[John4me05]

Now i know in general the 308 and 30-06 are the same gun (bullet wise)... Now other than case size why is it that the majority of "accurate" long range shooters use a 308 and not a 06... You get more powder into a 06 and that translates into more speed which should (in theory) mean better trajectory and ballistics... Right????

So why is the 308 so popular

[R.W.Dale]

So why is the 308 so popular

most people really feel as though they must fit in with the rest of the crowd. Because your assessment correct in that as far as long range precision shooting goes there isn't anything that 308 does that 30-06 doesn't do better.


USSR this is your cue!

[Javelin]

Oh Wow. This is a kettle of worms!! Haha. Tons of posts about this I'm sure.

And I will just say this before everyone and their dog chimes in... they are both great calibers. '06 is a little more powerful, .308 is a little less expensive to shoot.

Be Safe.

:)

[dmftoy1]

Lol . tagging this one for future reading . . :)

.308 fits into a short action as well. FWIW.

[R.W.Dale]

I'm sorry but I've never bought into the "my rifle is .75" shorter so it's more better" excuse. If this really were the case we would all be shooting single shots

[John4me05]

Ohh no... Did i say the wrong thing??? :D
This is a serious question if anyone is wondering... Its something i would like to jsut know the answer to if there is one...

[dmftoy1]

Well that 3/4 of an inch is less metal that you're carrying at the end of a long day. Not much, but every little bit helps. It's also easier to reload .308 then .30-06 as you've got more room to get your fingers into the press opening. :) Oh yeah . . and then there's the shorter powder column thing. (think WSM, WSSH, RCM, etc. :) )

Oh yeah . . . try to find mil-surp once-fired 30-06 at Midway. . . :)

I personally have both, and they both shoot fine. I think the only real advantage to the 30-06 (IMHO) is that it shoots heavier bullets a little easier than the .308.

Just my .02

Regards,
Dave

[Jeffreii]

Accuracy has more to do with consistency rather than trajectory. The 308 has less velocity than the '06 but that doesn't mean anything as far as accuracy except in unpredictable windy scenarios where you would rather have the least time of flight.

The most accurate cartridge to date is the 6mm PPC - not the fastest 6mm by far, and obviously not all that powerfull.

Short fat cardidges burn the powder more uniformly, creating a more equal burn shot to shot. A long powder column, such as in an '06, although it has more capacity (though lower pressure!) than the 308, is not anywhere near as accurate.

To put it another way, say a gun shoots real flat - and another like a rainbow. That doesn't really matter in the end (save for above exception) as if you need to aim 5 feet high, so be it. Who cares. As long as the bullets consistantly hit 5 feet below your aim, every time, you're accurate. The flat one, only needs to aim 5 inches, but they are all over the place. See the difference? Fast is not always more accurate, and just about ALL load-ups for the round to be most accurate are not the fastest one, but the most consistent ones. The most accurate cartridge is not one that can push the bullet the fastest - but can push it the most consistent shot to shot. It is not how it compares to anything other than the previous shot that matters. That is all! The trajectory is great, but how it shot relative to the last one, and to the next one relative to current one, that matters.

Replace the concept of accuracy with consistency and it seems to help. The 308 is 2-3 times more accurate than the '06. I have barely shot either, but I can tell just by looking at the case that the 308 would be more accurate.

[R.W.Dale]

Well that 3/4 of an inch is less metal that you're carrying at the end of a long day. Not much, but every little bit helps. It's also easier to reload .308 then .30-06 as you've got more room to get your fingers into the press opening. Oh yeah . . and then there's the shorter powder column thing.

1 If those few ounces actually matter to you I suggest exercising more

2 if you're that much of a butterfingers perhaps reloading isn't for you

3 Opinions the shorter powder column theory range form the highly skeptical to the comical. Handloader magazine did a very informative test on this awhile back.

