Who carries high-end pistols?


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98C5
January 16, 2008, 09:43 AM
I'm talking custom pistols, 1911's in general. Ed Browns, Nighthawks, Les Baers, etc. that are $2000+. Are these custom pistols really made for carry or for target/show? There was one thread here (or maybe TFL)that a poster said their new Ed Brown was so tight that it took several hundred rounds to get her running smooth. (FTF to be exact.) If that is the case, would you trust it in a carry situation? What about battle scars? Would that bother you?

I, myself, really want a Nighthawk but wonder if it is more for a show piece than carry piece.

What say you?

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KINGMAX
January 16, 2008, 09:49 AM
If you shoot someone w/ it, it may be gone forever. Don't take the chance. That is why I stopped carring my S&W 686-1. I would hate to think that I would loose it.

My two primary carries = a Rossi 38 spl 5 - shot revolver as a back-up to a GLOCK 21 in 45 acp.

If anything happens to one of those, either one can be readly replaced w/out much of an issue.

Whirlwind06
January 16, 2008, 10:05 AM
Something to keep in mind if you want to carry a $2000 gun...


Damon still doesn't have his gun back. Police kept it for evidence. Tiffany said that when he asked for it, Damon was told he has to write the safety director for approval to return the gun.


http://www.cleveland.com/brett/index.ssf?/base/opinion-0/1200476007269740.xml&coll=2

geekWithA.45
January 16, 2008, 10:47 AM
Arms Heresy:

I personally just don't "get" paying more than a grand for a 1911.

The heart and soul of a 1911 is a basic, rock solid fighting pistol, not qualitatively different from the $800 price point at which all other "high end" fighting pistols such as Sigs, HKs, etc exist.

One reliable fighting pistol will function the same as any other, and any improvements in fit and finish are incremental.

I severely question the value you recieve for every dollar you pay past $1,000.

TexasRifleman
January 16, 2008, 10:49 AM
First of all, geek is right, paying that much for a 1911 is silly just on the face of it.

That said, if you believe that a $2000 1911 will enable you to potentially save your life then why in the WORLD would you not choose what you believe to be the absolute BEST protection.

Choosing to carry a cheap gun because it might be taken away is ridiculous.

My life or my families is worth $2000 certainly. If I had to lose a $2000 gun to save their life I don't think I'd worry too much about it.

If that's the criteria why aren't we all carrying Lorcins or Jennings? I mean, since they might be taken away and all that.

Soybomb
January 16, 2008, 10:53 AM
In the 1 in a million chance you actually wind up having to use your gun to defend your life, are you going to be that upset that you're still alive even if you wind up losing your $2k gun? I'd be mad on principle of course but far more glad that I was still capable of being mad.

RKBABob
January 16, 2008, 10:54 AM
Who carries high-end pistols? Rich guys! :neener:

I like my guns to be pretty, so spending $100 on a fancy set of grips may not be out of the question... but $2000+? :eek: Get real! Maybe if it was an engraved showpiece destined to become a family heirloom... but for a working gun that shoots the same exact bullets as a fugly Glock? NO. I'll spend only as much as I need to, in order to get a reliable tool... then maybe another $100 to spiffy it up.

As for losing a gun to the police evidence locker... I think that would be the least of my worries at that point!

strat81
January 16, 2008, 10:54 AM
I don't think anyone is advocating pot-metal guns.

IMO, the question seems to be: why carry a $2000+ Wilson or Baer when a sub-$1,000 Colt or Springfield will work just as well?

I don't know why. I think when you get into that price level, you're just burning cash. Which is fine if you can afford it. Kinda like asking why do people drive BMW M5s. Because they can. A Corvette is faster and cheaper, a Towncar more comfortable and cheaper.

Ditto_95
January 16, 2008, 11:32 AM
I have a couple of Ed Brown guns and a Les Baer commanche. I carry one of them whenever I can for protection.
I purchased them because I like them.
I shoot very regularly and competitively and want an attractive accurate gun. These pieces feel good in my hand, I enjoy handling them.

If I ever have to shoot someone in self defense and my weapon is not returned, I will purchase another to replace it.
I would not even consider not carrying what I practice with because I was afraid of it being taken away. I want what I consider the best I can afford to protect myself and my family.
Battle scars are just that. If it gets scratched while I am training with it then it is a character mark. I would not expect to keep my working guns in pristine condition.

bigmike45
January 16, 2008, 12:01 PM
Because like the ladies say about their hair color chemicals "Im Worth It". I have shot everything from the cheapest 1911 on the market to my Wilson Combat Professional. I am definately not "Rich" but through some creative trasing and saving lots of my mad money, I bought, as far as I am concerned, one of the best out there. It does everything I paid for out of the box and when my life depends on it I only want the best....something I can trust, without any doubt. This is just my personal opinion but anyone carrying a gun ,should get the best gun they can afford when using it to defend their very lives or those of loved ones.

Seiko
January 16, 2008, 12:14 PM
I carry a custom 1911 almost every day. You don't have to be rich to carry a $4000 gun, you just have to have your priorities right :)

You guys seem to think that Wilson and Les Baer are customs. They are not. They are high end production guns anymore. True custom guns cost alot more then $2000.... Look at some of Chuck Rogers, or any of the Louder then Words guys. That is true custom guns. Id rather spend $4000 with any of them guys, then $3000 on a high end production gun..

Ash
January 16, 2008, 12:28 PM
I trust my $300 EAA Witness with my life. It has never jammed on me. Ever. Never failed in any way. I thought I might end up trusting my $300 CZ-75, which also has never failed in any way, but when push came to shove, I chose the EAA.

So in what way will the $4,000 gun be better?

Ash

bigmike45
January 16, 2008, 12:39 PM
Please dont misunderstand me, I have nothing against less expensive guns, especially those that work flawlessly, consistiently. I carry a $250.00 Taurus PT-145 as a back up for my Wilson. I just prefer a gun with a little more attention to details. I also carry an XD45 and CZ75B, and even a couple of Ruger revolvers. I have yet to experience any problems with any of them. I still prefer to carry my nice Wilson. Some folks drive a Rolls Royce because it is a status symbol of the rich and successful and some deive it because of the way it is built, by hand, not on an assembly line, and that's why it is more expensive.

tex

gym
January 16, 2008, 12:48 PM
Once your gun is taken by law enforcement, you can assume it is gone, and will be very lucky to get it back, and if you do, it might take a year or two. I speak from experience. And I speak of legally owned guns, not criminals, since they already know that they aren't getting thier gun back, How much money is your life worth?

weisse52
January 16, 2008, 01:08 PM
Once you reach a certain point with a high-end pistol it is all about detail. Not sure if that is $1000 or above or what. I have carried a G19 for the reason that if it was taken from me by LE I would not mourn its passing. The Glock has been 100% reliable and I think I paid about $490 a few years ago.

But that is me. I think you should carry what you are comfortable with. If that is a $4000 supergun then fine, it it is a $150 beater, then that is your choice as well.

No one should have to justify to anyone but themselves what they carry and why. And no one should have to justify why they spend their money. That should only matter to them and their family.

Landor
January 16, 2008, 01:27 PM
my life or my families is worth $2000 certainly. If I had to lose a $2000 gun to save their life I don't think I'd worry too much about it.

So is mine, that's is why I carry four G19's that have never failed. That's 64 rounds. :)

CountGlockula
January 16, 2008, 01:28 PM
I have the most expensive Glock. The Glock model 35.

As for custom, I have Trijicon night sights on it. Plus 3.5lb. connector and NY1 trigger spring.

Firepower!
January 16, 2008, 01:32 PM
Just for the kicks....My GLOCK 26 which is a 500$ pistol in the US, I paid 6000 US$ for in Pakistan, and so did I for My 19, and HK P2000. I guess that hid end here. On the other hand I have Sticken which is 4000 US$ here but 20K in the US.

bruss01
January 16, 2008, 01:33 PM
It's pathetically easy to buy a $500 gun that works reliably every time. The occasional "lemon" aside, what's wrong with a CZ or an XD or a Glock or a right out of the box Rock Island 1911 or any kind of decent revolver? Will they not launch lead in a credible manstopping size and do it all the time? Of course they will! So the real question is, what do you shoot well? What "works" for you? What do you have confidence in? Those are people questions, not gun questions. If you want a "nicer" gun to tote around than the ones mentioned above, it is for people reasons, not gun reasons.

I have some "nice" guns in my safe. Oh, of course I trust them all to go bang. They're accurate as well as reliable, and oh so pretty. But frankly, when I've wanted/needed something on tap for real defense, I've always chosen either my Ruger P345 (.45 ACP) or my Charter Bulldog (.44 special) and occasionally the Ruger GP-100 (.357 magnum). Got fancier guns, sure - got NICER guns, sure - got more expensive guns, oh heck yeah... But nothing that can get the job done better than these and I sweat a lot less knowing if I get a scratch, chip or dent in them, or worse, if they're confiscated after a real-life shooting, I won't be crying in my beer over a lost "valuable" firearm.

For me, my nice guns have always been like my dress shoes. I bring them out on special occasions, but they are too nice to muck up with everyday wear and tear.

1 old 0311
January 16, 2008, 02:04 PM
Well I keep a Korth as a 'Truck Gun.':neener:

possom813
January 16, 2008, 02:41 PM
Once your gun is taken by law enforcement, you can assume it is gone, and will be very lucky to get it back, and if you do, it might take a year or two. I speak from experience. And I speak of legally owned guns, not criminals, since they already know that they aren't getting thier gun back, How much money is your life worth?

A long story could be told here, but I'll just give out the cliff's notes.

About 8 years ago I bought a Norinco SKS. Fully loaded, synthetic stock, 30rd mag, bipod, red dot scope, you know, everything that makes it an evil black gun.

I kept it in my truck most of the time, because I like to shoot it a lot. One night, it was taken out of my truck by a former friend of mine. Evidently he had gotten into a fight with several guys and got his butt kicked.

Long story short, he dumped the mag at a gas station where a lot of the guys were. He didn't hit any of them(he later said he was aiming high). My gun got taken away because of that and it took almost 3 years to get it back.

My brother had 2 of his guns taken away last year. A longer story goes into that, and he should have had a better lawyer. The DA let me take possession of the guns when the hearing was over and I just ended up buying them from my brother.

In 1981, someone broke into our fab shop here at the house. I was still in the belly of my mom who was laid up in bed. My dad heard the noise and went outside with his .357(Security Six, I believe). The BG in the shop came at my dad with an axe and dad shot him 3 times. The gun was taken away and the BG's family tried to sue us for wrongful death. Dad got a good lawyer and beat it. He got the .357 back about 5 months after the incident, but had bought one identical to it while the original was in impound. He sold the original and gave me the new one for my 20th birthday.

I don't know how it is every where else, but at least where I'm at common sense usually prevails and once it's established that you're the good guy.

-John

taliv
January 16, 2008, 03:08 PM
my every day carry is a wilson supergrade compact (purchased prior to the nighthawk split). it has about 7500 rounds through it. it takes a beating. I shoot it in matches and in classes. why shouldn't I? i'm not a collector. i bought it to shoot.

just my opinion here, but I've never shot a colt/springfield/rockisland etc factory gun with a trigger that's even in the same league with wilson's. (for that matter, I've yet to feel a les baer or ed brown trigger that was as good as wilson's) it makes a difference to me.

I will say that i agree in principle with geek45, but I put the diminishing returns dollar amount at $1800 or so, instead of $1000. After you go past $2000 or so, you're mostly paying for all the hand-stippling and stuff that is a work of art, but not significantly more functional than $5 worth of skateboard tape.

spiroxlii
January 16, 2008, 03:48 PM
I'm a new permit holder, and my carry weapon is a Bersa Thunder 9 Ultra Compact. It's $300. My girlfriend's carry weapon is a Bersa Thunder 380. It's $200.

We aren't cheap. We just know that if we ever use our guns to defend ourselves, we're going to lose them. We made sure we were getting reliable weapons, but we couldn't justify spending $500 or $2000 per handgun on student budgets. We could've gone cheaper, and there are other guns in our price range we could've bought, but like I said... we're not cheap. Price wasn't our only deciding factor. It was price AND reliability.

