Semi-automatic assault rifles in self-defense, such as AK-47 and AR-15?


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GuyWithQuestions
January 14, 2008, 05:43 PM
I had a roommate a few years back who owned an AK 47. I think that it would be fun to have either an AK 47 or AR 15 to shoot for fun. My question is, are semi-automatic assault rifles any good for home defense? I want to get something that's perfectly legal, not too expensive (which is all relative), and that would make the Brady Campaign pee their pants if they found that another law abiding citizen just bought whatever it is. What would be a good choice?

To buy and own a semi-automatic AK-47 or AR-15 in the state of Utah, do you just go through the same process that you would to buy any other gun? Do you have to fill out any special paper work? I've only bought a handgun in my lifetime and of course there's the background check, so I was just wondering if there's anything extra since the Brady Campaign doesn't like AK-47's and AR-15's.

What would be a good caliber to look for and good price range if you don't want something mediocre, but still reasonable?

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Andras
January 14, 2008, 05:55 PM
www.ar15.com, in particular the Utah Hometown forum here (http://www.ar15.com/forums/forum.html?b=8&f=37) (Rocky Mountain States).

ColinthePilot
January 14, 2008, 06:00 PM
I don't know specifics about laws in UT, but most states consider an AK or AR to be just another semi auto rifle. You run into problems in the northeast and ************, where they have ban lists on certain evil assault rifles. Otherwise, you still have to do the instant background check, assuming you buy from a dealer. I don't know anything about .223 prices since i don't have anything in chambered in it, but 7.62X39 has been almost prohibitively expensive for me lately. I haven't shot my SKS in 4-5 mos. Also, I've heard that overpenetration can be a concern when using an AK or AR for home defense.

CWL
January 14, 2008, 06:04 PM
While I like AR15's, which rifle you choose is purely personal preference. For Ar15's stick with 5.56mmNATO/.223 Rem ammo while you should stick with 7.62x39 for the AKM family of rifles. This makes them cheapest to buy replacement/upgrade parts and magazines rather than dealing with an off-caliber version of either rifle. Also makes them easier to sell if you even need to.

As to overpenetration, it really depends on whether you live in a high-density location although 5.56mm is not as penetrative as some people "hear".

Here are two links comparing penetration tests of .40S&W pistol, 12ga lug and .223Rem

http://www.olyarms.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=15&Itemid=26
http://www.olyarms.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=14&Itemid=26

Desert Scorpion
January 14, 2008, 07:11 PM
Your best bet is to get a smaller caliber. 5.56 and 7.62 rounds used in both the AK-47 and AR over penetrate often and will go right through most of your walls in your house, risky for self defence. I would get an AK-47 Folding stock model for outside use and a shotgun for inside use (if need be it comes to that):what: The Ak-47 is more reliable but less acurate than the AR-15; the AR-15 is less reliable but more accurate:banghead: So choose! Of course there is this new AR-15 pattern that just came out that fixes most reliability issues with the AR-15 Gas system. Take a look more money but better shootin, it is called the LWRC here is the link http://www.eastcoastfirearms.com/gallery/default.asp?parent_id=127&child_id=0&is_gallery=1 .
Me, I would get a Bushmaster Carbon 15 9mm Carbine, this rifle uses the nice AR-15 Pattern and is chambered for a pistol round in 9mm better for home defence:rolleyes: get this and attach a light to the bottom an E-Otech red dot and BAM!!! here is the link

http://www.bushmaster.com/catalog_carbon15_AZ9-C15R16FT.asp

Desert Scorpion
January 14, 2008, 07:15 PM
Here is a list of laws by state given to us by the NRA:) Just click on your state and read, do more reasurch too, look at the web site, then find to more law web sites defining your state law, then make sure to call your local police department and ask them, make sure you get the name of the person that tells you if it is legal or not just for records.

http://www.nraila.org/GunLaws/

strat81
January 14, 2008, 07:22 PM
.56 and 7.62 rounds used in both the AK-47 and AR over penetrate often and will go right through most of your walls in your house,
So will 9mm, 45 ACP, and 00 Buck.

Desert Scorpion
January 14, 2008, 07:54 PM
Come on:banghead: what do you think has more penetration 5.56 or 9mm.:mad:

H2O MAN
January 14, 2008, 07:59 PM
I don't think the bad guy is worried about over penetration... use what you have available and make sure you hit your target.

DrewH
January 14, 2008, 08:02 PM
FBI tests have shown some common brands of 5.56mm have less penetration than 9mm.

DrewH
January 14, 2008, 08:09 PM
There are just a rifle in Utah. No paperwork other than whatever Utah makes you fill out for a longgun purchase.

"Semiautomatic assault rifle" is kind of an oxymoron, incidentally. The proper defnition of an assault rifle is a select fire rifle firing an mid-powered cartridge, i.e. between a pistol and full power rifle cartridge. Not that the Brady campaign cares.

RockyMtnTactical
January 14, 2008, 08:59 PM
It's just like buying any other gun. As for if they are any good for home defense, my AR15 is my primary home defense weapon. I recommend taking some classes with it and shooting it often.

What part of Utah are you in?

HorseSoldier
January 15, 2008, 12:53 AM
Come on what do you think has more penetration 5.56 or 9mm.


5.56mm has better penetration on a single barrier, but any time it hits an intervening barrier that starts it yawing, penetration drops off rapidly (though not necessarily predictably). Pistol bullets, which are less effected by yawing will retain their energy better.

C-grunt
January 15, 2008, 05:41 AM
Using the correct ammunition for home defense..ie. hollow points or soft points. The 5.56/.223 has less penetration most of the time than a 9mm hollowpoint and is one of the big reasons why police agencies throughout the country have switched from the MP5 (and like weapons) to 5.56 weapons.

One of my intstructors in the academy was forced to shoot a bad guy with his short barrelled M4 before he executed a hostage. The shot was from behind at a distance of around 15 feet using a heavy 70+ grain bullet. The round struck the BG in the upper back, deflected somewhat down and broke apart. Two pieces did exit the bad guy and hit the hostage but only caused superficial flesh wounds.

Bartholomew Roberts
January 15, 2008, 07:00 AM
Come on what do you think has more penetration 5.56 or 9mm.

Luckily penetration is based on physics instead of what I think might happen and we have about two dozen threads discussing this issue in detail. As many others have pointed out, bullet construction plays a bigger role in penetration than caliber.

All spitzer shaped bullets like to yaw when they strike a mass that is mostly water. The question is usually where the yaw happens. If it happens inside the target, then smaller high velocity rounds can break apart. Because the resulting smaller fragments lose momentum rapidly, they present less of a lethal threat than a larger, slower moving bullet that stays intact and retains momentum.