4 if long range accuracy is your game you won't get very good results using brass from mixed lots that has been fired in god knows what.

try buying once fired .308 brass from Midway:neener: It's not 1998 any more





Replace the concept of accuracy with consistency and it seems to help. The 308 is 2-3 times more accurate than the '06. I have barely shot either, but I can tell just by looking at the case that the 308 would be more accurate.

http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Laughing/laughing-019.gif

GOOD LORD that's funny right there I don't care who you are! I may have found a new quote:neener:

Back to my first posting, see what I mean people are willing to convince themselves of the silliest notions in order to fit in.

[John4me05]

Replace the concept of accuracy with consistency and it seems to help. The 308 is 2-3 times more accurate than the '06. I have barely shot either, but I can tell just by looking at the case that the 308 would be more accurate

But why is that...
I mean the 06 can be loaded to match the velocities of the 308 and they both shoot the same bullet... Now i havent ever EVER messed with the 308... Cant recall if i have ever really seen the ammo... But arent the case the same (i dont have my load book with measurements near me) with the 06 just being longer...

Or is the 06 being longer what your talkin about in a powder column

Now please remember i am still a rook at this so i dont know all the lingo and... Ill never learn nothin if i dont ask...

[neal7250]

Back in the day, when I was a pup in the army, the standard issue weapon, was the M-14 chambered in 7.62X51 (308). There were still sniper rifles 700 Remingtons chambered in 30-06. I have heard, that there are still a few of them in use today.

[The Bushmaster]

I shoot a .30-06 Browning. Why would I want a .308? and as far as weitht is concerned. I'm 5' 7" 145 lbs and I carry an A-bolt and 12 + 4 rounds for the rifle. I carry a S&W Mod 19 2 1/2" barrel and 10 + 6 rounds for it. I carry a Buck fixed blade, a canteen, small roll of TP and a candy bar or two and I don't find the Browning too heavy. Oh yeh...Forgot...I'm 65 too.

[Jeffreii]

But arent the case the same
negative

There is a better edge (relative!) to the older stats as there are better powders for the '06, but the 308 is still more accurate.

You are too confused by speed being the determining factor to accuracy. Just because you push the bullet faster than that same bullet in a slower cartridge does not mean it will be more accurate.

I would not worry too much to the difference unless you are bench shooting or into competition. The 30-06 can be you choice if you want heavier bullets. The lighter ones, the 308 can match, and sometimes EXCEED the 30-06 - remember it is a little higher pressure than the '06, but not much.

You most likely would get a better response in the competition forum than here, although most re loaders know about accuracy too and I am sure all of them know that consistency from shot to shot is what constitutes good accuracy, not the "fastest recipe" around.

It mostly has to do with "which can burn the powder the most uniformly each and every time" and a long column of powder is not good for uniformity. That is why the shorties with way less powder can match a larger case's round with accuracy. Being a bigger case is useless unless there is a perfect powder that can fill it up and not be over pressure. Many times there isn't and a smaller capacity one will be better because there is less empty space or a powder that is more consistent.

a good comparison here:
http://www.snipercountry.com/Articles/AccuracyFacts.asp

although I think the 06 can do a little better now a days with better powders.


As far as which rifle to get - I would focus more on if you want a short action or not, or if you want to shoot heavier bullets or not. Keep in mind that many 06's twist rate isn't all that optimal with heavier bullets (such as 220 grainers). I would rather use a 338 or something if I needed to use such a heavy bullet. I prefer to have things in the "middle" of their capabilities rather than on the extremes. But that is me, and I do have 220 gr solids for 30 cal, so go figure!

[neal7250]

Great response and article Jeff

[Javelin]

Yep can-o-worms has been opened again!

:)

[John4me05]

Jeff... I know about the speed factor.. My 30-06 load is well under max... Actually i think its in the middle (45.5 Varget)... But its deadly accurate in my gun (almost 1/2 MOA at 100yds out of a Savage 110E)... But i am basing my question on
Say both guns are loaded to a perfect load (1/2 MOA at 100 :D)...
Why would a 308 be a better long range choice... I mean ..... People do long range shooting with predominately 308... Now if you can get the same short range accuracy out of a 06.. Have both guns shooting identicle (same bullet but in their respective powder charges and speed that charge makes).. Would a 308 still be better for long range.... Or would the 06 have a edge due to the speed it can carry.. Or would they be the exact same....