I want to make sure that my carry weapon is reliable, practical, and not of historical or sentimental value to me. I plan to buy several milsurp handguns in the near future. I will not carry them, because even though they will be both inexpensive and reliable, they will have historical value. I have some handguns that my father gave me. I will not carry them, because even though they're inexpensive and reliable, they have sentimental value to me. I do one day hope to own an expensive custom handgun. It will be a range toy, not a carry weapon, because it will be too expensive to risk losing when my Bersa or other reliable carry weapon is a viable alternative.

Ditto_95
January 16, 2008, 04:36 PM
"Well I keep a Korth as a 'Truck Gun."

I want to ride with you man!

biscuitninja
January 16, 2008, 04:41 PM
I was intending my USPc to be my carry gun, but the more I think about it, I would probably just get a Makarov. My buddy carries one and has collected them for decades, talk about a simple, easy to use and reliable pistol. Its not super powerful, but it seems to do the job. It would be nice to carry a nice pistol, but the chance of it being impounded and some police officer "recovering" it from impound is just too much to bear. So I keep the safe queens where they are and got a nice C&R lisc. Goodluck
-bix

Vanzpp
January 16, 2008, 04:42 PM
To me, there's only one reason to carry a $2-$3K 1911 or any type of gun that's so expensive--if you're competing in IPSC, IDPA or any other competition for big $$$$ where small fractions of an inch count.

For self-defense? A Glock will do just fine. No reason to spend that type of money on a self-defense tool.

bigmike45
January 16, 2008, 05:39 PM
It all comes down to what you want.

Some folks are willing to pay more for the ride, power and prestige of a Cadillac, Lincon, Lexus, etc. Why....because they feel they deserve it. Would it get them to their destination any quicker or better...probably not but they would travel in much more comfort getting there. Why do people fly first class on the same plane as people fly coach. Service, comfort, they dont pay for drinks out of their pockets though they pay for it in the initial ticket cost.
Why do I carry a $2000 Wilson 4" Stainless Professional when a Springfield 4" Champion will shoot the same ammunition. One guarantees 1.5" groups @ 25 yards. Mine will actually shoot better in a Ransom Rest. When I cycle the slide it's like it is rolling on lubricated ball bearings. The fit of the slide to frame is like nothing I have ever seen on less costly guns, The trigger is amazing, no creep and breaks like glass at 4.5lbs. It has zero MIM parts, which is not a big issue to me, but part of the cost and something I can trust in the long haul.

I have never felt that having this gun elevates me above any other gun owner, I just feel I have a higher quality, more refined firearm than I ever had with other guns in the past. Now that I have this Wilson, and have seen what it is capable of in accuracy and reliability.....I would gladly buy another.
As other guns have come and gone from my collection, the Wilson will not ever be sold or traded.

vanzpp wrote:
To me, there's only one reason to carry a $2-$3K 1911 or any type of gun that's so expensive--if you're competing in IPSC, IDPA or any other competition for big $$$$ where small fractions of an inch count.

For self-defense? A Glock will do just fine. No reason to spend that type of money on a self-defense tool.

I personally feel that defending my life is much more important that any competiton, where my life is worth much more than any $$$$ that I could win in a competition. That being said I feel that small fractions off target, if I have to shoot a BG using another person as a body shield coud be a matter of life & death, and there is another reason to spend that kind of money on a gun that I know will provide me that kind of accuracy.

CWL
January 16, 2008, 06:10 PM
I do. My primary is a M1911 custom built to my personal specifications with no compromises. It incorporates everything I've learned about SD pistols over the past 20 years + plus that of my smith. My gun costs a lot of $$ because it was 100% built by an American Craftsman.

Why? Because I can.

I have plenty of out-of-box guns, nothing wrong with them at all. I just prefer guns built to fit my hand.

Vanzpp
January 16, 2008, 06:13 PM
I personally feel that defending my life is much more important that any competiton, where my life is worth much more than any $$$$ that I could win in a competition. That being said I feel that small fractions off target, if I have to shoot a BG using another person as a body shield coud be a matter of life & death, and there is another reason to spend that kind of money on a gun that I know will provide me that kind of accuracy.

That's certainly your opinion....but if small fractions of an inch were that important, it seems to me that cops all over the country would be carrying Wilsons, Les Baers, etc...

But they're not. Most carry Glocks, Sigs, or something of that nature. If it's good enough to defend a cop's life, it's good enough for me.

CWL
January 16, 2008, 06:22 PM
Vanzpp,

You will notice that Tactical officers usually get to choose their sidearms while patrol officers stick with issue guns (lowest bid). Modern police policy is for 'patrol' officers to call for tactical response rather than get involved in any armed encounters if at all possible.

There is a great difference of weapons & training between those trained to engage-in and win firefights than those who are expected to call for back-up. If the Agency allows it, you will find that many LEOs do indeed purchase & carry customized guns.

98C5
January 16, 2008, 07:04 PM
Thanks Bigmike & CWL, those are the answers I was looking for. Do you all worry about scratching them or bumping them against hard objects? I mean for $2000, I would be super-cautious carrying them. BTW, any pics? I'd love to see those.

98

spiroxlii
January 16, 2008, 07:10 PM
Cheap Guns are Good Enough by Massad Ayoob (http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles/ayoob62.html)

The last time I carried my $3500 custom pistol in uniform was a couple of years ago. I and some other officers were working security for a double police funeral where it was feared that the cop-killer—who himself was slain by police on the day of the murders—might have friends who would want to avenge him by harming any of the several thousand police officers in attendance for the funeral. We who covered the perimeter were ordered that we couldn’t have rifles evident, for fear of people being frightened and made paranoid. I carried that expensive .45 pistol that day because I knew that with 185-grain +P hollowpoints, it would hit what I aimed at from 100 yards if something went down in the wide-open venues that ranged from a downtown cortege to the burial at the equally wide-open cemetery.

Nothing happened. The cop-killer, it turned out, had been a lone wolf. After it was over, I went to the firing range and tested my department issue Ruger P90 .45 automatic. It shot eight rounds for eight into a man-size target at 100 yards. It would have done the job all along.

CWL
January 16, 2008, 07:37 PM
98C5, here's a link to a posting about my custom m1911.

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=323681

I do not worry about wear, scratches or dings as this is a 'business' gun first and a 'BBQ' gun second. It will see plenty of hard use training over the next few decades. Personally, I'd be more cautious of someone with a well-worn gun than someone with a mint-condition one.

Of the 7 M1911 pistols I own, only 2 are stock (Colt Govt. & Colt Commander) while the others are either straight custom/semi-custom guns or have had some sort of professional smith modifications. All the features or "mods" are purely combat enhancements, not for gaming.

Vanzpp
January 16, 2008, 07:54 PM
Modern police policy is for 'patrol' officers to call for tactical response rather than get involved in any armed encounters if at all possible.

I don't doubt that that's true. If, as a civilian, I ever find myself in a hostage rescue situation or being forced to shoot someone who is holding someone else in front of them as a human shield, I'll probably throw my Glock out the window and say : "Darn it....I should have bought a Wilson!!!" :banghead:

:D

Ash
January 16, 2008, 08:10 PM
Seems like a fair amount of bluster in here.

Ash

Javelin
January 16, 2008, 08:13 PM
$600 is an expensive firearm to me....

:)

Chuck R.
January 16, 2008, 08:34 PM
I carry a just shy of 2K modded Les Baer.

I guess because "I can", plain and simple.

Some folks will never grasp the concept of "needs vs. wants" and they look at others choices based on their own values. That's fine, but when it comes to disposable income one size doesn't fit all.

As far as your CCW being taken away, yes it could happen. Probably a good way to look at it is: never bet, invest, nor carry anything you can't afford to lose.

Chuck

Vanzpp
January 16, 2008, 08:47 PM
As far as your CCW being taken away, yes it could happen. Probably a good way to look at it is: never bet, invest, nor carry anything you can't afford to lose.

That's true. If you ever have to shoot in self-defense, your gun will be confiscated and thrown into an evidence locker. You'd be lucky to ever get the gun back.

SAWBONES
January 16, 2008, 08:52 PM
All my guns are "high-end". Carry what works best for you, irrespective of what it cost.

Phydeaux642
January 16, 2008, 09:01 PM
Well I keep a Korth as a 'Truck Gun.

I want to know what kind of truck that Korth sits in.:neener:

_____________________

"Phydeaux, bad dog....no biscuit!"

CWL
January 17, 2008, 03:00 AM
That's true. If you ever have to shoot in self-defense, your gun will be confiscated and thrown into an evidence locker. You'd be lucky to ever get the gun back.

Are you sure? Have you ever had that happen to you?

Even if true, the loss of a firearm would be the last thing on my mind if I survived a SD shooting. Besides, the cost of my gun wouldn't come close to what I have spent in ammunition and training costs over the years.

Still goes back to "I carry what I want". The purpose of this board is to promote responsible gun ownership... not passing judgement on other people because they don't choose the same gun as you.

C-grunt
January 17, 2008, 04:41 AM
My dad caries a Kimber Gold Medal Match with new combat sights and a custom trigger job. Why? Because he shoots the best with it. I think he sold his other two handguns (Glock and XD).

I carry a Glock 22 because 1) its a good self defense gun 2) Im pretty good with it 3) I have to carry a "qualified gun" per my departments policy and 4) you cant beat free 180 grain Federal HST's.
http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb166/sweethrtfreak/100_1472.jpg

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb166/sweethrtfreak/100_1473.jpg

sgtdevildog
January 17, 2008, 07:12 AM
I would have to echo what others have said. I carry my EB everyday. I carry because anything can happen in this crazy world. I carry an EB because I shoot it well, it's reliable and I can count on it 100%. The lives of myself and my family are worth defending at any price - and if the tool is confisgated or lost I would replace it with another that I could shoot well, is reliable and can count on 100%.

bigmike45
January 17, 2008, 07:18 AM
Thanks Bigmike & CWL, those are the answers I was looking for. Do you all worry about scratching them or bumping them against hard objects? I mean for $2000, I would be super-cautious carrying them. BTW, any pics? I'd love to see those.

98

98,

Not mine....it's a tool, I just happen to know the value of the better tools. Tools get dinged, scratched, dropped & broken from use some time. If mine were to get too bad I would send it back to Wilson to have it re-beadblasted. I guess I just dont think like some of the others here. If my gun gets taken away, for evidence, in a justifiable shooting, and I dont get it back, then I consider the tool having done what I purchased it for. I would probably go out an buy another, why???? Not trying to be conceited, but because I'm worth it!!!

But they're not. Most carry Glocks, Sigs, or something of that nature. If it's good enough to defend a cop's life, it's good enough for me.

Both Glock & SIG give deeeeep discounts to law enforcement, and for the most part that is why they are carried. I have two LEO's that work for me, part time, on their days off. Both would much rather carry something else, if their departments would allow it. I have a friend that is a Texas Department of Public Safety Trooper, and the SIG he carries is definately not his choice as a personal defense firearm. I have been at the range with some of my LEO friends and every one of them loves to shoot my Wilson and several have commented that if they were allowed to choose their own guns, they would carry one like it.

I don't doubt that that's true. If, as a civilian, I ever find myself in a hostage rescue situation or being forced to shoot someone who is holding someone else in front of them as a human shield, I'll probably throw my Glock out the window and say : "Darn it....I should have bought a Wilson!!!"
If I were carrying one of my other guns, and I were in such a situation, I would use what ever I was carrying and try to do my best with it. Would I wish I had my Wilson??? Absolutely....because I know what it is capable of and what I am capable of doing with it in my hand. I'm not here trying to make anyone a convert to one of the high end guns that are out there. Hell...until I shot a Wilson, that a buddy has, I never would have thought of getting one. If you are confident in your weapon, to cycle without any failures, shoot to point of aim consistiently, and make you smile when you look at it. That is the perfect weapon for you!!

bigmike45

LKB3rd
January 17, 2008, 07:23 AM
I trust my $300 EAA Witness with my life. It has never jammed on me. Ever. Never failed in any way. I thought I might end up trusting my $300 CZ-75, which also has never failed in any way, but when push came to shove, I chose the EAA.

So in what way will the $4,000 gun be better?

Ash

If someone likes it better, it is better. You probably wouldn't like it better, so in your case, i'd say your $300 dollar gun is better for you.
I play guitar, and read the forums on them. A lot of times, people will pop in and ask "which guitar is better A or B. Which one sounds better?" The answer is, the one you like better, and the one that makes YOU smile when you hear it.

