[Dollar An Hour]

Not having handled any pump shotguns other than Dad's Wingmaster when I was a kid, I wasn't sure what I was looking for in a pump for HD.

On paper, the Mossberg 500 looks like a helluva bargain. Surfing the web, I couldn't find any negatives about it other than the plastic trigger guard and safety.

So I head to a gun store after work to check out the 500 (no 590A1 in stock).

What I liked about the Mossberg:

-The location of the slide release & safety

But what surprised me was that the 870 Express HD felt better in my hands.

What I liked about the Remington:

-The heft of the steel receiver
-The shape/size of the fore end piece
-The action seemed smoother than the Mossy on the example I handled
-The gun felt tighter and a bit less cheap

What about a 590A1? I can't find them on the Mossberg website, but they replace the plastic parts with metal, and add some heft with a heavier barrel, right? I'm wondering if this would be the best compromise?

And how much corner cutting is done on a $299 Rem 870 Express HD shown below?

http://www.remington.com/images/products/firearms/shotgun/lgsil_870expsyn7.jpg

Are the 870 TAC models like the one below still based on an Express? Seems that stock design would offer a better hold & control of the weapon.

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b7cf34b3127cceb0ed47bae46900000026100AbMWLFy4cN2Pg

Let me know what you guys think - do I put the most importance on location of controls I like on the Mossy, or just adjust to the Remington that felt like a better quality gun to me?

[Eightball]

From my experience with the mechanisms of both shotguns, I'd say the Remington is slightly better. Here's why: There was a time when I borrowed a buddy's 500, one of those 18.5" models. When there were two rounds and one un-ejected husk, I ejected the one, fired the second round, cycled to the third, pulled the trigger, and *click*. Working the action revealed that the round was NOT in the chamber, but sat unfired at my feet, because the recoil from the previous round jiggled it out of the mag tube. For all the people that might cry "get the gun checked, etc etc etc"--I wouldn't want that to happen for a shotgun my life depended on, no matter what the circumstance. Plus, I've known guys in hunting situations up in the nether regions of New England, where they were on the water, and due to spray, ice built up on the outside of the firearms. When the guys with 870s saw birds, their shotguns worked, they got their bag limit; the guys with the 500s shotguns were gunked up. Kinda an extreme situation, but it says something.

"The military uses it" nonwithstanding, the military also goes with the cheapest bidder. I know which one I'd choose--the 870 withOUT the pistol-grip; it screws me up with the dang things when throwing it to my shoulder, etc. I think the Remington safety locations are odd, but workable. YMMV.

[Regolith]

Personally I'd go with the Remington 870 Express 18". Nothing wrong with the Mossberg 590, but I like the feel of the 870 better.

I don't like the pistol grip on the TAC model. It seems like it would get in the way. Just my opinion.

As for the corner cutting: Essentially, with the Express models, Remington skips a lot of the finishing steps, such as polishing internals, better overall finish, etc. However it does not degrade the utility of the gun at all. The action is a little less smooth than the Police and Wingmaster models (though it usually smooths out with use), and there may be some tool marks left over. Other than that, its the same as the higher grade models.

I bought an Express model back in July and have had absolutely no problems with it.

[Rshooter]

I have never talked to anyone who has broken a 500's trigger group. That said the 870 express and 870 tatical's trigger group is "plastic" too. The 870's receiver is steel vs the mossberg's but the receiver does not take the real pressure, the chamber takes the brunt of it.

I personally would buy an older wingmaster police 870 in 2 3/4. These were made to last and a lot of them will outlast the newer guns sold today. My last gun purchase was a wingmast police turn-in. I have a new 870 police parkerized in 3 inch my wife bought for me about ten years ago but I like my wingmaster better. Somebody may think I work for the guy (no) but you can get a police turn in right now on gunbroker for $264.00, beats $400 or $500+ for a 590A1 or a 870 tatical.

Good luck now that I have made it worse.:p

[Big Boomer]

I had the same choice, just picked up a 590A1, for some reason the action on it above the other 500's seemed the same as the 870's to me.