I am interested in some sort of competition shooting... And i am wondering if my 06 would be able to hang with the 08s knowing i have the best load possible for MY gun...

[R.W.Dale]

OK if you have 2 rifles that shoot identical .50" 100yd groups one a 308 and one a 30-06 The 06 will always out preform the 308 at longer ranges in terms of wind drift.

With identical projectiles the time in flight will be less for the 30-06. But if you're using a 30-06 you're probably taking advantage of the extra horsepower by shooting a heavier and ballistaclly superior projectile such as the 190grn Sierra matchking.

The 30-06 will have more recoil which could be a concern and there are fewer match grade factory loads then what are offered for 308win. But with carefully assembled handloads in a accurate rifle the 30-06 will always out preform the 308

people often cite 308's mythical accuracy advantage over 30-06 but without being able to test both cartridges in the same rifle it's all just an OPINION! The whole notion that a bullet remembers what numbers were stamped on the casehead is total lunacy

In the same rifle barrel shooting the same quality handloads loaded with the most modern components I challenge anyone to come up with proof that the 308 is more accurate than 30-06


One thing I won't do is hold my breath waiting for this to happen!

[Art Eatman]

When the .308 was first put on the market, it was loaded to a chamber pressure around 55,000 psi. Most factory loads for the '06 were only loaded to about 49,000 psi because of the numbers of older rifles "out there". The muzzle velocities with 150-grain bullets were roughly equal.

The shorter case of the .308 was said to give slightly more consistent burning. The slightly shorter receiver possible due to the shorter case is obviously slightly stiffer, which is believed to promote accuracy. So, a helluva lot of R&D went into the various .308 rifles.

A shorter case does seem to lend itself to reliability in semi- and full-auto weapons.

The '06 is slightly overbore, and works better with longer barrels and slower powders. If loaded to 55,000 psi, it gives some 300 ft/sec more muzzle velocity with a 150-grain bullet than a .308. The advantage is greatest with 180- and 200-grain bullets.

So, in today's world, my opinion is that the '06 is better for a handloader/hunter, and the .308 is maybe better for those who don't handload. Not many factory rifles with 24" to 26" barrels available for the '06.

No big deal, either way...

Art

[Jeffreii]

John4me, I would say that, first off, the speed increase of an 06 compared to a 308 really is marginal, it is not all that much more. In the cases where you really need a quicker moving bullet - so the time of flight is reduced so the bullet would be under the influence of disruption to accuracy (wind a biggie) in long range shots, you would go with a 300 win mag or a 30-378 weatherby. Yeah, they won't be as consistent as a 308, but the decrease in the time the bullet is subject to all of the things that influence external ballistics would outweigh the benefits of internal ballistic advantages. The 06 would not be what you would use in that case of needed shortening of TOF.

The 30-06 is about the best cartridge out there as far as powder preference goes. That is what I like about it - it will have good results with more powders than any other round. The improvement of accuracy with the 308 in comparison is not all that beneficial to a hunter. The ranges they are used in for hunting lower the difference that you really can pick either one. It won't matter much, and most sporting rifles and shooters are more influential on the final outcome of accuracy than the round itself. The OP never stated intended purpose - more info is therefore digressing...

Note all that is more important for competition. Hunting, on the other hand, has more of a job than to just punch a hole in a target. A 308 may not have the power you need at longer ranges, if that is what you want. It ain't going to do you much good if you score a perfect hit but the bullet doesn't have enough energy to do what you want it to do.

[Jeffreii]

ART EASTMAN:

Good comment. That is true to remember that the 308 was intended as being suitable as a machine gun round. Like the 50 BMG are not 'high end' load designs (case capacity vs caliber), but medium. They are meant to shoot one round after the next without over heating/fatiguing the gun. You need a mild/medium round for that. Mediums work the best as they provide enough power to cycle the actions reliably, but low powered enough the gun isn't going to instantly overheat. I think the 308 winchester is about max already (for machine gun use) - I recall m60's having lots of heat problems, though that may be design probs with the m60 itself, especially the barrels. They most likely wouldn't have that handicap if they used, say, a 7.62x39, and perhaps the good ones that don't overheat with the 308's would if they used the 06's. And then there is the controllability side of things....



