Question about a W.Richards Shotgun.


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Spark7
January 6, 2008, 01:08 PM
My father left me this double barrel shotgun which I know was his fathers. I believe the date of this shotgun is between the late 19th century and early 20th century. Near the trigger it is marked "W. Richards". The barrel reads "Laminated Steel". I have searched the shotgun but can not find a date or serial number. Here are the pictures of the gun. Does anyone have anymore information?

Thanks

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Oldnamvet
January 6, 2008, 02:37 PM
It could be a Wesley Richards shotgun?? English made. Potentially valuable if so. Experts will be commenting shortly.
http://www.joesalter.com/detail.php?f_qryitem=2334

JohnBT
January 6, 2008, 04:26 PM
If it only has a W, it's not a Westley Richards. They always spelled it out.

There is an English maker named W. Richards, but their site says:

"Please Note. There are many W Richards reproduction guns throughout the world. A genuine gun will have W Richards (Gunmakers) Liverpool Ltd (or Preston/London etc) stamped on the rib between/above the barrel(s)."

Next, and probably the most likely, the American firm Crescent made hardware store guns marked with W. Richards (along with hundreds, if not a thousand other names.) About halfway down the page there is a partial list: ww.gundealersonline.com/firearmID.asp

If there is an ELG proofmark on the gun it was a copy made in Belgium. Look under the barrels.

Hope this helps some.

John

macFarlaine
January 6, 2008, 04:41 PM
JohnBT is correct.I think you have what we call an American knock off,an American gun which was manufactured with British trade names to encourage sales.I have a couple of W.Richards of Liverpool 16b,both with Damascus barrels.
I also have the gem in the W.Richards line,the Westley Richards of Birmingham.Fine examples of British gun and rifle makers.
I posted on the 16b thread one of my W.Richards.

ecilanna
July 31, 2008, 04:27 PM
I have the same shotgun.

ecilanna
July 31, 2008, 04:29 PM
I do shoot it everyday.

ActionYobbo
December 12, 2008, 11:59 PM
I have the same gun. mine is missing the fore end. any one got some good pics of the forend or even better got a forend to sell me
thanks

tube_ee
December 13, 2008, 03:37 PM
use low pressure loads only. And I don't mean cheap promo loads from wally world.

A laminated-steel, back-action hammergun was almost certainly proofed for black powder only.

There are a couple of companies making low-pressure loads for older guns, that use smokeless powders but stay within the black powder pressure envelope. If you reload, seek out the nitro-for-black loads that have been developed, or load with actual black powder.

Loading with black would seem the safest of all courses, although you must accept the additional cleaning that goes with it. Black powder is pretty forgiving stuff. Modern fast shotshell powders... not so much.

Older guns in good working order can be safe to shoot... if, and only if, you stay within the pressure realms that they were built for. That's not possible with most modern shotshells.

--Shannon

justajoe
December 20, 2008, 12:19 AM
Hello, I also have the same gun. I am very interested in selling it and have NO idea of it's value. I signed on with the hopes that someone could help me figure it out. Any assistance will be greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance.

Dave McCracken
December 20, 2008, 08:19 AM
Westley Richards shotguns are well made and highly sought after.

W Richards shotguns are almost all cheap knockoffs, sold for a few dollars new and now qualify as shotgun shaped artifacts,not firearms.

Sorry.

Ron James
December 20, 2008, 08:34 PM
The shotguns marked W. Richards are Belgium imports. They are not American nor English.

justajoe
December 22, 2008, 07:56 AM
After further investigation of our W. Richards shotgun, we noticed the initials; SF between the barrels on the underside. Does anyone know if this is of any significance?

JFageaux
December 30, 2008, 01:20 PM
I purchased the same gun at a garage sale for $25.00 about 3 years ago. It also has the initials SF
between the barrels, don't know what it stands for???

Tom Held
December 30, 2008, 05:07 PM
I think it means "Stand Faraway" when you shoot it. Tom

jrf4au
January 2, 2009, 03:33 PM
I have one of these guns as well and am trying to figure out if it is authentic. mine has w.richards on both sides of stock, and laminated steel on top of barrel. The end of the stock has a deer head and what appears to be NF on top of each other like a symbol. any help would be appreciated. thanks, james

whitecloud
January 15, 2009, 04:59 PM
JRF4AU, could you post pictures of that shotgun? Is it a hammer gun and what is its overall condition? Even though these are not the Westly Richards famed shotguns, some of these are fairly great shooters, regardless what some might say!Thank you.

