[AJAX22]

Being 'on vacation' i.e. done with school but still not employed I was being a bum yesterday and surfing various gun auctions looking for something neat and came across this:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=88887035

I don't know for certain, but this MIGHT be a real Browning Citori Lightning 12 gauge.

Its rough, but I won't know how rough untill I see it in person.

I was originally looking at it because I figued, hey a cheap over under gun that I won't feel bad about cutting down to a 18 inch barreled 26 inch overal length hogs leg.

but... a little part of me is wondering if it could be restored....

A browning over under is a much nicer shotgun than I could afford on a student budget, and if this can be saved... welll... who knows.

I just wanted to show it off to everyone :D

http://san1.atlanta.gbhinc.com/GB/088887000/88887035/pix1564666921.jpg
http://san1.atlanta.gbhinc.com/GB/088887000/88887035/pix1564666531.jpg
http://san1.atlanta.gbhinc.com/GB/088887000/88887035/pix1564666843.jpg
http://san1.atlanta.gbhinc.com/GB/088887000/88887035/pix1564666765.jpg

*edit* according to the links from armedbear, its a 1955 browning superposed lightning

[MCgunner]

I would at least TRY to restore it. There are stock makers out there. I don't know how bad the pitting is, but I'd just hate to see a hack job on a browning. LOL

[Cougfan2]

The way it locks up, it looks like a Superposed.

[ArmedBear]

The way it locks up, it looks like a Superposed.

Agreed.

If it can be restored, it would be worth doing.

A shame that a Superposed was allowed to get that messed up.

Here's one place to find the parts you'd need: http://www.midwestgunworks.com/page/mgwi/ctgy/browning-superposed

If it IS restorable, I wouldn't cut down a Superposed. A Citori, sure, but not a Superposed.:)

[AJAX22]

I am unfamilliar with the superposed, is that in the same family/league as the citori? what is the difference?

I really know nothing about over unders other than they typically are wayyyy outside my price range.

*edit* I just took a look at what parts cost for these things..... wow... I had no idea stocks were that expensive.

Will citori wood fit on a superposed? what is interchangable?

I may be scavanging around for some used parts to finish this, it could be a bit more of a long term project than I had intended.

[ArmedBear]

The Citori is a cheapened Japanese knockoff of the Superposed.

Same family, different league.

Here's a quick description. Since 1975, it's been a Custom Shop item only.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/browning_superposed_shotguns.htm

Here are serial numbers and dates: http://www.browning.com/services/dategun/detail.asp?id=42

This is the Superposed Lightning:
http://www.gunsport.com/Browning_Sup_Lgtg_20ga_28_bbl.jpg

[AJAX22]

Thanks ArmedBear,

That is definitly it, the serial number puts it as a 1955 Superposed

I was having difficulty trying to figure out what year it was looking at the citori numbers.

This means it gets to come in on my C&R licence instead of having to go through an 01 FFL. Thanks!!

They really are beautifull all togeather aren't they?

[Cougfan2]

The original Superposed's were all Belgian made guns and are some of the finest examples of John Browning's brilliance. When Brownings started being made in Japan, Miroku originally made a direct copy of the Superposed. I owned one for a few years. The Citori is a later design that was not as expensive to manufacture and didn't require some of the custom fitting of the Superposed design.

[ArmedBear]

I made the mistake of borrowing one in 98% condition for a while. I tried to buy it from the guy, but he wouldn't sell it. Balance is wonderful, it shot like a dream, and over 40 years old, it worked like new.

Like the Citori, the 12 Gauge Superposed is a bit heavy for field use, but man it would blast clay targets like nothing else. I know someone else with a 20/28 combo in 99.9% condition. It's an incredible gun, but it's a bit too nice to take in the field, sadly. It was his grandfather's. It belongs in the field hunting birds, but it'd be obscene to scratch it up, especially with the high-grade walnut on it.

[Cougfan2]

ArmedBear, I hear ya. My Miroku was actually a really nice shotgun, but again after carrying it a couple of days pheasant hunting, I think my arms were 2" longer. I would still shoot it in the duck blind on occaision, but mostly relegated it to the Trap field. Same thing with the Citori I have now. It's a clay bustin' machine, but not too pleasant to carry for a full day in the field.

[AJAX22]

Well, it does seem like this would be a nice gun to restore if possible, I am just a bit worried about the barrels/rib

Is working on these something that can be done yourself? Can any good gunsmith do it, or are there smiths who specialize in this sort of thing? how much does something like that run?

I had thought that the shotgun was just stamped with brownings name, I didn't realise that this was his last design. I am a huge fan of JMB, and the idea of this project has me much more excited than I had anticipated.

Even if this is made nice, it still won't be so pretty that it can't go into the field.

