223 Case Neck Tension


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Mr.Revolverguy
January 6, 2008, 11:07 PM
All,

I got a Hornady New Demsion dies set for christmas to finally start reloading my rifle ammo again. I am not totally new I have been reloading for 16 years just got out of rifle reloading about 6 years ago because I wasn't shooting much, no rifle range close by I was just restricted to pistol. Well I full length sized 150 pieces of one shot fired LC brass then trimmed them all to 1750 and then primed them. Only to find out when I went to seat the bullets there is no neck tension the necks are to large and the bullet falls right into the case. I followed the directions to a T when setting up the Hornady FL resizing die, it does touch the case shell holder at the top of the stroke.

Is there anyway to fix this without having to deprime and waist 150 primers? :banghead:

The bullets are hornady 60grain vmax .224

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mc223
January 7, 2008, 12:16 AM
You could try removing the expander ball. And while you are at it check the expander ball for correct size. Call Hornady and explain the problem. They will make it right.
I switched from the tapered carbide expander to a steel and polished to the size I wanted.

don
January 7, 2008, 01:08 AM
As I recall, you should trim the brass before you run it through the sizing die. If I am wrong please feel free to correct me. I seem to remember that when I was loading .243 brass I mistakenly trimmed the brass after sizing it and experienced the same thing. I am not familar with your case trimmer,but mine reamed out the neck as it trimmed the case. In short, after sizing the neck was squeezed down to accept bullet. When I trimmed it after sizing it the neck was reamed out and the bullet was too loose in the case. ALWAYS TRIM BRASS BEFORE USING RESIZING DIE. Suggestion: try wrapping a piece of paper around bullet to hold it in the shell, then set your die to crimp. the crimping may hold the bullet in tight enough- worth a try.

Idano
January 7, 2008, 01:58 AM
Mr.Revolverguy,

Don is correct you need to trim before you resize. I know if you are using the RCBS case trimmer the pilot will expand your neck, but not the case you use the Possum Hollow or similar trimmer that trims off the of the shoulder datum.

Mr.Revolverguy
January 7, 2008, 07:00 AM
Nah not the case of the trimmer. I am using an a very old lee full length trimmer chucked in a drill. The rod that goes through the case is not big enough to flare the neck. But just to take your advice I went and trimmed 5 cases then sized them and the same story. I am about to return the hornady dies and get the RCBS ones. This is the first set of hornady dies I have used the rest are RCBS and 2 sets of Lee.

So is there anyway to fix not having to waste 150 primers. Is it possible just a cllet sizer from lee that does the neck only will fix this issue. I know for a semi auto you should full length size all the brass and I plan on doing such, but it would be nice to fix this issue.

By the way if you trim before you full length size you will be trimming after also because the die will resize it and 90% of the time it will be over the specs of 1750

Luggernut
January 7, 2008, 02:33 PM
Hmmm. I've been told to resize then trim. If you trim first then resize the trim length would be lost. You guys have me baffled. FWIW I've successfully done this and have plenty of neck tension. The sizer expander ball shouldn't remove the neck tension.

EDIT: the 223 rounds I've done were using the new Hornady dies as well.

Vern Humphrey
January 7, 2008, 02:49 PM
Clearly it's the die at fault. Either it's not sizing the neck properly, or the expander ball is too big. Try removing the decapper rod from the die and running a case through and see if it gives you adequate neck tension. If it does, it's the expander ball. If not, it's the die.

Contact Hornady and tell them the problem.

Mr.Revolverguy
January 7, 2008, 07:18 PM
I called and spoke with Hornady today. I explained the problem to the gentlement and his first words to me was "ok and how do you want me to help you". I told him well I thought maybe I could get some guidance maybe I was doing something wrong. He said "well not sure I can do much there". Then it was the weirdest thing where we both sat in silence for a few moments. So then I asked him well can I send it back. His reply well sure if thats what you want to do, we surely can't fix it over the phone. At that moment I started to ask for his supervisor and you know what thats what I should have done. But instead I took the easy way out and said look you are surely not very enthused about helping me so I will just do this. I will trash your dies and go out and get me some RCBS dies tonight. And recommend to as many as possible based on this support to never ever buy hornady products. He then said thats an option as well. I then got the gentlmens name and hung up. I wrote a letter to hornady tonight with the gentlemens name along with the date and time I called. So tonight I went out and purchased a set of RCBS FL dies and sure enough the hornady dies was the issue. Everything is now fine.

