there's something up there that you think i should check out when allthe tourists have gone home,,,i'm all ears

i promise to be good,,,

:D

CGofMP
July 28, 2003, 09:00 PM
another article in sundays paper was written by an apparent anti, who said that there was more danger from people packing firearms while fishing on the kenai or russian rivers.

out of the 16 bears killed in 'self defense', how many were shot by alaskan residents?

Ya know.....

Unless there's 16 dead PEOPLE laying around out there, I think said 'journalist' better rethink their particular viewpoint and delivery.

280PLUS
July 29, 2003, 08:21 AM
its the people who are invading the natural habitat of the bears

and most of them take little or no time to inform themselves on the subject

i remember a day when the cute yuppie couple and their doggie went on a little canoe trip in florida.

cute little doggie jumped out of the canoe and was immediately chowed by a big ol gator "Old Grandad" to be exact, biggest and best known gator in the swamp

the guy actually dove in and tried to get the doggie back, he had the claw marks to prove it

the couple wanted the ranger to SHOOT the gator

the ranger said no, cause the gator was just doing what comes natural, eating lunch, and the people should have known better

it took up 2 whole pages in the paper that following monday

the people should have been more informed before they took little doggie with them in the canoe

they are more informed now

this bear situation sounds similar, but i'll bet more than a few beers (as well as bears) are also involved in a lot of these incidents

i was "fortunate" enough to live with a few of these elbow to elbow salmon fishers for a while so if they were there i KNOW some alcohol was being consumed

first off, if they were smart enough not to leave salmon carcasses everywhere theyd probably do a little better

just another $0.02 worth for you all

Keith
July 29, 2003, 11:33 AM
280,

The Kenai is only a very small part of Alaska, so there's plenty of places to go and fish without being overhwelmed by knuckleheads. The problem is that you can only access a little of Alaska by road and the Kenai is part of that. To see the "real" Alaska, you have to get on a float plane or a boat.

Keith

spacemanspiff
July 29, 2003, 11:58 AM
but if there's something up there that you think i should check out when allthe tourists have gone home,,,i'm all ears
by early september, most tourists have gone home, and the silver salmon fishing is still rather good around seward, even from the beach. but theres more than enough charters that would take you to the hotspots and it shouldnt cost too much.
go to whittier and take a charter out of there, thats pretty good too.
homer's another good choice.
any of those three places should also be able to hook you up with some halibut.

280PLUS
July 29, 2003, 05:19 PM
cool,,, i'll look into it for a future trip, a nice charter sounds just about right

i dont go to anywhere unless its off season there

i could tell you more tourist in the swamp stories but then i'd be too far off topic

i got at least 1 more good one though

:D

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