[wingnut]

No, I really, really don't want to start some long argument between everyone's favorite caliber and its "stopping power". Let's not do that, ok?

But I am truly curious as to why .40 caliber is currently so popular. If research dictates one can have maximized magazine capacity, less recoil, quicker follow-up shots, cheaper more readily available ammo with 9mm as compared to .40 AND .45 seems to be a "softer" perceived recoil (more of a push than a snap), less muzzle flip, and a bigger hole as compared to .40, then why do so many law enforcement professionals, and many of the general public (including many of you) go with .40 these days? It seems to be extremely popular.

I don't always buy the argument that it is the "best compromise" between 9mm and .45 either. Sometimes when you consider 9mm is great for all its reasons and .45 is great for its reasons, when you settle right in the middle of the road between the two you end up with something that is not great in any of those reasons. Compromise between two great things is worse IMO than being great at one end of the spectrum or the other. But maybe .40 has its own great qualities. What are they?

Remember, I'm a newbie to all this, and I don't have real life experience with these calibers like many of you do. I'm just basically comparing on paper. So, please teach me what makes .40 so good?

-WingNut

[browningguy]

Well to start part of your argument may be wrong:

Compromise between two great things is worse IMO than being great at one end of the spectrum or the other.

You may not believe in compromise, but billions of people on the planet do. I have pistols including .25, .32, .380, 9x19, .40, .45 suitable for carrying. And almost all the time I carry a .40. Good power level, high capacity, what's not to like.

If you don't like the .40, don't get one. But no reason to try to keep others from owning and enjoying them.

[S&W620]

As much as you are going to hate to hear it, it's because of the compromise!

I look at it like this. I like high capacity. I'm not saying high caps are the be all end all, but when given the choice I prefer a magazine that holds more rounds.

Also, in a defensive situation, I value a round that has a bit more weight behind it.

Combine these two and you end up with the .40 S&W. In my USP I get 13 rounds of a 180 grain hollowpoint at my disposal. I like that combo.

This is not to say that I don't like the feel of shooting a .45 or the price/capacity of 9mm, but to me the blend of the two qualities works. Of course in the process you do lose some of the positive qualities of both calibers, but you also gain some of the positives of both calibers.

[ArmedBear]

Seems it really got popular with the AWB. Here in CA, where we still have magazine size restrictions, a lot of people still figure they'd rather have 10 .40's than 10 9's.

[Intrepid Dad]

The .40 S&W isn't a compromise, it's the best of both worlds. It has the lower cost and higher capacity of a 9mm and the greater bullet weight and punch of the .45 ACP. That's why it's my first choice of caliber for my CCW.

[mikec]

In my USP I get 13 rounds of a 180 grain hollowpoint at my disposal. I like that combo.

An XD in .45ACP hold 13 in the mag plus one in the chamber. (Factory mags) For some reason the .40 S&W XD has 12 round mags.

The .40 is popular because some police agencies went to them to overcome some "issues" with the 9x19. The issues may be real or imagined, you decide. Then civilians started buying the guns.

[GTSteve03]

I'm not really sure either, honestly.

You get just as good penetration/expansion from high-quality 9mm loads as you do with 40 loads, and you get more capacity/less recoil.

Or, you can get better expansion and equal penetration from a high-quality 45 bullet, again with less recoil, at the expense of capacity.

But, to each their own, thankfully we live in a (mostly) free country where we have the choice!

[stevereno1]

It's a heavier caliber that fits maximum rounds in a 9mm. frame. A g-17 holds 17 rounds of 9mm, and a g-22 holds 15 rounds in the same frame. 180 gr jhp vs 124 jhp in 9mm, 147 at max for the 9. 9mm rounds fit into a .40 mag, and some .40 sw mags are interchangeable with astra and sig 9mm's, allowing for more 9mm rounds to be had. used to have to know that kind of stuff during the clinton gun-ban years

[S&W620]

mikec, I'm not quite sure I understand what you are getting at.

Sure, the XD holds more rounds of .45 but for the most part pistols tend to hold more .40 S&W rounds than .45ACP. There are exceptions, but I'm speaking in generalities.

Also, I fail to believe the general public buys particular guns just because LEO's carry them. Folks tend to buy what works, regardless of who carries/uses them.