Double Naught Spy
January 17, 2008, 07:41 AM
If you shoot someone w/ it, it may be gone forever. Don't take the chance. That is why I stopped carring my S&W 686-1. I would hate to think that I would loose it.


Worrying about losing a gun because I used it to save my life or the life of a loved one is just plain silly. Such events are VERY rare.

I don't know how it is elsewhere, but we get our guns back in Texas.

To me, there's only one reason to carry a $2-$3K 1911 or any type of gun that's so expensive--if you're competing in IPSC, IDPA or any other competition for big $$$$ where small fractions of an inch count.

For self-defense? A Glock will do just fine. No reason to spend that type of money on a self-defense tool.

IPSC and IDPA may be worth spending more on doing than protecting your life. I guess it all comes down to how you value things.

Sorry, it just seems silly to say that you are happy spending big bucks on competition, but aren't willing to spend the same on your life. Yes, a Glock will do. Any reliable gun will do, regardless of cost, but phrased how you phrased things, I just had to laugh.

I had a guy show up to shoot once that went through a production of taking the Kel-Tec out of his pocket and putting it in the trunk of his car and then retrieving a Colt National Match, holster, mag pouches, etc. The shooting session was for self defense drills. When I asked what he was doing, he said he wanted to shoot a gun that he could shoot well, hence the Colt. When I asked about the Kel-Tec, he said it was meant to be carried a lot and shot a little. So I asked how often he carried the Colt. He said never as it was too expensive to carry and lose to the cops if he was in a shooting and that he only carried his Kel-Tec. FYI, it was a P32. So here we had a guy who had the means to carry a better quality product and a larger caliber for self defense, but carried one of the cheapest semi-autos because of the very rare chance he might have to defend his life and lose the gun to the cops.

Silly silly silly

Ash
January 17, 2008, 08:18 AM
But...

I am a Forester who does my work in the woods. I drive a Jeep Cherokee that gets scratched up and beat up in the woods. At 230,000 miles, it is not worth a whole lot but I rely on it to get me in and out. Do you say that, because I have another Jeep with far fewer miles and is worth more money that I am being silly driving the cheaper, beat up, and probably less reliable (in that at 230,000 miles, something is more likely to break on me, it has been stellar so far) Jeep? What if I owned a Humvee? Silly for driving the Jeep then?

My most valuable revolver happens to be a Colt 1849 pocket pistol. I should carry it? Of course, you do mean reliability so I'm not being obtuse in this case. But I have said EAA Witness. It is as reliable as the "BMW" guys here. At self-defense ranges, there is no practical difference in accuracy for self defense. It is 100% reliable.

So, assuming I have a race gun that cost me $4000, I would be silly for carrying said Witness? I would be saying "the life of my family and friends is not worth much because I don't carry the most expensive firearm I own?" Even though I do have that 100% reliable Witness that delivers the same energy/reliability?

Say, I had a Sig 210, an expensive single action single stack 9mm. I also have a CZ-75, a similarly designed double action double stack 9mm for considerably less by several multiples. I do have a 100% reliable CZ-75. Suppose I carried the 15 round CZ. Am I being silly for not carrying that 210?

Or, a Glock? So, I have a Rock Island 1911 that has proven 100% reliable. I also have said custom $4000 1911 that is twice as accurate but no more reliable. I am being silly to carry said Rock Island? Am I devaluing my family for that reason?

Frankly, there is no high end 1911 that is more reliable than a Glock (and this comes from a guy who HATES Glocks). You aren't buying reliability or better practical accuracy (practical being a high-anxiety shooting scenario where fine accuracy is impossible). You're going out thinking about buying that BMW. It won't actually get you to work faster or more efficiently or even more reliably (I got that 230,000 mile Jeep). But it will cost more. It is more of a status symbol. It does say "I got dough to spend."

None of that is intended to insult, but the Emperor has no clothes on that one.

Ash

Ditto_95
January 17, 2008, 08:56 AM
I drive an EB because I can and I feel I am profiecient with it. If I wanted a Glock I would have bought one.
To run people down because your values aren't the same is not very becoming to THR.

Lazuris
January 17, 2008, 09:18 AM
It’s been my experience that a lot of "gun" guys are also big "watch" guys. Now a $25 Timex will most likely tell you the same time as a $25,000 Rolex presidential so why do people buy the presidential? Because they can, because they enjoy the craftsmanship, and because it says something about the person that is subtle yet telling to those that recognize what you have. When I was younger I could not understand for the life of me why some one would spend $100,000+ plus on a car. At the time I could not even afford the insurance on something that expensive. However, as I grew older and my lifestyle changed, my price tolerance also changed to where those prices no longer seem lavish. I’m glad we live in a country where people have the choice between buying various levels of product at various price points. One thing I have learned over time is that price is relative to the buyer. And as we hopefully move up the economic ladder our reaction to those various price levels will change.

Double Naught Spy
January 17, 2008, 11:08 AM
So, assuming I have a race gun that cost me $4000, I would be silly for carrying said Witness?

No, I am saying that justifying carrying the gun because it is cheaper and hence less of a loss if you shot someone and the cops took it for a while would be silly, especially when you are willing to spend to much more money on a gun pursuit that doesn't involve personal protection. If your $4K race gun would be a good gun for self protection, I don't see why you would not carry it, but you should not carry it simply because it cost $4K either.

I just found it funny that spending for $2-3K was considered okay for a sporting endeavor but not considered okay for personal protection, as if personal protection was a less important endeavor than competition. Of course, personal protection is something I put a higher value on than recreational competition.

You should carry a gun because it is the right choice for the job (sufficient caliber, reliable, concealable, you shoot it well), not because it did or did not cost you a lot of money.

spiroxlii
January 17, 2008, 11:19 AM
Just to clarify... My girlfriend's carry gun and mine COMBINED cost $500. When I said we couldn't justify losing $1000+ handguns to the police if we were forced to defend ourselves, I didn't mean that our lives weren't worth $1000 to us. I meant that if we were forced to replace $1000+ handguns after losing them in the wake of a defense shooting, we would probably not be able to replace them with similar guns in our current financial situation.

That would either leave us unarmed until we saved enough to replace our expensive guns, or it would force us to do what we've already done and go with less expensive but reliable firearms. Since it's good to carry what you practice with, we chose to go with the inexpensive but reliable handguns from the start. That way, in the unlikely and awful event that we do have to replace them, we can get nearly identical ones to replace them without going into serious debt.

Vanzpp
January 17, 2008, 02:10 PM
Are you sure?

Positive. I took a class taught by a SWAT team member and another taught by a cop. Both stated that, if you have to shoot in self-defense anywhere outside of your domicile, you WILL be arrested and your gun WILL be confiscated. Period.

Will you get your gun back? Maybe...depending on the circumstances of the shooting, but you can't bank on it.

Vanzpp
January 17, 2008, 02:16 PM
Sorry, it just seems silly to say that you are happy spending big bucks on competition, but aren't willing to spend the same on your life. Yes, a Glock will do. Any reliable gun will do, regardless of cost, but phrased how you phrased things, I just had to laugh.


"A Glock will do. Any reliable gun will do."..my point exactly. Unless you can objectively prove that a Glock is LESS reliable than a high-end gun, there's no reason (except vanity) to spend an additional $2,000 for a self-defense gun.

Ash
January 17, 2008, 02:38 PM
Not High Road? Have a care at your admonitions. I think I have been around long enough to know what is and is not High Road. Belittling others because they are unwilling to pay $2,000 for a pistol is High Road? Come now, don't wander down that path. We can discuss things just fine without folks getting upset.

The lives of my family are worth what ever it takes. That they can be protected by my EAA Witness, which is as reliable as any other automatic mentioned here as it has never, ever failed, does not mean I value them less. I am silly in that regard.

I suppose that, since the 12 ga shotgun is ideal for home defense, I am being silly for using my $200 Mossberg pump? I have a Valmet over-under that I could use. Silly me for valuing my family at a mere $200 when I could value them at closer to $800. How callous of me for not having a Kreighoff for the job.

Of course that is not the case. Of course folks can have nice things. I am a minimalist. I have no use for some things that others term "the finer things." That makes me no less refined. I like other fine things. I wear a Poljot watch and own my own tux that I do wear at least twice a year to formal occasions. I love fine clocks and remarkably like fine china. Yet I prefer to spend my money on land. You might have a nice $100,000 car, but I have 80 acres of land for the same thing. Which will last longer? You might have a $25,000 Rolex, but I have another 20 acres. Which will last longer?

Shall I pontificate about those here who live in apartments and so do not value their families enough to buy a home? After all, apartments are more likely to be burglarized. Surely rent versus a mortgage should not get in the way of one's devotion to his family? Of course not. I will not elevate myself by putting on airs that I live in the home built by Bill Walker, who founded Bill's Dollar stores and died a multi-millionaire. I happen to live in Bill Walker's home. Or, that I was in a motorcade guided by the City of New Orleans police, who by the way stopped all Interstate 10 traffic so that the limo in which I was riding could get onto the Interstate without inconvenience? That I have slept with my wife in the corner suite of the Witney Windham hotel in down town New Orleans? Does that matter? Does it make my family more valuable? Not at all.

After Katrina, my EAA Witness provided safety to my family in Bill Walker's home. Again, folks can use what they will. A $4,000 custom 1911 can be just fine. But it will in no way perform better than my EAA in an emergency.

However, the logic of buying a piece of trash for defense against bad guys when I have said EAA at home would indeed be silly. It would make no sense to use something unreliable when I have something reliable at home. However, it also makes no sense to fret over my Mossberg being at the ready when my Valmet is in the safe.

Ash

sturmgewehr
January 17, 2008, 03:02 PM
I carry an Ed Brown Kobra Carry. I'm not worried about losing it should I need it in a fight. 1) I won't shoot someone unless I'm damn sure I'm justified and 2) if I do shoot someone the least of my worries will be my gun.

$2k or $200, they are just tools. If your concerned about the price, then you probably shouldn't own it.

Vanzpp
January 17, 2008, 03:03 PM
Shall I pontificate about those here who live in apartments and so do not value their families enough to buy a home?

Good point!!
To me, the bottom line is reliability. This "what is your life worth" stuff is bogus. This "logic" can easily be carried to an extreme.

For example, what if I spend $8,500 on a Korth semi-auto to carry around for self-defense? Does that mean I value my life more than someone who spends "only" $3,000 on a Wilson?

Jeez....

Ditto_95
January 17, 2008, 03:30 PM
ASH, you misunderstand me. My admonishment was meant the other way.
The reasons people buy what they do is never silly or dumb.
For someone to say that because I spend more money on my SD weapon is a waste of money or to say that I don't value mine or my families life because I choose not to spend big bucks on a seft defense weapon is the point.
As I stated earlier, it isn't what you shoot, its how you can perfom and how the gun performs.
I find it difficult to use a Glock but find a 1911 reassuring. My training is from the military in the 80's so I trained with the .45.

Mandirigma
January 17, 2008, 04:07 PM
Thanks Bigmike & CWL, those are the answers I was looking for. Do you all worry about scratching them or bumping them against hard objects? I mean for $2000, I would be super-cautious carrying them.

Since you are looking at a Nighthawk, I just wanted to point out a finish they offer(ed) Its called Diamond Black, its a DLC (Diamond Like Coating). when I first got mine, I actually dulled and scraped metal off of one of my knives trying to see if I could get it off. A quick wipe down and it was good as new.

to you original question. I do, sometimes. In addition to my NHC, I also carry a STI Spartan, a Glock 33, and a Glock 19 on occassion. Just depends on the day.

CWL
January 17, 2008, 04:39 PM
"A Glock will do. Any reliable gun will do."..my point exactly. Unless you can objectively prove that a Glock is LESS reliable than a high-end gun, there's no reason (except vanity) to spend an additional $2,000 for a self-defense gun.

For the record, I own 2 Glocks (G17, G22) and at one time, I've owned 3.

Why don't I shoot Glocks anymore? Because they have never fit my hand and I hate the trigger. Glocks are not the answer-all solution for everyone.

I train with Richmond (CA) SWAT Entry Team and have taken weeklong classes from people such as Jeff Gonzales and Larry Vickers. Interesting to note that they all prefer M1911 platforms.

I have also seen the vaunted Glock break during firing sessions, just like I've seen Sigs and M1911s and Beretta.

