What should I say to the Executive Vice President of First Data?


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boredelmo
January 8, 2008, 03:05 AM
You guys should all know the news about them cutting off ties with CDNN:

http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Talk/talk.politics.guns/2008-01/msg00304.html

His/her father is living in my room right now, I'm stuck in my sisters :(. He/she is family. I will call him/her tomorrow.

What do I say? What do you guys want to know? Are people canceling accounts because of this? How big of a deal is this to firearms owners?

Serious replies only please. I'm doing my part for our Pro-gun movement... Yay.

-Elmer

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Deamon
January 8, 2008, 06:58 AM
Um I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Personally I'm cutting off all dealings with CITI and I'm encouraging everyone I know to cease all patronage of CITI. I don't tolerate financial meddling such as this.

skidmark
January 8, 2008, 07:09 AM
In no particular order -

Are the comments about the "reason" for the termination accurate? Is it all because somebody feels CDNN's business is "immoral"?

Are the statements in the 12/26/07 letter vetted by corporate legal? Did Citi really believe that CDNN was violating the law(s), and if so, what was their evidence or reason to suspect that? Again, was this run past corporate legal?

Are they nucking futs?

Did anybody anticipate the backlash this will create? Did anybody prepare to respond to the stockholders once this hits the media and/or the fan?

Will Citi review the account status of all other account-holders and take the same action against any others found with practices similar to CDNN's? (In other words, what is Citi doing to avoid a discrimination type lawsuit? I know selling guns is not a civil right, but there is more than likely some sort of restraint of trade or other category they can be sued under.)

Are they nucking futs?

Did anybody prepare a plan to respond to the potential loss of revenue from the backlash from this move? How's that working? (I know it is very early, but ask them to revisit the question in 6 months.)

Did they know about and approve this prior to it happening? Would they have preferred to have known about it in advance?

Are they nucking futs?

It's early in the AM & I'm still in a state of amazement.

stay safe.

skidmark

JWarren
January 8, 2008, 07:23 AM
Since ANY firearms sales from any on-line retailer MUST go to a licensed FFL, I do not see what non-FTF sales have ANYTHING to do with their concern.

Please add my voice to those that will cease ALL dealings with the company. Furthermore, I will use my voice to insure that others do the same. I personally can think of 12 people RIGHT NOW that are not aware of this situation but WILL be outraged enough to cease dealings with the company as well.

What is it they say about word of mouth? Please a customer and he will tell one person. Anger one and he will tell 20 persons....



-- John

robear
January 8, 2008, 07:29 AM
Here's a copy of the letter from CITI / FirstData I found on NSSF:
http://www.nssf.org/share/images/letter.jpg

Glad I don't have any CITI accounts, but I need to see if any accounts I DO have are in any way related to them.

Time for a "ZUMBO"

R

10 Ring Tao
January 8, 2008, 07:58 AM
They are obviously acting either out of ignorance of the law, or making a direct affront to every gun owner and person whose livelihood stems from the shooting industry.

The former can be fixed, the latter cannot.

If it is the latter, I'll gladly cut up my citi card. With so much credit competition out there, I can undoubtedly find a card with better terms and rewards.

JWarren
January 8, 2008, 08:07 AM
It sounds to me like an activist move by the company.

I can hear them saying "We can't change the Constitution, but we can deny gunowners the ability to purchase guns. Afterall, if you control the financial networks, you control the policy.

OR...


They are SO stupid that they actually believe things that some of the anti-gunners spew about being able to order "assault rifles" on-line with no regulation.


I think it is some of both. Sadly, this is the new trend in our country.... Making HUGE decisions based upon sound-bites, and not bothered to check the accuracy of the statements. AND then defending your original decision by altering your reasoning if those statements prove to be wrong.

Ignorance and Pride... that is the trend these days.


