.380acp in a 9x18 makarov


PDA






ar154life
January 9, 2008, 11:33 PM
does it work? I have a friend who does it and it is reliable and no KBs.
will there be any problems for the gun?

If you enjoyed reading about ".380acp in a 9x18 makarov" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Green Lantern
January 9, 2008, 11:42 PM
Hmmm....I'm pretty sure I've seen .380 'conversion' barrels for Makarovs, and you just use the same magazine. Not SURE though.

But sure enough to say that I wouldn't recommend shooting .380 in a 9mmMak gun without further research.

I read an article not too long ago that mentioned a problem with the popularity of Maks was the lack of ammo, at least until recently. Since .380 hasn't really been scarce that I know of...that should maybe tell us something....! :uhoh:

The Lone Haranguer
January 9, 2008, 11:46 PM
I don't have a Makarov, but have read that this can be done. I would still not advise it. The .380 case is shorter than the Mak (9x17mm vs. 9x18mm), but the extractor can hold the cartridge firmly enough against the breechface to let the firing pin strike a good blow ... but maybe not. Also, the .380 bullet diameter is smaller (.355" vs. .361" or .363", something like that) and would likely be very inaccurate, rattling down the bore like a musket ball. I think in general it is a poor idea to shoot the wrong ammunition in any firearm.

MAKster
January 9, 2008, 11:49 PM
I believe the 9x18 bullet is a larger diameter than the 380acp. The 9x18 is actually 9.22mm.

flag2442
January 9, 2008, 11:52 PM
Conversion barrels were available at makarov.com I do not know if they still are. I would not be shooting .380 out of a 9x18. I have a factory russian makarov in .380 and was told I just needed to swap barrels to shoot 9x18 and vise versa which required some type of a tool to get the barrels in and out because they are pressed in I beleive.

flag2442

nwilliams
January 10, 2008, 12:00 AM
Different round, I would stick to what the barrel is chambered for....Even if its not seriously dangerous, I can't imagine its good for the gun to do that.

9x17 (.380 aka: 9mm Kurz)
9x18 Makarov
9x19 Parabellum (9mm Luger)

Although people still debate whether or not you should interchange 7.62x51 with .308 Win or the age old debate of 5.56 vs .223. However I think with the 9x17 Kurz and the 9x18 Makarov they are considered two different rounds completely, so there's probably less room for debate. Then again I've been wrong before, I'm interested to hear what others have to say about this.

North Bender
January 10, 2008, 12:02 AM
Fire .380 through a 9x18 barrel? Seriously?

Ok, I'll bite and take it serious.

http://www.saami.org/Unsafe_Combinations.cfm

UNSAFE ARMS AND AMMUNITION COMBINATIONS
TECHNICAL DATA SHEET
UNSAFE ARMS AND AMMUNITION COMBINATIONS

CENTERFIRE PISTOL & REVOLVER

In Firearms Chambered For
9x18 Makarov

Do Not Use These Cartridges
9mm Luger, 38 Automatic, 38 Super Automatic, 380 Automatic

Black Adder LXX
January 10, 2008, 12:04 AM
Don't do it!!! Check out Makarov.com.

nwilliams
January 10, 2008, 12:05 AM
dupe

nalioth
January 10, 2008, 12:20 AM
Yes, there are .380 barrels made for the Makarov. They used to be everywhere, and I can't think there are enough folks buying these that they were all bought up.

Please don't shoot .380 in your 9x18 barrel.

ar154life
January 10, 2008, 01:32 AM
well, ill tell him.
this is what he buys for the mak because it has worked for him.

i can say accuracy is not there. When i aim for the bullseye, it wanders off target.

Trebor
January 10, 2008, 02:53 AM
It works, but it's NOT safe.

The .380 won't headspace correctly in a 9x18 chamber. That can cause dangerous problems. Just because it hasn't happened yet, doesn't mean it won't ever happen.

Stick to the rounds the gun was designed to shoot. Anything else is foolish and dangerous.

legion3
January 10, 2008, 06:05 AM
Good luck to him, when he finally has a problem you'll let us know. :rolleyes:

PS, tell him a 10mm will shoot just fine in a 40 Cal ;)

CajunBass
January 10, 2008, 08:27 AM
I had a gun shop clerk tell me it was safe one time. I don't buy ammo there anymore.