I have not seen anyone here "belittle" others if they choose cheaper firearms, the general concensus throughout this post is "carry what you want". The only "judging" I see is one person trying to impose his gun choice onto others.

Why does anyone here care about what I choose to spend MY money on?

springmom
January 17, 2008, 04:43 PM
*snort* I don't even own a high end pistol, not as it's defined here. My highest end pistol, though, is my usual carry piece, a Kimber Ultra Carry II. It wasn't cheap but it shoots accurately and reliably and I can hide it reasonably well under most clothing except in the hottest part of the summer.

If I had one of those, I think it'd be a safe queen. Maybe an unfired safe queen, just for the investment.

Springmom

Vanzpp
January 17, 2008, 05:40 PM
the general concensus throughout this post is "carry what you want".

I totally agree. I just used Glock as an example, because that's the gun I'm the most familiar with. Like I said, ANY reliable pistol will do. Reliability is the key.

But don't take my word for it--at least regarding the Glock!:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yr_cM8kvig

Ash
January 17, 2008, 06:30 PM
Then Ditto, I tip my hat to you for further explanation.

CWL, do you think I am the judge and perhaps jury? If so, rest assured I don't at all care what you carry.

Ash

Double Naught Spy
January 17, 2008, 07:39 PM
Unless you can objectively prove that a Glock is LESS reliable than a high-end gun, there's no reason (except vanity) to spend an additional $2,000 for a self-defense gun.

Now this is very silly. Just because I want to carry a high end gun and because you see there no point to it, you decide I must be carrying it because of vanity.

Sorry, but that is just plain, unsupported stupid logic.

There may be some who carry for vanity just like there are some on insist that anything more than a Glock is too much. I don't think highly of either of those lines of thought. However, the reasons for what I carry have nothing to do with vanity or price. Then why don't I carry a Glock? Because I think the triggers on Glocks suck and I don't like the grip angle.

Now if Glock made a gun smaller than my Kahr PM9 with comparable capacity, I would gladly carry the Glock because I think the Glock has a better trigger than my PM9 that I sometimes have to carry when I can't carry large.

Any reliable pistol will do so long as it meets your needs. THEREFORE, price isn't an issue, is it?

19-3Ben
January 17, 2008, 09:28 PM
My regular, every day carry gun is a 3" Ruger SP101. Cost me $460 brand new. I liked it, so I bought Hogue rubber monogrips. I liked it even more, and carried around for a year with those grips. I have taken such a liking to it that I sent it to Gemini Customs to get worked over. It's due back in the next week or two.
For me, I like nice things. The gun worked and was totally reliable in bone-stock form. But now that it will have a trigger job, chamfered cylinders, re-crowned bbl, nice grips, etc... it will shoot better and I will find it more pleasing (both esthetically and functionally). I'm a big fan of buying stock and using it in stock form for a while and THEN seeing if a gun needs to be modified.
The price isn't what's important. The important thing is finding a tool that works for YOU and fits YOUR needs.

Seiko
January 17, 2008, 09:52 PM
Unless you can objectively prove that a Glock is LESS reliable than a high-end gun, there's no reason (except vanity) to spend an additional $2,000 for a self-defense gun.

Wait a minute here!
So Glock is the only gun that is worth of carry unless you are a John Edwards $1600 hair cut getting vain ass? :)

Glock is a ok gun I own 3, but its not the end all be all only thing on the market.

Some people have spent countless rounds and hours trigger pulling other guns. I shoot probably 10,000 rounds a year out of a 1911 between IPSC and IDPA practice and matches. So Why would I ever consider carrying any other type of gun.

Most days I carry a Chuck Rogers made Springfield, a gun that cost almost as much as the car I drive. If I had to use it tomorrow the only thing that would be on my mind is what gun to send him next.

gpo1956
January 17, 2008, 10:21 PM
I've never understood people who want to slam those who spend more than they think is appropriate for a custom handgun. You carry/spend what you want and I'll carry/spend what I want. I really don't care and I'm certainly not impressed that you're too smart/frugal/tactical or whatever to spend more than a couple hundred dollars for a gun. And please step back and think before you start this "Glock is the best handgun for everybody and every situation". A couple of things that I have to keep reminding myself about gun forums is: 1) Pay attention to what people actually have to say, not how many posts they have 2) Most people should shoot more and talk less.

Ash
January 17, 2008, 10:59 PM
Veiled statements. Gotta love them. Perhaps all the statements should be read, and perhaps then it would be better if read in full. Sage advice to be sure. I suppose when a fellow begins to brag about 100,000 cars and 25,000 watches, things that really are symbols of status, brags about his life is worth more than x amount of dollars and so he must have a pistol that costs xxxx because his life is worth it, it rubs folks the wrong way. You know, bringing us back to the kid on the playground who has the $50 football and brags about his being so great and that when it's on the line, that is the only ball worth playing with.

In the end, though, the point is not how much is spent. A fellow can certainly spend what he will. But when statements about his life is worth it are bandied about, that implies that the more spent money, the greater the insurance. This is not the case and there can be no correlation between the money spent on a custom gun and the amount of security it brings.

I'm glad you are not impressed that my EAA and CZ are 100% reliable. I'm not impressed you paid way more for your pistol than I. I am really not impressed that you feel it takes $2,000 or some such cost to ensure safety or reliability. Spend your cash as you will. Bragging about how much you spend is generally considered poor form in polite circles.

I have the money to spend - but why would I? You have the money to spend and do. Good for you.

Ash

tkkr
January 17, 2008, 11:01 PM
Please dont call a glock a handgun, it gives the 1911 a bad name.

DZL HOG
January 18, 2008, 12:59 AM
I dont see anything wrong with carrying a $4K handgun if you got one. Chances are if you have one, you can afford to fix/replace it, or you wouldnt be carrying it in the first place. I know many of us have different lifestyles and jobs. For me a $1K gun is highend.

Im not trying to flame anyone here, just asking a guestion, so dont take offense.
For you guys that carry $2-4K handguns in CCW situations, what is your normal dress attire and daily activities? I would guess most are in offices and wearing nice clothes also that they will not be getting so dirty in. So really how much of a beating is that high end gun gonna take from riding in a nice leather holster tucked in a nice pair of pants or behind a nice suit jacket or something.
I dont think many farmers, construction workers, contractors, mechanics...etc carry a $3K pistol on their side everyday when they know how dirty things are gonna get.
Im a truck driver and usually end doing all sorts of odd things when business is slow, from walking thru deep **** feeding the boss' cows or crawling around under truck changing oil. I definitely would not want a highend gun on my side in those conditions. Not saying it couldnt be done. But Ive seen how much dust gets on my XD as well as hoslter wear thats on it from the few times Ive carried it, not too mention the gashes on the plastic holster. That bothers me now, and the XD isnt that expensive or pretty. I would cry just thinking about a highend gun taking that abuse. Ill probly never own one, would love too, just dont make that kinda money to put into something thats just as reliable as my XD that cost 1/2, 1/3, 1/4 of highend stuff.
I do own a very expensive truck. Well too me anyway, some folks think $55K is a drop in the bucket. For me its more than I make in 2 years and more than the cost of my parents house. I enjoy cleaning it up and putting it on the show field, drag strip, or truck pull track for all to see. Its my pride and joy. I think many ppl feel the same way with their guns. Whether it be their custom 1911 safequeen that rarely gets seen, or the one they carry everywhere. Same thing with shotguns. Many ppl shoot clays with $2k+O/U. Id hate to hit the dove field with that gun, just b/c of the thought of it getting scratched up. But just cuz its pretty/fancy dont make it any more or less capable of gettin' it done over a $200 Mossy.
If ya got the money to spend on a custom gun, and dont mind what happens to it(seized by cops or scratched up), go for it.
Id love to own a highend gun, just experience the handling and performance differences that have been stated throughout this thread. I probly never will, just my lifestyle. I could afford to buy the gun(once), knowing that I wouldnt be able to replace it, should something happen, and would be very paranoid of any lil ding happening to it, that I would rarely use it and keep it in the safe.
And then what would I have and what would be the point of having it?

I want an EMP, but cant justify paying over a $1K for a gun, that I KNOW Im gonna freak out if it ever gets a scratch on it. Im sure Ill eventually give in(like many of us do LOL) and buy it, then Ill have a nice expensive paperweight in the safe, that will occasionally go boom on the weekends. LOL

Thats how this Po' boy sees it.

Thanks,
Matt

Sorry about writing a book, I get longwinded sometimes.

bigred82
January 18, 2008, 01:43 AM
People who can afford high end sidearms and have the desire to carry them should. It isn't like we are going to take our money with us after we die. Too many people take too many things personal. I'm currently a college student, so I can't afford a Wilson or a Baer just yet. I own a G19 that cost me $400, but I happen to prefer to carry my Dan Wesson CBOB that cost me $900.

Why? Because I like it better!

Sure, the G19 is dead-on reliable and accurate, but why carry it when I have this nice 1911 Commander that is just begging to be carried. If I unfortunately happen upon that 1 in a million encounter of having to use it in self-defense, so be it. The cops can carry it off to their evidence locker, and I'll go out and buy another Dan Wesson or maybe upgrade to a Les Baer. It is only $900 bucks. Or $1500. Or $2500. Who Cares?!

People seem to take it as an insult when someone wants to invest $2500+ into their self defense while they've only invested $300. People, we all carry what we want. Call it vanity, Luxury, or whatever else makes you feel like you're equal or better. I can laugh at the guy in the BMW M5 as I drive past and think how much money he spent on a car that isn't going any faster than my cheap Chrysler Sebring, but guess what - I'd rather be driving his car than mine. I can't drive his car because I can't afford it. He can't drive any faster than I can without getting a speeding ticket, but he still can buy the car - and he gets more enjoyment out of it knowing that he owns it. Don't take this stuff so personal.

After I am out of school, you can sure bet I'll be carrying a Wilson or a Baer or a Brown. I will carry it because 1. I want to carry it, and 2. I can afford it.

Different strokes, different folks.

sandwich
January 18, 2008, 08:10 AM
I'm talking custom pistols, 1911's in general. Ed Browns, Nighthawks, Les Baers, etc. that are $2000+. Are these custom pistols really made for carry or for target/show? There was one thread here (or maybe TFL)that a poster said their new Ed Brown was so tight that it took several hundred rounds to get her running smooth. (FTF to be exact.) If that is the case, would you trust it in a carry situation? What about battle scars? Would that bother you?

I, myself, really want a Nighthawk but wonder if it is more for a show piece than carry piece.

What say you?

I buy pistols to use, not for show. I'll take a Glock, Ruger, XD, Bersa or CZ over some $2000 showpiece any day. The people who buy those showpieces are usually compensating for something they lack :)

At least that is my opinion.

sandwich
January 18, 2008, 08:19 AM
I have not seen anyone here "belittle" others if they choose cheaper firearms, the general concensus throughout this post is "carry what you want". The only "judging" I see is one person trying to impose his gun choice onto others.

Clearly you have never seen a Hi point thread then.

Ash
January 18, 2008, 08:37 AM
I don't see where anyone is insulted about the price of anything here. I see some folks see it is silly to not carry your most expensive firearm. Some see it as silly to carry an unreliable firearm over a better one. Some see no value at all in the world in spending $4,000 when said $300 pistol is 100% reliable and remains accurate. But, it seems some $4,000 pistol guys feel it important to justify their decision by comparing the worth of the pistol to their personal worth or the worth of their family. That is absurd. The value lies in the ability of a firearm to perform the intended role. A Glock really will do the same thing as the 1911. One can carry what they will, what makes them comfortable, but as said before - and evidently ignored - is that the cost of the pistol is irrelevant. It doesn't matter how much you spend as long as it is reliable. Spending an extra $3,000 on a pistol does not make you value your life or family more. And carrying a $3,000 race gun over a $300 production model because you have both and your family is worth ten times as much is just as illogical. Does the same guy do yard work in Armani shoes because he loves his yard only wants to wear the best while working on it? Perhaps. But Wolverines will do yard work. Do what you want, but you aren't assessing a value based on the price of the shoes. I can afford said race gun. I have owned a $4,000 Czech Sniper rifle. But because I owned that rifle, I did not go hunting with it. I have a Mossberg 800 that is reliable and accurate with excellent optics. It might have been a cheap hunting rifle, but it does the job as needed. Plenty of folks have firearms like that. I don't care if a guy buys a Colt Sauer rifle on a hunt. But it would be silly if he says it takes that much money to take a deer. It does not.