Tony Maxwell
January 17, 2009, 03:04 PM
I too have a Richards with the proof marks ELG. Any ideas who in Belgium may have manufactured it? The butt plate has 3 dogs chasing a larger animal possibly a pig. Interesting. Purchased it in New Mexico possibly used as a stagecoach gun. Serial number 1750.

USAF-AMMO
January 26, 2009, 07:01 PM
Pull off the wooden grip under the barrels, you wil find some numbers and symbols there.

I was given a W. Richards Shotgun, that has "LONDON FINE TWIST" between the barrels.

I have E-mails W. Richards to see if they could help me find out any history

rickomatic
January 26, 2009, 07:51 PM
I was given a W. Richards Shotgun, that has "LONDON FINE TWIST" between the barrels.

USAF AMMO,
I have one with the "London Fine Twist" on the bar between the barrels too. My wife got it for me years ago as a wall hanger. It's been hanging above our wood stove on some Muley antlers. I think I'm gonna move it downstairs to my recently finished reloading/gun room. :D

vetteblaster
February 13, 2009, 03:23 PM
I also own a doublebarrel shotgun with the W.RICHARDS engraving on it. It says on the barrel something like ckct steel, liege, belgium, underside says ELG 182,and down the barrel 1387 and three other numbers farther down ? Does anybody have any more info on this gun?

rcmodel
February 13, 2009, 04:44 PM
I was given a W. Richards Shotgun, that has "LONDON FINE TWIST" between the barrels.Yours too is a Belgian no-makers-name shotgun sold by hardware & catalog stores all over the U.S. in the late 1800's.

It is neither a real English Westley Richards, or even close to that grade of gun.

Pull off the forend and you will find Belgian black-powder proof marks I betcha.

Any ideas who in Belgium may have manufactured it?These were a "cottage industry" made gun at the time.

One place made the barrels, another the locks, and another the wood. Then they were assembled somewhere else.

Sears & Roebuck sold similiar Belgun guns for $8.95 in 1902. An American made Ithaca sold for $25.10.

A real handmade English Westly Richards would have been several times more then that!

rc

rickomatic
February 13, 2009, 05:34 PM
Not completely off topic, but, my brother in law recently asked me (I'm considered the gun guy in the family) about an old shotgun he'd gotten. His looks to be of a similar age as my W. Richards, but his is marked W. Parkhurst. From the little bit of information I've been able to find, these too were cheap knockoffs of fine English guns. Anyone familiar with the W. Parkhurst shotties?

Ron James
February 13, 2009, 06:09 PM
W. Richards shotguns are Belgium made, Inexpensive Belgium made at that. They are not fine English shotguns and not Fine American made shotguns. They were not not used as stage coach guns nor were they used by Doc Holiday at the OK Corral. Laminated Steel barrels is another word for Damascus or welded steel. if you shoot these guns with modern loads please don't let anyone you care about stand close to you, sooner or later they will blow. Even the best Damascus made shotguns are reproofed before they are used with light loads. These shotguns were sold by H&D Folsome, who by the way owned Crescent Firearms Co. Because of this fact some people will say they were made by Crescent. No, you will never find a W. Richards shotgun with out the Belgium proof mark on both the barrel and receiver. I have the name of the import agent who imported them for H&D but I don't want to dig through my records. Who made them in Belgium?? While Belgium did have some premier gun makers, these shotguns were made under contract. Meaning?, one cottage maker would made the barrels, another the receivers and yet another would make the stocks and put the parts together. :) On the shotgun ( not shottie, a shottie is a snot rag ) marked Parkhurst, pull the forearm, if you find the letters ELG in a circle or oval it falls in the same class as the W. Richards. If you find just a crown and perhaps a pair of crossed spears ( Haliberts) then more reseach is in order.

Terry Linderman
June 1, 2009, 10:55 PM
I also have a W. Richards, 10 ga. double barrel muzzle loader. From what I've learned so far, it is not a Westley Richards, could be a genuine English W. Richards, or could be a Belgian knockoff (often made by Crescent, an American company that knocked off just about everything). Mine doesn't have Belgian proof marks, not sure what the proof marks are, but might be Birmingham. Anybody have British proof marks from that far back (probably pre-1850)?

Bud Tugly
June 1, 2009, 11:16 PM
I've always wanted to get one of these old doubles. Would it be safe to shoot modern ammo if you used a set of 28 gauge or .410 insert tubes in one?