Both 7.62x39 and 5.56x45 have bullets that will behave like this; though it is harder to find with 7.62x39 since it is larger and slower (larger means harder to rip apart and more momentum, slower means less force to break down the bullet).

If you would like more reading on this, the "Terminal Ballistics of .223" thread in the Rifle Forum Reading Library has a large catalogue of gel shots of various rounds. You can compare those to common gel shots at websites like Brassfetcher.com and get an idea of the potential of various rounds for penetration.

If you are looking for a magic bullet that will reliably stop an adversary but not penetrate several interior walls if you miss, then you are out of luck because it doesn't exist. The best way to avoid overpenetration is to maximize your chances of hitting the target - which for many people means a long gun.

GuyWithQuestions
January 18, 2008, 03:48 AM
RockyMtnTactical, I'm in the Cache Valley area.

possum
January 18, 2008, 04:29 AM
i love the ar series and own one, i would have no reservations about using it in a hd situation, as a matter of fact a fighting rifle would be the best choice. some highly respected people in the gun community/ trainning arena agree. "a handgun is the means to a rifle."

i say go for the evil black rifle ar and don't look back. some great companies to look t are stag, bushmaster, rra, and if money is no problem then i would look at the www.slr15.com my favoite being the "grail" man i would love to add one of those to the collection.

as far as ammo for the ar, i would use 55gr fmj for practice and attending training courses which is something else that i highly suggest. for hd/sd i suggest some hornaday tap it will serve you well.

btw get an ar that is 5.56 this will give you the option of shooting .223 or 5.56.

TexasRifleman
January 18, 2008, 08:08 AM
Come on what do you think has more penetration 5.56 or 9mm.


Have you not seen ANY of the research on this? Literally hundreds if not thousands of tests prove you wrong on this one.

GuyWithQuestions
January 19, 2008, 09:24 PM
I just had another question. I'm more of a handgun person and don't know as much about rifles. Typically, how to a lot of the assault rifles compare to popular hunting long guns in home defense? I think that the AK-47 would be easier to manuever around than a hunting rifle, for example? How do they compare in deadly force in stopping the imminent lethal threat? Sorry about my ignorance.

Gewehr98
January 20, 2008, 12:59 AM
*** is a "semi-automatic assault rifle"? :scrutiny:

(IOW, the anti-gunners have indeed brainwashed the masses.)

GuyWithQuestions
January 20, 2008, 01:32 AM
*** is a "semi-automatic assault rifle"?

Look, I'm sorry. I said that I'm more of a handgun type of person. What I was trying to say is a semi-automatic only rifle modeled after a selective fire rifle that has ammunition between a pistol and battle rifle. I didn't know what to call the AK-47 and similar models that you buy in the stores. I know that Wikipedia says that AR-15's aren't true assault rifles because by definition it has to be selective fire and AR-15 is semi-automatic only. Then I read under the Assault Weapons Ban that it was originally trying to ban semi-automatic rifles modeled after assault rifles. So when I posted on this thread I didn't know what to call it. I'm sorry, I was just interested in buying one of whatever I should call them that are not true assault rifles because they're not selective fire but have instead had their non semi-automatic modes (fully-automatic and/or burst modes) removed or however I need to word it.

Andras
January 20, 2008, 01:38 AM
"Rifle" works.

GuyWithQuestions
January 20, 2008, 01:53 AM
How would you word it to distinguish it from a hunting rifle, for instance? Let's say I go into a firearm's shop and want to look for an AK-47, bushmaster, or a AR-15, but I don't want to look at typical hunting rifles? I wouldn't just say "rifle" because they may show me the typical hunting rifles, and "do you sell any assault rifles" wouldn't be worded correctly.

iamkris
January 20, 2008, 02:00 AM
How about just asking for a semi-auto, intermediate caliber, detachable mag fed rifle....say something like a AR15 or AKM.

Same as you would ask for a lever action rifle, or a pump action rifle.

Andras
January 20, 2008, 02:01 AM
"Hi, I'd like to look at some rifles for home defense."

If the guy behind the counter hands you a hunting rifle, you know you are in the wrong store.

Or, "I want to buy either an AR or an AK, what have you got?"

serrano
January 20, 2008, 02:06 AM
How would you word it to distinguish it from a hunting rifle, for instance? Let's say I go into a firearm's shop and want to look for an AK-47, bushmaster, or a AR-15, but I don't want to look at typical hunting rifles? I wouldn't just say "rifle" because they may show me the typical hunting rifles, and "do you sell any assault rifles" wouldn't be worded correctly.

Sounds like you're looking for a magazine fed semi-auto rifle.

GuyWithQuestions
January 20, 2008, 02:15 AM
Since AK-47s are technically assault rifles, and the rifles modeled after the real ones aren't selective fire but semi-auto only mode, what could I call the civilian model to still be correct in my wording? Or does it not matter with the wording to call a civilian semi-auto mode an AK-47? Even though most people just call them AK-47s, I was just wondering.

GuyWithQuestions
January 20, 2008, 02:17 AM
"Hi, I'd like to look at some rifles for home defense."

If the guy behind the counter hands you a hunting rifle, you know you are in the wrong store.


LOL

DPris
January 20, 2008, 02:18 PM
Guy,
Having obtained three AKs & four ARs here in Utah over the years, they're just rifles as far as the state cares.
There's no additional paperwork or legal requirements anywhere in the state that I'm aware of.
Don't worry about terminology, just ask for an AK-47 :)
The WASRs are entry level, usually functional, but sorta bottom of the barrel.
One on-line dealer that seems to have a good rep (you can order one & have it sent to a dealer near you) is Atlantic Firearms.
Another choice closer to home, up in Ogden, is Impact Guns. Both carry decent AKs.
If you're not already aware, the AK will not be quite as accurate as an AR, but it should be perfectly adequate for defense & hunting inside 100 yards, possibly 200 yards if you get a good one.

And, while not an across the board comparison that'd hold exactly true in every situation with every bullet & all barriers, I've tested 9mm ball & .223 ball in my penetration box with 20 one-inch pine board squares lined up. The 9mm ball travelled farther than the .223, both fired through 16-inch ARs at the same distance. The 9 kept on nose-first, the .223 tumbled & came to rest intact with the nose pointing back toward me.

Denis

Gewehr98
January 20, 2008, 02:30 PM
How would you word it to distinguish it from a hunting rifle, for instance?

I have whitetail deer in my freezer. They were taken by my Romanian SAR-1 AK clone. We also have deer hunters up here who fill their tags using AR-15 variants - nothing illegal about it, and they do a fine job.

Military-issue rifles and rifles patterned after same have been used by their owners for many, many years to hunt supper. My grandfather's Krag, father's Springfield, my M14NM and AK, they're all just fine for the job. In today's twisted vernacular, they were all "assault" rifles before they went to the deer woods.