[12131]

Right or wrong, I think things started rolling after the 1986 FBI Miami shootout, where the 9mm was deemed not an adequate "man stopper". Not sure why, but the 10mm never caught on. Then came the .40 S&W. Once LE agencies started adopting it, we lowly civilians just followed them. Just my theory.

[wingnut]

So most of you feel it's not a real compromise (meaning middle of the road yields loss of the best aspects of the extremes) but rather it's truly the best of both worlds (realizing some of what makes the others great may be lost, but most of those are not)? Does that make sense? You're saying it's best of both worlds, not settling for a compromise? Interesting.

[jmr40]

I'm in the camp that believes the .40 is not a compromise, but is better than either the 9 or .45. Yes, it does have more recoil, but it is mild compared to the .357 mag revolvers I used when I started shooting handguns.

For good or bad the 9mm and .45 ACP earned their reputations during WW2 and Vietnam. One thing that I consider to be a factor that is seldom discussed is the size of people today. The average German soldier probably only weighed 150-160 lbs, and a Japanese or Vietnamese soldier was probably less than 140. Bad guys today could easily weigh double that.

[easyg]

But I am truly curious as to why .40 caliber is currently so popular.
Because it offers the power of a .45ACP with nearly the magazine capacity of a 9mm....all in a medium sized weapon that doesn't require gorilla hands to hold comfortably.

In my opinion, the recoil is not a problem and follow-up shots are easy and fast too.

The recoil is'nt too much of a problem because .40's generally have more powerful springs and heavier slides to help manage the recoil.

IMO, when it comes to autoloaders, the .40S&W and .357Sig are the best available.

[S&W620]

Well said jmr40.

For those who feel the recoil is too "snappy" and what not, shoot a magnum revolver sometime.

The recoil isn't even comparable.

[gallo]

I think the .40 S&W cartridge's popularity stems a little from people's relentless quest to find a magic bullet, a man stopper, combined with a high capacity magazine.

The .357 magnum is a fine bullet but it kicks too much to facilitate follow-up shots and it can carry at most 8 bullets, but most commonly 6.

Are there numbers to prove the .40 S&W is better than the .45acp or the 9mm? I don't think so. Each cartridge has its loyal supporters, and each bullet if placed correctly is equally lethal. There is not a point in the human anatomy where one of these bullets would be lethal and the other would not.

A great part of winning a fight, as in the case of LEO, is having confidence in the weapon and it's ammo to do the job. A small part, though not one to be neglected, is the cheer physics of the round. It is heavier and more pressurized, so when the bullet hits it penetrates plenty and makes a bigger hole than the 9mm.

So in conclusion, if you can handle the recoil and the extra cost of the ammo, by all means, make the .40 S&W your bullet of choice. If you like to shoot a lot and not break the piggy bank, get a 9mm -- 100 years of history credit it with being an excellent choice.

[Harley Quinn]

I carry numerous various calibers around myself, starting with 357 Sig and going up from there. But I do believe the 40 is a good round especially in the 165/180 area.

I am leaning toward the 400 Corbon because of my G 21 ability (I have a barrel) The 10mm is good.
But according to many tests the 40 is now the all around best one...Why most police are carring it. It is a little harder to shoot (over the 9mm) and the reason that most LEO women will not go for it, if they can (not all though) they will shoot, or go for the 9mm. Quanity of more in the mag helps in the 9mm IMHO

40 is a great choice.
:D

[DerbyDale]

12131 Wrote: Right or wrong, I think things started rolling after the 1986 FBI Miami shootout, where the 9mm was deemed not an adequate "man stopper". Not sure why, but the 10mm never caught on. Then came the .40 S&W. Once LE agencies started adopting it, we lowly civilians just followed them. Just my theory.

You're right about the Miami shootout. It is what pushed the FBI to find a more "effective" round. The 40S&W was developed by S&W and Winchester to be more powerful than the 9mm, but easier to shoot than the 10mm.

There is some argument (which I agree with somewhat) That the performance edge once held by the 40S&W has been eaten way at by todays quality 9mm defensive rounds like the Winchester Ranger +P+ Law Enforcement Only. The expansion rate, penetration, and energy of todays 9mm +P+ rounds are far better than the rounds used back in the 80s, and has closed the gap between the 9mm and 40S&W.

