[hopelessjoe]

The Tokarev can be had in hollow point. It can be loaded with smaller bullets in a sabot. It is very powerful. It would work well in a modern double (or single, if that is your ''thing'') stack pistol.

Yet, there are no modern pistols available on the American market.

Why?

Even the Chinese military continues to make guns for this round.

Why isn't the Tokarev getting it's due here?

[jonnyc]

Up until the fairly recent influx of great quantities of CZ52s, there wasn't much around here that fired the round and commercial ammo companies avoided the cartridge. In addition, I think many American shooters fear over-penetration and prefer larger, heavier pistol rounds.

[zinj]

It is also very long, and there aren't many frames that can chamber it.

[spwenger]

There is a saying in science that fact is the greatest enemy of theory. While there is a significant share of the firearm-purchasing market that will spend money on the basis of theory (particularly if that theory supports a prior opinion), others prefer some some of record of real-life performance in the choice of life-saving equipment.

Many decades ago, W.E. Faribairn and E.A. Sykes published a little book, Shooting To Live with the One-hand Gun. Aside from the continuum of point shooting they present, based on their observations of 666 actual gunfights, one of the more intriguing chapters deals with "stopping power." Essentially, they state that they had initially expected the best results from large, slow-moving, soft lead bullets. In fact, they saw very inconsistent results, with a few surprising successes with small-caliber, high-velocity jacketed bullets fired from Mauser pistols. However, in the ensuing decades there has not been any significant body of experience demonstrating that a small-caliber, high-velocity handgun bullet, hollowpoint or otherwise, performs better than a medium- or large-caliber hollowpoint, albeit at lower velocity.

We get the most documentation of bullet preformance from officer-involved shootings. With street-proven performance from many medium- and large-caliber rounds, it's unlikely that police agencies will volunteer their officers as guinea pigs with smaller calibers. While Ruger has just introduced the ".327 Magnum" as a defensive cartridge, I doubt that it will produce enough real-life data to substantiate the claim that a small-caliber, high-velocity handgun round is "obviously" a good handgun round for self-defense. Barring such a body of knowledge, I find it hard to believe that it would be finacially worthwhile to develop modern pistols in chamberings such as the the 7.62x25mm.

[DWARREN123]

I wold like a modern semi handgun in this round. A nice little carbine like a Camp 9 or higher quality Hi-Point would also be neat.

[Thylacine]

I too would like a modern semi chambered for this round. Also, I would like to have an AK using the gas system in this caliber.

[jwxspoon]

I consider the 5.7 to be a very similar round, sort of a modern equivalent.

jw

[rcmodel]

Marlin Camp Carbine?

Try the U.S. .30 cal. M-1 Carbine.

It will move the same caliber & weight bullet 200 FPS faster.

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j219/rcmodel/KTOG/1224.gif
rcmodel

[Vonderek]

I just fired my new (old) T-33 for the first time today. What a fun gun and enjoyable round to shoot! I was expecting recoil and muzzle blast after all I've read about the 7.62x25 but instead it is a very pleasant round to shoot.

[MAKster]

I think the 7.62x25 has faded away because it was used in only a few specific guns like the Tokarev TT-33 pistol and PPSh submachine guns from WWII. The Russians then moved on to the Makarov and the AK. The Russians weren't interested in the 7.62x25 any more and the West was adopting the 9mm.

[PTK]

rcmodel

You're correct, but that's 200FPS for the added bulk and weight of a rifle vs. a pistol.

[orionengnr]

Bottom line--it is a light weight .25 caliber projectile launched by a pistol-length barrel. With all of the limitations inherent therein.

It's not doing any damage to the 9mm/38/357/40/45 market. It is a specialty round that appeals to a small segment of the shooting poulation.

If it offered a legitimate size or power advantage, people would flock to it.

[jpwilly]

Bottom line--it is a light weight .25 caliber projectile launched by a pistol-length barrel. With all of the limitations inherent therein.

It's not doing any damage to the 9mm/38/357/40/45 market. It is a specialty round that appeals to a small segment of the shooting poulation.

If it offered a legitimate size or power advantage, people would flock to it.

Yea what he said...plus its already easily beaten by the 9mm or something similar you can get in your favorite pistol already. WHY BOTHER?

[dstorm1911]

ya used to be able to get a 1911 conversion for the 7.62x25, I have no idea who made them but I have one and have seen 7 others, mine uses a Stainless Barsto barrel and is on a non marked Caspian Slide, the mag follower angles the cartridges up at a lil sharper angle in the mag then the feed lips level off the round to be chambered next uses a full length GR that uses one spring inside and one outside, I put the upper on a 9 mm lower, very reliable

[White Horseradish]

Bottom line--it is a light weight .25 caliber projectile launched by a pistol-length barrel. With all of the limitations inherent therein.Err... When did 7.62mm become .25 caliber? It's .30 caliber.

[Geronimo45]

If it offered a legitimate size or power advantage, people would flock to it.
Like they did with .38 Super. Or .41 Magnum. Or .44 Special. All these cartridges still exist, but don't have too much market share. Ballistic goodness does not necessarily make for popularity.

Personally, I'd love to see a doublestack in that caliber. Something along the lines of a CZ 75. Maybe we could convince Taurus to do the deed?