Reason's I chose what I did. Although, I really liked the 870's they way they looked and felt, I could not get over the controls. There was NO way I could work the slide release in a quick an efficient manner.

The safety on the 870 I liked better, just that I am used to it on my other shotties that way and my 10/22's. On the 590 I can never remember is up on safety or is down??? Problem solved, I just leave it off safety open chamber.

The 590 release much nicer, don't have to remove my finger anywhere odd. 590A1 is a bit heavier but who cares, it's for HD not hiking around, and should be good for recoil reduction. The 590A1 has a steel trigger guard and steel safety, in addition to a much thicker barrel.

Oh and my 590A1 was $460

I hate the feeling of the pistol grip on either, on the 590 it's very hard to hit the slide release with the grip there, it also just doesn't point right with it.

I, for some sick reason, like the bayonet lug on the 590, also more capacity can never hurt!

I do like the steel receiver on the 870 better but haven't heard any issues yet with the mossberg design.

As far as the lowest bidder stuff, the highest priced stuff is not always the best either. But then that's why they spend so little on those Barretts, EOTech sights, on those crappy M-16's/AR's/MP5's those are just junk! why would anyone want to own those! The military has such a small budget it's surprising we can even hold our own on our own soil! :rolleyes:

Not everything "military" is the best I agree. But I don't see them running around with HiPoints either ;) So the dig about being crappy military stuff given to the lowest bidder needs to stop, unless there is something else that I am missing here.

You can always "add" stuff to the 870's oh ya, plenty of accessories to fill a dump truck out there. But the bone stock 590A1 is just about all you need. I added a sidesaddle, and found that I really didn't need it. The only thing that I would like to add is one of those speedfeed? stocks that holds like 4 rounds or so, Possibly an adjustable one, the stock seemed a little bit long for me, but that was just the initial impression so far.

For a HD/Combat shottie I like the 590A1, I like the ghostrings sights, for HD you point and shoot anyhow but with the ghosts you get the ability to really get the advantage of the slugs if you need to pinpoint at longer ranges.

That being said, I am now looking at a Saiga 12 :evil: for the next possible purchase!

[Dave McCracken]

Get the one that feels best.

While I'm a diehard 870 fan, there's no flies on Mossbergs....

[MAX100]

I like the 870 shotgun design best.


GC

[MCgunner]

Want smooth? Find an Ithaca.

[the naked prophet]

Check pawn shops. You can probably find both for a decent price, and buy an 18 inch barrel for whichever you choose.

[DevilDog0402]

I like the Mossy.

[nezumi]

Like Dave said, fire both, take whichever one fits. Honestly, caliber is more of a concern than model. I was leaning heavily towards Mossberg, but when I saw an 870 for the right price and it was comfortable for the boss (my wife), that's what we got. It's all about what is comfortable enough that you'll use it.

If you have not fired a shotgun in a while, it's worth the money to do that. Get a professional to size you up if appropriate. $20 in range fees is worth it to avoid $400 for a gun you don't like to shoot.

[Dollar An Hour]

Wow, the 870/590A1 poll is about even... And NOBODY seems to care for the 870 with the TAC stock, why is that? Seems like it'd give a more solid hold of the weapon than a standard stock...

As far as preferring the Mossberg safety, if I go with the 870 can't I just leave the safety off and rack one into the chamber if needed, or is this not a good idea?

Are 590A1's hard to find? All the shops I've called have 590's, but they aren't the A1.

[Shadowangel]

My vote is with the 870..feels better in my hands.

[Big Boomer]

I got the last one in Austin :p

I have heard that the 590A1's are quite scarce right now.

The Tac stock, with the pistol grip does NOT feel right for a shotgun. Pistol grips only are one thing but with butt stock NO. Also as someone mentioned earlier swinging it over your shoulder feels awkward as well.

Going back to the half dozen of one and 6 of the other, they both will perform the same. It's a 12 Gauge for christ's sake!