-- John

30 cal slob
January 8, 2008, 08:20 AM
It sounds to me like an activist move by the company.

i'm not so sure about this.

citigroup has been through the wringer on a number of fronts and have been beaten up by financial regulators for seemingly the past decade. remember the dot-bomb stock scandals? i think they had to shell out a billion quid to settle that mess.

now, they have to clean up their subprime loan exposure. they have $55 BILLION in subprime loans. they've identified $10-$15 BILLION of these loans that are probably worthless. there are probably other shoes to drop.

all this basically tells me that they're clamping down on the risk controls and, in usual fashion, are over-reacting to anything and everything after the fact.

i wouldn't be surprised if Citi goes bankrupt. nowadays, who knows if "too big to fail" is now "too big to bail." if that happens, the merchant clearing services will be sold to somebody else who doesn't have such a big stick up their butt about lawful firearms transactions.

taliv
January 8, 2008, 08:24 AM
zumbo-time for sure

TX1911fan
January 8, 2008, 09:11 AM
I'll cancel my credit card with them if this is not taken care of. If they do the right thing and rescind this letter then I'll keep it. Tell your cousin this, and I'll be writing a letter of the same effect, to both the crazy woman who wrote the letter and to Citibank customer service.

AndyC
January 8, 2008, 09:26 AM
[quote]"We were contacted recently by First Data/Citi Merchant Services by a June Rivera-Mantilla stating that we were terminated and funds were
being seized for selling firearms in a non-face-to-face transaction,"
said Charlie Crawford, president of CDNN Sports Inc. "Although
perfectly legal, we were also informed that no transactions would be
processed in the future, even for non-firearms. I find this very
frightening."

:what: :fire: :fire:

PennsyPlinker
January 8, 2008, 09:52 AM
I looked in my wallet, and yeah, there is a CITI card in it. I would be glad to cancel it, although I don't think it will impress anyone. I haven't charged anything on it for over two years, and before that any time I did, I paid it off right away. They will probably be glad to see me go! :eek:

Big Boomer
January 8, 2008, 09:53 AM
To hell with rescinding the letter they should never have done it in the first place! If I had a CITI card it would be in the trash right now!

I would also have them add to the account specifically WHY you are canceling the account.


http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u17/Drizzt_11/Smiles/gun.gif

MakAttak
January 8, 2008, 10:03 AM
I am cancelling my Citi account.

I had already planned on weeding out the extra credit cards and now I know which ones to dump.

Thank her for making my decision easy. Goodbye Citi.

(Ironically I had just discovered a citibank in my area and was considering moving accounts there to simplify... guess that's not gonna happen either.)

Mr White
January 8, 2008, 10:04 AM
My mortgage is thru CitiMortgage. It didn't start out that way, but it was sold to them. I don't have any Citi CCs.

Is this worth refinancing to a higher rate plus? I don't think so, but I will write to the induhviduals listed and assure them that I will never do business with Citicorp again.

Robert Hairless
January 8, 2008, 11:02 AM
Questions to ask.

Background:

CDNN is responsible for operating its business in accordance with federal and state laws. Those laws provide for firearms sales at a distance between seller and buyer. Federal and state agencies are charged with enforcing those laws. Those agencies evidently allow CDNN to continue in business, presumably because CDNN operates its lawful business in a lawful manner.

Questions: Part 1


Is CITI a law enforcement agency?
Under what authority--federal, state, or local--has CITI assumed law enforcement responsibilities and powers?
Does CITI have law enforcement responsibilities and powers superior to those of existing law enforcement agencies in the area of firearms sales?
Are CITI employees sworn officers?


Questions: Part 2


Does CITI have evidence that CDNN is violating or has violated federal, state, or local laws?
If so, has CITI presented that evidence to the appropriate law enforcement agencies?
If not, why not?


Questions: Part 3


If CITI is not a law enforcement agency and has no evidence that CDNN violated any laws regarding firearms sales, what is the extent of the liability CITI assumes for the acts of CDNN and its customers?
How does CITI plan to discharge the liability it has assumed by virtue of CDNN's past sales?
Why does CITI assume liability for the acts of its merchants and their customers?
Is CITI concerned about the liability it has assumed for the acts of merchants in other businesses and their customers?
How does CITI enforce its responsibilities in those other businesses that use CITI to process their receipts--as for example to restaurant customers who are made ill by foods served in restaurants and to automobile owners whose cars are involved in accidents or to pedestrians injured by those cars?