IOW, a hunting rifle is quite simply the rifle you hunt with, nothing more, nothing less. Google "Jim Zumbo" for more info on the concept. ;)

hamourkiller
January 20, 2008, 03:23 PM
Any carbine sized rifle will be effective in home defense. Marlin / Winchester lever guns come to mind. Some come in pistol calibers .357/.41mag/.44mag and these average 1700 fps or so with heavy bullets.
The 30/30 class rifles are a large step up in power, 150 gr bullet @ 2300 t0 2400 fps or 170 gr bullet @ 2100 to 2200 fps.
Just something to consider other than the ar-15 / ak-47 formats.
If distance is involved in the home defense situation, almost any hunting rifle will reach out and touch them. The lethality of modern hunting cartridges has to be seen to be apreciated.

What ever rifle you choose, get good with it.

GuyWithQuestions
January 20, 2008, 05:13 PM
Gewehr98,

I know that people hunt with them, and I believe in other places I worded it "I don't want to look at a typical hunting rifle." I know your typical hunting rifle is going to be different than another's. I was wondering how I'd say what I'm looking for without saying "semi-automatic version of an assault rifle" (since by definition it can't be selective fire if it's semi only)? If I say "rifle", there's many many rifles a gun shop could show me that aren't a semi modeled after a previous assault rifle. I'm planning on talking to others when shopping around for these rifles before buying one. If I have to say "semi-automatic rifle with detachable magazine with intermediate caliber" in each or every other sentence that I say, that could become a mouthful. That's why I'm looking for the wording.

benEzra
January 20, 2008, 09:12 PM
My first choice for a defensive carbine would be something in .223/5.56x45mm, because there is a better variety of defensive ammo available. A 16" barreled .223 AK with a Kobra optic would be my first choice in that role (just because I like the AK platform), followed closely by a 16" barreled AR with an Eotech or red dot (probably a Rock River Elite CAR A4 or something similar).

Putting a light on the forend may also be useful.

Gewehr98
January 21, 2008, 12:40 AM
Why the "assault" nomenclature, at all?

It's just a semi-auto rifle, period. So is a Ruger Mini-14, Remington 7400, Browning BAR, M1 Garand, etc. Is there a stigma attached to the latter rifles? Wording it any other way only plays into the hands of the VPC folks and their ilk who invented the "assault weapon" term to begin with, and plays law-abiding gun owners against each other simply because of the cosmetic differences in their chosen firearms. I say cosmetic because true full-auto military (NFA) firearms are few and far between in the civilian gun ownership world.

I don't know how to state it more simply than that. Were you hoping we here at THR would refer to them as icky-poo evil bullet hoses meant for killing babies?

General Geoff
January 21, 2008, 02:07 AM
I ask to look at the evil black rifles, no lie. Always gets a grin from the folks behind the counter. :)

Old Guy
January 21, 2008, 02:22 AM
The AK47 I purchased a month ago, fired then, and on Friday, now and again whacks my trigger finger! Is this a trait? or has mine a problem, any fix for this?

GuyWithQuestions
January 21, 2008, 04:47 AM
Gewehr98

Let's change the nomenclature from "assault" to "military appearance". The reason for "assault" is I associate that with intermediate caliber, vs "battle rife" caliber, but "military" might work better.

I particularly am interested in getting a semi-auto rifle that's modeled after a military rifle. I want recreational shooting with style, while at the same time something that'll be decent in home/self-defense so that's why the title has that wording. Just like kids get certain airsoft guns that model certain firearms, I want something with style because of what it's modeled after but at the same time practical. Semi-auto rifles in general are nice, but what if you want something modeled after military types? I also know that they would make the Brady Bunch mad at the same time, even though it's just a "rifle", which I wouldn't mind causing more stress to the Brady Bunch. I don't see these rifles any more evil than any other rifle, and a rifle is a firearm, which aren't bad in themselves and are just tools like any other tool out there. I just wanted to know what you would call them and still be correct if looking for one at the store? Or do they not really have any "correct" names other than "semi-auto rifle with a detachable magazine modeled after a certain military rifle"? "Military-style semi-automatic rifle"? I was just wondering.

Firepower!
January 21, 2008, 05:23 AM
Semi Auto is excellant for defense. In fact in burst fire you only hit one or two as the desired target (especially the case with AK). I say semi auto AR15 by Bushmaster would be best for you.

benEzra
January 21, 2008, 10:44 AM
The AK47 I purchased a month ago, fired then, and on Friday, now and again whacks my trigger finger! Is this a trait? or has mine a problem, any fix for this?
That's caused by some out-of-spec made fire control parts that Century (importer of civilian AK's) used to use to meet the required number of U.S. parts. There's a do-it-yourself fix if you're handy with tools:

http://www.gunsnet.net/Linx310/slapfix.htm

A simpler fix, and one that will probably give you a better trigger pull to boot, is to buy a new Tapco G2 trigger group for around $30 (get the single hook or double hook version depending on whether your rifle has the single hook or double hook):

Single hook: http://www.tapco.com/proddesc.aspx?Id=7f8c130c-3761-48e3-9560-894e018c8330

Double hook: http://www.tapco.com/proddesc.aspx?id=f18e5260-3196-4c56-9af4-f8538128606e

The G2 parts work with all Mil-Spec receiver variations. Whether building a new rifle or upgrading your current AK, the G2 trigger group should be at the top of your list. Our trigger groups offer an improved trigger pull of 3-4 lbs. and eliminate the painful trigger slap common on other designs. All G2 components are heat treated to a 45-48C Rockwell hardness and manufactured with tough 4140 tool-grade carbon steel. A precision secondary machining process ensures perfect fit and function. The “No fumble” trigger sleeve allows you to assemble the trigger group outside the rifle and drop it in as one piece. Each piece is finished in a military grade dark black oxide. This item is marked as “TAPCO USA ” and counts as 3 U.S. Sec 922R compliant parts.

The newer WASR's come with the G2 trigger group already installed.

stubbicatt
January 21, 2008, 10:58 AM
The 556 round with TAP ammo is probably the best choice for the purposes you described. I haven't done penetration tests with the Hornady TAP in 7.62x39, so I cannot comment on that.

The 40 cal I tested on water jugs went through several, while the Hornady TAP in 556 went into one, which exploded, and a tiny bb sized fragment went into the next water jug. My test is completely unscientific, but it satisfied my curiosity. 556 is my HD choice.

YMMV.

BTW, glad somone posted that link to the Oly website with the penetration tests, as that pretty much mirrored my limited experience doing this test.

As far as 00 buckshot in a 12 ga, I have a friend who was with a law enforcement agency where 00 buck was shot at a badguy. Most of the pellets hit the dude, but one at least did not. It traveled 1/4 mile, penetrated the exterior and interior walls of a lady's house, through the thin steel of a refrigerator door and came to rest inside the refrigerator. This is a fact which I don't question, and is one reason why, if I use a 12 ga, I use 0000 Buck instead, or #4 shot. Maybe it makes a difference, maybe it doesn't, but I like my neighbors and have no desire to accidentally execute any of them while trying to stop a home invasion or the like.

