9mm +P+ loads for use in Uzi submachine gun


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Byron Quick
January 8, 2008, 08:12 PM
Southern Ammunition Co. http://www.southernammo.com/index.htm had IMI 9mm +P+ ammunition a few months ago for $159.00/1000

The past couple of months they've had nothing in stock at all. I called to see if they had any information of when something would be in stock. Apparently everything they had was bought by other companies in bulk and everything they know they're going to get has been contracted to other companies. They couldn't say when they would be selling to the public again.

So, I'm looking for +P+ load information for my Uzi.

Question: can I use regular 9mm brass in such loadings?

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CZ57
January 9, 2008, 11:03 PM
Byron, +P+ suggests that pressure is higher than the max for +P at 38,500 PSI. To take this a step further, +P (38,500 PSI) is no higher in pressure than the original pressure spec for 9 X 19mm @ 35,700 Copper Units of Pressure, CUP. In my experience, the designation +P+ is usually used to indicate higher velocity, not necessarily higher pressure. Although I've seen 40,000 PSI mentioned as a suggested pressure limit for +P+, no actual limit exists. In the past, +P+ was also used as a designation for ammo restricted to LE Only. As an example, three of the best performing 115 gr. +P+ LE Only loads: Remington Secret Service load, Winchester Illinois Sate Police load and the Federal LE Only load, have velocity under 1300 FPS from service pistols. By handloading, you can achieve that without any need for even a +P designation. The ammomakers were pretty much trying to keep warmer 9mm loads away from those who might shoot them in their Antonio y Cleopatra 9mm made in Lowgradio Steelio, Spain. Powder and OACL are a couple of prime considerations. I would suspect that IMI would probably be one of the faster rounds available, but I'd have to see pressure data to believe it actually runs over 38,500 PSI, +P.

Personally, I like the Remington 124 gr. JHP. Its tougher jacket requires higher velocity for best performance. Your Uzi load may be FMJ and I have just never found a reason to buy FMJ when bulk JHPs run around the same price. The Rem JHP will work and function just as well as an FMJ and has a rounded ogive profile. Data is a critical aspect: you will need an older manual (i.e. SPEER #11) where 9 X 19mm pressure spec runs 35,700 CUP and no powder faster in burn rate than HS-6 should be contemplated, IMO. Vihta Vouri has 3 powders that are well suited for the purpose, N350, 3N37 and 3N38. If you can get ahold of their #2 load booklet, you won't have any problem building a load to match the IMI ammo. 3N38 was not available at that time. As far as American Powders, very few will push 9mm bullets faster than Alliant Blue Dot, Hodgdon HS-6, or AA#7 with bullets 124 grains and heavier. If you intend to continue using FMJ, you need to know what the maximum allowable Overall Cartridge Length is. A simpler approach would be to take the OACL from some IMI loads if you still have some on hand, and if you want to use their bullet, or something very similar in shape (Ogive). For the Remington 124 gr. JHP, I use an OACL of 1.142"/29mm, but you can go longer. I have loaded for a SIG P-226 using the OACL for 9 X 21mm @ 1.161"/29.5mm. I use several powders like V-V 3N37, HS-6, Blue Dot (If you like visual effects, aka muzzleflash) AA#7, Vectan SP-2 (not likely you'll find any) and Ramshot Silhouette. Hodgdon Longshot can be used, but I haven't used it. My suspicion is that IMI probably uses AA#7, but I can't confirm that. The slower burners will give you higher velocity in the longer tube of the Uzi.

I would recommend CCI-500 Primers and the only difference in quality 9mm and 9mm +P brass is the headstamp. I have reloaded +P+ brass, but I don't know a source other than factory ammo. I don't believe it is necessary unless you really want to exceed the original pressure spec of 9mm @ 35,700 PSI/38,500 PSI which is today's +P. Then you will find it very difficult to obtain data if, in fact, the case is constructed heavier as powder charges must be reduced for the lesser capacity. The same velocity can be achieved without exceeding actual +P pressure. You might also want to jump over to Brian Enos' Forum and look at how serious IPSC competitors load 9mm Major (definitely +P+), but very long OACLs are required because a good many of the loads go in to 1911 Race Guns and they load in standard brass. The powders I mentioned are top choices among IPSC competitors. Glocks are used as well; it and the SIG P-226 are only restricted in OACL by the magazine. Something the SEALs didn't inform the Army on when they selected the P-226, while the army chose the Beretta. Not bashing Berettas. I'm fond of the design and fired +P ammo in a Taurus PT 92 AF earlier today.

I can give you load data by PM if you give me some parameters: I like flash, I hate flash, FMJ, JHP etc.;)

Byron Quick
January 10, 2008, 07:11 AM
Thanks for the reply. I'm basically just noodling right now. I've got to send my Uzi to Vector to have some work done on it. I have to get my reloading bench built and set up. Hell, I have to buy powder and primers.

I do have some of the IMI +P+ on hand

Galil5.56
January 10, 2008, 08:54 AM
Byron,

Does the loading have to be a "+P" or "+P+"? I burned up a lot of 115 FMJ/7.0 grains HS-6, very non +P loads through an UZI model B with perfect functioning and very good accuracy. Although mine fired from a closed bolt, perhaps you are shooting from an open bolt, and need a little more oomph.

Note that the load I mention can be upped a bit more, and would add a bit more cycling power.

Byron Quick
January 14, 2008, 02:24 AM
No, the loads don't have to be +P or +P+. Guess I'm assuming more is better.

My Uzi was converted to selective fire back in 1986. Fires from the open bolt.

Mtdew
January 14, 2008, 03:31 AM
run.... don't walk away from the IMI surplus. It's caused mutiple bulged barrels from squib loads and some/much of it is corrosive.

I didnt buy it when it was 79/1000 due to those issues.

WWB is the same price dosen't do any damage to the gun and works great in both OB & CB SMG's

jeepmor
January 14, 2008, 08:08 AM
Since you have some IMI cartridges on hand and want to replicate the load. Pull a cartridge apart to see what powder is inside and weigh it. If you have a decent inventory of powder, you might be able to find a match.

CZ has already given you a lead with the AA#7. I'd start there. As for primers, extract one from your cannibalized cartridge and see what matches. I'm not certain if all primers are contructed similar enough that you couldn't tell, but it's worth a try. In 9mm, primer differences will probably only change the speeds by 50fps or so across the board, if that.

If you're going to make barnburners for the 9mm, set them apart from the regular stuff if you think you have a handgun that they might be a bit harsh on. I wouldn't shoot that stuff in my PT111 pocket auto for instance. Okay, maybe one magazine's worth just for grins, but not a healthy diet by any stretch.

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