As to CCW, a guy can carry what he wants and what makes him comfortable. I thought after Katrina I would carry my CZ-75 with 15 rounds of ammo, but when push came to shove, I just felt more comfortable with 10 rounds of 45ACP. That was what I carried in the woods and Jeep and just felt more comfortable with it. There are guys here who carry a Makarov, and did so when they were much cheaper. Did they, in doing so, place so little value in their lives? No, they didn't. In the end, carry what you want. But I'm not impressed by the BMW that drives by and not impressed by the custom gun. You are welcome to have it, use it, what ever. You may think it silly to own land. Fine by me. Different strokes and all. But don't say that the $4,000 pistol is carried because your family is worth it. Your family is worth protecting and the most reliable pistol is what you should carry. A Korriphilla would be nice, but no more effective than a CZ-75. You have not valued your family/life more because of it.

Ash

LKB3rd
January 18, 2008, 09:16 AM
I agree that the whole "my life is worth it" argument is flawed. An expensive gun won't function better than a glock or xd in a life or death situation.
If you like expensive guns, i have no problem with that. I have a Colt Python that i paid a lot for, and i did it because i like it. I don't have to justify why i like it. I just do. I like looking at it, and i like shooting it. It doesn't work better when push comes to shove than my XD45.
Money is just money, and i'll earn more of it the next time i go to work. I am definitely not rich, but if i want something, and it costs a lot, if i can figure out a way to get it, i get it.
I would never try to say that there is any sort of logical reason for getting anything, other than i wanted it and liked it. Some things cost more than others, and if you want what you want, you have to pay the price they go for.
I have and will carry my python anywhere i can open carry, and i am not particularly concerned if it gets some wear on it. I actually like some wear on things i like, as long as it isn't abused, and still works like its supposed to.

98C5
January 18, 2008, 09:35 AM
I'm amazed at some of the responses here. Yes, a Glock or Taurus can defend your life just like a $2000 custom gun. But some people like a to own a high-end gun than a non high-end gun. A few even stated that the pistol was custom taylored to their needs. So, why does that bother some here? Now, it is wrong to say that a 'basic' Glock or a Springer GI model is not worthy enough, because they are.

Sandwich, the whole compensating thing gets me. I get that all the time because I bought a 98 Vette. (Hence my name) I've always wanted one when I was little and now had the means to buy one. It was NOT to impress anyone, because I could care less what anyone else thinks. And trust me, I DON'T make a lot of money, but I wanted one and got it.

My whole point to me starting this thread is not 'who's gun is more expensive than the others'. It was to see if anyone who did carry a high-end pistol and why? To each his own.

This is the High Road, and we should all respect everyone's firearms equally. Regardless if it is a Hi-Point or a Les Baer. We are here to learn and give/take advice. I mean, GEEZ, I thought this was a GUN forum, not a gun-bashing forum.
:D

LKB3rd
January 18, 2008, 09:55 AM
Sandwich, the whole compensating thing gets me. I get that all the time because I bought a 98 Vette.
Crass alert. I will preface this by saying i am doing it intentionally to make a point, not to be rude or disrespectful.
If a woman says that a man has something "to compensate for a small penis" and i know her well enough to not offend her, and she has the brains to understand my point i respond with "do women wear perfume and pretty clothes to compensate for unattractive and foul smelling vaginas?" The answer is usually "Of course not, that is offensive." I say "yes, it is indeed offensive, and i am glad you get my point."

98C5
January 18, 2008, 10:01 AM
Crass alert?:rolleyes: I was making a point. And if you read the whole post, I stated I do NOT make a lot of money.

And with that other explanation LKB, you'll likely get this thread locked.


Oh Lord, live people, be happy and stop giving annoying analytical reasons for this or that. Just do.

mmike87
January 18, 2008, 10:13 AM
If you shoot someone w/ it, it may be gone forever. Don't take the chance. That is why I stopped carring my S&W 686-1. I would hate to think that I would loose it.


Who cares. You can only shoot someone if you think you are going to die. Since the alternative was death, the cost of the gun that saved my life is not important.

Besides, if it's a legal self defense case, saying you're not going to EVER get the gun back is pretty silly. It may take a while, but I don't think that you're automatically giving up the weapon forever.

If you shoot someone you were not supposed to, then you've got other problems besides getting your gun back.

mmike87
January 18, 2008, 10:21 AM
Positive. I took a class taught by a SWAT team member and another taught by a cop. Both stated that, if you have to shoot in self-defense anywhere outside of your domicile, you WILL be arrested and your gun WILL be confiscated. Period.


I think is a pretty broad statment and depends on where you live. Certainly your weapon is being taken as evidence regardless. Fine, they can have it - I'll get another one tomorrow.

But I don't see Some City PD arresting a woman who they found injured with half her clothes ripped who just shot her attempted rapist in a public park. That would be a PR nightmare. "Cops arrest rape victim for defending herself." Nice.

Obviously, there will always be an investigation and the DA will ultimately decide. But I just don't see EVERY victim of EVERY violent crime who defends himself or herself being hauled off in handcuffs EVERY time. If that's the case, then we need a new police force.

True, a lot of "victims" claim "self defense" when it really wasn't - every incident needs to be looked at individually.

LKB3rd
January 18, 2008, 10:34 AM
Crass alert? I was making a point. And if you read the whole post, I stated I do NOT make a lot of money.

And with that other explanation LKB, you'll likely get this thread locked.


Oh Lord, live people, be happy and stop giving annoying analytical reasons for this or that. Just do.
__________________

I was agreeing with you. The whole "compensation" thing is dumb.

98C5
January 18, 2008, 10:40 AM
Okay, caffeine not setting in yet. Sorry.

:o

PTK
January 18, 2008, 10:41 AM
My regular carry at this point (FN 5.7 pistol) is about a grand. If I ever have to use it in defense, a thousand dollars for the gun will be a SMALL cost compared to the rest of the court fees, etc.

buzz_knox
January 18, 2008, 10:50 AM
Unless you can objectively prove that a Glock is LESS reliable than a high-end gun, there's no reason (except vanity) to spend an additional $2,000 for a self-defense gun.

Actually, there are several reasons:

1. you hand size is such that a 1911, BHP, 210, etc is more controllable than a Glock
2. you want a higher level of accuracy than the Glock allows
3. your ability allows you to achieve the higher level of mechanical accuracy that a 1911, BHP, 210, etc allows over a Glock
4. you want a manual safety
5. you have the means of acquiring a 1911, BHP, 210, etc and seeing that it is worked over sufficiently to provide excellent reliability
6. you want something other than a Glock

I've carried Sigs, P7s, Glocks, Kahrs and 1911s. I carry a Glock because that is what works best for me when I consider all factors of which reliability is but one. It wasn't the deciding factor as my 1911s were perfectly reliable.

colubrid
January 18, 2008, 10:55 AM
My favorite platform for a carry gun is a 1911 with a alloy officer frame and commander slide. To get this you have to spend more. Because nobody makes this platform cheap.

http://www.fototime.com/ftweb/bin/ft.dll/standard?pictid={119819FD-60F6-42A6-9316-2F1C4FAEBD08}&exp=f&moddt=39430.0525831134&ssdyn=1

Glocks and other brands just don't feel as comfortable and i don't shoot them as well.

Rokman
January 18, 2008, 10:57 AM
Not me. I just carry polymer stuff or a S&W 642.

JP from Phoenix
January 18, 2008, 11:19 AM
I think if i was in that situation my biggest consern wouldnt be if i was to get my gun back It would be whether or not i'll have to spend the rest of my life in prison for fatally wounding someone. theres a fine line between self defense and murder, id be more worried about keeping the lawyer paid than getting my gun back

colubrid
January 18, 2008, 12:29 PM
id be more worried about keeping the lawyer paid than getting my gun back


JP has caught the correct.

tkkr
January 18, 2008, 12:50 PM
"An expensive gun won't function better than a glock or xd in a life or death situation."

It depends on which gun you are talking about, some 1911 clones are very out of spec. As far as SVI's go, I doubt any glock or XD will out-perform one.

Ash
January 18, 2008, 02:07 PM
Don't focus needlessly on the word Glock. CZ-75, which is cheaper still - and still reliable - can be substituted. The make matters little and is really beside the point.

Ash

sturmgewehr
January 18, 2008, 02:26 PM
I'm glad you are not impressed that my EAA and CZ are 100% reliable. I'm not impressed you paid way more for your pistol than I. I am really not impressed that you feel it takes $2,000 or some such cost to ensure safety or reliability. Spend your cash as you will. Bragging about how much you spend is generally considered poor form in polite circles.
First off, no one here is trying to impress you.

Secondly, the OP wasn't bragging about anything. No one else, that I can see, was bragging either. We answered his question. Not one of us started a thread saying, "LOOK HOW MUCH MY GUN COSTS!!!".

So, what's impolite is for you to be pretentious enough to make the blanket insulting statements that you made regarding myself and others.

It sounds to me as though you have a horrible inferiority complex. Insulting me or others with pistols you deem to be overly expensive isn't going to help you with your problem.

Ash
January 18, 2008, 02:31 PM
Owning one "...because it says something about the person that is subtle yet telling to those that recognize what you have."

This implies the purpose is to speak to others about xyz. I'm not impressed by that. But then, I don't fawn over celebrities either. I can brag and boast should I wish. I have several things about which I can really boast. To what purpose? Frankly, my philosophy is to be rich enough to drive a Ford. You see, there are those people who are so wealthy they are not trying to speak to anyone else in any subtle way about their means, sophistication, breeding, or anything else. I have a client who owns several thousand acres of timberland. He is very, very, very wealthy. He drives a plain pickup truck. He went in, paid for it with a check, and drove off the lot. You show him an expensive rifle he'll nod and say that's nice. You would not win him with any argument about a BMW. He can buy one of those with a check, too. Why bother? He doesn't HAVE to say anything to anybody.

Sturm, we have talked before across other forums and you should know by now I don't have an inferiority complex. I intended no insults and if folks were insulted, I apologize.

Ash

CWL
January 18, 2008, 02:32 PM
I hope this discussion doesn't devolve and get off the "High Road".

I think it is interesting to use "lawyering up" as a useful comparison. If the need ever arises, you'd choose the most expensive one you can afford for a reason right? Sure lower-end lawyers and legal aid probably can get you justice, but you'd be willing to pay for the 'bells & whistles" which comes from accumulated experience right?

Same goes for medical doctors.

Ash
January 18, 2008, 02:39 PM
And for guns. The more you pay, the better protected. But since reliability and accuracy can be had at far lower prices, what is being bought? Given that the accuracy of a CZ-75, for example to avoid Glock issues, is superb, as is its reliability, what bells and whistles can be had over and above said CZ?

Ash

Lazuris
January 18, 2008, 03:08 PM
This implies the purpose is to speak to others about xyz. I'm not impressed by that. But then, I don't fawn over celebrities either. I can brag and boast should I wish. I have several things about which I can really boast. To what purpose? Frankly, my philosophy is to be rich enough to drive a Ford

I don't believe my post was bragging about anything. I was only making a point that some people have multiple reasons for buying something. I recall my post saying that what makes this country great is that it allows for people of all backgrounds and demographics to make independent choices for themselves rather than have someone else tell that what they should have. You have and opinion and are so entitled to said opinion, however, it does not make the opinions of others less valid if they do not agree with you.

Ash
January 18, 2008, 04:01 PM
It does not. NOR, my friend, does it make those who use what ever tool happens to work well for the job devaluing their families/self should it not be the most expensive firearm they own. This coin has two sides. I have accepted both sides from the beginning. The price of the firearm is in no way correlated with the amount of protection. Or, can you tell me that the Ruger Police Six in 357 that I paid $160 for OTD a fool's weapon? It is fully reliable, carries one round less than most vaunted 1911's (and I prefer the 1911 to the Glock, by the way) and more powerful than any custom 1911. Price has nothing to do with it. But then, perhaps you could re-read my posts and note that what people carry is their own business, too.

Ash

sturmgewehr
January 18, 2008, 04:03 PM
Sturm, we have talked before across other forums and you should know by now I don't have an inferiority complex. I intended no insults and if folks were insulted, I apologize.
Thanks. It just seemed like you were telling those of us who own things like Eb Browns for CCW that we're rude or otherwise not polite because we answered the OP's question about what we carried.