Yep can-o-worms has been opened again!
Good....let's go fishing - don't let any of them get away

[Jim Watson]

It's in the rules, if you shoot in organized rifle competition.

The .308 qualifies for NRA Service Rifle, Palma, and F-T/R; on the proper platform. You can shoot an M1 in Service Rifle if you want, but .30-06 is not eligible at all for Palma and it would put you into F-Open versus better long range cartridges.

For hunting, a .30-06 loaded to the same chamber pressure has some more power and that might be of more use than a fraction of an MOA, even if the .308 were proven more accurate under range conditions.

[lorddal]

my sniper rifle is a savage 110 e 30-06 and id swear by it

[ArchAngelCD]

In the hands of a real Marksman (read NOT ME!) I would bet a 06 is more accurate than a 308 when using a 175gr MatchKing bullet at 600 + yards.

[YodaVader]

Now other than case size why is it that the majority of "accurate" long range shooters use a 308 and not a 06...

Most precision shooters use a long heavy barrel sniper/varmint style rifle for long range shooting. I can find this type of rifle in .308 from nearly any rifle maker but try finding the same in .30-06.

Remington makes the 700P/700LTR/700SPS Tactical in .308 , their laminated 700VLS in .308 and SPS Varmint - none of those are available in .30-06. All the Savage rifles including their 30" barrel long range rifle , again available in .308 , not in .30-06. Others like Ruger , CZ and Tikka seem to favor the .308 for these types of rifles as well.

Evidently the demand for a .30-06 in this type of rifle is not there. The long action rifles of this type are easily found in .300 Mag. Since many feel the .30-06 is so much better than the .308 then it would only reason that the .300 Mag is much more so than the .30-06 simply due to powder volume.

[dmftoy1]

To me this is a Ford vs Chevy kind of debate but I'll throw out some more that I thought of last night. (not related to the cartridges themselves, but one of the factors that might influence your decision if you're not purely a bolt-action guy)

30-06 - M1 Garand, BM59, BAR (very cool rifles)

.308 - M1 Garand, M1A (M14), FAL, CEMTE, HK91, BAR

It's all what floats your boat. I like 30-06 right now because there's cheap Greek Surplus available and I like to shoot for cheap. Some people are into ultimate accuracy, some people into bullet weight for hunting, etc etc.

If cheap .308 comes back on the market then I'm going to be very tempted to pick up an M1A . . .right now I'm enjoying my Garand. :)

[cracked butt]

The 308 is 2-3 times more accurate than the '06. I have barely shot either, but I can tell just by looking at the case that the 308 would be more accurate.


Another expert edumacated by the intranetz:rolleyes:

[John4me05]

Im gonna have to read all this a few times to completely digest the info...
But in quick reading it seems to be a larger issue of supply and demand (there is minimal supply at best but hardly no demand) and the job at hand (hunting and heat issues)...
But there is good arguements... I may have to try to get me a 308 and try shooting about 200yds groups and see what goes on...

[jerkface11]

The real question is which is more accurate 7.5x55 Swiss or 7.5x54 French?

[Galil5.56]

If bullets are 150 grains and less, ballistics will be very similar especially if you reload. 165 grains and above is where 06 case capacity really shows its virtue.

I reload both, and good loads from either are very, very accurate.

[1911NM]

Quote:
The 308 is 2-3 times more accurate than the '06. I have barely shot either, but I can tell just by looking at the case that the 308 would be more accurate.

Another expert edumacated by the intranetz.

LOL, may have been another case of "hold my beer and watch this". :D

[SlamFire1]

"Now other than case size why is it that the majority of "accurate" long range shooters use a 308 and not a 06.."