Questions: Part 4


Does CITI refuse to process transactions with other lawful businesses and/or professions operated within the law?
Does CITI refuse to process transactions with political parties such as the Democratic, Republican, Libertarian, Communist, or American Nazi parties?
Does CITI refuse to process transactions with physicians, pharmacies, automobile mechanics, new and/or used car dealerships, booksellers, web sites, or newspaper, book, or magazine publishers?
What investigative process does CITI employ to determine and certify the bona fides of the above enterprises and others with which it does business?
How does CITI justify its methods of operation in these areas in a free enterprise system in which lawful businesses entitled to operate?
Is CITI the beneficiary of any federal, state, or local monies?

strat81
January 8, 2008, 11:15 AM
Here's a copy of the letter from CITI / FirstData I found on NSSF:
http://www.nssf.org/share/images/letter.jpg
Jeez, did anyone read that!?!?!

The third paragraph makes it sound like a handgun can never leave the state in which it was manufactured.

Picknlittle
January 8, 2008, 11:20 AM
I just left June a voice mail. The phone number was in her letter to CDNN.

I basically asked what CDNN was doing that was illegal and was she even aware of what the laws are governing firearms sales! What a fruitcake!

possom813
January 8, 2008, 03:16 PM
Personally I'm cutting off all dealings with CITI and I'm encouraging everyone I know to cease all patronage of CITI. I don't tolerate financial meddling such as this.

I couldn't have said it better myself. I can think of about 6 other folks that will be canceled in the next few days.

-John

cyclist
January 8, 2008, 03:50 PM
We cancelled all accounts with CitiBank and CitiCard several years ago due to their policies and actions, and it had nothing to do with this latest thing.

If you really want to pursue this (you being the original poster of this thread) then ask if the news is accurate, and if so then ask if it was based upon legal reasons or political reasons or other reasons. If you want to tread into dark waters then ask if they also prohibit the use of their cards for any other types of purchases. Based upon the answer you receive, if any, you can proceed from there.

junyo
January 8, 2008, 03:57 PM
So they'll process transactions for porn or alcohol or (perscription) drugs, do cash advances for a 19 year old to an ATM on the floor of the Vegas Mirage, but not legal firearm sales?

See this is where I go all "big gov" if I'm the POTUS or a state governor and revoke their ability to lend, to use the police to repossess or to use the court system to collect until they agree to process all lawful transactions.

ravnew
January 8, 2008, 05:06 PM
I will be calling my SmithBarney broker tomorrow, I'll post what I find out.

SomeKid
January 8, 2008, 05:16 PM
The part about seizing funds, that just screams that they want sued. I have a hard time believing it can be true. To do such a thing would open them up to such liability, would it not?

As for the OP, ask this guy what he knows about it. If he pleads ignorant, inform him. Then, inform him he is no longer welcome in your home and boot him out. No place to go? Tough. See how the big shot likes getting the short end.

hecate
January 8, 2008, 05:36 PM
First Data is more responsible for this than Citicorp. Citi Merchant Services is a division of First Data Merchant Services. The Citi name is used under license.

Here in Omaha, First Data has the reputation of having the highest IT employee suicide rate in the area.

browningguy
January 8, 2008, 05:42 PM
The part about seizing funds, that just screams that they want sued. I have a hard time believing it can be true. To do such a thing would open them up to such liability, would it not?

Absolutely not true, it's part of the agreement that you sign. When they close or cancel an account a certain figure, based on average return rates, it maintained by the processor to cover any future returns or customer problems.

But let's see about actually doing something to get Citi to take positive action. Lets get some email addresses and start writing, when they see millions of $$$ in potential customers running from them they might change their minds.

browningguy
January 8, 2008, 05:56 PM
OK, here's a link to send Citi a message:
https://www1.citibank.com/domain/contact/visitor_email/form.htm

I just sent them a note, with a link to the NSSF letter, and asked them to clarify if this was Citi's position. I advised them that the answer would have a direct bearing on my future banking relationships.