YMMv

MD_Willington
January 21, 2008, 01:07 PM
How about not using the grabbers catch phrase and just calling them, modern gas operated firearms etcetera...

Sure you could use an AR of AK clone, but on the same token I could use a BAR or 750, 7400... similar operation but they don't get as bad a reputation as the clones...

{/rant-off

bhk
January 21, 2008, 01:51 PM
Me, I think the term 'military-style semi auto' is a good discriptor. It quickly separates them from 'hunting style' semi autos. No doubt, many ARs are used for hunting, but they are definitely have a military heritage (unlike the hunting semis now offered by Remington and Browning). To say they are all the same thing is really kidding ourselves. It would be kind of like saying a Jeep Rubicon and a Corvette are the same thing because when you push your foot on the pedal they both go. The term assault rifle needs to be buried deep.

GuyWithQuestions
January 21, 2008, 03:40 PM
I just brought up "military-style semi-automatic rifle" because the U.S. Department of Justice classifies AK-47s and AR-15s as "military-style semi-automatics" in their statistics reports. So I was checking with THR to see if that's correct terminology so when I go the firearm shops or discuss with people, I don't have to have a mouthful or confuse them with other types of semi-auto rifles. I also want to make sure I don't use any prejudice wording, even though technically I do want to make the Brady Bunch pee their pants with whatever I do decide to buy.

rde
January 21, 2008, 10:49 PM
"I would like to look at something that would cause Sarah Brady to pee in her diaper while making Barbara Boxer and Feinstein lose control of their bowels...and (importantly)...rendering Hillary Clinton completely speechless." Maybe in black or od green..perhaps.

Rifleman 173
January 22, 2008, 12:42 PM
The new catch phrase being used for EBRs is: "Sport Utility Rifle" or SUR. It kind of fits better than any other phrase to identify what we shoot and how we shoot. Besides, it throws off the anti-gun nuts when you use that wording. :evil:

TexasRifleman
January 22, 2008, 12:45 PM
So now we need Compact SURs for things in 5.56 and Full Size SURs for .308?

I can dig it. What about pistol caliber carbines? Crossovers....

This car thing could really confuse them. If we can find a way to make them sound "green" we'd really be onto something.

How can we work "hybrid" into it somehow.......?


OK, if you have a brass catcher on your SUR then you are into recycling and are therefore "Eco Friendly".
This has potential....

Who would want to ban something that is made from recycled material, that is eco friendly, and available to the masses? :evil:

H2O MAN
January 22, 2008, 01:20 PM
So now we need Compact SURs for things in 5.56 and Full Size SURs for .308?

.308s are HDWs (Homeland Defense Weapons) :evil:

GuyWithQuestions
January 24, 2008, 02:00 AM
I've been thinking about either an AK-47 or an AR-15, but I think I may want to start out with an AK-47. What types of AK-47's would one recommend? The price range that I'm thinking about is $500. I was looking at gunbroker.com and there are a lot of Saigas AK-47's. What's the difference between the main types of AK-47's?

kurtmax
January 24, 2008, 03:02 AM
An AR is an excellent home defense choice. 5.56mm has less potential penetration than most handgun rounds (of course, there is randomness in anything, it could penetrate a ton of walls or only one or two). It also has much more power than any handgun round. You have 30rnd mags standard and much better retention....

Atlantic Firearms
January 24, 2008, 07:56 AM
On the AK47 thing you may want to visit our web site www.atlanticfirearms.com we carry the widest selection of AK rifles on the web & this would give you a fairly good idea of what is out there and base prices , this is not aimed at selling you one but to give you a idea of what is out there .If you have any questions please feel free to ask.

Gatorfan83
January 24, 2008, 09:46 AM
I use a romanian made ak47 for home defense an i like it better then the ar15, but that is just my preference, you should get what you are comfortable
with.

Rockerga
January 24, 2008, 09:54 AM
Back to the original intent of the topic: The best home defense weapon is a pump shotgun! PERIOD!

I own several weapons; 9mm, .45, and even an AK and I would not even think about letting any of them loose especially the AK against someone in my house due to living in a subdivision! I could easily kill a neighbor as the perp with any other than a shotgun.

Additionally a shotgun "pumping" should send "anyone with even a thread of common sense" running or they deserve to be maggot-food.

My .02

cpileri
January 24, 2008, 12:06 PM
Dear GuyWithQuestions,
A ways back you asked to compare a full-power rifle cartridge with the intermediate ctgs of the Ak-pattern or AR-pattern rifles. Unless I skipped the answer trying to avoid the 'how exactly should I phrase this' posts; the short answer on that is that the classic 30-06 or 308 or even 8mm Mauser (and many others) would be devastating on humans at self-defense ranges.
They are not typically chosen for several reasons: its overkill for a human (i.e. the intermediate ctgs do just fine), overpenetration of walls/bad guys etc (you would have to custom load frangible bullets in the 30-06 to mitigate this), BLAST is deafening fired indoors, the platform (rifle) is long and cumbersome indoors, etc.
Still, if its what you have it sure will put down a Bad Guy.

But you seem to have settled on the AK- or AR-pattern for your choice of rifle. The Saiga's you mentioned get rave reviews for the most part, see here: http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?act=Search&CODE=getnew so they would be a fine choice. But alot of other 'brands' of ak-style rifles get just as many good reviews. Maybe check here: http://www.gunsnet.net/forums/search.php?do=getnew
Also, if you are not yet settled on the 7.62x39mm chambering; an AK-74 pattern rifle in 5.45x39mm are reliable, fun to shoot, and have the advantage right now of the availability of reasonably priced ammo, see: http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/Bulgarian__WASP__5.45x39_FMJ.html among other places. The Aim isn't even the best price! But its convenient to order from them.
On the AR-style platform, one REALLY nice feature is the versatility of the modifications that have been created for it. You can stick that home defense light and laser on it on the barrel, on the front sight, on the handguards, etc etc- many possibilities. The accessory mods for the AK-types are many, but not nearly as much as the AR.

Hope this helps.
C-

cpileri
January 24, 2008, 12:45 PM
Maybe you'd be interested in this:
http://cmmginc.secure-mall.com/shop/?shop=1&&cat=33&
C-

briansmithwins
January 24, 2008, 01:04 PM
"The best home defense weapon is a pump shotgun! PERIOD!"

No. Not for me. I live next door to an apartment complex in a town house. I don't have a safe direction to fire anything w/o possibly impacting a residence outside my house. That being said, the weapon I grab in the night is my AK loaded with ballistic tipped thin shell JHPs. Those have the least penetration ability of any weapon I own, 9mm, .45, 12 gage (loaded w/#4 buck) or the SKS. Having 30 of them on tap is also nice.