[SaMx]

to me the real niche for this round is the "PDW"
It's firing a heavier bullet than the 5.7 and similar rounds, and it does seem to have the necessary armor penetrating ability. A small light modern subgun firing the 7.62 tokarev seems like it could do the same job as the p90 or mp7, only better.

[Prince Yamato]

Frankly, I'd like to see more adoption of soviet calibers. Do you know how badly I want a Glock in 9x18?

The ideal candidate for building more guns in this caliber is Norinco, but there's a segment of the American (and THR population) that refuses to buy anything remotely "communist". CZ, being familiar with the caliber however, could probably be persuaded with letters to make limited runs of guns in that caliber.

[White Horseradish]

The ideal candidate for building more guns in this caliber is Norinco, but there's a segment of the American (and THR population) that refuses to buy anything remotely "communist".Not only that, but there are some import restrictions on them. IIRC, that's why we only see Norinco shotguns any more.

[Norm357]

I want an AR chambered in 7.62x25.

[Clark]

I love Tokarevs.
I collect ones from different countries.
I hand load for them.
I have one of the few copies of A collector's guide to Tokarev pistols (Unknown Binding)
by John Remling (Author) that I am aware of.

http://www.collectorfirearms.org/website%20Images/Books%20&%20Manuals/bk-69.htm

How can I have more of a Tokarev experience?
I put a .308 bull barrel on a Tokarev, and chambered for 30 Mauser.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=30127

I have converted a Tokarev or two to 9x23mm
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=72023&highlight=9x23mm

I have thought about making a single shot .223 Tokarev.
I have thought of making my own Tokarev grips, but when I carry one, it is without grips.

[dogrunner]

err, err, err, err.............it IS............IS...........IS: .30 cal....ie: 7.62=.30..........where'd the .25 come from?????????

[SaMx]

looking at it's wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62x25) page
the diameter of the bullet is .309 inches
the overall length is 1.35 inches
it develops between 288 and 360 ft-pounds of energy

that means it is in the same power class energy wise as 9mm
and it's a bit longer than .45 ACP, but many gun's that can chamber that should be able to take the 7.62x25

I was actually surprised to see some 5.7 loadings beat it in terms of energy, I know that round has a poor reputation in terms of performance. but then again the energy can only tell you so much. Plus that was out of a ten inch barrel. I bet the tokarev would benefit a lot from a longer barrel.

[naki011]

Have you tested yugo tokarev?

[rcmodel]

PTK said:
rcmodel
You're correct, but that's 200FPS for the added bulk and weight of a rifle vs. a pistol.But, two people had already ask for a Camp 9 carbine, and an AK-47 in 7.62x25.
Now, someone else wants an AR-15 in that caliber!

At least three people were not talking about 7.62x25 pistols!


err, err, err, err.............it IS............IS...........IS: .30 cal....ie: 7.62=.30..........where'd the .25 come from?????????7.62mm is the caliber of the bullet.
25mm is the case length.

Same as all other metric calibers like 7.62x39, 7.62x53R, 9x19MM NATO, etc.

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j219/rcmodel/KTOG/1224.gif
rcmodel

[Clark]

Have you tested yugo tokarev?

No, but I just remembered, I made a 7.62x25mm rifle with a 1903 Turkish Mauser action and stock and a Rem 700 30-06 take off barrel.

I hate converting Mausers to the .223 sized bolt face:(

[mrmeval]

"The .223 Timbs is the result of a co-development between Quality Cartridge and Joseph Timbs. It is the American answer to the proprietary .224 BOZ, bringing the CZ-52 into the new millenium. The .223 Timbs is a special loading of the 7.62x25 round for use only in the CZ-52 pistol. It consists of a sabot like the Remington "Accelerator" pushing a 50gr bullet over 2000fps. Concept was for devastating multi-purpose round, useable for small game, varmits, and defense. Accuracy has proven to be on-par with traditional rounds fired from the same pistol, and terminal ballistics are quite impressive with initial tests showing devastating expansion from the varmit-type bullets."

http://www.ammo-one.com/223Timbs.html

http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-2116571_ITM

[nathan]

A revolver chambered for this caliber would be nice to have. LEt say , SW 640 snubbie, hammerless. The most elegant concealed snubbie design IMHO.

[Boarhunter]

I would love to see a modern, hi-cap double stack offered in 7.62x25, particularly if offered in SA, cocked-and-locked format.

Boarhunter

[BuntlineSpecial]

dstorm1911 - PM me, please? Where can I get a conversion for a 1911 to take 7.62x25? I'd love to have one, keep an eye out for me, please. Keep me in mind !!
What's not to love, it's a long neck bullet moving fast as/faster than a .357 Mag, without the recoil.

[Tyris]

I would buy a new Kimber if I could get a 7.62x25 kit for it.
I'd be beside myself if Glock or SIG made a gun chambered for it.

-T

[SaMx]

rcmodel, the advantage the tokarev round has of the the .30 carbine is that he overall length is shorter. Then you could get ammo commonality between your carbine and pistol.

[rmkey]

The Russians had the right idea. Dont know how many of you guys have fired a SMG with a high rate of fire? They are only accurate the first tenth of a second due to climb.
The 7.62x25 in a SMG could be fired at a high cyclic rate and the very light bullet would make it very controllable. I suspect the Russian wanted penetration due the heavy winter cloths the germans were wearing and needed multiple hits for a kill. Thus the ppsh41

[mrmeval]

There were some 1911 vietcong bring backs in that caliber. ;)
http://www.jouster.com/cgi-bin/pistol/pistol.pl?noframes;read=26383

Someone found a barrel somewhere and used a Metalform magazine with it.
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-119435.html

[Joe the Redneck]

When you look at handguns .35 and .44/45 cal projectiles fired at moderate speed have been the standard. And in all fairness, they work very well.