So why is the 308 so popular

Back in ancient history, you fired at Highpower match the rounds that fit into the rules and were around, that is 308 and 30-06. In time the 308 dominated Match rifle class, out to 600 yards, because 1) cheap 30-06 match brass went away 2) the 308 kicks less, and 3) many believed the 308 had a slight edge in accuracy. The third point was hard to prove on paper, but theorists were able to make good arguments based on air space within the 30-06. However they were not able to provide a good argument when the 30-06 was used with a powder like 4350 which left very little air space.

Anyway, at 600 and 1000 yards, wind reading ability was the big difference in scores between shooters, not whether they used a 308 or 30-06.

For decades the only good match bullets were in 308, so serious shooters used 308 cartridges. Some stout souls used 300 Win Mags. Which is an excellent long range cartridge, and won many a 1000 yard event. But few people could shoot that cartridge prone before developing a severe flinch.

Then came excellent subcaliber rounds. When bullet makers made match quality and consistent 6 mm and 6.5 mm bullets, the long range competition ran away from the 308 caliber. The sub caliber rounds provide excellent accuracy but more important provide outstanding wind bucking ability. Given same accuracy, the bullet that moves less in the wind will win more matches.

Wind is very unpredictable you see.

[USSR]

The 308 is 2-3 times more accurate than the '06. I have barely shot either, but I can tell just by looking at the case that the 308 would be more accurate.

Hmmm, to paraphrase you: I have barely seen your posts, but i can tell just by looking at them, that you don't know diddly squat.:rolleyes: Sorry to bust your bubble, but in REAL LIFE, accuracy is more a factor of the gunsmith, the rifle, and the man behind the trigger, than it is the length of the case.

Don

[John4me05]

For decades the only good match bullets were in 308, so serious shooters used 308 cartridges.

Just to pick your brain some more... the 06 shoots 308 as well... Do you think it was jsut more because the bullets were sold as 308 on the box they just used the 308 rifle or what...

HEhehe THis is just 1 of lifes mysteries to me i am searching for an answer to...
Ill give it to them the 308 seems (just by seeing them shot.. Havent touched one myself) to kick less...
My Savage gives me a beating after 40 or 50 rounds... But if i were dumb (kinda like i am) i would choose the 06 simply based on velocity standpoint... I know that speed and weight will lead to better ballistics, less wind drift, and just overall better performance...

Wish i knew someone with a Savage 110E in 308 that i could load up Varget for so all variables would be the same (try to get the best accuracy and do my best to match the speeds) just to see if there realy is a difference...


I mean i could do a head to head but without the same platform (gun, bullet weight, speed, etc) there are too many open arguements for why 1 was performing better than the other..

[rcmodel]

In time the 308 dominated Match rifle class, out to 600 yards, because#1 = Because that is what the service AMU M-14 Match rifles were chambered for, and that was the standard military round at the time.

Had M-14's been chambered for 30-06, that's what all the accuracy developements by the service AMU Teams would have been centered around.
Not the .308!

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j219/rcmodel/KTOG/1224.gif
rcmodel

[Vern Humphrey]

The .308 is the standard military sniper cartridge and a lot of work has been put into it. For long range target work, the M14 and M1A have supplanted the Garand. And the .308 fulfils the major criteria of long range target shooting -- it doesn't fall below the speed of sound before it reaches the target (that's a killer factor in accuracy, passing "backward" through the sonic barrier.)

So the .308 is as good as the .30-06 for target and long range work.

Having said that, there are a lot of old .30-06 bull guns out there with glass smooth actions from firing tens of thousands of rounds and burning out a few barrels in the process. They work just fine in the Palma Match (1,000 yards.)

[John4me05]

Does anyone know if the rifling twist has alot to do with it now a days...
Doesn anyone know how much twist i have in my stock 110E Savage...

My first question is more of do manufacturers use a given amount of twist across the gambit of rifles in a specific caliber or does each one use their own "secret" recipe...

[John4me05]

I know barrel length has alot to do with accuracy too... Just from shooting muzzleloaders... Lots of difference in range and accuracy with different twist rates and barrel lengths...

[Jeffreii]

Seems many readers are having problems with one of my posts, especially because I stated "I barely shot either" in it. That is because my conclusion was not based on personal experience but on physics and similarities to cartridges of known good accuracy design. I apologize for being vague or coming across in a way that I was not trying to. Nor was I trying to knock the excellent 30-06 cartridge, which believe me or not is one of my favorites.