Nietzsche
January 10, 2008, 08:41 AM
He's lucky. He's just shooting a .380 round, which is less powerful than a 9x18mm. I routinely get lied to by gun vendors telling me that the Makarov was designed to use 9mm Nato...because it has 9mm written on the side of the gun! They think that lying to me and suggesting the gun is in a more popular caliber is going to influence me to buy it more quickly. Usually it provokes the opposite response. One of these days though, they are going to convince somebody to go home and shoot 9mm Parabellum. If the person manages to get it to load in his barrel without it getting stuck in the magazine, or the mag well, and if he manages to then shoot it, he'd be shooting a round rated more powerful than the gun is intended to shoot...never a good idea.

The only way I'd use .380 in a 9x18 barrel would be if it was the only ammo available and I was facing a lethal threat right then. Why risk blowing your hand off, or damaging your gun, when 9x18mm is still cheaper than .380? (Although that may change in the future)

FieroCDSP
January 10, 2008, 11:01 AM
There are drop-in barrels for PA-63's here (http://www.e-gunparts.com/DisplayAd.asp?chrProductSKU=222480&chrSuperSKU=&MC=YJ)

There might be ones for other Makarov chambered guns. I certainly wouldn't shoot a 380 in a 9x18, but to each their own.

fletcher
January 10, 2008, 11:59 AM
As others have said, it will not work unless you put a .380 barrel in.

Although, my $0.02 is - Why would anyone switch a Mak to .380 unless it's to consolidate calibers? It's horrible to fire that American ammunition through that poor little communist gun :D 9x18 is real cheap and easy to find online.

Maverick223
May 3, 2009, 06:06 PM
I unknowingly fired 9x18mm (was a friends ammo, told to be .380=should have checked the head stamp) in my Bersa Thunder .380, it actually did pretty well from an accuracy standpoint, but would not extract properly. The gun was new (never fired) so I thought the gun was the issue, and only after further inspection did I discover that it was the ammo. Went through 25rnds first. Hindsight, it probably broke the gun in pretty well...just glad that it didn't break it apart. :eek: That little Bersa has performed pretty well though, no complaints, even after firing the wrong ammo, but I don't think I will try firing a 9x19mm (or any more mak ammo). :D

rcmodel
May 3, 2009, 06:27 PM
Well, thats special.
Seeing as how a MAK round measures .392" at the rim, and a .380 ACP only measures .374".

Your Bersa must have a seriously out of spec chamber!

rc

Maverick223
May 3, 2009, 06:42 PM
Your Bersa must have a seriously out of spec chamber!
Didn't realize it was that big of a difference, will have to get a hold of it (sold it about a year ago to my uncle) and check it with some calipers. I thought it was a couple thousandths not hundredths, that could be bad.

I did however realize that the 9x18mm Mak. is a full millimeter longer case...I don't know how it chambered it... :confused: Maybe the recoil spring jammed it into the chamber enough to fire...I don't rightly know. It did have good spring pressure but chambering a completely different rnd is a bit extreme.

Just remembered something else it did eject, but would not feed from the mag properly.

lvcat2004
May 3, 2009, 07:42 PM
Although people still debate whether or not you should interchange 7.62x51 with .308 Win or the age old debate of 5.56 vs .223.

there is no debate about 7.62x51 and 308 win. They are identical.

BBstacker
May 3, 2009, 08:21 PM
I have two makarovs both were chambered for 9X18. I changed one to .380. You used the same mag. as for the 9X18. I have a press to change out barrels on makarovs. There is no problem with head space.

crushbup
May 3, 2009, 09:22 PM
there is no debate about 7.62x51 and 308 win. They are identical.

That is incorrect. They headspace differently, which can cause .308 in a 7.62 chamber to have problems. Some 7.62 guns are fine with it, some aren't. The point is, they're not the same.

Capt Marvel
May 3, 2009, 10:01 PM
As a point of information (this is not exact) 1mm=40/1000ths of an inch. So 9 x 18 Makarov case is approximately .720 long. The case length on the .380 ACP is .900 in length. Meaning you can not chamber a .380 ACP in a 9 x 18 and have the breach lock up. But because the difference is only about 180/1000th of an inch, if the chamber is sloppy or the breach manages lock up the weapon may fire.... not good. Ruptiured case, possible broken parts or injury. If you want to shot .380 get a "conversion kit" for .380.

Close but no cigar!