[CPshooter]

Just for the record, the XD .45 holds 13 because the grip is freaking huge. An XD .40 holds 12, but has a MUCH more comfortable and practical sized grip.

I agree with the .40 being popular due to the comprimise. The .45 is great because it has stopping power. That's it though. Otherwise it's expensive, harder to conceal, and allows for a low magazine capacity. The 9mm is cheap and high capacity, but isn't known for its stopping power like .45 is.

Most .40 rounds out of a sub 5" barrel have more kinetic energy than .45s do anyways. You can also squeeze 13 rounds into a Glock 23 sized pistol. What's not to like? It's cheap to buy too! I personally like the .40s&w.

[gomakemeasandwich]

Well to start part of your argument may be wrong:

Quote:
Compromise between two great things is worse IMO than being great at one end of the spectrum or the other.
You may not believe in compromise, but billions of people on the planet do. I have pistols including .25, .32, .380, 9x19, .40, .45 suitable for carrying. And almost all the time I carry a .40. Good power level, high capacity, what's not to like.

If you don't like the .40, don't get one. But no reason to try to keep others from owning and enjoying them.

Whether he is wrong or not, he is still allowed to say why he thinks so. If he doesn't like the .40, he has a right to say why.

[gomakemeasandwich]

Don't know.

[TAB]

I think one of the reason the 40 got a bad rap when it came to recoil was firing it from light wieght( and normally plastic) guns.

All of us know that if you fire .38s from a "ultra light" snubby its going to bark more then fring it from the same gun in steel.

I personally think the 40 is a good choice for alot of people. I would personally rather have a gun in 10mm or 45 acp. Part of that is the fire power, part is I can only have 10 round mags.

[Rexster]

It took a long time for .40 S&W to become popular among private citizens. For years, it was mostly a law enforcement round, and some predicted that if another cartridge became fashionable for LE, the .40 would die off. The ammo was priced quite high for years. A good comparison is the .357 SIG, which is mostly an LE cartidge nowadays, expensive, not too popular among the public, and predicted to die off. As for .40 being a compromise, it may have been presented that way by some, but nobody considered the .38 WCF, aka .38-40, a compromise in its day. The .38 WCF, a true .40, fired a 180-grain bullet at about the same velocity as a current 180-grain .40 S&W load. Several gunwriters who were LE-oriented had urged the production of what became the .41 magnum, a cartridge which nearly died off, largely because it was just a bit too powerful for most officers to control. I think the .40 S&W largely validates the idea of the .41 for police use, but packaged in a different envelope. Do I think the .40 S&W is the best out here? Well, no, I like the .357 SIG and .357 mag more, but I am perfectly content carrying the .40 as my mandated duty cartridge. When I retire, I can always swap .357 SIG barrels into my P229 pistols, and pack .45 Colt sixguns for fun.

[DWARREN123]

It is a good caliber that comes in some outstanding platforms.

[hotpig]

The 40 got off to a slow start but picked up when Glock started giving away(almost) the G22/23 to LE Agencies. Since it is not a shabby round and gun was cheap it gained popularity in the LE world. The consumer market is generally pretty quick to follow LE.

Seven years ago the mfg told those of us on the LE side that the 357Sig would replace the 40 cal as the premier LE round. So far none of the Fire arms mfg are going to bat on it.

[amprecon]

I was a 9mm and .45acp fan, thinking that the .40S&W didn't really fill any special niche. Hearing about the harder recoil, larger muzzle flash, gun frames cracking and so on and so on, I never really gave it much consideration.
I took my Glock 19 and my friend brought his Glock 23 to shoot some targets, we traded guns for curiosity's sake, and it was then that I realized that the .40S&W wasn't the monster everyone had made it out to be. The recoil wasn't imposing at all, muzzle flash wasn't the bolt of lighting as it was described and it was as accurate as my Glock 19.
So I started looking at the .40S&W cartridge a little closer. What I discovered was that for the 9mm to be as "good" as it needs to be it needed to be in +P special defensive ammunition, which cost more. Whereas the standard defensive ammunition for the .40S&W cost about the same as the +P 9mm defensive ammunition.
They were the very exact same sized guns, the .40S&W carrying 2 less rounds than the 9mm.
So my deduction was that why not have a more powerful and larger caliber in the same sized gun as the 9mm and not have to pay more for the defensive +P ammunition. I will concede that 9mm practice ammunition is cheaper than the .40S&W, but my "practice" ammo in .40S&W is more effective than the "practice" ammo in the 9mm if that is all I have on hand at any one given time.