When you compare the standard rifle rounds used today compared to what was used 100 years ago, you can see the small caliber/high speed rounds won the race.

Generating high velocity in a handgun is tough. In order to make a small bullet do the same job as a big one, speed have to go up. We are just starting to get to that point. I believe the handgun round will radically chance in the next ten years or so.

[tinygnat219]

Shoot,

I would buy ANY manufacturer who decides to go with the 7.62 Tokarev in a modern Semi-Auto double stack mag my business, even Taurus. Now THAT's saying something!

[32 Magnum]

Czech M-48 7.62x25mm round out of a CZ-52 pistol, will defeat soft body armor up to most level 2s (the steel core rounds will defeat level 3) and were designed to beat 1/4" aluminum armor plate on APCs out of a HAND GUN, ... and this round (S&B at 1640 FPS) will penetrate NATO kevlar helmets. 9mm will not do any of that out of pistol or a carbine length barrel. FN FIVE-SEVEN is an attempt by the NATO contractors to produce a comparable cartridge for handgun and subgun use.

[jon_in_wv]

Here is what I know about the 7.62x25.
1. Accurate. My CZ52 has shot 2.25 inch groups at 50 yards with cheap surplus ammo. Few guns or calibers can do that.
2. Flat shooting. At 50 yards I aim dead on and hit dead on. Over Christmas I was at my parents house and was shooting it at over 150 yards at a sign on a side hill. Hit it pretty regularly once again aiming dead on.
3. Penetrates like crazy. Did a wet pack test with some ammo and decided to fire the 9mm 124gr ball vs the 80gr surplus Tok. (not sure about the weight, I'm guessing really) The wet pack was about 16 inches thick and backed up with several dry catalogs to act as a back stop. The 9mm was stopped by the catalog. The Tok round put a hole about two fingers wide through the catalog and penetrated deeply enough into the ground that I didn't recover it. Brutal.

I think the 7.62x25 is a very versatile and effective round. I would love a modern handgun loaded with HPs. I definitely wouldn't feel at a disadvantage with it. Its like a supercharged Makarov. My CZ52 isn't much of a carry gun. With a few design improvements to the safety and the grips I would carry it without reservation.

[saboteur]

Check out www.militarygunsupply.com

They offer PPSh sub-guns...which shoot 7.62x25

[jon_in_wv]

ooooooo. Those are sweet. Now I have to find a way to score 800 bucks without my wife finding out!!!

[Myles]

I'd jump on a modern pistol and carbine combination in a hearbeat.

7.62x25 vs kevlar helmet - does what the 9mm, .357, and .45 cannot

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot29_4.htm

[Joe Demko]

Something like a CZ-75 in 7.62 Tokarev would be the absolute shiznit. I 'd own at least two.

[Jim K]

In spite of all the hype about the 7.62x25 (aka .30 Mauser), it is in the same power class as the 9x19 (9mm Luger), and pistols made for one will work with the other with no change but the barrel (providing the magazine is long enough).

The Germans converted thousands of captured Tokarev pistols to 9mm with only a barrel change.

Jim

[Deer Hunter]

The .30 mauser and the 7.62x25 are NOT the same, mind you.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/images/762x25mm90grXTP.JPG

From Brassfetcher.com
http://www.brassfetcher.com/hornady762x25mmJHPs.html

I love this round. As soon as the 5.7 came out, it was obsolete. This round has been doing what the 5.7 might do for years.

[Firepower!]

Is it 7.63 Soviet? If not then I dont see any chinese submachines being made for these, and where I live get get lots of chinese guns. Most popular round for them is .30.

[jon_in_wv]

Ballistic ally they aren't the same but in external dimensions they are virtually the same and I think that was his point. Also remember it is a bit easier to convert to the shorter cartridge than vise versa. "Providing the magazine is long enough" being the key there.

[Clark]

The .30 mauser and the 7.62x25 are NOT the same, mind you.

The dimensions of the two overlap.
I bought a 30 Mauser reamer for chambering 7.62x25mm barrels, simply becuase it was cheaper.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=15110&d=1089827012

[Just Jim]

I have a chance to buy a Polish Tok with dies and ammo along with 4 extra mags for $250. Is this a deal and are they any good???

jj

[Buck Nekkid]

There IS a "modern" pistol chambered in 7.62x25--the Zastava Model 57. Here it is in the Lux version

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/ottonsure/ZastavaModel57Lux.jpg

Unfortunately it's not imported and probably never will be.

RE: CZ 52 Conversions. I have a factory (or importer) conversion in 9mm Para. It shoots fine and the only change in the pistol is the barrel. The 9mm functions just fine with the standard CZ 52 magazine.

[Constantine-p89]

Nice, I wonder how much it would cost?

[Elvishead]

There IS a "modern" pistol chambered in 7.62x25--the Zastava Model 57. Here it is in the Lux version

:what:

Coooolll!!!!

[SeanSw]

We need to talk to the Charles Daly rep about getting that one imported!