[Snarlingiron]

Either is fine. I am a big fan of the 870 (I have 3, the HD model you show above, a 28" barrel rem-choke model for hunting, and an old 20ga wingmaster). However, I have shot the Mossberg, and have a friend that prefers it. All I can say about the HD 870, is that I have taken a shotgun course with it, and fired about 600-700 rounds through it, and it just keeps on going, kind of like the rabbit. I did put a Knoxx Spec Ops stock on it, and it has a pistol grip. It took a little getting used to, but now I love it.

[5knives]

FWIW,

Mossberg 500 passed the U.S Military Acceptance tests, 3000 rounds.

NOTHING else did, Not Remington, Not Benelli, not Beretta not ... etc.

Personally I love my ithacas, but my HD shotgun is a Mossberg.

For defense reliability comes first, which is also why I like Kalasnikov varients, and Makarov pistols.

JMHO, YMMV

Regards,
:)

[SpookyPistolero]

I've got that same 870 HD, but I just picked up a new mossy and it's my new love. Much lighter, carries and handles a lot better.

[Dollar An Hour]

The poll is still really close...

I think I'll just buy what I can get the best deal on, and considering a Sportsmans Warehouse gift card & gift certificate I've got, the $299 870 Express they carry is looking pretty good. :)

[shadowalker]

I went with the Mossberg 590, higher initial capacity, affordable, safety in the middle of the receiver means it works equally well for lefties and righties.

[rantingredneck]

Buy both. You won't be happy till you do. I have 3 870's and 2 Mossbergs (500 and 835). I like my 500 because of how light it is for deep woods hiking/hunting. I like my 20" 870 IC rifle sighted for both slug hunting and general HD work (patterns buckshot like nobody's business to 25 yds, deadly with Brenneke's to 100). I like my 18" 870 because of how handy it is and quick handling at the range (it still has not taken the place of the 20" for the primary HD weapon though, not enough rounds through it yet). My 28" 870 (also have 28" barrels for the other two) is my bird getter. My Mossy 835 is the shotgun I've owned the longest (aside from my Rem 31) and the one I've put the most rounds through (3-4 thousand or so) and is truly an extension of me at this point. The others are playing catch up. :D

Bottom line, go with the one that feels best in your hands and then throw lots of lead with it.

[shoup dawg]

I had never owned any guns and I have never fired any long arms in my life. And I consider myself a fairly thorough researcher as well as a cheap guy. So after much careful research, countless hours, and lots of trips to my local sporting goods store to check out the Mossberg, I had settled on the 500 for the exact reasons you did.

Now what happened to me was the day I went to purchase the Mossberg, they were out. I happened to check out the HD you have listed above and just like you, I liked it's heft, "solidity", and it's more satisfying slide action. The 500 felt more "rickety" as you can probably tell.

I am taking it out this Sunday for an all day HD course. I added a Remington limbsaver butt stock but that's it.

Now I read somehwere that while Mossberg was chosen by the military, it was because Remington chose not to enter the competition. They were the market leader at the time and entering that game was only a liability for them...if they ended up not winning it would mar their standing. By not entering, it didn't really hurt because they were already market leader.

That being said, I'm still probably going to get a 500 in the future.

[Dollar An Hour]

Now I read somehwere that while Mossberg was chosen by the military, it was because Remington chose not to enter the competition. They were the market leader at the time and entering that game was only a liability for them...if they ended up not winning it would mar their standing. By not entering, it didn't really hurt because they were already market leader.

I read the same thing, so it's not like Mossberg 'beat' Remington in the trials.

When I think about how I'll have the shotty stored and how it would be used if necessary, the safety location seems to be less of an issue than I first thought. If the plan is to store it with a loaded tube and rack one into the chamber if needed, the safety never comes into play, does it?

Do folks make too much out of safety location? :confused:

[the naked prophet]

I honestly have never engaged the safety on my Mossberg. I always keep it hammer down on an empty chamber, with a full mag (so I can just pump it to get it ready, don't even have to hold down the slide release for the initial pump).

[TwitchALot]

Another opinion (http://members.tripod.com/~jth8260/870.html).

[btg3]

Not having handled any pump shotguns other than Dad's Wingmaster when I was a kid, I wasn't sure what I was looking for in a pump for HD.
I also grew up with Remington shotguns and that's what still shoulders the best. My choice is the HD that you pictured in 20ga.

