[Jadd]

So I have this little S&W mod 60 J frame, with a short 2 inch barrel. While I do reload rifle rounds, I have never reloaded a handgun round b4. In my Lyman manual and an old Speers book, it list the Bullseye powder as a faster burn rate than say Unique. My question is with a shorter barrel, would it be more beneficial to use the faster burning powder? I will be loading Hornady 125gr JHP's to start. Any suggestions?

[Oro]

The powder burn rate isn't gong to get you a faster velocity in relation to barrel length. the powder burn rate does affect velocity, but that's all determined as the bullet leaves the cartridge and the barrel does it's thing.

I just load the same loads I use in 4" guns (I have a 60, also). I do use a fast powder (WST), but that's because it works well in a couple different platforms I reload (.45, too), not because of the short barrel length.

[jeepmor]

I asked this question regarding short barrels a month or two ago. Fast powders were recommended for the best velocities out of short barrels. Bullseye was mentioned as were other manufacturers equivalents. Be careful reloading fast powders, they are usually capable of double charges without spilling any powder, sometimes triple charges in the case of the 38 casing per other THR members.

It does make for a lot of loaded rounds though, good economical powder in my experience in 9mm and 45ACP. Lots of rounds per pound compared to others like Unique.

[shu]

Here's my take on that, Jadd. (I am not a certified expert, but have been reloading for about 8 years, mostly handguns of several calibers, always in search of the perfect trinity of fast, medium, and slow powders.)

The consensus seems to be that the faster velocity always comes from the slowest burning powder. Also, with smokeless powder combustion efficiency increases with pressure of the reaction. The maximum velocity therefore might be with a slower powder, but it would take a large load and would be a dirty burn.

Moreover, other factors become limiting with the low design pressure of the 38spl cartridge and the J frame (at least my M-36, for which +P are not recommended).

My Speer #13 manual lists loads for only 110gr and 125gr jacketed bullets, with only one charge named for each listed powder. That is, the maximum charge (limited by pressure) is also the minimum charge (with cautions about bullet getting stuck in barrel). However Speer must also the longest barrel 38spl handgun likely to be found, so the spudded round should not be a problem in a 2 inch barrel.

If you have the 125gr JHP and the Unique, then that's a reasonable combination. Speer #13 says 5.7 gr, yielding 980 fps. (For Bullseye, 4.5 gr, yielding 914fps.)

Personally, I do full wadcutters in 38spl, for a variety of reasons. Lead has less friction in the barrel than copper, allowing a range of powder charge weights without exceeding max pressure. You are not going to get above 1000 fps with jacketed bullets (without exceeding max pressure) so why not go with lead (since leading is not a problem below about 1000 fps).

Jacketed bullets may not expand at the slow velocity. Consensus seems to be that 148gr full wadcutters are acceptable effective against critters small and large (varmints and self defense) to the extent possible with the 38spl.

The full wadcutter reduces the large void area otherwise present in the 38spl case (which was designed in the black powder era). Presently I am working through some Oregon Trail hardcast double base wadcutters, which I seat with about 1/16 inch protruding and just enough 'crimp' to roll the seating bell back to smooth - that is, no crimp at all. Previously I had used swaged softer lead wadcutters, seated fully into the case with a bit of a roll over the top.

Bullseye - just a little dab'll do ya; 2.7 to 3.0 grains. No reason to beat yr hand up shooting that J frame.

- shu

[beachjumper]

Does anyone know the theory behind Speer's "short barrel" ammo? Is it a combination of bullet design and powder formulation? I carry the Gold Dot 135 gr. +p short barrel in my S&W 360PD which has a barrel length of just under 2". Interestingly, S&W has stamped "no less than 120 gr. bullet" on the barrel.

[strat81]

How (not) to load a .38.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98I1i8Toj8E

[Roccobro]

Beach jumper- There is a user or two here that have done extensive testing to mimic the new +p short barrel ammunition. Unfortunately THR search engine is revolting and has been doing nothing for me for almost 2 weeks now. :(

Hopefully somebody will jump in with a link to those threads.

Justin

[beachjumper]

Thanks. I had the same problem.