First, obviously the cartridge itself is quite down on the list as far as accuracy goes. The shooter is quite high on that list. Others stated that, and that is true. But the OP isn't talking about other variables so I did not include them, even though they are obviously in the equation and even a more significant part of it. Second, I don't intend on knocking the 06. I love both of them, and the 06 seems much better for hunting than the 308 if you want to use heavier bullets. The 308 is best with lighter ones than may not be what a hunter is preferring to use. Although a lot of this is because the 308's tend to have 1:12 twists, the 06's 1:10. 1:10 is nicer for the heavier bullets (like 200 gr).

If you spend any time at all looking through various books (such as reloading manuals) they describe the cartridges, you can see their performances, and see how they are designed. It does not take too much to see certain designs are more efficient than others. It does not take much to see certain traits in cartridge design that effect its performance. Based on all of the new craze of shorter powder columns but same powder capacity yield much better results. The 6PPC is extremely accurate, and most cases that closely resemble it are accurate too. If you read on why that cartridge is the worlds most accurate, you understand things that work better in a cartridge, and I was stating that there were more of those characteristics in a 308 than a 06. Shooting either was irrelevant.

Also, don't take it that I know a lot. I don't. No one does other than God. The more you know, the more you know that you don't know. I do try to understand the "why" in things where I lot of people don't, even more don't even care. I am interested a lot more in the ballistics and physics than the actual "shooting" - the shooting is just a verification. It is too costly to go and design by trial and error, and if you know enough about what you are doing (I sure don't) you do not need to.

Perhaps I was a little mis-lead to state the above, however I have yet ran into anyone that gets better accuracy out of an 06 than a 308, that have isolated out as neutral all the other parts to the equation and boiled it down to the cartridge itself. You find those types who do so at bench rest shooting competitions/matches - and I will trust that if everyone hits better with the 308 compared to the 06, it must be a more accurate cartridge. It has nothing to do with the so-called "intranetz." Don't even know such a word, but then again I don't study much slang or have found a need to.

The bottom line is that unless one is into isolating out all other variables in the equation of absolute accuracy, either will do and can be chosen by simple preference of action type/size and bullet weight utilization or economics. It simply does not matter if the other factors are not addressed - and unless you are competition shooting it won't make a difference as the other factors are more influential. If all else fails, flip a coin.

[R.W.Dale]

From reading some of the comments expounding on the imagined superiority of the 308 I think I may have discovered the ULTIMATE 1000yd 30caliber rifle cartridge

7.62x39

Yes the little russian is obviously superior to 308 in all aspects related to long range shooting:neener:

1. Since the shorter the powder column the more accurate the cartrige the x39 beats the pants off 308 in this respect

2. It's been clearly stated that a bullets velocity and ballistic coefficient is irrevelant in distance shooting the x39 matches the 308 in this category

3. Short actions being vastly better than longer ones means that a 7.62x39 in a mini mauser is 84.6% mo better than a 308 in a STD short action

4. Since only a few super men can handle 30-06'es recoil and 308 is all the average operator can handle 7.62x39 can be fired accurately out to 800yds by the average 4 year old

By extrapolations based on Jeffreii's expert calculations I come up with the following.

The 308 is 2-3 times more accurate than the '06

308win is 11mm shorter than 30-06 and is on average 2.5 times more accurate. So with the 7.62x39 being a full 12mm shorter than 308 that means the little russian round is about 2.6x more accurate than that.

So by my calculations the 7.62x39 is 74.8% more accurate than the OL 06 and 40% better than 308. That means the largest group you'll ever see fired from a x39 will measure no more than .253 MOA

Besides the 7.62x39 looks more accurate than 308:neener:

[taliv]

while I'll grant that the 30-06 has a ballistic/wind advantage, I'll take the 308win any day.

