Virginians, Stand up and pay attention


January 9, 2008, 04:54 PM
I'm aiming this specifically at Virginians, we need to GET active and STAY active! Please write your representatives and let them know how you feel. Please join the VCDL for Lobby Day! (

If nothing else send in some $$$ and join the VCDL and give 'em some leverage to work with.

As for those of you not in Virginia, take heed! This sort of stuff is most likely going on in YOUR STATE as well weather you know it or not.

From the VCDL Newsletter...

A heap of bad gun bills have come in today. Bills will continue to
flood in until January 18th.

I need to make a general statement here, because many of the bills
fall in a category that is a knee-jerk reaction to the Virginia Tech

VCDL will STRONGLY OPPOSE ***any*** bill that takes away gun rights
from someone who is involuntarily committed to OUTPATIENT treatment.
If a person is a real danger to themselves or others it is absolutely
ludicrous and a dereliction of duty for the courts to assign them to
outpatient treatment! Would mass-murderer Charles Manson have been
assigned outpatient treatment? Of course not! He was a true danger
to society and was segregated from society as he should be.

If a person has been assigned outpatient treatment, our view is that
he cannot be considered a legitimate danger to himself or others,
unless government has screwed up again, like they did with Cho.

Here's how it really works: If a judge thinks a person is not a
danger, but wants to force him to get some treatment, the judge will
rule the person is a "danger" so that the judge can legally commit the
person to get outpatient treatment. Thus, games are being play with
the term "dangerous" solely to get a legal ability to force someone to
get treatment.

You should not lose your rights if you are not adjudicated to be truly
dangerous to yourself or others.

Here are the bills that came in today. Out of 18 bills we oppose all
but one, and that one we are neutral on. Still think you don't need
to come to Lobby Day on January 21st?:

HB 588, Delegate Marsden, makes BB guns fall under concealed weapons.
BB guns were removed from this category just a few years ago. VCDL

HB 592, Delegate Marsden, private sales at gun shows must have a
background check (the infamous, but imaginary, "gun show loophole").

HB 608, Delegate Eisenberg, takes away the right of someone to protect
themselves in their own home with a firearm if they have a protective
order issued against them. VCDL STRONGLY OPPOSES this bill.

HB 653, Delegate Wright, makes CHP information so that it cannot be
released. VCDL IS NEUTRAL on this bill, pending a better bill that we
believe is coming.

HB 657, Delegate Griffith, makes a person who is found incompetent to
stand trial unable to possess a firearm. We would support this bill,
BUT it also says a person who is "involuntarily committed to an
outpatient facility" is also banned from possessing a gun. That makes
it a non-starter. VCDL STRONGLY OPPOSES this bill.

HB 697, Delegate BaCote, allows localities to ban guns in libraries.

HB 709, Delegate Janis, bans someone who has been involuntarily
committed to inpatient or **outpatient** mental health facilities to
be banned from getting a gun. Again, we could support this bill but
for the outpatient wording. VCDL STRONGLY OPPOSES this bill.

HB 734, Delegate Caputo, bans guns in libraries. VCDL STRONGLY
OPPOSES this bill.

HB 741, Delegate Caputo, bans someone who has been involuntarily
committed to inpatient or **outpatient** mental health facilities to
be banned from purchasing, possessing, or transporting a gun FOREVER.

HB 745, Delegate Caputo, private sales at gun shows must have a
background check (the infamous, but imaginary, "gun show loophole").

HB 746, Delegate Caputo (who else?), bans guns in child day centers.

HB 810, Delegate Ward, requires the State Police to be notified with
24 hours if a machine gun is permanently at a new address. Just one
more unneeded law to trip up a law-abiding citizen. We think the
machine gun registration with the State Police needs to be abolished,
not enhanced. VCDL STRONGLY OPPOSES this bill.

HB 814, Delegate Ward, wants questions about firearm ownership to be
asked of protective order respondents. Gun owners are yet again
vilified with no gain on preventing crime. VCDL STRONGLY OPPOSES this

HB 815, Delegate Albo, makes a person who has been temporarily
detained, but subsequently agrees to voluntarily admit themselves for
mental help to be denied their gun rights. Who would want to
voluntarily seek help if they have their rights taken away from
them? VCDL STRONGLY OPPOSES this bill.

HB 835, Delegate Moran, takes away the right to have a gun for anyone
held to be incompetent to stand trial. VCDL could support this bill,
but it slips in wording about "involuntary treatment" (outpatient)
being a disqualifier for gun ownership. A non-starter. VCDL STRONGLY
OPPOSES this bill.