I actually sold my pump shotgun after shooting a 3 gun stage that required engaging targets while prone. The FN SLP that replaced is is faster, smoother, can be shot 1 handed or prone, and isn't subject to being short-stroked.

I've found that people that thing the 12 gage pump is the end all and be all of hand weapons don't get out much. OTOH, I'm also skeptical about th bowel-loosening quality of pump-guns too. BSW

strat81
January 24, 2008, 01:07 PM
Back to the original intent of the topic: The best home defense weapon is a pump shotgun! PERIOD!

I own several weapons; 9mm, .45, and even an AK and I would not even think about letting any of them loose especially the AK against someone in my house due to living in a subdivision! I could easily kill a neighbor as the perp with any other than a shotgun.

Additionally a shotgun "pumping" should send "anyone with even a thread of common sense" running or they deserve to be maggot-food.
Wow, I think you incorporated every myth and cliche about rifles and shotguns for home defense into one post. Good job!

Rockerga
January 24, 2008, 03:38 PM
1- Shotguns are more apt to hit a target in the dark at any range (Remember this is home defense we are discussing) than a long rifle or handgun running into walls in the dark trying to site your assailant. This is not perfection at your discretion...this is night-time warfare with sleep still in your eyes. YOU do not have your night vision and the perp does!

2- I have had the luck to be able to shoot in an actual neighborhood that was to be torn-down for commercial building. Not hollywood structures or training structures but real live homes in a real subdivision. I went in with a "friend" after the area was cleared of all humans and fenced. We did some live-fire enactments just to see what "possible" damage different rounds would deliver in this "home defense" environment. I do agree that it is the actual round used and not the caliber that is the decisive culprit however. We did not have every imaginable round at our disposal but only what we carried. What we actually used in the handguns is long gone from my memory, but we did use Wolf 122 gr HP and 122 gr FMJ in the 7.62 X 39 AK variant.

From our position: The 9mm passed through three interior walls, the outer wall of "our" house and penetrated the neighbors outer siding into the wall but not entering the other house. The .45 penetrated the outer wall of the neighbors house after the same trial from the same position but did not go into an interior wall in house #2. Both 7.62 rounds passed through two interior walls of the neighbors house.

The above were indicative of rounds not fired directly into the studs but after all there is more space in a wall that structure so rounds that struck studs only were not prone to as much distance or penetration after an initial strike. So all I am saying is this is a real life high probability with hi-powered rounds fired from a typical home.

That is why I use a shotgun in my home. I can awake to the commotion, point in the general direction, call the police and go back to sleep until they arrive.

The below is courtesy of: http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/sh00-e.htm

General features of shotgun.
Main advantages of shotguns are their versatility and short-range firepower. Shotguns can fire multiple projectiles of various sizes, creating a lethal pattern, which will increase chances of hitting target, or single large projectile, powerful enough to drop down a large brown bear, or incapacitate a human being protected in all but the heaviest body armour. Shotguns also can fire special purpose ammunition, such as door buster slugs, and even a high explosive and incendiary rounds, as well as the less lethal ammunition, useful for riot control and other police operations. Most, if not all modern combat shotguns are magazine fed repeaters, with the underbarrel tubular magazines being the most common type. Those magazines offer a sleek, slim profile of the gun, but are slow to reload. Some recently developed combat shotguns featured a detachable, box-type magazines, which can be replaced very quickly. Few combat shotguns were developed with rotary, revolver-like magazines or drum-type magazines of relatively large capacity (10-12, and up to 28 rounds), but those magazines are extremely bulky, heavy, expensive and sometimes slow to reload.
The disadvantages of the combat shotguns are the limited effective range of fire (about 50-70 meters with standard buckshot, up to 100-150 meters with specially designed subcaliber or fleschette loadings).

My .02

briansmithwins
January 24, 2008, 04:22 PM
"1- Shotguns are more apt to hit a target in the dark at any range (Remember this is home defense we are discussing) than a long rifle or handgun running into walls in the dark trying to site your assailant."

You really believe this?!

I shot this target with 4 rounds of Fiocchi 27 pellet #4 buck AT 25 YARDS!

You may observe that most of the pellets hit the man-sized target? This was with a cylinder choke and a 18" barrel.

If you think a shotgun will 'fill a room' with pellets, you have never patterned a shotgun with buckshot.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm also has good information about how shotguns actually work.

BTW, FMJ 7.62x39 does go thru buildings like grass thru a goose: I would not recommend using it in a urban area. BSW

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y3/briansmithwins/AeroslugandFi27pel4buckcylchoke.jpg

strat81
January 24, 2008, 10:12 PM
Rockerga, head over to the shotgun forum and search for some target that guys have used to pattern their shotguns. As briansmithwins mentioned, a shotgun will not fill a room with shot and at most home engagement distances, patterns are often very tight.

You must aim with a shotgun.

Plus, a .223 AR can carry 30 rounds in the mag. I haven't seen any 30-rd shotguns available at my LGS. .223 ammo is also available in a very wide variety of types, some of which are designed to minimize penetration through barriers.

And since the link is so good, I'll repeat it: http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

Rockerga
January 25, 2008, 11:43 AM
I admit I am a newbie to shotguns hands down. I guess I am more terrified by what I have seen .45, 9mm much less .223 or 7.62 do that scares me in a home defense mode. I realize a shotgun still must be aimed but at least a little "off" is more reliable than with a single projectile in that environment.

I love this place and will visit that link. Thanks guys!

Rockerga
January 25, 2008, 11:50 AM
Just finished the article (Thanks again) and all I have have to say is that I must be better than I think I am with a shotgun....in the little time spent shooting them. (Always had rifles or handguns)

I really thought the spread would be much wider-spaced at that distance. Excellent education!

strat81
January 25, 2008, 11:58 AM
"And knowing is half the battle!"
Glad you're learning, Rockerga. I too used to think that the shotgun was the be-all, end-all of home defense. Of course, the best tool for the job is the one you are most proficient with.

The problem with penetration is that anything that penetrates enough to stop a human being will sail through many layers of sheetrock. This includes buckshot, slugs, 9mm, .45 ACP, and .223. Bullet construction can help mitigate this, but it is a balancing act.

As far as sheer devastation to a target 10 feet away with a perfect shot to COM, I'd bet the award would go to the shotgun. Of course, we don't always make perfect shots. And not everyone can handle a shotgun. And those that can handle a shotgun may not be very quick on follow up shots using full-powered buckshot.

In these instances, an M4-style carbine would probably be better.

But if the homeowner is in someway physically handicapped, a J- or K-frame revolver with .32H&R Mag or .38 Specials may be more appropriate.

