[tackleberry45]

I figured it was time for this. For the record I have fired/ ownded the Seecamps in .32 and .380, Kel-Tecs in .32 and .380, NAA Minis in .22. Then I thought for a slight penalty in size I could go to 9MM. Hence the Walther and Kahr. Here are the respective pics:

http://www1.snapfish.com/slideshow/AlbumID=208105359/PictureID=4393186213/a=98532391_98532391/t_=98532391

http://www1.snapfish.com/slideshow/AlbumID=208105359/PictureID=4393186213/a=98532391_98532391/t_=98532391

http://www1.snapfish.com/slideshow/AlbumID=208105359/PictureID=4393186213/a=98532391_98532391/t_=98532391

I sure hope those images come out right. Now the fun stuff:

I went to the range with the understanding that these are not range guns. They are self-defense pistols. I kept all shots under 30' and my doubltap/ rapid-fire to 15 - 21'. The PPS is very pointable, sort of Smith M&P - ish. The Kahr tended to be all over the place. It took about 100 rounds to get comfortable with the PM9. The following was the diet:

WWB 115 FMJ
AE 115 FMJ
PMC 115
Black Hills 124 +p
Hornady 124 +p
Win Silvertip 115
Remmy 124

Total = 400 rounds

I experienced no FTF or FTE. One note on this... I'd already gone thorugh the recommneded 200 round break in for the Kahr.

Notables:

Twice the Kahr did not like a slide (slingshot or tactical rack, whatever you want to call it)rack. I had to use the slide release. One time the Kahr failed to go into battery. A quick slapped fixed that.


I grouped the PPS much better.....4 - 5 " groups, trying to keep the shots in the 8 ring. I was NOT shooting for accuracy but for "Oh man I need to fire" as I believe these little guys would be for. The ergos of the PPS are MUCH better with or withouit the extended mags.

The Kahr is also a good pistol, but for me the PPS shot better. I found it hard to get a solid feel for the Kahr during a set of rapid fire drills. With +p loads the backstrap printed a nice checkered pattern on my hand also, not painful just there.

In summation my preference in the PPS. The Kahr is about 4 ounces lighter and slightly shorter so it would have a slight edge in concealability. Neither pistol printed badly in the lower pocket of any cargo shorts I have

[jdjohnston]

Thanks for the comparison. I just picked up the Pm9 this weekend. Didn't compare it to the Walther. Looking forward to putting the 200 rounds through it.

[grimjaw]

The Kahr subcompacts, with such short sight radius, small grips and long triggers, are very susceptible to poor shooting form. I have to fight myself not to squeeze the grip, only the trigger, when shooting the PM9. But from a rest it will do respectable groups.

jm

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1119/1432012252_f8597e1d79.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/grimjaw/1432012252/)

[tackleberry45]

Another note...the trigger of the Kahr was mushy and took getting used to.

[romma]

I like my Kahr... It is accurate and small and has the power on the days I feel the need to carry it as opposed to my Keltec or PPK/S...

[DAdams]

TB, thanks for your impressions on the PM9 vs Walther PPS.

Iv'e had a PM 9 for over a year and following one trip back to Kahr for some parts replacements it is now a fine shooter. The trigger reminds me a bit of the LEM on a HK, just not as long.

I checked out a PPS last week. I didn't care for the ergonomics. Rather "blockish" looking and not that comfy for me.

Where do you shoot in the Tampa Bay Area?

[tackleberry45]

Knight Shooting Sports in Clearwater mostly.

[dewidmt]

FWIW, Kahr recommends that their pistols only be reloaded from slide lock by using the slide lock release. I think it's because they are a bit tight and the power of the recoil spring is needed for slapping the slide back into battery. My PM9 also has problems with reloading using the slingshot technique, so I just hit the release nowadays.

[tackleberry45]

http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii33/sjbellan/walther/PPSvsPM9001.jpg
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii33/sjbellan/walther/PPSvsPM9002.jpg
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii33/sjbellan/walther/PPSvsPM9003.jpg

[tackleberry45]

Finally above see the blown up Pics and the attached

http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii33/sjbellan/walther/PPSvsPM9001.jpg

[tackleberry45]

More Pictures
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii33/sjbellan/walther/PPSvsPM9004.jpg
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii33/sjbellan/walther/PPSvsPM9003.jpg
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii33/sjbellan/walther/PPSvsPM9002.jpg

[BBsteel]

Excellent pics...thanks!

The PPS will be making it home with me this spring.

[Soybomb]

Do you consider them both equally suited to riding in the front pocket of jeans? I'm thinking about the pps but it just seems like it might be a bit too big for jeans.

[Bob79]

From what I've read the PM9 is much better suited for front pocket carry. It weighs about 18-19ozs fully loaded, where the PPS is about 25-26 ozs fully loaded. Also the PM9 is smaller in pretty much every dimension. The PPS probably compares more in size/weight to a Kahr CW9 or P9.