1. go to a precision shooting class. If anyone has experienced something different, pipe up, but I'll wager there were at least 80/20% 308/'06 shooters, maybe 90/10. My observation: Lunch on TD1, 308win shooters are gathered with the instructor soaking up info. '06 shooters are somewhere with "that guy" who brought the 300winmag trying to buy extra shoulder pads.

you can shoot 308 a lot, and practice (especially in the wind) is so much more important than the extra 300fps and a bit higher BC bullet.

2. handloads are just flat hard to cock up. (just about any decent bullet and powder combination will give good results.) it's very forgiving and easy to reload.

3. it's a lot less expensive for quality components. e.g. prices for lapua 308 vs 30-06 brass


Personally, I prefer any number of 6mm and 6.5mm (or even 7mm) cartridges to the 308win, and I prefer any number of 30/338 cal magnum cartridges to the 30-06. So, the only use I have for the 308win is in a Stoner SR-25 semi-auto, and I have no use whatsoever for any 30-06.

[USSR]

krochus,

I'll see your 7.62x39, and raise you my 7.62x33 (M1 Carbine).:D

Jeffreii,

Seems many readers are having problems with one of my posts, especially because I stated "I barely shot either" in it. That is because my conclusion was not based on personal experience but on physics and similarities to cartridges of known good accuracy design.

Yeah, if you stop and think about it, your post professing some kind of "inherent" knowledge about something that you readily admit you have no real personal experience with, might tend to "rankle" a few people who have many years of real experience with both cartridges.

Also, don't take it that I know a lot. I don't. No one does other than God. The more you know, the more you know that you don't know. I do try to understand the "why" in things where I lot of people don't, even more don't even care. I am interested a lot more in the ballistics and physics than the actual "shooting" - the shooting is just a verification. It is too costly to go and design by trial and error, and if you know enough about what you are doing (I sure don't) you do not need to.

Well, Yes, God knows, and there are a few people on this site that know as well, from personal experience. And by personal experience, I don't mean "looking through various books" or simply regurgitating what you find by Googling a subject, but rather the "actual shooting" part that you seem to disdain. So, essentially what I am saying is, if you want to learn, then it is far better to ask questions and submit yourself to years of load development and actual shooting, rather than to hypothesize about a subject that you know little to nothing about.

Don

[R.W.Dale]

krochus,

I'll see your 7.62x39, and raise you my 7.62x33 (M1 Carbine).


Won't work! you must understand that it HAS to be a short fat case, short and skinny offers nowhere near the aesthetic accuracy potental.

[taliv]

sounds like what you're looking for is a 45ACP necked down

[USSR]

sounds like what you're looking for is a 45ACP necked down

Ah, taliv, you might be on to something. Suggest you call it the .308SFU (Short, Fat, Ugly).:D

Don

[strat81]

OK, in all seriousness, if we do go the shorter route...

What about .30 TC? Or is it too new to have any track record?

As for the .308... http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=4051737&postcount=40

[Vern Humphrey]

Does anyone know if the rifling twist has alot to do with it now a days...
Doesn anyone know how much twist i have in my stock 110E Savage...

My first question is more of do manufacturers use a given amount of twist across the gambit of rifles in a specific caliber or does each one use their own "secret" recipe...
By-and-large, rifling twist is standard for each cartridge. There are exceptions -- for example, you can get fast or slow twist barrels in .223 -- the former intended to shoot extra long and heavy bullets.

If you want to know the twist on your rifle, put a tape flag on you cleaning rod, and slowly push a patched jag down the bore. The flag will rotate as the rifling grips the patched jag and you continue to push it down the bore. When it makes one complete rotation, measure the amount the rod has entered the bore, and that's your twist rate. For example, if the flag makes a complete rotation in a foot of travel, you have a 1 in 12 twist.

[John4me05]

If you want to know the twist on your rifle, put a tape flag on you cleaning rod, and slowly push a patched jag down the bore. The flag will rotate as the rifling grips the patched jag and you continue to push it down the bore. When it makes one complete rotation, measure the amount the rod has entered the bore, and that's your twist rate. For example, if the flag makes a complete rotation in a foot of travel, you have a 1 in 12 twist.
Thanks for the info...