Maverick223
May 3, 2009, 11:01 PM
So 9 x 18 Makarov case is approximately .720 long. The case length on the .380 ACP is .900 in length
Think you have that a bit wrong...both have an OAL of 0.984in. and the .380 case length is 0.680 vs a 9x18mm case length of 0.713.
because the difference is only about 180/1000th of an inch
Ummm, that is pretty big like 3/32 of an inch big...but is small if your trying to level a barn...I guess. :neener:

EDIT: And .380 will most certainly lock up as all of the dimensions of 9x18mm Mak. are the same or larger. :confused:

BBstacker
May 4, 2009, 12:11 AM
You have to change the barrel from a 9X18 to a .380 barrel. You need a barrel press to do it. the head space is on the mouth of the case in the barrel. Also the .308 is loaded to a higher presure than 7.62. the .223 and the 5.56 are opposet.

harmon rabb
May 4, 2009, 09:35 AM
why would you want to do that? you can't buy 380 anywhere, but you can get all the 9x18 you want right now. :confused:

6x6pinz
May 4, 2009, 11:34 PM
I bought a gun on Gunbroker and the seller was convinced that the 9X18 was equal to 380. He was very upset when confronted with this. I will never buy from this supposed gun dealer again. They are two different rounds just similar in size.

BBstacker
May 5, 2009, 09:46 AM
Harmon Rabb I bought this makarov because it was well used. I changed not only the barrel but some other parts. I already have barrels in .380 and 9X18 plus hammers, sears,and host of parts for makarovs. I now have two hand guns in .380 and two in 9X18 plus 100rds or rounds of each.

krs
May 5, 2009, 11:59 AM
I have a barrel to enable firing the hot little NAA .32 out of one (or more) of my Makarovs, and I've passed several chances to buy a barrel to fire .380 in one of the guns, but there's no way in anywhere that I'd fire a .380 cartridge in any of my pistols which are chambered for 9x18mm MAK. It would be mighty stupid to do that.

Also, I do not believe the person who claimed to have fired 9x18mm MAK ammunition in his .380 Bersa or in any .380 pistol. The cartridge will simply NOT FIT.

todd_g
May 5, 2009, 12:19 PM
I have a Bersa .380 Thunder that I purchased a few years ago for $200.00 out the door, excellent shooter, very accurate, recoil is very easy to manage . I also own 2 Hungarian FEG-PA63's ( Walther PPK look a likes ) that are chambered in 9mm makarov, both pistols will also shoot the .380 through them without issues, it does destroy the .380 brass though. Recoil with the 9x18 is a little rough, but I think it is more of the pistol design. I have never shot a Makarov pistol, but held them, they seem a bit more comfortable than the Hungarian variant that I have. I think your lady friend would do better with the Bersa.

krs
May 5, 2009, 12:38 PM
Todd,
Your PA63 is an alloy framed version of a Makarov. It's lighter hence the recoil feels harsher. Lots of owners of PA63's have voiced that as their only complaint.

todd_g
May 5, 2009, 12:54 PM
KRS, I read your earlier thread, let me re-phrase a bit of my last post, I have shot several boxed of 9x17 through my FEG-PA63 9x18, without issue, but I do not recommend anyone try this at home. :)

krs
May 5, 2009, 01:47 PM
I have shot several boxed of 9x17 through my FEG-PA63 9x18, without issue, but I do not recommend anyone try this at home.

Don't do that, Todd. The bullet in a .380 (you just called it 9x17mm) is .009" too little for the 9x18 Makarov bore. If you shoot any kind of jacketed bullet it'll screw up the weird polygamous (Mormon rifling?) rifling if that's what you've got and make a smoothbore out of a nice shooting conventionally rifled barrel. Not to mention blowing out every .380 case that may become quite valuable to reloaders if the ammo shortages don't let up.

It's just not acceptable, Todd, you've been bad. Go to your room now.














:)

BBstacker
May 5, 2009, 01:55 PM
Todd g I have to agree with Krs shooting 9X17 (.380) out of a 9X18 mak. The bullet dia. of a 9X17 (.380) is .355 and case lenght is .675. The bullet dia. of a 9X18 mak is .365 and case length is .708.

doubs43
May 5, 2009, 02:12 PM
The .380 case is 17mm in length while the 9x18 case is 18mm in length. The .380 is thus headspacing on the extractor and nothing else. Stress on the extractor will be much greater than normal. Ignition of the primer will be erratic and blowback of gases should be significant as the .380 case is unlikely to expand enough to fill the 9x18 chamber. Blow-by will also be heavy as the bullet fails to fill the bore and grooves. Velocity will be very low and accuracy horrible. The bullet will no doubt tumble, unstabilized.

That's the bad news.

There is absolutely NO good news.