[Buck Nekkid]

I sent them an email about it a while ago, never received a response.

[woad_yurt]

Someone above said that 7.62X25 is in the same power class as 9MM. What??!!! Just the sound alone is a tip-off that there is a major power difference. If I go to the range and shoot a 9MM, I just shoot and go home. If I shoot my CZ52, folks always come over and ask "What is that thing? I heard you from all the way over there...." If there's any doubt, buy some Wolf 7.62 hollowpoints and shoot a stack of wet newspapers or a 4X4. Then, do it with 9MMs. The 7.62 does a whole lot more damage. Or, use some FMJs. Again, the 7.62 trounces a 9MM.

Note to Just Jim: All of that for $250 is a great deal; buy it!

[Dave Markowitz]

There IS a "modern" pistol chambered in 7.62x25--the Zastava Model 57. Here it is in the Lux version

Neat. It's a Tokarev with a fancy finish and ugly grips.

[Ash]

The Yugo's and Chinese have done many, many things with the Tokarev design. I've even seen a Tokerev that was built up to look just like a 1911. The only problem is the hammer location - a dead give-away for Tokes.

I think the round has tremendous potential in pistols that could take it. Could one convert a pistol in 38 Super by merely changing out the barrel?

Ash

[silverlance]

how does that monster tokarev shoot?

[CZ 42]

Someone mentioned on czforums.com that Lone Wolf distributors would make a 7.62x25 barrel for 10mm Glocks. I was dumbstruck, that's like the best thing imaginable other than CZp-01 in it...

[Cosmoline]

I'll buy from commies, but prefer to buy from them after we beat them.

[SaMx]

the tokarev is louder because it's operating at higher pressure. The bullet is lighter, so the muzzle energy is similar.

[naki011]

yugo

[CZ 42]

Hey, what's that on the bottom? Is it in .30 tok? Looks pretty good...

[Moonclip]

I think it is not as popular simply because it is a .30cal. Many Americans still disdain a 9mm even.

[Novus Collectus]

looking at it's wikipedia page
the diameter of the bullet is .309 inches
the overall length is 1.35 inches
it develops between 288 and 360 ft-pounds of energy

that means it is in the same power class energy wise as 9mm The Wikipedia page is deceptive. It lists the power of the common combloc milsurp which is clocked at about 1350 ft/s. The commercial Sellier and Bellot ammo, some Comloc and supposedly most of the Chinese ammo is at >1500 feet per second (sometimes 1600 or close to it) putting the muzzle energy at in the low to mid 400 foot pounds which is as much or more muzzle energy than the 9mm +P+.

[Moonclip]

I always found hot 7.62tok ballistics interesting. For example, I bet a m1 carbine "enforcer" cut down version probably produces about the same muzzle velocity as a CZ52 with hot ammo. The enforcer is a much larger gun with a longer barrel.

And I bet my Win 94 in .357mag with hot 125gr loads is about approaching m1 carbine ballistics. Not to bash the m1carbine though, I own and operate one and feel it's adequate with correct ammo.

[roscoe]

The .357 out of a rifle far exceeds M1 carbine loads, given hot .357 loads, like DoubleTap or Buffalo Bore. In fact, it is in 30-30 ranges.

[MechAg94]

Does anyone know if those ppsh semi-auto subgun clones are any good? I saw one at a gun show and thought it would be a good gun to get just for playing around.

http://www.militarygunsupply.com/shop2/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=14_15&products_id=133

I guess the only issue would be that for almost the same price, I could get a Thompson SMG clone.

[rdrancher]

Is 2000fps good enough?
"The .223 Timbs is the result of a co-development between Quality Cartridge and Joseph Timbs. It is the American answer to the proprietary .224 BOZ, bringing the CZ-52 into the new millenium. The .223 Timbs is a special loading of the 7.62x25 round for use only in the CZ-52 pistol. It consists of a sabot like the Remington "Accelerator" pushing a 50gr bullet over 2000fps. Concept was for devastating multi-purpose round, useable for small game, varmits, and defense. Accuracy has proven to be on-par with traditional rounds fired from the same pistol, and terminal ballistics are quite impressive with initial tests showing devastating expansion from the varmit-type bullets."

http://www.ammo-one.com/223Timbs.html

http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee37/rdrancher/223Timbs.jpg

Whoa!

rd

[Schwebel]

Lets continue to keep it unpopular, keeps ammo really cheap. The CZ-52 is by far my favorite range pistol. The thing emmits giant fireballs and is loud as hell, plus much cheaper to shoot than a 9mm, and people always want to know what the hell it is.

[Illuminaughty]

I want a glock chambered in tok hard.

[nathan]

Preferred by many older Asian gangs bec of their penetrating capability. Buy the Romanian TT 33 now as they are still very cheap and most dont know much about them. Once gone, will be gone. I have my Norinco 54 -1 in my side box just in case.

[MCgunner]

What can it do that whatever else available can't? I don't think it's all that necessary and wouldn't be chambered, likely, in a pocket sized gun for CCW, so I wouldn't be interested. I prefer 9mm subcompacts for CCW, neigh on perfect, well, if I go auto.

[acmech]

Does anyone know if those ppsh semi-auto subgun clones are any good? I saw one at a gun show and thought it would be a good gun to get just for playing around.

http://www.militarygunsupply.com/sho...roducts_id=133

I guess the only issue would be that for almost the same price, I could get a Thompson SMG clone.