[Harley Quinn]

Practise with many different calibers and weapons. They all are good some are better. A rock can be a heck of a weapon in the right hands.

Shoot and practice correctly, be aware of your surroundings and be careful. Go where you want to but be ready. Martial arts are where it is at. Martial=war, art...The weapons of war, as M. Musashi mentions be familiar with all of them. (Book of 5 rings)
:uhoh:

[wally]

I think since most police departments & law enforcement agencies issue the .40S&W, right or not, a lot of folks figure if the police use it, it must be the best choice. However, while 9mm ammo is at least $2-3/box cheaper at the low end, "police overrun" specials usually makes premium JHP like Winchester SXT available in .40S&W at lower prices than the 9mm or .45 varieties.

I think .45ACP ammo is just too expensive unless you reload, most serious .45 shooters end up being reloaders.

If you go below 4" barrel length, I prefer the .40S&W over .45ACP since it has the same sectional density and 100+ fps more velocity to help insure adequate penetration.

--wally.

[kd7nqb]

Here is the chart that explains what I believe to be the benefit of .40 over both 9mm and .45acp.

Also shooting all 3 the idea of stopping power of .45acp with recoil of 9mm is not 100% true but the concept is close

The rounds compared are all Federal Hydra-Shok Jacketed Hollow Points in the low-recoil version

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee89/mdevietro/Guns/compare9-40-45.jpg

[sinistr]

caliber choice is about trade offs,i am one of those that feel the .40 offers the best in that regard.i would also feel secure with a nine or forty five,ten mill,etc.i cannot recall when a person involved in a shooting noticed the recoil during the event.i have personally taken a female newbie shooting and had her comfortably firing a de.50 after one session(300 grain).caliber and capacity are important to a point,accuracy is final.

[makarovnik]

I don't know. It's fun to shoot and is quite snappy. I like snappy. You can fit a lot of horsepower in a small package and it shoots a little flatter than the .45acp. If you don't have one I recommend buying one. Get at least one each of these:

.22LR, .22mag, 9mm luger, .357 magnum, .40S&W, .45acp and for some real fun get a 7.62x25. I love the mild recoil and big blue flames that come out of my TT-33. Get them all! What the heck, get a .38 super, a .44 magnum and whatever else that sounds like fun. Woo hoo!

[kashton]

the .40 S&W is a great round, all of my CCWs besides my .357 are .40s

[Feanaro]

Police departments. I don't think .40S&W would be nearly as popular today if there hadn't been a major trend among PDs in adopting it.

A factor not yet considered, though maybe not a huge one: .40S&W allows you to shoot IPSC in the Major category with more capacity than a .45.

[nicki]

I own many pistols, I have several pistols in both 9mm and in 40 cal.

For defensive purposes, I would choose a 40 cal over a 9mm.

Here in California, we can only have 10 rounds, so why not go with bigger bullets.

From what I hear the 40 cal has developed a "nasty street rep" as far as end results of real gun fights.

The 9mm is cheaper to shoot with target loads, but for defense, I am going for either a 40 or 45 cal pistol.

What I choose depends on my mood.

Nicki

[Constantine-p89]

45acp Llama IX-A or 40 caliber Glock 22, they both shoot great and serve as home defence weapons.

[ZeSpectre]

I can't speak for others but I grew up with the .357 Magnum. It was (and still is) my favorite handgun round. But as someone else mentioned you are generally limited to 6 (or less) rounds in a fairly bulky gun and thus my search for a semi-auto I liked began. Then one day I picked up a gun chambered in .40 S&W (don't remember what make) and that was it, I'd finally found a semi-auto that felt (to my muscle memory) like my .357 revolvers.

[golden]

When the .40 caliber auto round was released in the 180 grain weight, it was a compromise between the stopping power of the "LIGHT" .45ACP ammo like the 185 grain jacketed hollow points and the size and capacity of the 9m.m. pistols like the BERETTA, GLOCK, SIG and SMITH & WESSON.