It's good to know you didn't mean it that way.

I didn't buy my Kobra Carry because I wanted to impress someone... Hell, most of my friends think it's a waste of money and are content with their Colts. I bought my Ed Brown's because, to me, they are the nicest feeling and best made 1911's I've ever laid my hands on. To most others it just looks like any other stainless 1911. I've never had anyone come up to me and say, "Wow is that an Ed Brown?" while at the range. I like it that way actually.

To be honest, the 1911 snobs in my area tend to be Kimber owners... which cracks me up because in my view the Kimber's are bottom rung. Hehe, but that's another discussion.

Mannix
January 18, 2008, 04:17 PM
Everyone should just use what works for them, if that means a $2000 custom 1911 or a $150 Hi-Point, more power to them. No need to judge, bicker or otherwise trash talk your fellow gun owners for their choice of CCW(or OCW).

Myself, I've got my heart set on a CZ-75 Compact in .40S&W(I just gotta find someone selling.). Of course I still have to either wait a couple years or move to SD to carry :rolleyes:.

Ash
January 18, 2008, 04:24 PM
I had one that I sold last year, the rare CZ-85 compact in 40 (same pistol as the 75, just marked 85). If only I'd known...

Ash

Markbo
January 18, 2008, 04:51 PM
98C5, I don't care why you want to investigate high end firearms and questioning why you would is just rude IMHO.

Check here... I have been here many times in person and they have the whole gammut: http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/

sandwich
January 18, 2008, 05:11 PM
I'm amazed at some of the responses here. Yes, a Glock or Taurus can defend your life just like a $2000 custom gun. But some people like a to own a high-end gun than a non high-end gun. A few even stated that the pistol was custom taylored to their needs. So, why does that bother some here? Now, it is wrong to say that a 'basic' Glock or a Springer GI model is not worthy enough, because they are.

Sandwich, the whole compensating thing gets me. I get that all the time because I bought a 98 Vette. (Hence my name) I've always wanted one when I was little and now had the means to buy one. It was NOT to impress anyone, because I could care less what anyone else thinks. And trust me, I DON'T make a lot of money, but I wanted one and got it.

My whole point to me starting this thread is not 'who's gun is more expensive than the others'. It was to see if anyone who did carry a high-end pistol and why? To each his own.

This is the High Road, and we should all respect everyone's firearms equally. Regardless if it is a Hi-Point or a Les Baer. We are here to learn and give/take advice. I mean, GEEZ, I thought this was a GUN forum, not a gun-bashing forum.

I am simply stating my opinion. I am not going to mince words because it might hurt someone's delicate sensibilities, especially when if I ever decided to start a thread saying I carry a Hi Point and I like it, I would get plenty of flack for it.

And indeed, in this very thread, there are people who belittle those who choose good pistols because they don't cost $1000 or more, and say that they don't really care about their family's life or their own life because of it.

Believe it or not, I actually don't have a problem with people buying $2000 pistols. If they want to, in my opinion, waste their money, they can go ahead. But I have seen too many self-righteous "high-end" pistol owners walk around with the idea that their guns shoot magic bullets, or that they are somehow superior to proven weapons like Glocks, CZs, etc. That is what I have a problem with.

And sorry, but I believe a number of these "high end" buyers are compensating for something. And like cars, some people just like nice pistols. Again, I don't have a problem with people buying $2000 pistols because they enjoy a well crafted 1911, just like I don't care if people like to collect stamps or buy certain cars. I don't understand why people want to collect stamps or buy $2000 guns, but I don't have a problem with it either.

But again, I have seen too many Kimber owners walking around like they crap gold because they own a Kimber to not be biased against them.

As for the compensating thing, I didn't mean to say that everyone who owns a $2000 pistol is making up for something, but I do believe many do.

As for your car, I am glad that you got the car that you have wanted for a long time. Really, I am. But that doesn't change the fact that there are people out there who will buy an expensive car, house, or gun to make up for issues that they have with their self esteem. And you know what, they can buy whatever they want to, I couldn't care less. Just don't go and tell me that I have an inferior pistol because it is less than $1000, and just because I have enough self esteem to choose a gun based on what I need rather than something that is flashy and will impress my friends.

sandwich
January 18, 2008, 05:16 PM
Crass alert. I will preface this by saying i am doing it intentionally to make a point, not to be rude or disrespectful.
If a woman says that a man has something "to compensate for a small penis" and i know her well enough to not offend her, and she has the brains to understand my point i respond with "do women wear perfume and pretty clothes to compensate for unattractive and foul smelling vaginas?" The answer is usually "Of course not, that is offensive." I say "yes, it is indeed offensive, and i am glad you get my point."

Reread my post. I never said anything about penis size. Who is crass now?

sandwich
January 18, 2008, 05:17 PM
Crass alert? I was making a point. And if you read the whole post, I stated I do NOT make a lot of money.

And with that other explanation LKB, you'll likely get this thread locked.


Oh Lord, live people, be happy and stop giving annoying analytical reasons for this or that. Just do.

I think he was aiming at me buddy.

stevereno1
January 18, 2008, 06:05 PM
I would carry a $2000.00 pistol, but I can't find a Glock that costs that much!

stevereno1
January 18, 2008, 06:12 PM
I own a "high-end" Kimber. At least it's high end to me. I love that gun. It is for target shooting, keeping clean, and to pass on to my son someday. It is 38 oz unloaded, has a 2 piece feed ramp, internal extractor, and only holds 8 rounds (with wilson combat mags). Not what i want in a ccw weapon. I love 1911's, but glock it the workhorse gun for a civilian carry weapon- at least for me.

CWL
January 18, 2008, 06:16 PM
I think that ALL guns will most likely shoot bullets every time the trigger is pressed, I know that most pistols are inherently more accurate than the abilities of their owners.

They'll ALL most likely get the job done.

When I write "bells & whistles", I am meaning things like notched rear sights for 1-handed slide manipulation, ambi-safeties, dehorning to decrease chance of snagging on clothing during deployment, tuned extractors, correctly-done throat & ramp, trigger jobs, forged parts, etc. -things that all add a small contribution to reliability & performance. Even if these things each only add 1% more to the function, but which may add another 5-7% culmulative advantage to reliability & performance, wouldn't it be worthwhile?

Ash
January 18, 2008, 06:43 PM
Well, based on what you said, you can get most of that in a nice CZ-85.

Ash

stevereno1
January 18, 2008, 08:36 PM
I carry a korth revolver, and show disdain for anyone who chooses to carry anything else.

colubrid
January 18, 2008, 09:30 PM
But that doesn't change the fact that there are people out there who will buy an expensive car, house, or gun to make up for issues that they have with their self esteem

I have cheap everything. Cheap house. Cheap car. Cheap wife. Cheap kids. I am all about saving money.

But when it comes to guns I have serious self esteem issues.:neener:

P5 Guy
January 18, 2008, 11:03 PM
I used to carry my Walther P5 compact or my Walther P88, but the thought of either of these fine handguns sitting in an evidence locker should I have to use them pained me. So, I sold them to collectors and now carry a Glock 26. More firepower than the P5 and a smaller package than the P88 less three rounds.
I feel just as safe and I'd be out a lot less gun should it "get lost" in the locker.

IMTHDUKE
January 19, 2008, 12:35 AM
I think it's crazy to pay over 3k for a 1911....just go with something a bg would be proud to be shot with.

http://www.treasureislandbedandbreakfast.com/images/GUNS/edbrown.jpg

pete f
January 19, 2008, 01:31 AM
I carry an older Ed Brown, I paid 1250 for it in about 1991. he used a Colt's commander for the base gun. Why? Because with every load I fit in it, it shoots about 1.5 or so at 25 yards some got MUCH better, my current +p HST carry load will shoot sub 2" in at 50 yards. What does that matter? If I have to, I know I can take someone from behind cover who is shooting at me and make a clean hit.

mljdeckard
January 19, 2008, 01:51 AM
I carry a Kimber Custom II, which with night sights installed, cost me about $720. I shot a $2700 Nighthawk ad a local range. I was reminded of Vincent Vega in Pulp Fiction. "Wow. That is probably the BEST milkshake I've ever tasted. But it ain't worth $5."

The law of diminishing returns kicks in here. My Kimber will shoot 1.5-2" at 25 yards. The Nighhawk will shoot 1", guaranteed. The extra 1/2-1" of accuracy isn't worth $2k to me.

I also cringe at the idea of using a pistol in a defensive situation, the cops arrive and as they roughly force you to the ground, a probie penalty-kicks your gun away from you across the parking lot. "Hey, I'm going to want that gun bac.........never mind. Keep it."

There are refinements and extra touches you get with the higher pricetag. I don't buy guns for their looks. Maybe when I'm rich I'll change my mind, who knows.

sandwich
January 19, 2008, 08:42 PM
I have cheap everything. Cheap house. Cheap car. Cheap wife. Cheap kids. I am all about saving money.

But when it comes to guns I have serious self esteem issues.

How clever...maybe you just have issues with bad judgment :)

Blakenzy
January 20, 2008, 10:03 AM
Feeling as confident as can be in both your own ability to defend yourself AND your hardware performance is paramount in personal safety. If a $300 pistol does it for you, great. If for whatever reason you trust a $1000 gun more than a less expensive one, go with it. Carry what ever makes you feel more capable of shooting straight under stress.

Now, I can't believe some people don't want to carry an "expensive" pistol ONLY because of fear of losing it after using lethal force in self defense. That seems to show that there is something amiss in your view of what could really happen once you go down that legal chute...

Prioritize the the following fears instead:
1) Loss of personal freedom.
2) Loss of house, cars and the kids' college funds due to legal bills and/or civil lawsuits.

It's a lousy world, and it's even worse when you add in lawyers. A one or two thousand dollar pistol is peanuts, nothing compared to what you should prepare yourself to lose/spend in the event you actually have to shoot someone. So, you just shot a person, and you are concerned about a pistol??? Give me a break...

joffe
January 20, 2008, 10:32 AM
The extra 1/2-1" of accuracy isn't worth $2k to me.

You don't pay for accuracy, you pay for the entire package.

I guess there's a sharp line diving those who 'get it' and are willing to pay for such a gun, and then there are the ones who feel that it's pointless.

Richmond
January 20, 2008, 05:18 PM
In the late 1980s - 90s I was competing in "action" and IPSC pistol events.

About 1990 I had a custom 1911 made on a Colt stainless frame. It was made to the then-existing IPSC Limited specs. I stopped competing in the mid 90s, and in recent years made a few mods to make it a little more CCW friendly. Last year I put Crimson Trace grips on; the pistol has been professionally maintained, including re-fitting and re-tightening. It is definitely a working pistol and shows some cosmetic signs of practice, competition and carry for more than 15 years.

My practice regimen was roughly 500-700 rounds through this pistol weekly in those days. I trained daily with that pistol for years, and I guess I have a real emotional connection with it - in practice or competition, over tens of thousands of rounds, it never failed to do it's part. It is like an old and faithful friend.

My carry choice is usually dictated by how large a pistol I want to carry - my most frequent carry choice is one of my J frames, or a Kimber Ultra CDP. When I want to carry a full size pistol, however, the big 1911 is special - not because it was expensive or custom, but because it is such a fine piece of machinery, and after all these years together, I would rather have it in my hand in a tight spot than any other pistol.

mljdeckard
January 20, 2008, 07:11 PM
But I shot it, felt it, worked it. FOR THE LIFE OF ME, I can't see what that Nighthawk can do that my Kimber can't.

Boats
January 21, 2008, 04:20 AM
This thread is hilarious.

Cynics know the price of everything and the value of nothing.

If a BG forced the issue at my place he could find himself shot by any one or more of the following in handguns:

A litter of mouse guns. . .

A small herd of .38/.357 revos. . .

A passel of plasticky wundernines. . .

The CZ-52 or 82 C&R jobbers. . .

Any of three 1911A1 "house guns". . .

Or the one Colt Commander that I now have over $2300 tied up in.

This last one is my carry piece.

It didn't start off at $2300, but as a base NRM off the shelfer. Every internal is replaced and hand fitted with top of the line milled bar stock pieces. the extractor is honest to God spring steel just as JMB intended it to be. All of the springs are replaced, from the sear to the recoil spring. The barrel is fitted to the slide, the link to the barrel and slide stop, and the slide to the frame, and the bushing is perfectly mated to the barrel. Still, I left the pistol plenty "loose" for proper function. Novak's shop did the night sights and the cutting for them. A box of ammo and a fee ensured that I had the POA/POI just like I like it.