[mrshish]

They are booth good guns. I have have friends with the 500's and 590's. I myself choose the 870. It the most popular shotgun ever made for a reason. It runs 100% of the time. I have never had it jam, misfire, or fail to function - ever. It's been through frozen mud and slush duck hunting in Colorado and Texas heat bore hunting. I've fired 1000's of rounds and never cleaned it. New, used, abused it just keeps going. It's cheap and has had more accessories made for it than all others combined.

[Firepower!]

590A1 no comparison.

[Rob96]

5. Military shotguns.

The Mossberg 500/590 Military was the military issue shotgun up until very recently, having been displaced by the Benelli M4 Super 90 shotgun. The M4 Super 90 is a convertible pump/semi-auto shotgun with collapsable stock. While the Mossberg shotguns passed the 3,000 round buckshot test to become the standard military shotgun, they are no longer the primary issue shotgun.



As stated in other places, the Benelli is only in the Marine Corps, and even that is limited to MP units as I have heard. For front line it is still the 500/590.

[HisDivineShadow]

If you like the 870 more, then get it. Oh and skip the pistolgrip. Here's a really lovely photo of an 870:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v67/eclipse3346/remmy.jpg

[jad0110]

The poll says it all. I would pick the one that feels better overall. You say you prefer the control layout of the mossie, but like the "feel" of the 870. Tough decision, I guess you have to prioritize what features you like better.

Either that, if you are a leftie I'd take a close look at the Browning BPS. It ejects shells straight down instead of in front of you face, and it has a tang safety like the Mossberg. I can't remember where the slide release is - maybe someone else can tell us.

I prefer the 590A myself, just picked one up last week. I agree that the 870 is a fine shotgun, and feels a bit tighter than my Mossie, but I really do prefer the control layout on my 590. I do like the tang safety a bit better, but the real deal breaker for my on the 870 was the location of the slide release. It is so much easier for me to use the release on the 590. But that's just me.

BTW, I don't like pistol grip shotguns either. They just don't feel right to me, even though I like my Yugo AK with it's pistol grip. If I were getting a shottie with a pistol grip, I would certainly prefer the cross bolt safety of the 870.

[PRCalDude]

My instructor has had a lot of problems getting service from Mossberg. He loves the 870. I own one and wouldn't trade it for any other pump-action.

BTW, don't spend a lot of money on bells and whistles for whatever gun you get. Just get a youth stock, a sidesaddle, and a sling, and a powerful handheld flashlight and you're set. That's all you need.

[Rshooter]

Well Dollar An Hour - are you gonna keep us in suspense? What did you decide? a new Remington or a new Mossberg? :what:

[Dollar An Hour]

What did you decide? a new Remington or a new Mossberg?

I can get an 870 really cheap thanks to some holiday gift cards I received - so I plan to pick up the 870 pictured on page 1. I like the heft of the 870 and it feels right. Also the reach to the fore end is shorter on the 870 which feels more comfortable. :)

[VTKFJoe]

For what it's worth, my neighbor was in the Air Force flew helicopters in the 80's and 90's and said he was issued an short 870.

Also - "Beginning it's life as a versatile hunting shotgun, available in many different configurations and gauges, in early 1970s Remington 870 was adopted by US Military - in 1966 US Marine Corps purchased some thousands of the Remington 870 Mk.1 shoguns (along with Mossberg 590 and Winchester 1200)."

Someone in this thread stated that the 870 had never been issued - I'm too lazy to find the actual quote but...

[VTKFJoe]

For what it's worth, my neighbor was in the Air Force flew helicopters in the 80's and 90's and said he was issued an short 870.

Also - from http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/sh17-e.htm "Beginning it's life as a versatile hunting shotgun, available in many different configurations and gauges, in early 1970s Remington 870 was adopted by US Military - in 1966 US Marine Corps purchased some thousands of the Remington 870 Mk.1 shoguns (along with Mossberg 590 and Winchester 1200)."

Someone in this thread stated that the 870 had never been issued - I'm too lazy to find the actual quote but...