SB 222, Senator McDougle, takes us down a slippery slope. Virginia
law used to allow a juvenile 14 or older to have felonies removed if
they stayed model citizens until their 29th birthday. Then they took
certain violent felonies out of that mix: murder, kidnapping, robbery
if firearms were used as a threat, and rape IF the person was found
guilty before July 1, 2005. This bill strikes that language and will
disarm people who have stayed clear of crime and have successfully
owned guns for many, many years. It's retroactive nature is
particularly egregious. VCDL OPPOSES this bill.

SB 226, Senator McDougle, bans someone who has been involuntarily
committed to inpatient or **outpatient** mental health facilities to
be banned from getting a gun. Again, we could support this bill but
for the outpatient wording. VCDL STRONGLY OPPOSES this bill.

SB 231, Senator McDougle, bans someone who has been involuntarily
committed to inpatient or **outpatient** mental health facilities to
be banned from purchasing, transporting, or possessing a gun FOREVER.

VA-ALERT is a project of the Virginia Citizens Defense League, Inc.
(VCDL). VCDL is an all-volunteer, non-partisan grassroots organization
dedicated to defending the human rights of all Virginians. The Right to
Keep and Bear Arms is a fundamental human right.

VCDL web page:

If you enjoyed reading about "Virginians, Stand up and pay attention" here in archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join today for the full version!
January 9, 2008, 05:16 PM
I'll be there.
Roll call! Stand and be counted!

January 9, 2008, 05:17 PM
See you there Zoom6Zoom!

January 9, 2008, 05:30 PM
I am pissed off at Dave Marsden. He was campaigning for office and came to my door and into my home. He looked me in the eyes and told me that he believed that the gun laws in VA were at a good place and would not make a move one way or the other for ANY new law... yet he has placed two laws into the hopper.

I plan on making it to the Lobby day on the 21st so I can let him know I am upset with him for lying to my face (plus to meet with other legislators). As long as the inlaws are not in town I plan on being there...

January 9, 2008, 05:43 PM
I'll be there the 21st and am bringing a new friend I made working the VCDL booth at the gun shows!

Look for the guy in the blue wheelchair wearing a VT hat with a "Guns Save Lives" button on it!

January 10, 2008, 10:10 AM

I have made up my mind to be there as well. Anyone dressing up in a suit or something like that? I figured Business Casual would work for me.

January 10, 2008, 06:50 PM
I'm thinking upscale casual. Maybe a sports coat.

January 11, 2008, 04:41 PM
Information has been updated on the VCDL page (

Do You Want More Gun Control?

Because that is exactly what the anti-gun crowd is pushing for in the wake of the tragedy at Virginia Tech!

This year, your attendance at Lobby Day is more important than ever! We need a big turnout to send a strong message to the General Assembly: We want less gun control, not more.

Lobby Day is Monday, January 21st and we will meet in the lobby of the General Assembly starting at 10 AM.

More details at this link (

There is, of course, no formal dress code but we're encouraging folks to dress a little upscale if they can. Still we'd rather have you there in old jeans and a T-Shirt than not at all.

If you have a CCW permit then concealed carry IS ALLOWED and since showing that gun owners are responsible (even when they actually have <gasp> real guns on them) is part of the point you might want to consider carry (again, if you have a valid CCW permit).

Tin Gizel
January 11, 2008, 04:52 PM
I'm trying to get off of work, if I can, me and the old lady will be there.

January 11, 2008, 04:56 PM
No Camo Please!!!!!

January 14, 2008, 09:58 PM
How about it Virginians? I hate to be pushy but now is one of those times to stand and be counted!

January 15, 2008, 08:55 PM
Ditto on the "No Camo". Here's some other things to leave at home for this event:

They can have this gun when they pry it...
There's a place for all God's creatures next to the potatos and gravy
Confederate Flags
Jeans with holes in them

Bring your "Guns Save Lives" buttons. I have a bunch, and will be bringing some spares.
Dress in business casual if you can, or a suit.

January 18, 2008, 04:59 PM
We NEED to make a strong showing...PLEASE!

January 18, 2008, 07:04 PM
I'll be the 50 year old guy in the blue wheelchair wearing a VT hat with Guns Save Lives on it. Introduce yerself with yer handle from hear. It'll be great to meet ya!

OB guns: I'll probably be discreetly packing a .380 in my black leather vest.

Debunk Brady
January 18, 2008, 07:19 PM
The one that concerns me most is 592.