[strat81]

Try google for your searches...
"short barrel load data site:thehighroad.org" yield 1,610 hits.

[ArchAngelCD]

I have been testing Longshot, Powder Pistol, AA #5 and HS-6 for my short barrel rounds. I'm trying to replicate Speer's 135gr .38 Special +P Short Barrel SD ammo. I've found that 6.8gr Powder Pistol work very well and feels most like the Gold Dot round and has close to the velocity of the Factory round too. You might want to give 6.4gr AA #5 a try too. It's also close to the .38 Special +P round Speer puts out.

8.8gr PP most closely replicates the Speer 135gr .357 Magnum Short Barrel round IMO.

HS-6 seems to work very well with 158gr LSWC/HP rounds for replicating the FBI round.

I assume no responsibility for the use of this data. Use it at your own risk.

[jfh]

strat81 gave the right advice--e.g., use google and search this forum.

Several of us have discussed this topic many times, with in-depth commentary available from posters such as ArchAngelCD and me on short-barrel loads built to the Speer 38+P specifications.

ArchAngelCD gave you a general scope to replicate such ammo. I have recently posted comments about these reloads in the M&P340 thread as well.

Speer has designed their SB (Short Barrel) JHPs to operate well between about 850 and 1050 fps. So, it's a good bullet to work with--and many of us find the 38+P / 135-gr load matches up nicely with the lightweight guns.

ADDENDUM: Speer 14--the latest--has several workups specifically for Short Barrel loads in both 38+P and 357 Magnum. These workups include the data from the PDF files they once posted on their site and now new tests as well. If one combines the information in Speer 14 with knowledge gleaned out of Speer 11 and finally uses some of the information from the discussions here, I think you'll have a good basis for sorting out short-barrel loads.

Jim H.

[Jadd]

I will look into the wadcutters, and lead bullets. Like the video BTW! I will try a few different types to see how the punch on paper, but I have 2 basic loads I want to make, one a lighter load for targets, and practice. And another for SD for carrying. How much is the ballistics gel and where can I find it? It would be nice to see how they expand after hitting clothing and into tissue. U have been just using old phone books, but thats has been only with flat nose FMJ's I haven't shot any HP's into a phone book yet. Thanks for all the responses BTW!! Thats awesome!

[beachjumper]

The only reason I brought up the Speer question is cost. I read many forum discussions about this round when it first came out and looked at Speeer's site for penertration and expansion information and decided it would be a good carry round for my snub. I bought two boxes, tried them out and was happy with the results. I then bought 10 boxes [200 rounds] which cost me about 85 cents a round about 18 months ago. I'm wondering if an experienced reloaded, which I'm not , can role his own reliable Speer clones at a reasonable cost to compare with Speer's advantage of the economy of scale.
Joe

[Mr.Revolverguy]

Beachjumper,

There also has been many discussions about carrying reloads for self defense, I would not do it. Based on advise from my sister who happens to be a lawyer. She printed some cases for me to show me why it would not be a good idea. It is very debateable if the tactics that lawyers use even in proven self defense cases are on the up and up or not but if they do not get you there you are just about sure to loose a civil suit. So please research it. I keep a couple of boxes of factory ammo around for self defense and home defense. If the SHTF per say the first thing on my mind would be survival and I know my reloads is up to the task.

Having said that I have found loads for my snubbies that unless someone can show me different I will never change. It happens to be very accurate for me with very little variation. That load is

38special
4.0grains Titegroup
140grain Winchester Hollow Point
Please use this site to work up your own loads using hodgdon powders such as titegroup. http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp

This is a regular 38 special load not 38+P. I get 849 FPS out of this load which I know velocity is only part of the equation when talking about performance. This load burns very clean for me but what is most important is the accurracy and I am very excited about it. I tried HS-6 a few months ago and still have some of those rounds left to burn off. HS-6 was ok but variation was to great and I suspect that is why out of 5 shots at 12 yards the best I could do when shooting from sand bags was 3 shots in a tight group and 2 flyers. Now I say 2 flyers but the groups were still on a pie plate from 12 yards that measured about 3 inches. With the titegroup powder from a sand bag rest all 5 shots at 12 yards are just about touching.