Terry Linderman
June 2, 2009, 08:46 PM
This is a reply Ron James message posted Feb 13, 2009. While there are many reproduction guns, usually from Belgium, there was also an English gunmaker W. Richards. See http://www.wrichardsguns.co.uk/. Most of the discussion assumes that W. Richards guns were reproductions of Westley Richards guns, but according to the company websites, W. Richards was established in 1780, Westley Richards not until 1812. So which company were the Belgians trying to knock off? I don't know, but I'm curious. The gun I have is a 10 ga. muzzleloader, marked "W. Richards" and "London Fine Twist". According to the W. Richards company, genuine guns are stamped "W Richards (Gunmakers) Liverpool Ltd (or Preston/London etc)". Mine does not have such a stamp, but it does have what appear to be Birmingham proof marks, which I have attached. I got them from another website, and I'm not sure where they came from, but they don't look like any Belgian marks I've found so far. If anybody has any more information on these guns, I'd like to hear about it.

Skoghund
June 4, 2009, 11:17 AM
Cheap shot guns were not only made in Belgium but also by the Birminghan gun trade. so they would have Birmingham proof marks These were often stamped with the ironmongers name who sold them. They were sold as farmers guns.

nannygoat
July 24, 2009, 12:27 AM
mine appears to have a 16 under barrels
any clue what that is?

Fieldmaster63
August 7, 2009, 10:50 AM
The one I have has the same proof marks as Terry's. It also has 403 stamped under the forestock as well as a 7 followed by a mark I can't distingish and then an 11.

HoldiHoov
September 7, 2009, 08:13 PM
I recieved an old to what i believe so far a very old westly Richards double barrel shotgun. London fine twist is stamped on the barrel ridge. Numbers on the reciever and barrels match, there are two stamps of crossed swords on the reciever, and two small stamps of the crown with what looks like a very small R in the middle. there is no date on the gun, only Ser # 23284. Is this a authentic Westly? the stock behind the reciever is broken, and a barrel cracked, any collector worth? or do i have a nice new mantle gun?

glbryant22
September 15, 2009, 09:07 PM
I received my Grandfather's gun today from my uncle. Double-barrel, 12 gauge, double trigger and double hammers. It says Richards Belgium. The right hammer is misssing. Any clue where I might find one?

brucehowell
October 8, 2009, 07:45 PM
I have a W.Richards 12 guage double barrel shotgun that was made about 1870 and was my grandfathers gun and has been in my family since approx 1905. It has W.Richards on both side gunn, I have found no other markings are numbers. It has the orginal stock on it, but is cracked. I would like to get it appraised. Does anyone know of someone who could do this in the Dallas Texas area. My name is Bruce Howell and my email is: rrhowell@sbcglobal.net

Thanks Bruce

dswang
November 22, 2009, 08:56 AM
Westley Richards shotguns are well made and highly sought after.

W Richards shotguns are almost all cheap knockoffs, sold for a few dollars new and now qualify as shotgun shaped artifacts,not firearms.

Sorry.
I bought a W. Richards 12 gauge for $490 at a public sale here in pa. this past april 2009 that was not advertised. it was in fair shape. One Antique dealer was there and he ran it up on me. I did some research. It has a laminated barrel, made in england between the barrels w/the crown of england stamped under the fore plate. the gun is hand engraved, in fact fine engraved. I sent it to a professional gun restorer who has bee an antique gun restorer since he was 13. he is 82 now and has restored 54,000 + guns. I have put another $1500 in restortion. It was professionally apraised for $17,000. I called a gun auction in San Francisco and they are very interested in it. Fire destroyed most of the w. richards records in England, but phonecom w/them indicated it is the "REAL DEAL" probably made in or around the 1850????

Dave McCracken
November 25, 2009, 10:45 AM
dswang, it can happen, but rarely. Belgian copies of real W Richards gun or those trading on the guilibility of new purchasers are much more common.

AZ_Rebel
November 25, 2009, 12:43 PM
...my brother in law recently asked me (I'm considered the gun guy in the family) about an old shotgun he'd gotten. His looks to be of a similar age as my W. Richards, but his is marked W. Parkhurst.
I have a old coachgun marked W. Parkhurst and have done some research on it - pm me and I will be happy to share.
http://dickdejong.fileave.com/IMGP0627comp.jpg

Welcome to Gunbroker dswang!:)

I bought a W. Richards 12 gauge for $490 at a public sale here in pa. this past april 2009 that was not advertised. it was in fair shape.... I sent it to a professional gun restorer who has bee an antique gun restorer since he was 13. he is 82 now and has restored 54,000 + guns.