This rather reminds me of advertising years ago when the first surplus Astra 400 pistols made it to these shores. Some claimed that the pistol would SAFELY fire 6 different cartridges: 9mm Largo, .38ACP, 9mm Luger, .38 Super, 9mm Bergmann-Bayer and 9mm Browning Long. The NRA was quick to point out that the pistol would indeed fire all six BUT only the first two were correct and safe in the pistol. The .38 Super, in particular, was far more powerful than the simple blowback pistol was designed to handle and thus very dangerous in the 400. The short 9mm Luger cartridge headspaced on the extractor and generally gave poor results even though the bullet diameter was correct.

The problem with bad information is that it always seems to have a life of it's own and is repeated many years later as fact. Fifty years afterward, the myth of the six cartridge Astra 400 still rears it's ugly head occasionally.

BBstacker
May 5, 2009, 04:44 PM
doubs43 The astra 400 was made to fire the 9MMX23 LARGO. But if you fire a 9X18 in it does not headspace on the extractor. It is held by it because it can not headspace on the mouth of the case. The largos case is 5mm longer.

rcmodel
May 5, 2009, 04:48 PM
Lets just say it excess headspaces on or ahead of the extractor then!

rc

doubs43
May 5, 2009, 08:24 PM
doubs43 The astra 400 was made to fire the 9MMX23 LARGO. But if you fire a 9X18 in it does not headspace on the extractor. It is held by it because it can not headspace on the mouth of the case. The largos case is 5mm longer.

The 400 was made to fire the 9mm Large AND the .38ACP interchangeably. That's why the pistols are marked 9mm/.38. It was not designed to fire any other cartridges.

IF you try to fire a 9x18 in it, the cartridge shouldn't chamber at all. If you do manage to get it to chamber and fire, you've likely got a problem as the .364" bullet trying to go down the .355" barrel may cause greatly excessive pressures. I wouldn't attempt it myself.

The 9x18 was not one of the cartridges listed by me for the 400 as usable but the 9x19 (Luger) cartridge was. You are correct that the 9x19 will not headspace on the case mouth and is held in place by the extractor. That is exactly what I meant by "headspaces on the extractor". That is also why ignition becomes erratic as the lack of contact anywhere except the rim and extractor prevents a consistent positioning of the cartridge and resistance to the firing pin when it contacts the primer. But, if you prefer, rc uses "excess headspace" to describe the same thing. The point is, don't do it!

BBstacker
May 5, 2009, 10:30 PM
doubs43 All this talk about the .380 and 9MM mak I said 9X18 instead of 9X19. I stand corrected.

51Cards
May 7, 2009, 02:05 AM
A guy at our range puts .380 through a Makarov regularly. They all keyhole, and the cases are scary.

He handloads, too --- so some day ...

Jbabbler
May 8, 2009, 02:33 PM
Quote:
Although people still debate whether or not you should interchange 7.62x51 with .308 Win or the age old debate of 5.56 vs .223.
there is no debate about 7.62x51 and 308 win. They are identical.

YES, there is a debate and NO, the two are definately NOT identical.
http://www.thegunzone.com/30cal.html

Cactus Jack Arizona
May 9, 2009, 12:08 AM
I'll just say that nothing goes into my 9X18 but 9X18. I'm not one for fooling around with unnecessary risks, especially when you're fooling around with something that could very easily ruin your entire day. :rolleyes:

RockyMtnTactical
May 9, 2009, 03:46 AM
Dont do it!

Maverick223
May 10, 2009, 02:02 AM
I do not believe the person who claimed to have fired 9x18mm MAK ammunition in his .380 Bersa
Well...I did, don't know how I did, but it chambered (wouldn't cycle though) and fired and came out the barrel, and maintained respectable accuracy. Although in hindsight it could have been reloaded 380 in 9x18 cases (trimmed and formed), I don't know, as it was not my ammunition (and I should have checked the headstamp). All I know is that the ammo said 9x18 and worked to an extent. Wish I had a case, I would measure it. I will have to find out who has the gun (the person I sold it to, my Uncle, recently passed away) and check to see if a 9x18 will fit, and if so warn them about the chamber being out of spec.

lvcat2004
May 10, 2009, 02:52 AM
Quote:
Quote:

Quote:
Although people still debate whether or not you should interchange 7.62x51 with .308 Win or the age old debate of 5.56 vs .223.

there is no debate about 7.62x51 and 308 win. They are identical.

YES, there is a debate and NO, the two are definately NOT identical.
http://www.thegunzone.com/30cal.html



Mental masturbators and internet trolls want to claim that they are different and quote the EXACT SAME few outdated sources regarding headspace, brass thickness yada yada yada. Internet rubbish.

The fact is that manufacturers DON't produced 308 and 7.62x51mm dies. There is only one. Some reloading manuals list 308 loads using military 7.62x51mm brass, and list data interchageably. Why?? Because they are interchageable...functionally identical....duh.