Prince Yamato
January 25, 2008, 12:20 PM
FWIW, I use the term "Assault Weapon". I don't really care if it's made up. We all know what it means. I make no bones about the fact that I don't hunt and that if I ever used my guns against something living, it would probably be against a person (in self-defense).

I hate political correctness and I can't stand the, "Well you can hunt with AWs too". Yes, you can, but let's be honest, the AK wasn't originally a hunting rifle. Why should we be ashamed of that. 2A doesn't give you the right to hunt, but it does give you the right to defend yourself against enemies, foreign and domestic.

Go into the shop and point to what you want. If you don't see what you want, ask for an AK or an AR. There is no shame in that.

FMJMIKE
January 25, 2008, 07:01 PM
I prefer a M1 Carbine for home defense. Lower muzzle blast and less muzzle flash than AKs and AR-15s. Just use Remington soft points. I guarantee it will stop any aggressor.
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e350/mbmphoto/WinGlock.jpg

Slugless
January 25, 2008, 08:05 PM
"semi-auto", "military-type" or "military-pattern" are what I tend to use. (FWIW "-type" is commonly used in industry for this "type" of thing, e.g. "Kleenex-type facial tissues"). EBR is always fun.

There are folks around here with gobs of experience at setting up and shooting AR-type home defense carbines. taliv, TexasRifleman and Rockymountaintactical are guys whose posts I always pay attention to. You might search under their names & home defense.

W.r.t. make, I discovered to my dismay that my Bushmaster M4gery does not feed hollowpoints reliably. It does not have the M4 feed ramp. For a HD carbine I'd see if there was a way to fix it (polishing?) or consider a better upper. I'd certainly consider LMT.

There's a table floating around about the differences between types of ARs, you can search on that, but the table doesn't explain why MPI a bolt is worth doing, if at all. Here's a link that explains some of the issues, credit to dasanii19 at pafoa.org.

http://www.pafoa.org/forum/rifles-42/4029-who-makes-best-ar15-page-5.html#post57671

GuyWithQuestions
January 31, 2008, 04:26 PM
I visited a firearms shop to see what they had. I asked if they had any military-style semi-automatic rifles and the worker said, "Yes, here's an AR-15 which is modeled after the M-16. We also have this AK-47 style semi-automatic. It's an off-shoot of an AK-47, because it has to be selective fire by definition to be an AK-47. Other than that it's the same." I liked the feel and operation of the AR-15 a lot more, and the magazine and safety is more user friendly. However, I liked the looks of the AK-47 style semi-automatic more.

The store worker said that more people have died from AK-47s and their variants than any other gun and "When we've been talking there have been many more who just died." I asked him if that was in the military world. He said that that is also in the civilian world and in the U.S. (I actually saw some ATF statistic that military-style semi's are very very low in murders while the handguns are the main culprit, but I refrained from starting an argument). He said that they're useful for self-defense, but that a shotgun would be more useful because it doesn't go through exterior walls as easily as rifles and handguns. He said that when he shoots a large animal with a shotgun, it'll hit multiple places all over the body which means it'll be good for self-defense because it'll be lights out for the person who broke in. I asked him about hunting with an AK-47 style semi rifle. He said you can, but that it won't work very well because their rounds aren't allowed in hollow point. I then asked him about buying a machine gun for home defense. He responded with an evil laughter, "You'll be out of ammunition too quickly. I myself don't have a need to own a machine gun."

strat81
January 31, 2008, 05:16 PM
Went to a firearms shop the other day
Uh oh.

The store worker said that more people have died from AK-47s and their variants than any other gun
While I doubt this is true, it may have to do with the proliferation of the AK-47 design than the round itself. Kinda like saying "more people get hit with F-150s than any other pickup truck." Yeah, probably because more F-150s have been sold per year for the past 20 years than any other pickup truck.

some ATF statistic that military-style semi's are very very low in murders while the handguns are the main culprit, but I refrained from starting an argument
Yep. I believe it was the FBI uniform crime report that gets published annually that said it. Rifles in general aren't very common in crimes. Don't let your facts get in the way of a gun shop commando's myths. It may get ugly. ;)

He said that when he shoots a large animal with a shotgun, it'll hit multiple places all over the body which means it'll be good for self-defense because it'll be lights out for the person who broke in.
False. If this was true, everyone would use birdshot for home defense. Bird shot has been proven to be a lousy SD choice.

Hunters that go for mid- to large-size game often prefer rifles but they realize that shooting the animal in the foot is not a good idea. Shot placement is key, whether it's a deer, a moose, or a bad guy.

He said you can, but that it won't work very well because their rounds aren't allowed in hollow point.
Huh? Not allowed? Where is this, Jersey? 7.62x39 ammo, the most common AK round, is available in FMJ, JHP, and JSP from a variety of sources both domestic and imported. Some states don't allow FMJ for hunting. An expanding hollow point can be a fine hunting bullet.

I then asked him about buying a machine gun for home defense. He responded with an evil laughter, "You'll be out of ammunition too quickly. I myself don't have a need to own a machine gun."
I'll agree with him there.

hamourkiller
January 31, 2008, 05:51 PM
Some times we get fixated on a specific gun or ammo or caliber etc. (What would life be like with out the 9mm vs the 45acp etc!).

I would feel greatly armed with any carbine sized rifle / shotgun I had become proficeint with.

I recomend a self defense battery.

1- CAR-15 loaded with WW 64gr power points.
2- Riot shot gun with rifle sights and extension magazine. Loaded with premium buckshot. Sugs available on side saddle.
3-Powerful bedside revolver, preferably .357 / .41 / 44 mag.

Each gun of the battery is for a specific task.

The CAR-15 is capable of delivering large amounts of firepower from close up till out of sight. Also the most capable of fighting multiple targets. Recoil recovery is nill and any solid hit with the soft points will end the fight. Firing rate is high and unrelenting. This gun stays by the Wifes side of the bed.

The riot gun with buckshot and slugs fills the same niche as the CAR-15 but stays beside me.

The powerful revolver is for up close and personal issues. If the BG is close enough that I have to grab it instead of the long guns, then he is way to close and maximum power per shot is required. When you assume you will be using the handgun at belly rubbing distance the reliabilty of the revolver outweighs the shot capcity advantage of the semi auto pistol. Keep the handgun simple and powerful.

But way more important than the weapon is the person and his attitude going into the fight! With proper mindset most any modern weapon will work for you when the chips are down. Just having a certain type of gun does not make you safe, it does enable you to carry the fight to the enemy!

ReadyontheRight
January 31, 2008, 06:09 PM
Buy a good AR-15 and start shooting in high power rifle competitions.

High Planes Drifter
January 31, 2008, 07:10 PM
I liked the feel and operation of the AR-15 a lot more, and the magazine and safety is more user friendly.