Sistema1927
January 8, 2008, 06:12 PM
His/her father is living in my room right now, I'm stuck in my sisters . He/she is family. I will call him/her tomorrow.

I am confused. Are you telling us that you don't know the gender of your relative?

SomeKid
January 8, 2008, 06:12 PM
browning, would the money be returned to the rightful owner after a period of time?

TexasRifleman
January 8, 2008, 06:36 PM
I am confused. Are you telling us that you don't know the gender of your relative?

No, he's saying he isn't going to divulge it to us, don't blame him for that.

Ian
January 8, 2008, 06:42 PM
The letter suggest Citi has a complete misunderstanding of what makes a legal gun sale. I would start the conversation by making the assumption that this is a legit (if incredibly stupid) misunderstanding, and that Citi will drop their objections once properly educated. That would be a good way to try to keep everything friendly and amenable...if you kick off by accusing him/her of being an evil gungrabber, things probably won't go well (and if he/she/Citi really is an evil gungrabber, than it won't matter what you say anyway).

doc2rn
January 8, 2008, 06:52 PM
I will be changing financial institutions this week. My Debit card has CITI emblem on it, and this explains why the last two times I tried to use it at the Gun Club failed. I am going to also seek local redress with the BBB.

Doggy Daddy
January 8, 2008, 07:05 PM
Wow.

My Home Depot card is from Citi. A quick check online shows that they also provide cards for Bloomingdale's, Sears, Macy's and Staples... plus Citgo, ExxonMobile, and Phillips 66 - Conoco - 76 gas cards.

I'm guessing that more THR members might have Citi accounts than at first thought.

I'm also thinking that (if this is all true) these 8 or so companies might have something to say if their customers cancelled their cards because of Citi's 2A stance.

May be interesting times ahead. :scrutiny:

hotpig
January 8, 2008, 07:11 PM
Ian

I tried doing this back in August when I tried to set up a new account. They were not interested in copies of the laws and my shipping policy.

Blackbeard
January 8, 2008, 07:48 PM
I have two Citi cards, and have had them for a long time. They are the only credit cards I use, and I use them for everything. I've purchased all of my firearms and most of my accessories and ammunition with them.

I would like to be certain that this is Citi's position, and not just First Data's edict using the Citi name, before I terminate my relationship with them. If it's just First Data then I'm not sure closing my accounts would hurt them, as they are a merchant services company.

Fred Fuller
January 9, 2008, 04:10 PM
Elmo,

I think when Ms. Rivera gets the shredded remains of our Sears Citi cards (an account that's more than 10 years old), the cover letter will explain everything pretty well. I've called several times and left polite messages requesting a callback to discuss the situation, but for some strange reason I haven't heard from her.

Please tell the Veep that, or PM me his/her office address if you'd rather we sent him/her the remains of our Citi cards.

I'D RATHER DO BUSINESS WITH CDNN THAN CITI! Tell 'em that.

lpl/nc

whitetiger7654
January 9, 2008, 04:56 PM
Wow.

My Home Depot card is from Citi. A quick check online shows that they also provide cards for Bloomingdale's, Sears, Macy's and Staples... plus Citgo, ExxonMobile, and Phillips 66 - Conoco - 76 gas cards.

Thankfully I don't shop at or have cards to any of those places.

Superlite27
January 9, 2008, 08:44 PM
What would I say to the VP of First Data?

I could only hope he was standing next to me. Here's what I would ask him:

"Around what figure do you think your stock will bottom out at because of this policy?"

A possible follow up question could be:

"By the way, they don't pay you in stock options do they?"

gunsmith
January 9, 2008, 10:07 PM
People ship handguns all the time, what "ban" are they talking about?

I worked as security at Citigroup, one Sansome st San Francisco in the late 1990's.

Their policy was to have unarmed guards confront armed assailants, I told my
supervisor that there is no way in ...er..heck I am going to anything like that.