I have the 870 (just sold my 20" wingmaster to my dad, picked up the 18" 6 shot express) but I like the Mossy too. A buddy of mine has the 590A1 and it is pretty sweet.

[Rshooter]

Well Dollar An Hour, may she treat you well, an 870 is a fine shotgun. :p

[Eightball]

Post pictures, man!

[Firepower!]

590A1 Compact Cruiser.

[Boats]

On my destroyer in the late 80s, our weapons lockers were filled with walnut stocked Remington M870s.

I have used Mossbergs or Ithacas ever since.

The Remmies are nice fowling pieces, but that silly little crossbolt safety and less convenient release make it a poor tactical shotgun, that is as popular as it is through tradition and inertia as much as anything.

I have never had, nor seen, an issue with a Mossie's aluminum receiver and I like how the lighter bodied Mossy (and M37 too for that matter), swings because it feels a little heavier out front than does a Remmie of the same capacity, which seems to have more heft felt by the dominant hand. Mossies do seem to recoil harder, but I only notice when firing more than 25 slugs in a session.

A Mossy travels where I point it rather instinctively. I always feel like I am "push-pulling" a Remmie onto target. So I will deal with the lighter "feeling" weapon.

To me, Remmies have always felt better in administrative handling and inferior in actual use. Obviously, I care more about the latter.

YMMV, but a 500 or 590A1 would be my choice.

Oh yeah, for everything but dynamic entry, pistol gripped pump action shotguns suck, no matter who makes them. They make for worse handling and lower speed as well as put undue recoil stresses on the dominant wrist that is now out of line with the axis of the recoil force.

Again, others might disagree.

[beardxxxd]

a 590"a1" has a metal trigger gaurd/ safety button and heavy walled barrel
model number will be 51663 not 50xxx
and will be $450ish +

http://beard.freaksho.net/data/590A1/590A1.htm

[huduguru]

I posted this in another thread about some serious deficiencies of the 870
for defense. Take what you want from it, no b.s, here....


In my opinion, the shell latch design on the 870 is it's biggest weakness,
not only the method of securing, but the design(specifically the right side
latch). Sometimes they will work when the stakes are loose, sometimes they won't. The average Joe cannot restake them without going to the gunsmith(or buying the tool).

As far as it being "a five minute job", most of the gunsmiths in my
area will take a long time and charge you a high hourly rate to do this job.
I prefer to have weapons I can replace parts on without the "services"
of a "gunsmith".

The design of the shell latches(specifically the right side). It is made
to prevent a double feed during the feed cycle. The problem is, if you
are using your 870 to do rapid fire of fairly heavy loads, the shell does
occasionally pop ahead of the right shell latch resulting in a click instead
of a bang. This is called "shell surge" and is supposedly cured by a heavy
magazine spring. Every 870 I have had(and my Norinco 982) has done this.
The heavy spring does not always work to prevent this from happening, however(it makes the shells harder to push in the magazine while pushing on the carrier, that's another issue with the 870). So in a rapid fire defensive situation, you might have to pump the gun again to get a round in the chamber, resulting in the loss of a split second which can get you killed in a gunfight.

The Mossberg shell latch that prevents double feeding actually rotates
into place so that a shell cannot be thrown forward during recoil. So this
"shell surge" cannot happen with the Mossberg unless the latch is
malfunctioning. Look at your 870 and see how quick the right shell latch
moves into place(the bolt is only back from battery by about 1in.) to block the next shell from feeding. The shotgun is still in recoil with heavy loads and combined with the slide coming back quickly, you can see how easy this can happen.

I know the proponents of the 870 are going to tell me that I'm not
pumping the gun correctly or I'm firing it to fast. Well, I'm a former
officer who has had extensive training with the 870, and the Mossberg
and 1300(personally owned). I have never had these issues with the other two. EVERY 870 I have fired has done this occasionally with slugs and
buckshot. Don't get me wrong, I like the 870 for it's feel, steel receiver
and longevity, but if someone is gunning for me and my family I'd
rather have the Mossberg. I'll keep the 870 for a hunting gun(which
it was designed for).