You can build your own 7.25x25 carbine, I just built one and love it, took a week of evenings playing with the magwell adapter, but I use a Romanian G parts kits, and a ppsh barrel which I sleeve for the trunnion and barrel extension. I like it more than any of the other guns I have right now. Just for your info. centerfire systems has c grade romy g parts kits for $89 right now. Here's what I came up with, I borrowed from other peoples ideas, its not my own. Only problem is you have to work with 50 year old mags and drums and they aren't all reliable, you may need to tweek them. IOINC has 10 mags for $99.
http://www.gunco.net/gallery/data/500/Resize_of_DSC00255c.jpg

[Novus Collectus]

Acmech......cool!!!!!

[mnw42]

I ran some Bulgarian surplus through a chronograph a little while back. The outside temp was around 70 and the stuff was running between 1475 and 1620 fps! Now that is some spread!

[MDW GUNS]

http://www.mdwguns.com/alter_stand/762ammo.jpg

You can see that the 7,62X25 is longer then most common handgun rounds and that's why you don't find it anywhere.
Personally I would like to see a Glock with that round too, but it will not happen!

[MD_Willington]

No, but I just remembered, I made a 7.62x25mm rifle with a 1903 Turkish Mauser action and stock and a Rem 700 30-06 take off barrel.

I hate converting Mausers to the .223 sized bolt face

Why not start with a Charles Daly mini mauser 223 rebarreled?

[JShirley]

You could just about go instead with a 9x23mm Winchester, if you were going to go that route. I was thinking seriously about it, a few years ago.

You'd get more power from the Winchester, but then again, wouldn't have cheap surplus ammo, either.

I saw someone online a few weeks ago talking about a 7.62x25mm AR they were working on, but I can't find where that was, now...

(I'm interested, because I'm planning on building another AR, hopefully soon.)

Oh, anyway, I've wished for a 7.62x25mm Glock for years. And a Glock carbine, for that matter. And a full-sized, single-stack Glock 10mm. Hell, I've been dreaming about one of those since 1996.

John

[Boarhunter]

Curious. Has anyone written to any of the major manufacturers, including Glock, suggesting they consider the 7.62x25? And if so, get any responses?

Boarhunter

[Jim Watson]

I doubt a manufacturer is going to tool up for a new frame to handle cheap surplus ammunition. He is certainly not going to sell the resulting gun in competition with cheap surplus pistols. The Barsto barrel for the conversion dstorm describes in post #14 surely cost more than any Tokarev or CZ52; probably more than one of each.

So the question becomes, are you enthused enough to pay the price of, say, a new 10mm pistol and buy fresh commercial ammuntion for it just to get the performance of the 7.62x25? The gun companies don't think enough of you would.

[Boarhunter]

I agree completely, Jim.

Boarhunter

[Joe Demko]

Ruger tooled up and made a .30 carbine revolver for many years. There was no reason other than cheap ammo to make it or to buy it. The Tanfoglio 10mm pistols already exist and aren't terribly pricey. If Tanfoglio would make a run of 7.62 pistols on that frame, I'd certainly buy one. The round interests me more because of its capabilities than its price.

[DMK]

The Yugo's and Chinese have done many, many things with the Tokarev design. I've even seen a Tokerev that was built up to look just like a 1911. The only problem is the hammer location - a dead give-away for Tokes.
Actually, the Tokarev is a pretty good pistol and would be a great platform to modernize. It's very thin, which would make it a great CCW.

If one could make a modernized version, it would be a great gun. All it needs is better sights, and an effective safety. Pretty much any of the nice features put on modern 1911s would work for this gun.

[Jim Watson]

I don't think the situation is analogous, Joe. There were no cheap surplus (or expensive new) .30 Carbine handguns when Ruger came out with the .30 Blackhawk. Further, all it cost them was a set of chamber reamers and some .30 barrel blanks, they did not have to tool up for a new frame. (They tried that with the .357 Maximum, which was a flop and not likely to encourage them to try anything similar again.)

Is the Tanfoglio 10mm long enough for .30 Tok?

If I wanted something light and fast, not necessarily cheap, I'd see how fast I could blow the 80 gr Barnes X .380 bullet out of a 9x23.

Agree with DMK, nothing wrong with a Tok that the P38 style grips of the Tokagypt and a convenient and secure thumb safety would not fix.

[Clark]

MD_Willington
Senior Member




Quote:
Originally Posted by Clark
No, but I just remembered, I made a 7.62x25mm rifle with a 1903 Turkish Mauser action and stock and a Rem 700 30-06 take off barrel.

I hate converting Mausers to the .223 sized bolt face
Why not start with a Charles Daly mini mauser 223 rebarreled?


I have bent the bolt or TIG welded the bolt on ~50 old 98 Mausers that are lying around waiting for a use.

Two weeks ago I blew the bolt face, extractor, extractor collar, and bent the ejector of a mini Mauser. Kiss ~$200 goodbye.

Those CZ527s are cute, but they are no way as sturdy or cheap as a 98.