:confused:hmmmmm.... 82-13= 69 years.... 54,000 guns/69years=782 guns per year.... 782/365=2.144 guns a day considering he worked every day of these 69 years???:confused: This was a BUSY man! :eek:Cough bs cough cough....:evil:

I have put another $1500 in restortion. It was professionally apraised for $17,000.
Man... I hope you took the $17,000 and ran like h-ll!:evil:

Stubby00
November 26, 2009, 07:55 PM
My W. Richards has s#7607 stamped on forearm and reciever, it is double Hammer/ trigger with alot of fine engraveing that match from barrel to butt plate. the crossed Halberts and crown stamped on both barrels and a small brass (I'd call it a sherriff badge shaped) piece on the under side of butt stock. any coments or insights would be most helpfull. I'll not sell but I have quite an interest.

30mmavenger
December 16, 2009, 12:50 AM
We also have a double barreled shotgun stamped W. Richards London Laminated Steel on top rib and also found marks of: crossed swords and crown, and a diamond shape with what appears to be 12 over G and also the number 14. Also there is the number 17662 found along with a 3 by itself in one spot. Plus a brass shield-shaped plate on the underneath stock. My father in law inherited this and we do not have much history on it. It is in great shape and shows some usage but is missing nothing. Has a carving of a buck and two does on the butt. Any ideas if this may be the real thing ?? Thanks for any input!

Dawn

jimbeamdrkr
February 1, 2010, 10:44 PM
first let me ask you guys a question my double barrel muzzle loader only has richards printed on it there is also no serial numbers or any other marks on it that i can tell it has a checker board stock i know that its probably a knockoff which i purchased for only a 100.00 now its a wall hanger i just wanted to know what year it dates and if there is any value to it if not it still looks good on my wall thanks to anyone that can help

oneounceload
February 1, 2010, 11:03 PM
needing to know if my double barrel muzzle loader is a knock off or worth anything
first let me ask you guys a question my double barrel muzzle loader only has richards printed on it there is also no serial numbers or any other marks on it that i can tell it has a checker board stock i know that its probably a knockoff which i purchased for only a 100.00 now its a wall hanger i just wanted to know what year it dates and if there is any value to it if not it still looks good on my wall thanks to anyone that can help

First - not to be rude, but punctuation helps some of us figure out your question more easily.

Secondly - not enough data. pics would really help. With just "Richards" IMO, it is a cheap knock-off. Take the forearm off and snap pics of the water table and flats with all the marks.

Chilled Rider
February 22, 2010, 09:10 AM
I have one of these shotgun and would like to learn some history about it. My father gave it to me and am planning to use it as a "wall hanger". If it is valuable I probably would not do that. Any info would be greatly appreciated. Is it a 12ga?

Ted

flatpicker9972
August 12, 2010, 07:18 PM
I have a W. Richards but my looks a bit different from som I have seen. The forarm is metal with a metal arm you swing and it opens the shotgun. Double barrlled with hammers.
Jerry

flatpicker9972
August 12, 2010, 07:31 PM
Sounds like a gun-smith is trying to make some money on the restore. Watch him.

Dave McCracken
August 12, 2010, 11:21 PM
Flatpicker, that action is a very early one and not very strong. Later W Richards, both Belgian clones and British originals had more strength.

stagecoach
January 17, 2011, 07:07 PM
i just posted about a w.richards shotgun . the barrel release is on the top between the hammmers could somebody give me an idea on its age. there are no other stamp marks on it, except under the front grip....rt barrel 9039 ag the letter in front of the s is not legible, left barrel has a 32. the underside of the grip (stamped is 4 77) contact me at (stagecoach)

mgkdrgn
January 18, 2011, 04:44 PM
This may help some of you.

Westley Richards - ALWAYS spelled out, never seen as W.Richards.

W. Richards = Many many many variations on this. There -was- a quality London gunmaker called W.Richards, and his guns are fairly easy to sort out. (see attached)

There are also numerous Belgian knockoffs of the W.Richards (London) design. They are, at best, wall hangars.

There are -also- american made knocks offs of the Belgian knock offs of the W.Richards design.

Bottom line .. if it doesn't say Westley Richards, spelled out, it's not worth much, and most likely not worth anything. I for one would not shoot ANY of them.

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