Let me ask, since I am shamefully uneducated on the how state governments run, can you tack on riders? And if so, couldn't we get someone on our side to tack on a rider that says something to the effect of "no gun registry shall be kept by state government, any document identifying the purchaser of a weapon must be destroyed within two days of the date of sale..." etc. If no records were kept of the individual sales (or any other sale), that would take the teeth out of most of the threat, IMO.

Also, how does a background check work for an individual sale? Do individuals have access to something sufficient, or would this just essentially ban individual sales?

January 18, 2008, 07:31 PM
Evening all, I have a question. I see that this starts at 10am, but how long does it run? My wife works that day and I've got my kiddo, so I can only be there for a few hours or so. Is it still worth coming out?


January 18, 2008, 07:37 PM
It will be over at 12 as I recall... either way, YES! PLEASE come! Every body counts!

January 18, 2008, 09:02 PM
The wife and I will be there.

January 18, 2008, 11:59 PM
I am bringing a friend of mine along.

Tin Gizel
January 20, 2008, 05:17 PM
I got the day off and will be there with my old lady.

Nothing can stop us now. (knocking on wood)

January 20, 2008, 08:46 PM
Going to bed early so I can get an early start.
DAMN it's cold outside tonight (just went and filled the truck up).

January 21, 2008, 08:10 PM
Be proud, we had a pretty good turnout (I would estimate 200-250 people).
Funny, the "Million Mom March" folks had about 50 people and stayed long enough to give a couple of rants and lay on the ground for 3 minutes.

But of course the "managed media" angled their shots carefully to make it look like a lot more MMM folks were there (most of that crowd was VCDL) and they say "hundreds of protesters" lumping us in with them. Poor MMM, THEY know how outmatched they were even if the "managed media" tries to spin it some other way.

Go to and look for the video link "Hundreds Protest Gun Laws at Capitol"

Andy J
January 21, 2008, 09:16 PM
I am hotter than a cheap pistol......Been a lurker here for some time, all day long the news, has made it sound like we where out numbered 3 to 1 by the anti's.

Glad to learn it was the other way around. I have been searchin' the net for ANY info on how it went today. I have been waiting with bated breath for a update from VCDL, but it has not came yet (but I am certain one will come)

But read these news stories, they make it sound like we was outnumbered....:fire: :cuss:

Earlier today, stories, much like the one above was common place, they appear, for the most part, to have been taken down.

Now it seems like they are starting to get it right..,0,3570231.story

January 21, 2008, 09:52 PM
Great turnout, a HUGE thanks to all those who came out today.

I was VERY pleased at the dress and demeanor of 99.999% of those who came out in support of our cause.

Only a very few chose to open carry but I know that were a huge number who zipped right in past the dectors. I had to use the handicapped entrance and a guard stopped me, took my ids and brought and brought them back in a minute or so and waved me on in.

Police presence was very low and low-key. No issues at all that I saw.

A good day in all. :)

Winchester 73
January 21, 2008, 10:11 PM
Although a Floridian,I've been a VCDL member since 2005.
Virginians are leading the way, to my mind,as a statewide group standing strong against usurpation of our Gun Rights and being steadfast on the 2nd Amendment.
My utmost admiration for you citizens of the Commonwealth and your fight for our most basic freedom's.

January 22, 2008, 01:45 PM
Here's the update Phil sent out last night. It was a great day, I was glad to see so many of you there!

We estimate that almost 400 gun owners showed up at the General
Assembly today!

There was a SEA of orange "Guns Save Lives" badges on all floors.

It was truly impressive. The cavalry had arrived!

The metal detectors were going off almost continuously at times and
the overwhelmed police had to bring in extra people to handle the huge
load to check CHPs!

Once inside, people were assigned to a team. The teams went through
the building talking to Delegates and Senators and leaving VCDL
Legislative Analysis documents with aides. I talked to some aides who
were quite impressed with the quality of the VCDL people and the sheer
number of members that seemed to be everywhere.

Elevators were jammed with people and even the stairs were jammed!


I arrived at 8:30 AM for the hearing of SB109, Senator Marsh's "Gun
show loophole" (AKA, the private sales registration) bill in the
Senate Courts of Justice. Testimony on the bill began at 10 AM. The
antis got 35 minutes to speak, as did our side. Only two or three VT
parents spoke, the rest of the speakers were either police (disgracing
the badges on their uniforms) or lobbyists.

The antis brought up their usual baloney and misleading "facts."
Colonel Massengil and the Superintendent of State Police (who was in
uniform) spoke in favor of the gun show bill. Massengil tried to
tout himself as being pro-gun.

When asked by one of the Senators how many criminals got their guns at
a private sale at a gun show, the Superintendent had to admit that he
didn't know.