[tackleberry45]

The nod goes to the PM9 in jeans with a caveat - the slide release can be uncomfortable. In the lower pocket of several cargo shorts I own either one barely printed.

[PX15]

Whatever floats your boat...

But I loves 'me PPS..

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a73/Laserlips/100_7990.jpg

And my LSW32... :D

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a73/Laserlips/100_8006.jpg

Just personal opinion..

J.Pomeroy

[tackleberry45]

There were no issues putting shots into 5" or so groups with the PM9 either. It just took some time adjusting to the grip

[PX15]

FWIW:

I think the PM9 has more potential as a "pocket gun", whereas the PPS is really best suited to IWB carry.

But even as a "pocket carry gun" it "would seem" the PM9 is pretty much at the upper end of what is practical for such carry.

I think a person shopping for a pistol in this general size should (if possible) give both pistols a try, then get the one that fit's their needs best.

Best Wishes,

JP

[ashtxsniper]

The kahr pistols feel better and conceal better that the PPS. I don't like the mag release on the PPS either. I guess S&W manufacture the PPS since the slide is marked S&W on the model I held.

[Constantine-p89]

The Kahr's look real nice but they cant seem to beat Glock's price.

[ashtxsniper]

The PPS's are pretty pricey to.

[PX15]

ashtxsniper:

Smith & Wesson does NOT manufacture the PPS.. (Nor the P99's either). Smith & Wesson is merely the IMPORTER of the Walthers and every firearm imported into the US has to have the importers mark on it someplace.

Smith & Wesson DOES do the Warranty/Customer Service on both the PPS and P99 series of Walthers. (And excellent service it is from what I hear).

Smith & Wesson DOES manufacture PPK's, and I believe I'm correct in saying the PPK is now advertised as the "Smith & Wesson PPK" (vs the Walther PPK).

I believe in times past the Walthers were imported by "Walther of America", or it might have been "Interarms".. Not sure.

I think part of the confusion lies in that S&W DID make the fine SW99, which was basically a Walther P99/AS but with S&W slide and barrel. That, plus the S&W logo on the right front of the P99's and PPS's would lead you to believe they are the manufacturer of those pistols too, but it's not so.

If you see German proof marks on a pistol you can bet it's made in Germany..

Best Wishes,

J.Pomeroy

[NeverAgain26]

Has anyone ever had or heard of reliability issues with Walthers? I know the PPS is new but has anyone heard anything about reliability on Walthers in general and specifically the PPS? Or is it too new/too soon to say? Thanks.

NA26

[Caipirinha]

NeverAgain,

There's been some early reports of PPS's having their slides locking back and getting stuck there. I haven't followed up on the issue in a few weeks but you might to check out the Walther forums if you're interested.

[tackleberry45]

Stay tuned..another 200 - 300 is going down range this weekend in the PPS.

[John Crew]

Hello all! I went to my favorite gunstore the other day to purchase a PM9 and instead ended up walking out with the PPS. I chose the PPS because it felt a little more comfortable in my hands. Since then I have put about 600 rounds through it (mixed range ammo) and have had no issues thus far. Having shot both guns I went with PPS soley because It shot relatively straight for me right out of the box without any getting used to. I understand that all shooters are different, the PPS just gave me a better fit from the start. I still like the PM's though, and might be getting one in the future. Oh yeah, get the extended grip.. It will make the pps feel much better in your hands.

If in the market for these two guns I would ask to test each one and go with the one that works best for you with minimal "getting used to". They are both excellent guns, from excellent companies so you can feel good about purchasing any of the two.


regards,

John

[John Crew]

Oh yeah, I almost forgot. My only issue that I am having with the PPS.

I am still getting used to the magazine release position of the PPS. They made it a part of the trigger gaurd. Sort of like a Hk USP but longer. I always go for the buttom wich most of my other guns have closer to the grip. This is something I will have to master before I begin concealing this weapon. I hope my comments help.


See you at the range!

[jlh26oo]

O.K. Thanks for the update John.

A bump for this great picture comparison thread with kahr and pps. I have a PM9, but these P.P.S.'s are looking better and better. Every time I look back at Kahr for a belt gun, I always want to turn to the steel models. I'm not excited about modular backstraps (much less that can lock it out), magazine extention grips, what else- mag disconnect or no? Anyways I still want one for a thin light .40sw of Walther quality, and those parts I don't like O.T.T. no hexagonal rifling, look to be very well executed (I.E. mag grip extensions are not just a bulb afterthought at the end of the mag but an interlocking true to form extension of the frame, so it looks good. The interchagneable backstraps blend in very well too.

B.T.W. anyone know if the 9mm and .40sw versions have identical slide and frame widths?

[agksimon]

I traded in my Kahr PM9 for the Walther PPS for the very reasons as the other poster mentioned, far better accuracy, much better trigger and sights.
As for pocket carry, Cabela's sells 7 pocket hiker pants with bellows pockets. Search at their site will turn them up. Coupled with a FIST pocket holster, the gun is invisible and carries well.