I have not tried titegroup in 45ACp yet but I have been so impressed with it that platform will be my next try. Currently I use trailboss for 45 and it works great. The smell of it just bothers me, trail boss has a distinct smell that smells close to something like ammonia to me.

[jfh]

"...I'm wondering if an experienced reloaded, which I'm not , can role his own reliable Speer clones at a reasonable cost to compare with Speer's advantage of the economy of scale...."

'Replica reloading' is exactly what ArchAngelCD and I (and some others) have pursued for the last eight months. Use the google search on this forum to find out more; I'm not going to re-type all that information again. Here's a summary.

Note that all this data is for 2" barrel revolvers--it is NOT based on 4-6-8" barrels, or from the (Hodgdon) 10" pressure test barrel.

Using AA#5, a 140LTC bullet, and recipes for both 38+P and for 357 Magnum cases, one can build rounds that replicate the Speer 38+P round in both "feel" and ballistics. My current cost (I stocked up on 140LTC bullets at about $45.00 / M) to build that load is about ten to twelve cents a round.

That cost includes a 1.5 cent amortization for case use, too. In sum, 2.50 worth of components and a bit of your time (I can reload these on my turret at about 180 / hour, or on my progressive at about 400 per hour) will replace $20.00 worth of the factory ammo, and is every bit as good.

You can also replicate the factory round by simply using the Speer SB135JHP bullet--but those cost about 20 cents each, not five-six cents each for the LTCs. Boxes of 100 are available through many components resellers.

Those of you with the 38 Special frames should know that the Speer recipes use 20,000 as the pressure MAX for these loads--they definitely are true +P loads, going beyond the new / current SAAMI +P spec of 18,500. I've also tested them into the +P+ range in my 357 (M&P340, 640) frames, and I have no issues with them in those guns. Further, for those of you with magnum-framed pistols, the 'translation' of the 38+P spec. into a 357 case affords one a larger safety factor as well as easier cleaning issues--no crud ring.

To get them tweaked into your particular gun, you do need to do chrono tests--but careful evaluation of the "subjective recoil" characteristics of the speer recipes can get you close enough: I didn't get out the chrono until I had shot about 1,500-2,000 rounds of the 38+P recipes and started on the 357 Magnum 'translations' for the 38+P ballistics.

Finally, once you sort out the recipe for your particular gun, you can now back up the load as needed to build lighter-recoiling rounds for acclimation to better / faster SD shooting scenarios.

Use that search function, or look up my posts on this subject.

I will also mention that the wintertime reloading projects now include building loads using the (Speer) 158-gr LSWC-HP bullet, to see how far one can go to replicating the fabled "FBI load." That recipe is definitely into the +P+ range for 38 Special, however, from what research I have done so far. I'll be content to get it running at 850 fps, I think.
Jim H.

[beachjumper]

Thanks for that information fellows. I would never attempt to reload my carry rounds; I just don't have the proper experience to do so and would not feel confident enough to carry those reloaded rounds. I did try to search this forum for your type of input jfh but I could not get anything; either the search engine is down or I'm not doing it right. However, you did give me a good idea of the cost factor. Even using the most expensive components, one can save a ton of money if they wanted to reload a round with the same ballistic characteristics as the Speer short barrel for practce but not to use as a carry round.
Joe

[SlamFire1]

I have used Bullseye in the 38 Special for over ten years. Works very well and shoots very well in this cartridge.

Your snubbie may be sighted in for 158 grain bullets, or 125 grain bullets. My late model Airweights shoot to POI with 125 grain bullets.

Anyway, attached is data with 158 and 125 grain bullets, fired in the same Airweight. Two different primers with one load, no significant difference over the screens. The 158 grain load is just outstanding, I would recommend the 4.0 grs Bullseye with the 125 grain bullet.