[PJR]

It is possible to restore any gun in theory. All you need is enough money to do the job and someone willing to do it.

I hate to pour cold water on your dreams but judging from these pictures, the cost of restoring this "gun" by someone reasonably competent would most likely be well in excess of the price of a nice condition Superposed. Standard grade, 12 gauge Superposeds aren't rare or even all that desirable.

It's your gun to do as you wish but IMO a dollar spent on this thing would be a dollar wasted. Sorry but that's how I see it.

[ArmedBear]

A nice condition Superposed is not exactly cheap, but PJR is right about having someone restore it.

I was thinking only of a DIY job, and that would depend on the facilities, tools and skills you have or can get. I know someone who restores guns that look like that or worse; however, he does it for fun, not profit.

You could put a few hundred bucks into it (wood and parts), and a LOT of work, and if you're lucky you might have a gun like one you'd have to pay $1000-1500 for, depending on how well it cleans up and how well you do the work. However, you could earn a lot more in the amount of time it will take. It might be fun, though.

[Cougfan2]

+1 to ArmedBear and PJR.

[Striker]

AJAX,

Are you in NoVA by chance? If so, I may be able to link you up with someone who might attempt a refinish. He does restorations, is reasonable, and in the better then average category in his work. He will also tell you if it's worth doing.

[rcmodel]

Beware of any evidence of fire damage on that one.

If it was in a fire, all the heat-treating is toast!
It won't be safe to fire it, no matter what it eventually looks like.

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j219/rcmodel/KTOG/1224.gif
rcmodel

[ArmedBear]

Good point rc

[Cougfan2]

Just for info's sake, check out the gunbroker link.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=89602782

[AJAX22]

Well I guess it looks like I get to have quite the learning experiance.

I'm adept with tools, and I keep my own guns running by myself, I just have zero experiance with higher end shotguns and I suspect that it takes a compleatly different skillset than what I'm used to using.

however, I'm a quick learner, and I'm only into these for $102 so even if I botch it, the learning experiance will be a cheap one.

I don't have much in the way of a shop or tools, but many of my friends do and they are usually ok with me working on my toys at their shops.

The worst case scenario with this gun is still prety good.

Thanks for all the help

*Edit* I'm actually located in the peoples republic of CA

[ArmedBear]

A gun you've built or rebuilt with your own two hands will always mean more to you than one you buy from the store, even if the storebought one is really nice.

[Z71]

Yes, like Rcmodel says. Beware of fire damage.

If it's been burn't very bad could have un-soldered the barrels, damaged the metal temper/hardness!

I restored a Remington 1100 for a fellow that had been in a truck fire. Didn't hurt it too bad mechanicaly, but about ruined the blue finish, had charred the wood, but not burned it clear off. Gun was fine with new wood.

But if you suspect it's been burned bad, it's a wall hanger!

Gun don't look burned though, or if it was, maybe just heavily singed, like the mentioned Remington.

I forgot to mention. By the the time I bought a set of factory walnut stocks, new Remington barrel, polished and reblued the action/magtube, cleaned gun totaly, and replaced the plastic buffers in the bolt, the fellow could have easily purchased a new Remington 1100. Just the cost of the parts was equivelent to a good used 1100. But it was his gun, a gift, as I remember, and he wanted it back fresh.

The economics of a Browning o/u rebuild might be more favorable, but I dougbt it. The task will have to be a labor of love!

[PJR]

however, I'm a quick learner, and I'm only into these for $102 so even if I botch it, the learning experiance will be a cheap one.
Famous last words.

In addition to what you can see from the photos and the description on Gunbroker there are some things you can't see. Firstly, there is no trigger guard/tang. They are available from Numrich for $192.70. Then you'll need the screws for the trigger guard. There are two. Just under $8.00 apiece.

There is also no sign of forend iron. Just the bracket alone is $269.30 and then there are other parts you'll need. After you get them you'll need the wood. To work properly it needs to be fitted to the iron.

As for those barrels that are coming apart and the rib that is totally pooched, well now life gets interesting as you contemplate replacing and soldering the top and side ribs.

And that is just what can be seen from the pictures. No doubt there are additional problems further inside. There always are.

How's your bank account looking now?

I think you get the picture and that is only the tip of the iceberg.

[ArmedBear]

It helps to have a junk drawer that has all those parts already in it, PJR.:)

And a machine shop.

Both of which my friend has. Actually, three machine shops, two commercial ones he and his brother own, and one small play shop at his house.

Yeah, maybe it would be better to clean up the parts and sell them to others who have Superposeds...:)

[AJAX22]

As an absolute worst case scenario, I can still cobble it togeather into firing condition, I can make it work with home fabricated parts, I just can't make it look pretty that way.