There ya go.;)


However, I liked the looks of the AK-47 style semi-automatic more

Dont complicate this. You're buying a carbine for home defense; not choosing between the last 2 women in the bar at closing time.

Buy the AR, the ergonomics fit you better, thats a hell of alot more important than appearance. Buy one with a 16" barrel, and a collapsible buttstock on it. The shorter overall length makes for fast handling indoors.

dalepres
January 31, 2008, 07:16 PM
Additionally a shotgun "pumping" should send "anyone with even a thread of common sense" running or they deserve to be maggot-food.

Actually, the sound of the pumping shotgun may be the last thing the shotgun pumper hears because he probably won't hear the blast from the bullet that kills him while he's busy trying to chamber a round.

As for penetration - I don't care what you're shooting, you have to assume there will be unexpected penetration. What if it is your children on the other side of the wall? If there's a chance of anyone on the other side of the wall don't shoot. Ever. Period. Remember the rule, "attack a gun, run from a knife." Use alternative defensive tools if there is any reason at all to consider penetration.

dalepres
January 31, 2008, 07:20 PM
Shotguns are more apt to hit a target in the dark at any range (Remember this is home defense we are discussing) than a long rifle or handgun running into walls in the dark trying to site your assailant. This is not perfection at your discretion...this is night-time warfare with sleep still in your eyes. YOU do not have your night vision and the perp does!

Wow. This is a pretty scary statement. If you don't have your night vision or still have sleep in your eyes, you better not be picking up a gun! What if that noise and shadow you're looking to shoot is your child or your wife?

Not that this makes your statement any less scary, but it is more likely that you have your night vision (as in pupil dialation, not clarity of mind) and the perp does not. Hopefully, by the time you're reaching for your gun, your eyes have been open in the dark but the perp is coming in from what is hopefully a lit up street or yard.

dalepres
January 31, 2008, 07:25 PM
IOW, a hunting rifle is quite simply the rifle you hunt with, nothing more, nothing less. Google "Jim Zumbo" for more info on the concept.

:) and if someone breaks into my house, what ever weapon is closest will definitely become an assault weapon.

SwampWolf
February 2, 2008, 07:01 PM
How many times must we hear the myth about the sound of a round being chambered in a shotgun scaring a bad guy away? If that is true, save on the ammo and just make a recording. That'll send him packing!

sarduy
February 3, 2008, 01:07 AM
just get an AK47 with a lot of mags and ammo. load the first round that goes into the chamber with blanks!

if the bad-guy break into your house, just shoot the first rounds BANG ! (Blanks) and scream (FREEZE...!!!) but you'll have a live round ready to go if things go bad!

Clean97GTI
February 3, 2008, 02:37 AM
I do believe the suggestion to use blanks is either the worst advice I've ever heard or is the best trolling sarcasm I've ever heard.

You absolutely want a live round ready should you need it. I know blanks can cause short cycles in many types of guns and although the AK's gas system is robust and overbuilt, it ain't that good.
If you ever have need to point a gun in anger, make sure its going to stop whatever is on the business end.

as far as an AK or AR being good for self defense...well they were designed to shoot people. Can't argue much with that. You would be fine with either although I'd make sure to load a soft point or hollow point in whatever you get. Its cheap insurance that offers some protection against massive overpenetration.

briansmithwins
February 3, 2008, 09:28 AM
just get an AK47 with a lot of mags and ammo. load the first round that goes into the chamber with blanks!

if the bad-guy break into your house, just shoot the first rounds BANG ! (Blanks) and scream (FREEZE...!!!) but you'll have a live round ready to go if things go bad!

You do know that most self loading rifles need a blank firing adapter to function? You also know that from close range blanks are lethal?

Either you are justified using deadly force, or you aren't. BSW

dalepres
February 3, 2008, 11:23 AM
if the bad-guy break into your house, just shoot the first rounds BANG ! (Blanks) and scream (FREEZE...!!!) but you'll have a live round ready to go if things go bad!

The bad guy, in one regard, is very likely to be just like you. When someone is firing a gun at him - and he is armed - he is going to shoot back. It's called self-defense - not legal "self-defense" but instinctive self-defense. So while you're shooting blanks, he's shooting live rounds. You will probably never know that he did not follow your plea for him to freeze because, like the shotgun pumper, you will not hear the shot that kills you.


Either you are justified using deadly force, or you aren't. BSW

Absolutely. Either you are willing to shoot or you are not. A gun that gets drawn as a bluff is very likely to get taken away from the user and used against him by someone who is not bluffing.

If a man is not willing to use a gun, that's ok. It is his choice. He can get a baseball bat and be willing to use it. If he is not willing to use a baseball bat or any weapon, then he must be willing to live with the consequences when some home invasion gang comes in his door.

GuyWithQuestions
February 4, 2008, 12:14 AM
Are military-style semi-automatic rifles that are chambered good for motor vehicle self defense (you'd have a concealed permit), or mostly for home defense? I was wondering about mobility in a motor vehicle, of course it would only supplement my semi-auto handgun. At the same time I know that rifles are more powerful than handguns and have heard that police usually carry long guns in addition to their handgun if they know there's going to be guns involved from the other side.

dalepres
February 4, 2008, 12:26 AM
What kind of attack are you expecting in your vehicle? You can't possibly swing and manouver a long gun well enough to do anything but get hurt when in your vehicle.

Yes, police keep long guns - usually in the trunk or a shotgun locked in the front but they only use them when they get out of the vehicle.

I don't know what state you're in but in Oklahoma, concealed means not visible - even when in the vehicle. I hate that part of the law; my vehicle should be considered private and anything in it should be considered as concealed because to look in my vehicle should be considered a search. But the law is what it is for now. If you're thinking about carrying any weapon in your vehicle, make sure you know the laws in your state.

HorseSoldier
February 4, 2008, 01:23 PM
I'd think that most places a locked and loaded AK or AR or whatever would be pushing past what most district attorneys and grand juries might consider legitimate self defense in a motor vehicle. (Before anyone starts getting worked up, please note the "in a motor vehicle" part.) While your motives may be completely legitimate, I think you're looking at an appearance of looking for trouble or even being an active aggressor when a jury starts trying to sort out why you keep a loaded M4gery in your Corolla (especially if you keep it handy enough to get to in a car jacking scenario, etc.).

And, as someone already noted, long guns are a lot harder to manuever and employ in a car or truck than a handgun. It makes good sense if you're in a situation where the bad guys are coming at you with long guns, too, but unless you do a lot of driving in downtown Baghdad or owe a lot of money to Colombian import-export entrepreneurs it's probably a touch excessive.

strat81
February 4, 2008, 01:39 PM
Are military-style semi-automatic rifles that are chambered good for motor vehicle self defense (you'd have a concealed permit), or mostly for home defense?
Check your state laws before you carry a loaded rifle in your vehicle, either in the trunk or under the front seat. For example, my Nebraska CCW permit is a concealed handgun permit.