Would you trust SPEER reloading manual or these internet trolls??

Jbabbler
May 10, 2009, 04:40 PM
Mental masturbators and internet trolls want to claim that they are different and quote the EXACT SAME few outdated sources regarding headspace, brass thickness yada yada yada. Internet rubbish. The fact is that manufacturers DON't produced 308 and 7.62x51mm dies. There is only one. Some reloading manuals list 308 loads using military 7.62x51mm brass, and list data interchageably. Why?? Because they are interchageable...functionally identical....duh. Would you trust SPEER reloading manual or these internet trolls?

Wow, I guess you're right there is no debate. If anyone has a different opinion you attack them with petty name-calling and verbal abuse. That's definately not a "debate". I guess since you used clever terms like "mental masturbation" that you are 100% correct.

You see, in a debate both sides think that they are right. The fact that you believe your opinion to be true does not neccessarily make it so. While I agree that the two rounds CAN be loaded to be 100% interchangable the classic rounds in their original configurations are not identical. No amount of insulting or name calling will change that fact. The pressure levels on a 7.62x51 are (or were) originally much lower than the Winchester .308.

So you see, a debate does still exist...

PT1911
May 10, 2009, 05:00 PM
that was actually the purpose for the 9x18 (supposedly) soviet soldiers could kill german soldiers and loot their 380 ammo for their 9x18's (it will function... though not well). If, however, a soviet soldier was killed, his 9x18 ammunition would be useless in the german's 380... seems he could take the gun as well, but I didnt tell the story.. only conveyed it...

doubs43
May 10, 2009, 06:17 PM
that was actually the purpose for the 9x18 (supposedly) soviet soldiers could kill german soldiers and loot their 380 ammo for their 9x18's (it will function... though not well). If, however, a soviet soldier was killed, his 9x18 ammunition would be useless in the german's 380... seems he could take the gun as well, but I didnt tell the story.. only conveyed it...

Considering that WW2 ended some years before the Makarov 9x18mm was adopted as a standard Soviet sidearm, it's difficult to buy that story in any respect. During WW2, most German sidearms were chambered in either 9mm Luger or 7.65mm (.32ACP) while the standard Soviet sidearms were in 7.62x25mm (semi-auto Tokarev) or 7.62mm Nagant revolver.

It would be interesting to know how stories like that get started. :)

BBstacker
May 11, 2009, 10:15 AM
Manufactures do produce dies for the 5.56X45 and 7.62X51. They are called small bace dies. They are for semi autos like AR 15s,FALs,ects.The PSI on the .308 Win is higher than 7.62 and the PSI is higher on the 5.56 than .223. The free bore on a M 16 is longer than a .223 bolt action rifle.

Trebor
May 11, 2009, 11:03 AM
Your PA63 is an alloy framed version of a Makarov. It's lighter hence the recoil feels harsher. Lots of owners of PA63's have voiced that as their only complaint

The PA-63 is alloy framed, but it is *NOT* "a version of the Makarov."

The PA-63 design and the Makarov design are completey different. The only thing that is the same is the chambering. They both fire the 9x18mm cartridge, commonlly called "9mm Makarov."

But, just because the PA-63 fires the 9mm Makarov round doesn't make it a "Makarov" any more then a Glock 19 is a "Luger" because the Glock 19 fires the 9mm Luger round.

krs
May 11, 2009, 12:17 PM
lvcat2004 : " The fact is that manufacturers DON't produced 308 and 7.62x51mm dies. There is only one. Some reloading manuals list 308 loads using military 7.62x51mm brass, and list data interchageably. Why?? Because they are interchageable...functionally identical....duh.

Would you trust SPEER reloading manual or these internet trolls??"



Gee, that's strange..my new Speer #14 insists that I reduce any charges developed in commercial .308 Win. cases by 3% if I were to encounter military surplus 7.62x51 cases. They say that military cases are usually of a smaller capacity.

Now since the #14 is a recent issue of Speers reloading manual you can go to a store and look it up yourself. To me that's some different than the internet troll claims by lvcat2004, who even asked "Would you trust SPEER reloading manual or these internet trolls??"

Well sir, I looked at my Speer's reloading manual and it says something different than what you say so my answer to you is that yes, I'll trust the Speer's manual, thank you, and suggest that you read yours again.

Maverick223
May 11, 2009, 12:26 PM
This thread is going nowhere...the road is starting to go downhill.

If you enjoyed reading about ".380acp in a 9x18 makarov" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!