While the antis spoke, all the gun owners were quiet and did not
disrupt or heckle them.

But, when our turn came to talk, things were different.

Joel Patridge, the NRA lobbyist for Virginia, was heckled and applause
at the heckling drowned him out at one point. He looked at Senator
Marsh, the committee chairman, to bring order. But Marsh, who had
been running the meeting with an iron fist before, just sat there for
a while and then weak-wristedly brought down the gavel and the room
finally came to order.

I spoke after Joel, and it was even worse. Again, as I spoke the
antis heckled and were very unruly, clapping loudly and long at the
heckling. When there was an outburst, I would stop speaking and wait
patiently for Marsh to get around to bringing order. The suddenly
weak-wristed Marsh would eventually get around to bringing order.

When I started pointing out that the bill would be onerous on dealers,
gun shows, and private sellers, Democrat Senator Saslaw shamelessly
playing to the hecklers, ask me if the VT parents had been
inconvenienced. ( More on Senator Saslaw other antics in an upcoming

Again unruly applause and heckling took over the room as Marsh sat
there impotently.

In the end the committee decided to vote on the bill on Wednesday at
the 2 PM meeting. I will be there for the vote. I am optimistic -
delaying the vote was probably done because Marsh didn't have the
votes to pass his bill. But it isn't over until the fat lady sings.

***If you have NOT contacted your representatives on SB 109, PLEASE DO
SO NOW!***

Our side presented itself well and the antis showed themselves to be
their usual rude and inconsiderate selves.


At 12:45, EM Dave Vann was taping signs on member's backs with
messages like, "Freedom is NOT a loophole." The members then headed
over to stand around the antis when their protest started at 1 PM.

We had about 200 people show up at the protest, dwarfing the
approximate 100 antis!

As I approached the protest, I was taken aback by the image of all
those white VCDL signs blanketing the protest, drowning out the antis'

And the antis got mad. They tried to get us kick out, but the police
told them that their protest was a spectacle, which draws spectators.
He pointed out that we weren't doing anything but standing and
observing, all of which is protected by the First Amendment.

The antis, fuming, walked away from the police officer to pout
somewhere else.

We had one member assalted by an anti who shoved him out of the way,
saying, "This is OUR protest!"

Nice people, aren't they?


It is 10:30 PM as I write this and I am STILL at the General Assembly
listening to key mental health bills. Activist Roy B. Scherer was
kind enough to loan me his computer to type this alert while I am
waiting for a bill to come up.

It looks like we may well end up with a good, supportable, mental
health bill. But the Devil is in the details and we will be looking
at the final wording to see if it satisfies our concerns and watching
the bill to see that bad wording isn't slipped in.

I will be at the General Assembly again on Tuesday (tomorrow) the
Senate is going to hear the library ban bills, amongst other anti-gun

I will advise the outcome of those bills.


I am collecting interesting stories of things that happened on Lobby
Day. Either interaction with the antis or perhaps with Delegates and
Senators. If you have such a story, email it to me.

I have not seen the news, but we should have been all over it. I was
interviewed by the AP, WRVA (radio station in Richmond) and TV stations.

Thanks to leadership and many of our EMs for their help making Lobby
Day a success!

VCDL - good turnout, good work - I'm proud of you guys!

Winchester 73
January 22, 2008, 02:57 PM
Great work,Phil Van Cleave and the VCDL.
Makes me feel proud to be an American.

January 22, 2008, 05:32 PM
We didn't make it in time for the HB129 hearing, but we got to run around and lobby State Senators. VCDL had it well organized! Makes me proud to be a member.
Basically, here's what happened:
We met, and got together with Group Leaders (groups were between 5-7 people) and we each got a section of Senators and Delegates. Our sections overlapped to ensure that each Senator and Delegate saw lots of us!

The Group Leaders asked the Senators and Delegates to consider VCDL's legislative analysis on bills and showed what we supported, didn't support, and were neutral on. Then, the rest of us would chime in with reasons, etc.

The 5 Senators we hit were all open to hearing our ideas and 4 of them had CHP permits. In fact, one asked if we had seen her bill. Of course it was in the packet, she was open to the change and stated that she would run it by her Delegate compatriot.

All in all, the Senators or their Legislative assistants knew who we were and that they had heard from HUNDREDS of us on the issues. Well, next time folks let's make it in the THOUSANDS and make the computers crash!

Good job!

Tin Gizel
January 23, 2008, 03:46 PM
My first time doing something like this and will definately do it again in the future.

If you enjoyed reading about "Virginians, Stand up and pay attention" here in archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join today for the full version!