I'd prefer to make it nice, but if Its not an economic option I can still turn it into the nicest hogs leg around.

Thats a fallback plan though, as I think I'd like to restore it as nice as I can.


Parts show up every now and then inexpensivly, I just need to keep my eyes peeled and not be in any kind of a hurry

[axeman_g]

Ajax...

I hate to say it... but you might want to reconsider and and sell it off for what you paid for it to someone here. Please do not cobble it togther or make a hogleg out of it... I am begging you.

The Superposed was the first great O/U... JMB's masterpiece of design, finished by his son. Supers are treasured works of engneering art. Not just guns. This in not some Stevens 311 (a great gun) or Bubba'ed 870... this is a Superposed. If it was a Citori... have at it, but once again.. it is not. Like finding a burnt out Ferrari 250 SWB in a garage and installing a Honda engine and Volkswagen Dune Buggy Parts... Find someone that wants it.

Personally, I know I am to broke to do that gun justice to bring it back to it's former glory and I make a good living. The wood alone could and should run $800 for claro. The works is exceedingly technical on that gun, the barrel selector mechnism alone is a masterpeice of a pain in the arse.

Please... see if someone with the finances and or the skills needed wants to take it on, take the $100 and put it towards good coach gun.

Sorry if I sound preachy, but this struck a nerve.

[AJAX22]

no worries axman, the only way I'd make it into a chopped gun is if there were absolutly no way to save the barrels (for instance if they were bulged, cracked etc)

I don't mind a project that takes 20 years to do right, I can be quite patient when It comes to firearms.

I'll post more pics when it shows up. it would be nice to get some opinions on the barrels condition and wether or not it is salvagable.

Thanks.

[2RCO]

Ajax as a Superposed nut myself. I have blasted away considerable amounts on the old girls to get ones in top condition. A shooter condition 12ga will run you $900. That being said it will cost you more than 900 to fix this one. O/U's are not a gun for amateurs to work on. My suggestion to you is to part it out or sell it to someone as is you should be able to make a profit.

From the looks of that gun the barrels are most likely pitted to heck.

[AJAX22]

She was waiting for me when I got home tonite.... The gun definitly looks salvagable (even to my untrained eyes) I'll lube it and run a patch down the bore and see how bad it is over the weekend (I got a new job this week so time is scarce)

pics on next update!!!

[Dave McCracken]

Great. Keep us posted....

[AJAX22]

I couldn't get the camera from work, so these are not the best pics, but here they are.

I checked it over, no heavy pitting, and the barrels have just started to have the sodder flow out, my gunsmith said they should be ok to put back togeater.

because of the damage to the rib, he was all for the idea of cutting it down (all damage occurs after 18 inches) and re-soddering it.

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u115/Ratduster77/th_DCP_0520.jpg (http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u115/Ratduster77/DCP_0520.jpg)
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u115/Ratduster77/th_DCP_0517.jpg (http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u115/Ratduster77/DCP_0517.jpg)
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u115/Ratduster77/th_DCP_0515.jpg (http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u115/Ratduster77/DCP_0515.jpg)
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u115/Ratduster77/th_DCP_0514.jpg (http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u115/Ratduster77/DCP_0514.jpg)
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u115/Ratduster77/th_DCP_0513.jpg (http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u115/Ratduster77/DCP_0513.jpg)
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u115/Ratduster77/th_DCP_0512.jpg (http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u115/Ratduster77/DCP_0512.jpg)
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u115/Ratduster77/th_DCP_0511.jpg (http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u115/Ratduster77/DCP_0511.jpg)
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u115/Ratduster77/th_DCP_0510.jpg (http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u115/Ratduster77/DCP_0510.jpg)
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u115/Ratduster77/th_DCP_0509.jpg (http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u115/Ratduster77/DCP_0509.jpg)
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u115/Ratduster77/th_DCP_0508.jpg (http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u115/Ratduster77/DCP_0508.jpg)
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u115/Ratduster77/th_DCP_0507.jpg (http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u115/Ratduster77/DCP_0507.jpg)
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u115/Ratduster77/th_DCP_0503.jpg (http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u115/Ratduster77/DCP_0503.jpg)
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u115/Ratduster77/th_DCP_0502.jpg (http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u115/Ratduster77/DCP_0502.jpg)
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u115/Ratduster77/th_DCP_0500.jpg (http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u115/Ratduster77/DCP_0500.jpg)
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u115/Ratduster77/th_DCP_0499.jpg (http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u115/Ratduster77/DCP_0499.jpg)


Sorry about the image quality, I'll try to get the camera from work one of these weekends.

[axeman_g]

keep us posted... good luck on it. She is worth it.