Roccobro
January 7, 2008, 07:45 PM
Definitely not a happy ending. Sorry that had to happen. I've read many times that hornady is actually very helpful when called. I guess not all stories get happy endings that way.

At least your back up and running making some good ammo! :D

Justin

Norseman_01
January 7, 2008, 08:47 PM
I have always resized before trimming. I don't recall ever reading that you should trim before resizing.

dmftoy1
January 7, 2008, 09:02 PM
I'm sure this isn't your problem but I thought I'd relate a story of a stupid friend of mine. (ok . .you guessed it . it's me. :) )

I picked up a Hornady "Match Grade" neck sizing die for my .308 and was all set to reload some new rounds for my Savage . . . I messed with that damn die for about 30 minutes and couldn't figure out why I had the same problem you were having . . .turns out you have to purchase a sizing bushing for those dies in addition to the dies. You said you have "new dimension" so I'm sure that's not your problem . .but I was sure I had a bad die there. :)

acidbath
January 7, 2008, 09:44 PM
I know this doesn't apply to the OP, but to set the record straight...

You never trim before resizing. The act of resizing causes drastic changes in the dimensions of the brass. Resizing basically fixes most things that changed when the round was fired. Except for certain length dimensions. That's why you trim.

Mr.Revolverguy
January 7, 2008, 09:44 PM
Yes I have the new dimension version which is my understanding for not needing the bushing.

Norseman I have a few manuals that say you should size before trimming. But if what you are doing works for you great. I know that if I size any of my brass after trimming no matter what caliber it is stretched beyond the original trimming.

Mr.Revolverguy
January 7, 2008, 09:49 PM
Yes I have the new dimension version which is my understanding for not needing the bushing.

Norseman I have a few manuals that say you should size before trimming. But if what you are doing works for you great. I know that if I size any of my brass after trimming no matter what caliber it is stretched beyond the original trimming.

Idano
January 7, 2008, 09:54 PM
Hmmm. I've been told to resize then trim. If you trim first then resize the trim length would be lost. You guys have me baffled.

I have always resized before trimming. I don't recall ever reading that you should trim before resizing.

Gentlemen according to my Speer manuals 9 & 10 under the section step by step reloading: Step 1 - is clean, inspect and Trim. Step 2 -Resize.

You might want to double check your reloading manuals to make sure my information is correct but I have always trimmed my brass first. If you resize first and use the RCBS lath trimmer the pilot will have to be forced into the case; I know I have screwed up before and resized before I checked the length and then had to resize again because there was not enough neck tension afterwards without crimping and I don't crimp .223.

Mr.Revolverguy
January 7, 2008, 10:09 PM
Hmmm

Lyman 47 and 48 says to resize then trim, Hornady 3rd edition says resize and then trim. For some reason Speer #12 just skips the trimming process all together. They tell you that you will need a trimmer and explain why but when they go through the steps they skip the trimming process which I never noticed before.

Now that Hornady has t'd me off I think it is time for me to take their manuals out to the range as well and see 44, 454, 460, 500 all do against wet hornady manuals :)

bigbird1
January 7, 2008, 10:15 PM
I bought a ton of Hornady products, So I am really upset to hear about your service. I found a berdan primed case after about the 5th case I did and it bent the decaping pin and spindle. I called them this week and they sent me a new one no charge ,and the lady was very nice to me . I almost felt like I should have paid for it. Your guy must of had a bad day , too bad he had to be in customer service. Let us know what they say, I really want to hear the end of this. I have heard nothing but good about their service .