I have done lots of experimenting with high pressure experiments and I have some conclusions:
1) CZ52s have thin barrels of widely varying heat treat, that make them weak.
2) SKSs have weak firing pins that bend with gas leaks
3) 30 carbine brass is thin between the extractor groove and primer pocket, and that makes it weak.
4) 10mm brass is too weak is thin between the extractor groove and primer pocket, and that makes it weak.
5) Win 7.62x39 brass is thin between the extractor groove and primer pocket, and that makes it weak.
6) Tokarevs are strong
7) 9mm mag is too long for Tokarevs
8) 9x23mm is just right for Tokarevs
9) 7.62x25mm S&B brass is good, but 9x23 is way better
10) Most posters on the internet are following common recipes for consumerism and feel their processes are exclusively correct.

[Joe Demko]

Agree with DMK, nothing wrong with a Tok that the P38 style grips of the Tokagypt and a convenient and secure thumb safety would not fix.

I had a Chinese copy of the Tokagypt in 9mm. I like the regular Tokarev grips better. All I would need is a better safety.

[Moonclip]

All my Chinese Tokarevs have had poor qc and unreliability in 9x19, even the 213 designed for it with the correct mags. I'd like to find the mythical .38super conversion for Tokarevs.

I'm so weird, I want to covery 7.62 tok guns to .38super and I want other guns to be chambered in 7.62tok! A Glock would do, but I'm open to other modern designs. The availabilty of cheap surplus is not a big factor in why I want a gun so chambered. And I do have a .30carbine blackhawk, maybe a cylinder for 7.62Tok would be fun though I know bottleneck cartridges and revolvers are kind of not that great a mix.

[Clark]

You don't want 38 Super, you want 9x23.
You don't want that rim.
The conversion is very easy.

Avoid the 213.
There are breech face and hammer features that I conclude are there for legal reasons, and not positive functional reasons.
Also the ejection port is too short for 9x23 unfired cartridges.

[TNThomas]

Alls i know is that this caliber is FUN to shoot, especially since it is cheap. It is great for target shooting, especially since it shoots so fast, it is EASY to hit targets at 100 yards with this gun, but thats not what a pistol should be meant for, for that there is rifles, and at short ranges modern pistol calibers have much more stopping power. Actually now that i think aboult it, this gun has awsome stoping power, if the time arises when you need this caliber in self defense, it has a one-two punch, the attacker will first get a entry and exit bullet wound, then will be immedialy lit on fire by the muzzle flash!

[PupSter]

Well I know this is an old post, but maybe someone is still watching it.. There are now a few new guns chambered in 7.62x25mm. I think with all the Tokarev's around there is renewed interest. There is new ammo being made stateside as well, they know when the surplus runs out, there will be a need.. :-)

[Boarhunter]

This is a round that has always fascinated me; hopefully, manufacturers of new handguns will one day see fit to add it as an option.

Boarhunter

[Chemistry Guy]

How much of the cartridge's reputation for penetration is due to the fact that there is a lot of steel core surplus floating around? If .38 +P and 9mm +P with a steel core was dirt cheap would anyone care about the Tokarev cartridge?

[jonnyc]

Actually, very little Tokarev production was ever steel-cored, and it still has a well-deserved reputation for great penetration.

[sonier]

Dont ever forget that its cheaper to buy bulk surplus than reload ammo for it :) I would kill for a CZ-75b or any of those models in 7.62x25

[LawofThirds]

I think part of the reason that people are loath to produce 7.62x25 handguns is that the round is significantly longer than 9mm and thus would be forced into a .45/10mm sized frame. Which means that people are going to go ".30 or .45" and decide that 50% larger bullets might be attractive. Plus, it's not going to fit as many people's hands, forcing it even farther into niche markets.

As to the revolver....horrible idea. Shouldered rounds in a revolver are well known for tying up the cylinder as they're forced back into the forcing cone by firing.

I've really got to agree with the 5.7 comments though, it goes through so much to end up being a sub par shadow of 7.62x25mm

[Gelgoog]

well considering that there are plenty of modern handguns that were chambered in .30 mauser it shouldnt be too much of a stretch to get the tok round in them.

I would look at the Sig 210 as being a good candidate for a conversion.

http://www.novaksights.com/images/GUNS/sig/SIG%20right.jpg

However the best candidate would probably be the Star pistols chambered in 9x25.

[Sam1911]

Shouldered rounds in a revolver are well known for tying up the cylinder as they're forced back into the forcing cone by firing
That would be forced back against the recoil shield. Moving the case forward into the forcing cone would definitely tie the gun up something fierce ... but there's something BAD WRONG if that happens! :D

[LawofThirds]

Er yeah, that's what I meant. *cough*

[Mastiff]

The Star pistols were chambered in 9mm Largo, which is 9x23, not 9x25. I fired 9x23 Winchester in my Star Super A with no modification. However, thinking about it, I decided to put in stronger springs before I shoot it again.

[Clifford]

Didn't S&W fix the tapered cartridge tying up the cyl issue by using a dual firing pin sort of apperatus? One pin strikes the primer and the other "pushes" the round forward to keep it from backing out.

Mastiff, you're more of a man than me. The 9X23 win is loaded to nearly twice the pressure of the largo. I don't think I have the grit to try that combo while holding the gun.

[wlewisiii]

Hell with it.

I want an M2 carbine in 7.62x25! :D

[valorius]

What can it do that whatever else available can't? I don't think it's all that necessary and wouldn't be chambered, likely, in a pocket sized gun for CCW, so I wouldn't be interested. I prefer 9mm subcompacts for CCW, neigh on perfect, well, if I go auto.
7.62x25 can easily defeat a Kevlar helmet.