S&W 38 Spl Airweight 2" barrel

158 LRN 3.5 grs Bullseye WSP Mixed cases
6-Apr-07 T = 48 °F
Ave Vel =679
Std Dev =16.48
ES 56.11
High 698.2
Low 642
N = 18

125 Lead BBRNFP 4.0 grs Bullseye Lot BE 532 Mixed cases CCI 500
6-Apr-07 T = 48 °F
Ave Vel =763.9
Std Dev =22
ES 78
High 806.5
Low 728.5
N = 15
Point aim OK

125 Lead BBRNFP 4.0 grs Bullseye Mixed cases WSP
9-Apr-06 T = 59 °F
Ave Vel =760.4
Std Dev =27.33
ES = 82.1
High = 798.9
Low = 716.8
N = 19


125 Lead BBRNFP 4.5 grs Bullseye Mixed cases WSP
9-Apr-06 T = 64 °F
Ave Vel = 827.9
Std Dev = 23.21
ES = 92.27
High = 879.4
Low = 787.1
N = 20

[beachjumper]

I apoligize for asking for infomation that had already been posted here. It seems I was using the search engine here incorrectly. When I searched "speer short barrel" I got nothing but when I changed the search to "speer 38+ short" I received what jfh and others were referring to. Thanks for your understanding.
Joe

[ArchAngelCD]

I would never attempt to reload my carry rounds; I just don't have the proper experience to do so and would not feel confident enough to carry those reloaded rounds.
beachjumper,
I'm not using the rounds I make for carry rounds because of possible legal problems that it might cause. I'm trying to replicate the carry rounds so I can practice with ammo that feels and acts like my factory carry ammo so I can practice without going broke. I can afford to blow off 100 rounds when they cost $10 to make but I can't do that when they cost 10X that at $21/20 rounds.

[jfh]

Joe: There is absolutely no reason to apologize for questions asked in your search for information.

And, once you feel more confident in your reloading skills and expertise in this funky little niche, I hope you'll contribute to the common knowledge.

Meanwhile, ArchAngelCD's comment about the economics is the most important thing to note about this kind of reloading. We all know shooting these short j-frames is demanding; the more practice we can do (and afford to do), the better.

Jim H.

[Jadd]

I never thought about possible legal consequences of a hand load for SD. Thats something I should look up. Those damn lawyers can twist anything around and find a away to stick it to ya...

[Sam1911]

I never thought about possible legal consequences of a hand load for SD. Thats something I should look up. Those damn lawyers can twist anything around and find a away to stick it to ya...

Do as search on this topic and this forum (others as well) and you'll probably find that 80% of respondents worry about the legal issues of carrying reloads, but no one can ever cite one self-defense case where it was even mentioned, let alone became a deciding issue.

It is easy to become worried about this because "everyone" says to worry about it. It is also darned near impossible to see any actual precedent for those worries.

Good luck!

-Sam

[SlamFire1]

Do as search on this topic and this forum (others as well) and you'll probably find that 80% of respondents worry about the legal issues of carrying reloads, but no one can ever cite one self-defense case where it was even mentioned, let alone became a deciding issue.

It is easy to become worried about this because "everyone" says to worry about it. It is also darned near impossible to see any actual precedent for those worries.

I cannot remember when, but the first time I read advice to only use factory loads for self defense came from Masaad Ayoob in a American Handgunner article.

Masaad has been used as a firearms expert in many a self defense case. His written experiences are shrill with frustration after dealing with anti gun Public Defense Lawyers. In many insistences these liberal ideologues are attempting to further their careers by sending gun owners to jail who legitimately defended themselves. These liberal lawyers do everything to make the gun owner appear as a “mad dog killer”. Using reloads in a self defense case just gives them more ammunition (ha!) to convince a jury of idiots that the “mad dog killer” was trolling for innocents to murder.

And you can read about these things in the magazine.

"Justice is only of contention for equals in power, the strong do what they can, the weak suffer what they must. " Thucydides

[beachjumper]

As a retired "damn lawyer", the only legal problems I would worry about is whether the shooting or gun presentation was justified.:)
My biggest concern on carrying reloads would be to hear a click rather than a bang at crunch time. My aim[npi] is to duplicate the felt recoil and POA/POI of the three carry rounds I use now so that I can afford to practice much more than I do. Of course some ammunition company will come out with a "must have" defensive round and I'll have to start all over again.
Thanks again for your help.

[Clark]

When I started handloading, I worked up some hot loads for a Model 60 J frame 38sp.