I checked the size of my expander and it is .2225 at largest point , if it helps

Mr.Revolverguy
January 7, 2008, 10:16 PM
http://www.jarheadtop.com/article_reloadquant.html

http://www.alliantpowder.com/beginner/how_to_cartridges.htm

Ol` Joe
January 7, 2008, 10:22 PM
Cases stretch when sized and should be trimmed AFTER SIZEING.
Try measuring a fired case then resize and remeasure. The sized case will be longer. This is because the brass has to flow somewhere when the case wall is squeezed back down in diameter and like toothpaste in a tube it "squirts" up and out of the top. Firing expands and thins the brass outward, resizing compresses the brass, but it doesn`t thicken back up but flows in lenght. Trimming before sizing will result in uneven lenght brass and possible crimp problems.
This is one of the reasons bottle neck cases last longer when neck sized then when full sized. The only brass moved is from the neck area and not the body.

BTW for a good example of brass flow, take a new 45 acp case, measure and record the lenght. Load and fire it then remeasure and again record the lenght. Resize and measure again. I`ll bet the new case is longer then the fired, and the resized is longer then the fired, but shorter then the new..

Idano
January 7, 2008, 10:25 PM
Gentlemen:

I just checked my Sierra and Hornady manuals and they contradict the Speer manuals with Resize first and Trim second, go figure. Hell, I guess that means there is no absolute. I can see where the case can stretch if you your not using a RCBS X-Die if you trim first, but I also have experienced the RCBS case trimmer pilot slightly opening up the the case too. Since I am using the X-Die I think I will stay with Trim then Resize.

Vern Humphrey
January 8, 2008, 09:48 AM
I will trash your dies and go out and get me some RCBS dies tonight. And recommend to as many as possible based on this support to never ever buy hornady products
Let's do this -- post the Hornady email address and let's all contact Hornady and complain. Tell them we're reloaders, and we feel obliged to let fellow reloaders know about Hornady.

Post the guy's name, too.

Vern Humphrey
January 8, 2008, 10:09 AM
I just posted this at the Hornady site:
A participant in a well-known shooting website is reporting shocking behavior by a Hornady Customer Service representative.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=329308

The partcipant has a flawed Hornady New Demsion die set, and when he called Hornady, he reports this:

"I called and spoke with Hornady today. I explained the problem to the gentlement and his first words to me was "ok and how do you want me to help you". I told him well I thought maybe I could get some guidance maybe I was doing something wrong. He said "well not sure I can do much there". Then it was the weirdest thing where we both sat in silence for a few moments. So then I asked him well can I send it back. His reply well sure if thats what you want to do, we surely can't fix it over the phone. At that moment I started to ask for his supervisor and you know what thats what I should have done. But instead I took the easy way out and said look you are surely not very enthused about helping me so I will just do this. I will trash your dies and go out and get me some RCBS dies tonight. And recommend to as many as possible based on this support to never ever buy hornady products. He then said thats an option as well."

If this is the way you treat your customers, why would I ever want to buy another Hornady product?

The email address is webmaster@hornady.com

Luggernut
January 8, 2008, 10:29 AM
Mr Revolverguy- sorry about your problems with Hornady. I will go on record in saying I've had quite the opposite experience with their service... honestly. I use mostly Hornady and RCBS reloading equipment with some other components scattered.

WRT dumping Hornady- it's certainly your choice but I think it's harsh. I think everyone needs to realize that EVERY company has a bad egg in the bunch or someone just has a bad day. Service is a tough job (I'm not in service) and even though it sounds like you got someone that clearly just didn't care to help you that day I wouldn't jump ship. FYI I have ZERO issues with RCBS (service too) as well. If you think Hornady products are crap then that's another issue- I don't share that view. Ironically I think I've had my fair share of problems but the service has been top notch. I once broke a decapping pin/expander ball in a Hornady die because I set it wrong (my bad). Called Hornady and a free new one was on its way without question.

Ol` Joe
January 8, 2008, 10:30 AM
You`re sure they were not the "New Dimention Match grade" like these? https://www.hornady.com/shop/?ps_session=952e0a85d7059f60815d419019e17534&page=shop%2Fbrowse&category_id=2f63d207c8b26346189f23b970d57c8f

The fact the necks were loose both with, and without, the expander being used stumps me. I`ve heard of the wrong expander button coming with a die before but never a die reamed out to the point it wouldn`t size down the neck. There is always a 1st and I don`t doubt you had a problem with the die, but I am wondering if it was a wrong marked box?
Still no excuse for rude service though...

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