It is a tremendous penetrater.

[Gelgoog]

The Star pistols were chambered in 9mm Largo, which is 9x23, not 9x25.

typo ;)

[Furious Macedonian]

This pistol is made in Serbia, in Zastava Arms Factory. This lux version cost around 300 dollars, and the regular version is 250 dollars.
This gun is very well made and its cheap. Its widely used here in the Balcans.
7.62x25 is very powerfull round, but here in my country this ammo isnt very cheap, it cost 31.99$ for a box with 50 rounds.You can kill 3 guys with a single bullet of this caliber!
easily defeating body armor and helmets.
Goverment banned this round from police use because of the over-penetrating power.

btw 5.7x28 is a overrated round you can not compare with 7.62x25 mm
see the gelatine tests on http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page1293.htm

and Why isn't it more popular?

Because people from military/police/security personel that wears body armor want to sleep well. 7.62x25 mm is a nightmare for them !

[valorius]

The 5.7 is underrated if you ask me.

100 meter range, with EA ammuniton: 300+fpe energy from a .22 pistol, 2000+fps velocity, Class II armor penetrating capability, and ammo that violently fragments in soft tissue like 5.56mm rounds do. Oh...and a 31rd capacity in your pistol.

But i like the Tokarev round a lot too.

[JR47]

About the ONLY thing that the 7.62x25 has going for it is cheap surplus ammo. That ammo is corrosive, non-reloadable, and varies widely in QC and storage, resulting in wide variations in speed and accuracy.

The guns chambered for it were also large, with minimal sights, and most had no safeties beyond a half-cock notch. The safeties fitted to them were all done to allow import, and tend to be just enough to do that. Placement, fit, finish, and movement weren't considered paramount.

The 7.62x25 has had a justly deserved reputation for penetration for nearly a century. In the 1970's, the Hong Kong Police were letting bids for armor that was specified to be "7.62x25 resistant".

Note also that the countries that developed the guns, and the caliber itself, have all moved on to "better" rounds. The 7.62x25 hasn't been issue in the Russian Army since the 1960's. The Chinese are today moving away from the 7.62x25 for the 9x19, and a proprietary cartridge of similar performance specs.

The ability to penetrate body armor requires that you expect to have to fight body-armored enemies. Civilians aren't quite likely to do that as a requirement of CCW. Carrying a Tok, a Tokagypt, or one of the Romanian or Yugo variants is going to take some doing, as they are full-sized pistols.

Using one of these guns, in 7.62x25, against the more usual criminal element will result in ice-pick wounds. This will reduce the effectiveness of the weapon, and will require much more proper marksmanship, and a willing subject.

There is a JHP made by Wolf Gold for the gun, but I haven't seen any actual penetration vs. expansion information. Face it, if it expends, it won't pierce body-armor that well.

[valorius]

7.62 Tok also has the little fact that it blows right through body armor and most barriers going for it too. I would love to see some modern western pistols designed to fire the cartridge...and a speer gold dot hollowpoint for the caliber introduced too.

[Teapot]

If you search the Tokarev on this forum you will find plenty of information on the pistol as well as the round. The design ( based on work by John Moses Browning) is far stronger than the CZ-52 (The Czech army didn't even want to use it and quickly replaced it). Many have simply swapped the barrel out for ones that can fire different calibers such as 9mm or 9x23.
The modern Chinese Tokarevs are much beefier than the older Soviet models. CLARK on this forum believe has done many experiments with 9x23 and 7.62x25 compressed loads with no problem. It is truly a strong design. John Browning didn't design weak firearms.
Take a look at these Hornady bullets atop 5.56 cut down brass. 1450 fps. A fellow on Canadiangunnutz made these rounds. My Czech surplus steel cased bullets travel at 1650fps.

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h155/Teapotteapot/223to762x39_2-1.jpg

[valorius]

I just don't like Tokarevs (I have shot several, i just don't like the ergonomics and i think they're ugly), and i really in general do not like OPFOR weaponry.

I'm a homer i guess. ;)

I was not aware that Mr. Browning had a hand in it's design. That's pretty fascinating.

[Teapot]

Browning was a Genius with firearms.
OPFOR? My nephews play Call of Duty and they talk about OPFOR too.

[valorius]

OPposing FORces.

[Boris bush]

Browning was a Genius with firearms (and a Canadian too).

JMB was born in Utah, been there, been to canada too. Utah is in the USA

http://www.footnote.com/page/94047468_john_moses_browning/

I know everything made in canade is the best. Served with enough to KNOW it. They constantly tell us, over and over and over. Gets old real quick. One thing you NEVER do is call a C7 a M16!!! NEVER! It is NOT a M16! It is a C7, Its BETTER. I heard it so much I almost believe it. Got to the point I called them M16s just to get them all fired up. Was fun.......

[JR47]

Garand was a Canadian, Browning was American.

Browning had NOTHING to do with the Tokarov pistol. They simply stole his design from him.

[bgrav321]

to those who claim 7.62x25 is in the same power class as the 9x19, all you have to do is do a conversion of your tokarev to 9mm and shoot it...you'll feel the total non-same-power classness. I'd rather get shot by a 9mm anyday...although I'd rather not be shot at all...:uhoh:

[valorius]

I think on paper, 9mm+P+ is considerably more powerful than 7.62x25.