I strapped it down, sat behind a concrete wall and pulled the trigger string.

The recoil caused the revolver to break free, and I saw it come flying past my wall, over my head, at a high rate of speed.

I sat there, holding the string, and feeling stupid.

[ArchAngelCD]

My biggest concern on carrying reloads would be to hear a click rather than a bang at crunch time.
beachjumper,
That is the least of my concerns. I have NEVER had a round I produced fail to go bang when I pulled the trigger. What makes you think the factory would make better ammo than you can? Have some faith in yourself, I'm sure your ammo is much better than the factory stuff just as mine is. I use quality components and I practice a level of quality control no factory can possible attain because I load my ammo by hand. (Well, sorta by hand. My Lee Classic Turret Press does the hard work!)

My .38 Special ammo is better than any Winchester ammo I can buy. I use Winchester Brass, Winchester primers, Winchester powder and sometimes even Winchester bullets. My advantage is, I care about what I'm doing whereas a machine doesn't care at all. :D

[beachjumper]

How long have you been reloading ...CD?

[SlamFire1]

That is the least of my concerns. I have NEVER had a round I produced fail to go bang when I pulled the trigger.

Well I have. Dud primers.

However the good news is, I have had the same thing happen with Master Brand and Zero factory reloads. I have shot cases of that stuff. So maybe I am not the only one who makes iffy ammo.

The premium new factory stuff, even the 10 year old stuff that has rolled around on the floorboards of the car, has always gone bang. But I don't shoot enough of that to have a good data base. Too expensive.

[beachjumper]

My feeling right now is to trust Speer, Hornady ect... to make my SD ammo. until I get a lot more experience reloading and then make a decision whether to make my own or use the factory stuff. With practice ammunition it's not a problem since I'm shooting at an unarmed stationary paper target. But I have seen experienced reloaders blow up thier $1000+ 1911's at the range I shoot at over the last three years.

[Clark]

But I have seen experienced reloaders blow up thier $1000+ 1911's at the range I shoot at over the last three years.

I assume you mean that the brass bubble burst over the long naked feed ramp, blowing the magazine bottom plate, mag spring, and follower toward the shooter's feet, while the grips blew off giving the shooter's hand an owee.

If anyone can split the barrel on a well supported 1911 with it's thick steel, like thin steel CZ52, I would like to see the pics and read what was the load.

[beachjumper]

That's a great description of what I saw Clark except their was blood involved and the barrel bulged on one of them.

[pinkymingeo]

The first deer I ever missed was "released" by a Federal factory .270 round that didn't go bang. I've had many factory duds and squibs since then. Don't trust the stuff at all, but I have complete faith in my loads. The legal argument surrounding handloads for personal defense is, IMHO, pointless. The legal team that's out to get your butt can make an issue of any ammo you use, handloaded or factory. What, you used "special, mankilling hollowpoint bullets that cost $1 apiece? A man's life is only worth a dollar to you?". Blah, blah blah. My CCW guns are scandium revolvers, and I load them well below published max. I don't care about maximum fps, fpe or theories of expansion. I just want a lot of penetration. Two holes are better than one. If a 135gr .357 bullet at 900fps will make two holes, why would I load it to 1000fps? It's done what it can do.

[beachjumper]

Hi: pinkymineo:
The only duds I've had were rimfire ammo. I did have a few rounds of brand named factory .45's and 9mm's that I could see were obviously defective; one had a gash in the bullet and in a couple of .45's, the bullets were pushed down too deep into the cases.
I've been an attorney since 1982 and have yet to heard a good arguement against using handloaded JHP ammunition in a legal self-defense shooting.

[Roccobro]

BJ- In your experience, does the make or brand of ammunition ever come up in a defensive shooting suit?

Justin

[beachjumper]

Hi reccobro:
My only experience is in florida. There are some states where hollow points are illegal to possess to the general public but I do not see how that would effect a civil trial.
If the self-defense shooting is legally justified, then I can't see how the use of a handload would matter whether you used a .22 short or a 12 gauge to defend yourself or your family. As we say "pick 12" and let's go to trial.

[Roccobro]

Thanks. :)

Justin