Laws also vary with the legality of unlicensed people carrying in their vehicles only, or carrying open versus concealed.

A work-around to all of this is the Kel-Tec PLR-16. It is a pistol that uses AR-15 mags and is chambered for 5.56 NATO. Krinkov-style AK pistols are also in this group. Of course, be conscious of your weapon choice: a jury may view your gun in a very negative light, especially if you chose a rifle or AR/AK pistol instead of a good old fashioned revolver.

Ignition Override
February 5, 2008, 09:32 PM
A quotation on a previous page about a shot in the darkness caught my attention.

Years ago, a gent in Louisiana heard a 'perpetrator' coming into his house and met the person in the hallway.
He raised his pistol and hit the person in the neck.
It was his daughter who wasn't expected home-she died in her father's arms (her last words: "I love you Daddy").

But back to the main topic.
For home defense, if one has a rifle available (instead of a shotgun), why must it be as accurate as an AR-15 or M-14?
An M-1 Carbine (like mine), a Ruger Mini or an AK should slow somebody down quite well. Are we not talking about from 10-30 feet or so?
'Somebody' has set off our loud security system a few times by bumping things from a kitchen shelf or breaking an orange juice glass at 0200...maybe forgetting that it is still armed at 0800. The only house in any nice suburb here which suffered a home invasion was because the smart homeowners :olet service people know that their security system was out of order. Everyone survived ok.

GuyWithQuestions
February 7, 2008, 03:40 AM
How is a good way to store one next to your bed if you want it for that purpose? I heard about someone who slept with a loaded and cocked shotgun under his bed covers with him, although that may make me a little nervous. I sleep with a chambered handgun with no manual safety under my pillow (an XD) and sometimes under the covers, but then it's in a holster and so I feel quite safe. I plan on getting a mount to put the factory default holster on sometime so I can pull it out faster if needs be but still have the trigger guard area protected from fingers during sleep. But then a handgun sounds different than a long gun. How would a semi-auto rifle next to your bed or in your bed work? I don't think I'd want it in my bed under the covers unless there's something I'm not familar with that would help me out. What do you do for bedside protection with rifles?

General Geoff
February 7, 2008, 03:51 AM
I place my M1A next to my bed, popped up against the wall. Mag in, empty chamber, safety off. The way I see it, the time it takes to pull the op rod back and release it, is shorter than it'll take to actually bring the rifle up to my shoulder and align the sights properly.

Titan6
February 7, 2008, 04:02 AM
just get an AK47 with a lot of mags and ammo. load the first round that goes into the chamber with blanks!

if the bad-guy break into your house, just shoot the first rounds BANG ! (Blanks) and scream (FREEZE...!!!) but you'll have a live round ready to go if things go bad!

Now that is the funniest thing I have heard in a long time :D. Unless you were serious... in which case.... well... that would be the opposite of smart.

General Geoff
February 7, 2008, 04:04 AM
^^just remember that blanks don't cycle actions reliably, so you may very well end up with a *click* instead of a *bang* when you need it most.

dalepres
February 9, 2008, 01:18 PM
How is a good way to store one next to your bed if you want it for that purpose?

I sure would not sleep well if I had a loaded and cocked firearm under the sheets with me. Besides the fact that the gun is very likely to get tangled when you try to pull it out in an emergency.

I suggest that for a shotgun or carbine, keep it next to the bed, barrel up, safety off and no round chambered or safety on and round chambered. Practice grabbing the gun and turning off the safety until you can do it without thinking. A lot of people have been killed because their self-defense weapon was on safe. Then again, a lot have been killed because there wasn't a round chambered. I guess you have to weigh the risks before deciding which direction you go for safety when it comes to chambered round with safety or no chambered round without a safety. Or you can risk life, limb, and family with a chambered round and no safety.

But, for the ultimate safety in a loaded and ready-to-fire bedroom weapon, I suggest a revolver with an empty chamber under the hammer. Taurus makes an 8-round .357 revolver that should, even with only 7 rounds loaded, be enough to stop any home invasion gang I have heard of. If it doesn't stop them, then at least by the time the revolver is empty, you should have a couple seconds to grab that AK, chamber a round and check the safety.

Keeping a handgun in an already opened nightstand drawer is good - the handgun can't fall or get knocked to the floor when you reach for it as it might on top of the headboard or on top of the nightstand.

My headboard has a bookshelf and the mattress is a little higher than the shelf. The shelf is divided into small widths that give me a safe place to keep a handgun where I can find it quickly if I need it without fear of accidentally knocking it to the floor while reaching and without having it under the covers to get tangled in sheets.

KI.W.
February 10, 2008, 12:08 PM
Some thing for home defence?

http://splodetv.com/video/hot-women-smoking-barrels.

SwampWolf
February 10, 2008, 04:15 PM
Why an empty chamber under the hammer?

dalepres
February 10, 2008, 08:47 PM
Why an empty chamber under the hammer?

Well, that seems like a trolling question since I would expect a senior member here to know the answer. If you have comments on the idea, you should just post them.

But the answer is that some revolvers, particularly single-actions, can fire when dropped on the hammer. And some mechanical failures of guns designed not to fire when dropped on the hammer could theoretically cause them to fire. It is a manufacturer's recommended safety procedure for virtually all revolvers, old or new, single or double-action.

On most modern revolvers it is a peace of mind option that leaves your weapon safe yet ready to fire. I'm pretty comfortable with 7 rounds of .357 in a self-defense situation.

SwampWolf
February 11, 2008, 03:14 PM
Well, no, it's not a "trolling question". The question was asked because I thought you might have some logical reason for keeping a modern Taurus da revolver partially loaded for self-defense purposes. Since even "junior" members should know that almost all modern da revolvers are perfectly safe with a round stored under the chamber, I offered "no comments on the idea".

But, since you asked, I think it's a bad idea. If you plan on using a handgun to protect yourself or your loved ones, it's a good idea to keep a modern da revolver loaded to its full capacity. As a leo for thirty years, I can assure you that no officer in my agency or any other agency to my knowledge ever carried a revolver partially loaded or a semi-auto without a round in the chamber. There is no practical safety advantage in keeping the chamber of a modern da revolver empty under the hammer. There is obviously a tactical disadvantage in keeping a self-defense weapon partially loaded when there's no good reason to.

If it makes you feel safer to employ that practice, you are obviously free to do so. I only hope you don't end up with a "click" someday when you really, really need another "bang". :)

dalepres
February 14, 2008, 09:52 PM
I agree with everything you said. Since you're a 30 year LEO, obviously you know more than I do on the subject. I may add that 8th round to my revolver... maybe.

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