I would have never opened a citi account anyway due to their management
policy of expecting unarmed guards to die for them while they treat them like dirt.

The only thing I want you to tell him is that when the crazed gunman storms SF HQ at one Sansome, security is running away and letting you fend for yourself!

I only have one credit card and it aint citi, I will however strive to not do any biz with any citi subsidiary.

JWarren
January 9, 2008, 10:11 PM
OP, any updates on this? We are on pins and needles here. :)


-- John

addison
January 10, 2008, 12:15 AM
In all seriousness, what can you possibly say that might change your cousin's mind?


I've got a cousin of mostly similar bent, and twisted logic (Being a die-hard BDSer, ranting and raving about "tax cuts for the rich" didn't stop my cousin from magically sheltering and protecting the Father-In-Law's estate (about a $5M USD windfall). "But, they'd have taxed OVER HALF! I can't afford that! They'd have taken EVERYTHING!").

I can't think of a thing that I could say to get through to my cousin. Even my ribbing about "Gee, ain'tcha glad for those cuts now that you're the 'rich'"?...) failed to get through.

Your cousin spent a lot of time deciding how to do this thing. Facts - won't matter.

Logic - irrelevant. This is about nothing more than proving what they can do. Oh, you want guns? Well, not if payment's going through us.

Soon, insurance? Not if you've got guns. Employment? Sign here, please, testifying that you don't own guns. Our lawyers advised us.


No, seriously, there's nothing _useful_ you can say to your cousin.

Sorry. I hope you do say something, but it's not going to change anything.

So cut loose.

skidmark
January 10, 2008, 08:53 AM
Your cousin spent a lot of time deciding how to do this thing. Facts - won't matter.

Logic - irrelevant. This is about nothing more than proving what they can do. Oh, you want guns? Well, not if payment's going through us.

Soon, insurance? Not if you've got guns. Employment? Sign here, please, testifying that you don't own guns. Our lawyers advised us.


No, seriously, there's nothing _useful_ you can say to your cousin.

Sorry. I hope you do say something, but it's not going to change anything.

So cut loose.

Addison,

We do not yet know that the OP's cousin is the author of this "policy". The OP offered to discuss the issue wuth simeone who may have enough juice to reverse the action and correct the thinking of the person who authored the letter to CDNN - or just cut that person loose as an unwanted liability.

Let's give the OP and their cousin some time to discuss the issue and see what develops. If nothing else, Citi - via the cousin - should be getting the word that there is a small but vocal group who are outraged and willing to move their $$ elsewhere if the policy is not revoked.

Patience. We can always reheat the tar if need be.:evil:

stay safe.

skidmark

joebogey
January 10, 2008, 09:02 AM
Patience. We can always reheat the tar if need be.

Yeah, but it's tough to unpluck the chicken. :D

Fly320s
January 10, 2008, 11:02 AM
Staples. :evil:

addison
January 10, 2008, 12:32 PM
Skidmark:

Based on what the OP said, the cousin would have had input into this.

I appreciate the concept of "waiting to see", but based on my experience in bureaucracies, family, businesses, by the time something like this occurs, it is either a well-planned decision, or a off-the-cuff cock block by some lowlife in the chain.

Given the legal ramifications of seizing money, I cannot imagine it's the latter.

Even if it was the latter, I think the bureaucracy's plan will be to double-down on the policy.

I just can't feel optimistic that the OP will be able to get across to the cousin a point that will cause the OP's cousin to reverse course. It's just not likely in the nature of the cards. The OP asked for suggestions and help for ways to convince the cousin - my opinion is it's a done deal.

I'd love to be wrong, but given the position and relative power, Citi's going to shrug off this momentary bad press, just as they have every other shafting of consumers, and juggernaught ahead.

IMO, of course.

boredelmo
January 10, 2008, 03:16 PM
Left a message with the assistant. It's sad he/she wont return a cousins call.

FYI, I am not trying to convince, more so than asking key questions and their reasoning for their position on the subject.

Flfiremedic
January 10, 2008, 05:46 PM
June will not accept messages, and Rob denies being her supervisor.

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