Why? Was I out impress? Wouldn't my M&P9 or Beretta PX4-9 handle the job of defending me and mine? No and yes.

The Colt is like an extension of my will. If I had to "take the shot" and put one in the BG's forehead as he tried using my daughter as a human shield, you'd best believe the weapon I will use is the one I have cloverleafed a target with on more than one great day at the range.

And were it confiscated in the aftermath and I never saw it again?

It's done it's duty. It performed up to the task that all of the resources that were put into it were intended to accomplish. Like a highly trained dog that gives its life for you in extremis is how I'd go about it. There'd still be a pack of dogs in the safe, but never another quite like the one that was lost.

Then I go back to my breeders and start looking for my next perfect companion.

It's entirely about the admittedly small difference between adequate and extraordinary.

A samurai, cavalier, or other swordsman would know that some swords work better for him than do others, even if they all looked similar or all could perform the basics.

Variables of all kinds actually matter to the serious combative disciplines practitioner. He would know, after years of experience, training, and handling the weapons of instructors, comrades and fallen enemies, exactly what it was in a weapon that allowed him the most effortless performance and efficacious results.

And were he not lucky enough to find his personal Excalibur at random off of the displays at the smith's he'd pay dearly to have a master craftsman give him that performance edge in the weapon of his choosing if he could but afford it.

This is not to say that such a weapon would be trained with to the exclusion of all others, but a normal human will give the favorite the best drilling hours he has. Proficiency costs time and a great weapon, one that is thoroughly mastered, maximizes the return on the investment.

A lot of that appreciation for marginal but still substantive performance gains has been lost on pistoleers, many of whom are cheapskate bangers with lowest common denominator weapons not unlike the crudest sword out of the barrel in the armory in days of yore.

At least many riflemen and shotgunners still appreciate that proper customized fit and other nuances bought and paid for with cash and long training hours will return blessings in ultimate performance.

Since I am not a high bucks rifle shooter (C&Rs) or shotgunner, (Mossies and beater Ithacas), I guess I thank the instructors at The Pedoy School of Escrima in Honolulu for my early developed appreciation of a fine weapon. The money I have tied up in a small number of knives would make some people go wide-eyed with amazement, several of them costing more than run of the mill duty pistols.

In escrima, any weapon will do, and at the higher levels of training, which I do not have, anything can be a weapon, from the empty hand, to the three ring binder on a desk, to the power cord pulled from the monitor.

However, my instructors there always left me with the impression that whether one was talking about a rattan or hardwood stick, a bolo or other knife, even one as lowly as the machete, you wanted to have the best one you could lay your hands on within reason.

If you have the stick that won't break first, the knife with the best balance, edge, and toughness, or the even the best bottle in a bar brawl, you have an incremental edge over your opponent.

The small qualitative difference in weapons is no panacea, but might add up to be just enough to win in a lethal encounter.

Sorry about being long winded, but it's always about more than the cash for the serious buyer who isn't doing it for the bling factor. My best watch cost me $100.00 and I drive an ancient Jeep that gets me where I want to go. Would Rolex do better than my Skagen or my Timex beaters? Who cares? I'e never needed precision time keeping that mattered. Driving is just something I have to do, though to others it's way more than that.

I reserve that type passion for my best weapons and my spending reflects it.

Ash
January 21, 2008, 07:15 AM
And so, those who do otherwise are the simpleton, careless, crude and obviously less capable lot who grab the sword out of the armory barrel. Ah, if only I were a real warrior.

Interesting that you chose to compare yourself to a cavalier (though Ronin Samurai is probably more to your liking). You do know that a cavalier was the term for the royalists supporting King Charles I in England during the civil war against the parliamentarians and Oliver Cromwell? They were the high-born supporters royalists who were fond of fashionable, extravagant clothing and were less capable swordsmen, being more bling than anything else. Before that it was a a swaggering boastful swordsman but in no way related itself to to capability. Do you mean Chevalier, the french word for knight? Such as the song Chevalier du table rounde? A knight perhaps was your term?

In any case, I tip my hat and bow to the more capable. There are far greater shots than I on these boards and I count myself in good company when discussing the topics. I'm glad you find yourself in possession of such a fine weapon and the money devoted to it. Doubtlessly it will do for you what my humble-yet-100%-reliable EAA will not do for me. But then, I suppose, that makes me something other than a serious buyer. Or does it?

Ash

(If the above post seems too harsh, it is intended to be pithy and not a flame)

1911 guy
January 21, 2008, 08:11 AM
I've got two pistols that I switch back and forth. Both are 1911's, both are 5" barrels, both have beavertail grip safeties, beveled mag wells, good sights and decent triggers. One is a full blown custom build, the other is a filipino made Charles Daly. Both run great with any ammo.

Pilot
January 21, 2008, 08:43 AM
Cost is not a consideration for me in carrying. I carry everything from a Bulgarian Makarov I bought for $140 to an HK P7M8 I bought LNIB for $850 several years ago which is clearly worth more that $1K now, and everything in between. My everyday carry is a CZ-75D PCR that I paid $319 for in 2000. If I loose any of these because I had to use them I would gladly forget about it because it probably saved my life.

Boats
January 21, 2008, 01:29 PM
And so, those who do otherwise are the simpleton, careless, crude and obviously less capable lot who grab the sword out of the armory barrel. Ah, if only I were a real warrior.

Don't put words into my mouth. I did also say that some people find their Excalibur off of the rack. However, most only fool themselves into thinking they have. They've settled "for good enough" and just don't acknowledge it. The point I was making is that people who move on from that point travel a well trodden path that has more to do with realizing possibilities than mere vanity.

Interesting that you chose to compare yourself to a cavalier (though Ronin Samurai is probably more to your liking). You do know that a cavalier was the term for the royalists supporting King Charles I in England during the civil war against the parliamentarians and Oliver Cromwell? They were the high-born supporters royalists who were fond of fashionable, extravagant clothing and were less capable swordsmen, being more bling than anything else. Before that it was a a swaggering boastful swordsman but in no way related itself to to capability. Do you mean Chevalier, the french word for knight? Such as the song Chevalier du table rounde? A knight perhaps was your term?

I wasn't comparing myself to anything. I was only providing examples of fellows who might have, with reason, cared more than the average joe because they depended on their tools in life or death situations. I could have used carpenters, fly fishermen, motorcycle racers, or any other group who have among their number a subset of people who will seek to maximize performance. Even some of the cavaliers were capable swordsmen.

In any case, I tip my hat and bow to the more capable. There are far greater shots than I on these boards and I count myself in good company when discussing the topics. I'm glad you find yourself in possession of such a fine weapon and the money devoted to it. Doubtlessly it will do for you what my humble-yet-100%-reliable EAA will not do for me. But then, I suppose, that makes me something other than a serious buyer. Or does it?

Wow, are you thin skinned or what? I am not the best shot to stride the world or prowl these boards, but I have spent thousands on mundane reloads and thirty years of pretty regular range time find out what I am capable of.

Ancillary to that is that I have found exactly what I want in my primary sidearm. It won't do anything your Witness will not from a mechanical standpoint, but for me I would have a much higher level of confidence in my customized tool over any out of the box pistol, even other ones I own and have also fired extensively.

I know which handgun gets me the most lead on target in the shortest span of time. It's not a Witness, but if i floats your boat, there's nothing wrong with that either.

But tell me something. If you ever put night sights or aftermarket grips on your EAA, or get a trigger job, have you moved from the practical weapon to the impractical bauble?

I'd say you'd customized your favorite and good on you for doing so. There'd be no snobbery or envy from me. I know people who've heavily customized Ruger SP-101 revolvers. Some would say they've only put lipstick on a pig, but I think they sought to wring out maximum performance from their favorite platform.

That many of them also look fantastic is a byproduct, not the end in itself.

mljdeckard
January 21, 2008, 02:47 PM
Still waiting to hear what the Nighthawk can do that my Kimber can't do.

astark
January 21, 2008, 03:21 PM
I just purchased my first 1911 for conceal carry and wanted to get something I felt confident would work, and I could be proud of to own. Saturday I put 250 flawless rounds through her right on target and it shoots even better than it looks.

Would another less expensive firearm have worked as well for me, I doubt it. But then again, I'm a Newbie and don't have near the experience to know otherwise either.

98C5
January 21, 2008, 03:41 PM
Still waiting to hear what the Nighthawk can do that my Kimber can't do.

Nothing. I just like the looks of the Nighthawk. Had nothing to do with reliability/vanity, etc. My most expensive pistol is a Springfield Loaded lightweight $700. It is my carry piece. I practice with it often and am comfortable having it by my side.

Do I intend to buy that Nighthawk anytime soon? No.

If I do, it would be for a safe queen/target pistol. I would be too anal in having it scratched/marred. I just wanted to know who carries these more pricey guns as a carry piece. Unfortunately, the ones who did step forward are getting blasted. If they choose to carry a $1500+ weapon, fine. I have no problem with it. Is a less than $1500 pistol inferior? Well I hope not, otherwise a LOT of us, including myself, are in a lot of trouble.

Here's the one I was referring to:

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/411534743

Boats
January 21, 2008, 03:45 PM
A Nighthawk not made to your specs will do nothing more than your Kimber save for the following:

1) It won't ever face the possibility of a MIM part failure.

2) It will probably have more precise lock up into battery and be more mechanically accurate for it. Whether that can be exploited is on the shooter.

2a) According to their website, they will have fired a minimum of 75 rounds through the weapon, checking function, mating magazines that work flawlessly with the pistol, and sighting it in to meet their accuracy guarantee. Your Kimber got a test fired case for NY and MD compliance.

3) It will have a way less BS warranty than Kimber has provided of late.

4) As a byproduct only, it won't have a ghey rollmark and brand name.:D

A Nighthawk is not for me, because I like a more hands on build, but you are getting what you pay for I would bet.

astark
January 21, 2008, 04:06 PM
I have held one of those Nighthawks in hand and they are exceptionally nice, but never shot one. Yes, it might take a few rounds to break in, but those go pretty darn quick, and it does not have to be just a show piece. It was built to be used and maybe even a little abused, and I think such a fine firearm should meet its destiny.

I say buy it, carry it, scratch it, enjoy it and have fun. I know that is what I will be doing with mine and I will not regret it, even if others think I should.

Ash
January 21, 2008, 06:48 PM
"Even some of the cavaliers were capable swordsmen."

True, but most carried what was stylish for the times. Likely expensive with fancy etching/engraving on the blade which did nothing for functionality.

As said Witness, the only thing I have done was to re-coat it in Alumahyde II after corrosion from carry. Still has the Tanfoglio rubber grips on it and stock sights. It does ride in a good holster, but that's because I need a solid hold in the woods.

You see, I refuse to add or remove things. The trigger is already smooth with a crisp let-off. The sights work well. I have no need to polish/tune anything because it works well and is accurate as is. Why play with it and run the risk of decreasing reliability? Not that I'm a Queen fan, but Freddie Mercury had bucked teeth. He looked like a complete loon with those chompers, like he could chew corn through a barbed wire fence.

He refused to get corrective dental work because he did not want to take a chance that his singing would suffer.

I refuse to change what already works. It isn't broken.

I have no problem with folks who customize or modify their firearms. It can be fun and it does personalize a firearm to fit the wants of the user. However, it does not make one Ronin. I could spend much, much more on the Witness, but at this time, why?

Ash

stevereno1
January 21, 2008, 08:37 PM
P.S. Nobody reads the ultra-long, High and Mighty posts. Keep it short. The art of getting your point across, is to use the fewest amount of words to make a strong point.

JohnBT
January 21, 2008, 10:58 PM
"Unfortunately, the ones who did step forward are getting blasted."

<Shrug> Water, ducks, back, etc.

I carry a $1000 pocket pistol and it only holds 7 rounds. It's a Rohrbaugh. I hear they're making more expensive ones these days, but mine is just fine.

If I wanted to carry a bigger, more expensive gun I'd go buy one. Okay, I wouldn't buy one, I'd go get one out of the safe.

You know, it's often said that a gun is insurance. Then there's the often said "Better carry a cheap one, your gun might get confiscated if you have to use it." So what. My homeowner's and auto policies both have a $1000 deductible. A grand here, a grand there, it's just the price of living.