[Boris bush]

I shot a crow at about 10 yards with the Privi 85 grain hollowpoint from a CZ52. There was a huge puff of feathers and chunks of flesh all over with wings and a leg hanging around. I never recoverd anything other than a few chards of lead or tiny pieces of copper jacket from any animal.

Proves nothing at all. Wish I could get that close when I have a 9mm and some 1300+ fps 9mm loads on me...

[Teapot]

Boris Bush, my mistaken remark regarding JM Browning (I was thinking about Garand) obviously offended you. My intent was for a little light-hearted banter only.I apologize. As for your bad experience with Canadian soldiers, well, I obviously cannot answer for that. In my Strong Point there is a US Army unit and we all get along well and have more in common than with our ISAF colleagues. Think about the ages of the infanteers you worked alongside and perhaps you will understand their way of thinking.

Back to topic.

Since cartridge companies usually stick to what they know will turn a profit, they are therefore reluctant to introduce unfamiliar products to the consumer. If they were to see a surge in popularity of this old cartridge then they would see potential profit and create more of this ammunition. There is so little being offered now but things may improve. I am hopeful but still plan to reload my own.
I remember seeing an old western movie in which the protagonist used a Mauser Broomhandle pistol in 7.63x25. I had forgotten how old this cartrdidge really was.
Slow and big or speedy and small seem to get the job done in opposite ways.

[Boris bush]

Teapot

That was not a anti-canadian anything in anyway!! They are some well disciplined soldiers. They know what to do and when to do it. I have fought with them. They are my brothers. They just happen to tell you that they have the best everything. It was more of a rib poke. It is kinda hard to read the tone of a post when it is only text infront of you.. Sorry if it came off that way bro!! I have a bunch of canadian patches and a flag that has been worn right along side me and seen some pretty tough stuff. It is in my collection with pride!!

I like the arid CADPT uniform,but never got a set. I collect camo and it would be a great one to add. Infact CADPAT of anykind is the only camo I do not have in my collection.. I got Kiwi, Ausi, and british though....

[valorius]

Teapot, in the US Military it is a long and time honored tradition to rag on the other branches, the other combat arms, and even other units.

Don't take it personal.

"If you ain't mech you ain't spit!" ;)

[Teapot]

Got it. It is hard to read the tone of a post with just the print in front of you. Yeah, I guess all soldiers joke around in the same way. i was just trying to clm the waters in case you were actually upset. I was in the British Army years ago and we used to sit around when we had tasks to do in the barracks and have "slagging matches" or insult matches.
Cadpat is controlled item almost. Our CQ demands it back so that no uniform can find its' way into the bad guys hands. That is the theory anyway. Not that a bunch of Ins could pull anything like that off as we always know where our units are at all times but that goes without saying. I wish I could hook you up with our Cadpat uniform but I cannot even get some for myself.
The 7.62x25 projects a small steel coated pill at fairly high velocity. It probably would not expand on flesh unless it hit a bone. I imagine it would be for hogs if they were hit in a vital spot. I see the pistol and the round as equal to the task of hunting some game. There are now some balistic tipped rounds from Hornady in that caliber; not sure if they are still made but a few years ago I came across some on the net only.


But by now it must be obvious to all that the C-7A2 barrel made from compressed British steel is superior to all others?:D

[Shadow 7D]

Don't take it personally Teapot, I make fun of my sister-in-law. She is British Canadian, and it's fun to get her going about her ehs and abooots, mainly we got to hang with the Aussie's when I was in Iraq, and they made fun of us about the no beer rule, and the fact that US chicks dig their accents which they then made fun of us over the no sex rule...

As for the Canadians, you can really get under their skin when you ask them if they are in a British or US unit, then about the time they turn red, you just apologize and say you didn't realize the Canadians had an army...

If your really want to see a fight, sit all four branches at a bar (coasties fall under the navy for this consideration) Navy and Army almost never side with each other, Marines and the Army generally start swinging first, unless its Air Force and Army or Marines and Navy. Only people the US military fights harder is the enemy. Hell in the Navy you have black shoes and brown shoes, Marines hate everybody, The army you have combat arms vs. POGs, legs vs. Airborne etc.

As for .30 tok, they make AR uppers, sten and some other conversions, that use PPSH mags, and I believe that you can play with a 1911 to get it to take a Tok barrel. Love the round, it's what I take hiking, we have bears and it's only a pistol, and I really ought to take my shotty, but for a pistol, short of some super mag revolver, it's as close to what I'd carry as I have, If anybody has an Automag they are willing to let go for a good price, PM me.

[valorius]

Wow...i'd love to get a 7.62x25mm upper for my AR. I've never seen that chambering offered before!

[Shadow 7D]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBR0AT3ZCGI

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=470718

http://cncgunsparts.com/ar-15_m-16_762x25_uppers

OK
Happy now Val??

[Col. Plink]

OK, so I'd love to get a rundown on modern offerings in 7.62Tokarev: we have the Zastava mentioned above (but unavailable in the US?), The folding-stock semi-auto version of the PPSH on Military Gun Supply, and AR-platform specials. Anything else? Thanks!

[valorius]

Those semi auto PPSh's seem to be gone. They are not listed on the site.

[Shadow 7D]

you can get the zastava, (google them) just not a new one, SOG has them surplus, M57, basicly what the Lux is minus what makes it Lux