When the high velocity .40 caliber loads in the 155 and 165 grain range became available, the .40 caliber moved from being a compromise to the best combat pistol caliber when not restricted to using ball (full metal jacket) ammo.

The 155 grain load was developed to equal the performance of the 125 grain .357 magnum round and it has proven to do exactly that.

You get the stopping power of a .357 magnum with less muzzle blast, a faster reload and twice the capacity of a revolver.

Increased recoil and and a small reduction in capacity from a 9m.m. seems like a upgrade from either the 9m.m. or .45ACP deal and not really a compromise.

Jim

[Autolycus]

I prefer the .40 because it gives me the best of both worlds. A large bullet design, high capacity, and a proven track record.

[DMK]

I don't see .40S&W as a compromise.

I can't find it proven anywhere, statistically or otherwise, that 45ACP is a better manstopper or that the three extra rounds of 9mm in a full size gun have ever been of any benefit in a civilian self defense incident.

[possum]

i started with .40 in semi auto guns because that is what i knew and that is what my dad raised me on, he always had .40 handguns. and just as of 2-3 years ago did he move to the 9mm. and now i have so much brass, and .40 loads worked up and the components that it would be stupid to not use up the stuff that i had, so isee me working with .40 for a long time. i have recently bought 2 .45 acp handguns and i will shot them quite a bit, but after the .40 and .45acp brass is used up if it does lossing some here and there, then i will probally resort to the 9mm for lower ammo cost. since i train alot and put lots of rds through my guns 9mm is best for me and my situation.

for now and for the majority of the forseeable future .40 will be on my side, and in my safe.

[.357 magnum]

I own Several 9mm's Several .45's and Several .40's. My MP .40's are the Best, they are tack drivers! The MP has 15 in the mag one in the chamber. I use Winchester 180gr Bonded LE Ammo with Velocity of 1070 FPS and 455 ft-lbs of energy out of the muzzle:evil: That is definitely not a compromise.:)

The Best to All!

Frank

PS-Forgot to Mention Since .40 is a Big LE Caliber. SD Ammo is easier to get and Ammo costs are lower then my .45's.

[GTSteve03]

Can someone explain this mythical "stopping power" that the 40 seems to have in spades?

All I see are references to what's actually called "kinetic energy." And from my understanding, there are no physiological effects from kinetic energy due to bullets unless they are at least 1000 ft-lbs. That's the energy level hunters rely on to make clean kills on game. From my research, nothing short of a 454 is going to give you that kind of energy in a handgun.

All handgun bullets rely on penetration and expansion to cause permanent tissue damage. In all ballistic gelatin tests I have seen, the 40 does not penetrate or expand any better than high-quality 9mm or 45 rounds.

[SDGlock23]

The only thing guaranteed to give true stopping power is your 1/2 ton pickup truck. Rifles and shotguns do better than pistols, but still nothing is guaranteed. I like the .40/10mm and .45 in pistols, but for the size/capacity the .40 wins out.

[hotpig]

Obviously all had guns are a compromise. It would be really inconvenient to carry a long gun around all of the time. So lets throw the comprise argument out of the window.

Modern defensive ammo function well in all size guns. Being less velocity dependant means we now enjoy ammo that penetrates and expands well with a decreased chance of over penetration.

So velocity and other misc numbers are just for reading purposes. So those arguments we can toss out.

Thanks to technology we can carry what ever caliber and bullet grain we want. Add a third generation hollow point bullet and the field between calibers narrow tremendously. I see it as a matter of preference since there is little difference between a 9mm and a 40 or 45.

[Feanaro]

.40S&W is a compromise. Otherwise, there would only be 10mm. ;)

[.357 magnum]

The original question is "Why is the .40 so Popular" Also mentioned is the fact it is sometimes thought of as a compromise between the 9mm and .45. I do not see hunting rifles mentioned in the question. They would be impractical as carry weapons. In answer to your mythical stopping power question. I see nothing mythical about the .40's street record. It is Excellent!:)

The Best to You and Yours!

Frank

PS-hotpig-Thank You for selling Great Ammo:) and I hope you get some more Winchester Bonded 230gr .45 and Federal HST 9mm 124 + P in soon!