You know, you can save a lot of money on insurance by raising your deductible from $250 or $500 to a grand or more. I haven't raised mine in 10 or 15 years, maybe I should check into it raising it higher. If I save $200 a year for 10 years I can buy another nice pistol.

John

Rexster
January 22, 2008, 12:09 AM
I have carried a Les Baer Thunder Ranch Special, and may well do so again. I decided to set aside 1911 pistols for now, and devote my training time and budget to my DA duty pistol, a SIG P229 DAK, and my DA sixguns. I can shoot either SA or DA well, but reach the highest level of skill by concentrating on one or the other. Two of my SP101 snubbies went through Jack Weigand's shop, making them very valuable today, but I have one or both with me all the time. A P229 is a fairly high-budget weapon itself, being the most expensive on my agency's "approved" list, which includes the G22/23, which sell for much less. (We buy our own duty firearms.)

Rexster
January 22, 2008, 12:31 AM
What can a Kimber not do? Well, I know there are Kimbers that work OK, but I tried three, and all three struck out. End of inning, and I won't spend any more money on Kimbers. All three needed parts replacement, none worked with the factory-supplied mags, and all three were finicky regarding which mags would work. BTW, these were pre-firing-pin safety, pre-external-extractor Kimbers from the "glory" days of Kimber. My plain-Jane Springfield and Series 80 Colt Classic Government worked 100%, with any and all mags, and needed no reliability tuning or parts replacement. Moreover, I spent a fortune on ammo, trying to break-in and verify the reliability of those Kimbers. (My standard is 500+ rounds of reliable feeding after the last malfunction or modification, not counting cheap range ammo.) In the end, two of them were eventually deemed reliable enough, and I carried them as duty pistols until 2002, when circumstances made it necessary to switch to DA .40 autos. If you have a good Kimber, hang onto it; you are blessed. In hindsight, I should have bought a couple of Les Baers instead of those three Kimbers, and ended up saving money; my Baer TRS has been 100% reliable with all ammo and all mags, from round one.

sandwich
January 22, 2008, 06:16 AM
This thread is hilarious.

Cynics know the price of everything and the value of nothing.

If a BG forced the issue at my place he could find himself shot by any one or more of the following in handguns:

A litter of mouse guns. . .

A small herd of .38/.357 revos. . .

A passel of plasticky wundernines. . .

The CZ-52 or 82 C&R jobbers. . .

Any of three 1911A1 "house guns". . .

Or the one Colt Commander that I now have over $2300 tied up in.

This last one is my carry piece.

It didn't start off at $2300, but as a base NRM off the shelfer. Every internal is replaced and hand fitted with top of the line milled bar stock pieces. the extractor is honest to God spring steel just as JMB intended it to be. All of the springs are replaced, from the sear to the recoil spring. The barrel is fitted to the slide, the link to the barrel and slide stop, and the slide to the frame, and the bushing is perfectly mated to the barrel. Still, I left the pistol plenty "loose" for proper function. Novak's shop did the night sights and the cutting for them. A box of ammo and a fee ensured that I had the POA/POI just like I like it.

Why? Was I out impress? Wouldn't my M&P9 or Beretta PX4-9 handle the job of defending me and mine? No and yes.

The Colt is like an extension of my will. If I had to "take the shot" and put one in the BG's forehead as he tried using my daughter as a human shield, you'd best believe the weapon I will use is the one I have cloverleafed a target with on more than one great day at the range.

And were it confiscated in the aftermath and I never saw it again?

It's done it's duty. It performed up to the task that all of the resources that were put into it were intended to accomplish. Like a highly trained dog that gives its life for you in extremis is how I'd go about it. There'd still be a pack of dogs in the safe, but never another quite like the one that was lost.

Then I go back to my breeders and start looking for my next perfect companion.

It's entirely about the admittedly small difference between adequate and extraordinary.

A samurai, cavalier, or other swordsman would know that some swords work better for him than do others, even if they all looked similar or all could perform the basics.

Variables of all kinds actually matter to the serious combative disciplines practitioner. He would know, after years of experience, training, and handling the weapons of instructors, comrades and fallen enemies, exactly what it was in a weapon that allowed him the most effortless performance and efficacious results.

And were he not lucky enough to find his personal Excalibur at random off of the displays at the smith's he'd pay dearly to have a master craftsman give him that performance edge in the weapon of his choosing if he could but afford it.

This is not to say that such a weapon would be trained with to the exclusion of all others, but a normal human will give the favorite the best drilling hours he has. Proficiency costs time and a great weapon, one that is thoroughly mastered, maximizes the return on the investment.

A lot of that appreciation for marginal but still substantive performance gains has been lost on pistoleers, many of whom are cheapskate bangers with lowest common denominator weapons not unlike the crudest sword out of the barrel in the armory in days of yore.

At least many riflemen and shotgunners still appreciate that proper customized fit and other nuances bought and paid for with cash and long training hours will return blessings in ultimate performance.

Since I am not a high bucks rifle shooter (C&Rs) or shotgunner, (Mossies and beater Ithacas), I guess I thank the instructors at The Pedoy School of Escrima in Honolulu for my early developed appreciation of a fine weapon. The money I have tied up in a small number of knives would make some people go wide-eyed with amazement, several of them costing more than run of the mill duty pistols.

In escrima, any weapon will do, and at the higher levels of training, which I do not have, anything can be a weapon, from the empty hand, to the three ring binder on a desk, to the power cord pulled from the monitor.

However, my instructors there always left me with the impression that whether one was talking about a rattan or hardwood stick, a bolo or other knife, even one as lowly as the machete, you wanted to have the best one you could lay your hands on within reason.

If you have the stick that won't break first, the knife with the best balance, edge, and toughness, or the even the best bottle in a bar brawl, you have an incremental edge over your opponent.

The small qualitative difference in weapons is no panacea, but might add up to be just enough to win in a lethal encounter.

Sorry about being long winded, but it's always about more than the cash for the serious buyer who isn't doing it for the bling factor. My best watch cost me $100.00 and I drive an ancient Jeep that gets me where I want to go. Would Rolex do better than my Skagen or my Timex beaters? Who cares? I'e never needed precision time keeping that mattered. Driving is just something I have to do, though to others it's way more than that.

I reserve that type passion for my best weapons and my spending reflects it.

Good God, now I have seen it all. That was quite possibly the nuttiest post I've ever seen on the internet. You must smoke the best weed ever grown.

Anyway, this little nugget was particularly annoying.

A lot of that appreciation for marginal but still substantive performance gains has been lost on pistoleers, many of whom are cheapskate bangers with lowest common denominator weapons not unlike the crudest sword out of the barrel in the armory in days of yore.

And people have called me self righteous. So I am a "cheapskate banger" because I choose to buy a Glock, or God forbid, a Ruger? The sad part is that you actually have a point later in your...post...when you mentioned practice.

I skipped all of that crap about you customizing your pistol, because I couldn't care less about that, but you make a point about practice. Practice is what makes someone good at shooting a pistol, not the fact that they spent $3000 "customizing" a pistol that shoots as well as a Glock anyway.

I could go on but there is no point. I'll keep my Glock or CZ and you keep your "precision weapon crafted like the old samurai weapons of yore."

And before someone bleats that I am not being "High Road," head on over to other posts in the General Gun discussion and watch democrats being called "demoncrats" and other names. So much for "High Road."

Good God.

JohnBT
January 22, 2008, 11:36 AM
"I thank the instructors at The Pedoy School of Escrima in Honolulu"

That's a heck of a name. I had to google it. They really exist. Dang. Learn something new everyday.


"Good God, now I have seen it all."

No you haven't, you just got here. Sit back and learn if you will.

John

1911 guy
January 22, 2008, 12:01 PM
I do not believe a high dollar, custom, one of a kind, whiz bang pistol will perform any better than a basic service pistol in the hands of a trained user. If you want one or have one, good. If you don't, that's good, too. To use the analogy Boats started, the warriors were great because of skill, not some magic sword.

I regularly carry one of two 1911's, one a bone stock Charles Daly (filipino beer can, some have said) and a custom built Springfield. Neither has any ability in and of themselves. Carrying a more expensive handgun at times is merely because I wanted one and could afford it at the time. Nothing more.

You may wring a bit more accuracy from the tuned up gun, but how much is usually negligible in real application (unless we're gonna talk bullseye guns).

If you look at an expensive handgun as a hobby or range queen, that's fine. It's your gun, do with it what you want. If you've got a gun costing more than my work car (not hard to do) and beat the snot out of it, that's fine, too. It's yours.

Just remember that when the chips are down, the skill doesn't magically appear just because you've got the Buck Rogers Special in your pocket. Latest gizmo? Train. Third hand revolver of questionable origin? Train. The results will be the same.

tkkr
January 22, 2008, 12:39 PM
Boats is correct, a gun made for you will obviously preform better for you then a gun that was made for mass-production to please everybody and bring in the cash from high-volume sales, true there are some exceptions to certain people with certain guns.

It is like having a piece of clothing tailored for you.

Ditto_95
January 22, 2008, 01:22 PM
A grand here, a grand there,
Pretty soon it adds up to real money.

mljdeckard
January 23, 2008, 01:33 AM
So, the answer is, the Nighthawk gives a negligible amount more accuracy, doesn't have MIM parts (which I have never had ANY kind of problem with) and uses 'better' mags.

2" accuracy is plenty for a carry gun. I use Chip McCormack mags, but I have never had an issue with the stock mags. But even if I replace all the MIM parts, and buy the most premium mags on the planet, how does that justify a $2000 difference. My Kimber works just fine. Never had a problem. I could fix it myself if it did.

The real question is, how do you feel when you spend $2k + on a pistol and IT BREAKS TOO? (Everything breaks eventually.)

Boats
January 23, 2008, 01:42 AM
Don't forget the ghey name and roll markings coming out of Yonkers.

Ditto_95
January 23, 2008, 05:06 AM
Why is the real question "how do you feel when you spend $2k + on a pistol and IT BREAKS TOO?"?
This started out as a legitimate question and turned into a premium gun bashing session.

There are certainly a lot of petty people on here.
Why does it become anyone's business how much I spend on a pistol.

Buy what you like and leave it at that!

TimboKhan
January 23, 2008, 05:37 AM
I will restrain myself from my typical rant about high-end 1911's and simply point out that if I pay $2000.00 for a 1911, that friggin' gun is going to go EVERYWHERE with me. Thats not pride of ownership talking, thats simply the fact that it is going to earn it's price from work, not from the ooh's and ahh's of appreciative shooters and armchair commandos.

JohnBT
January 23, 2008, 08:03 AM
"The real question is, how do you feel when you spend $2k + on a pistol and IT BREAKS TOO?"

Feel? I'd simply get it fixed.

The same thing I'd do when my $39,000 car needs fixing.

John

MrAnteater
January 23, 2008, 12:38 PM
I will carry a $600 Glock and thats about it.

If you have thousands to drop on custom pistols and like to use them as a CCW piece, more power to you.

But it's like using a Ferrari as an everyday driver, IMO.

Richmond
January 23, 2008, 01:56 PM
"The real question is, how do you feel when you spend $2k + on a pistol and IT BREAKS TOO?"

Feel? I'd simply get it fixed.

The same thing I'd do when my $39,000 car needs fixing.

John

Actually, first I would complain a lot. :cuss:

Then, I would fix it.

Sorry, my $40,000* SUV went out of warranty about 15 minutes ago. Well, actually a few thousand miles, but anyway, the speedometer went out, and it cost $500 for a new cluster.

:cuss:

So, first I complained a lot - then today they are replacing it. :rolleyes:

The actual point is that I often get better stuff, whether guns, tools, equipment, with some expectation that it is more durable or reliable than a less expensive item.

Yes - I know that Glocks are modestly priced and can be dipped in a vat of nuclear waste, rolled in salt and baked at high heat, yet come out of the oven delightfully crispy and firing Wolf ammo reliably - that is why a Glock 17 is my "outdoor" gun for winter outdoor carry - climbing, snowshoeing, etc. ;)

*list - I paid a lot less, of course! ;)

Old Dog
January 23, 2008, 02:01 PM
Arriving late to the party, as usual. And, as always, I've got nothing valuable to add. Very entertaining thread though!

Lotta folks seem a bit thin-skinned in this one, both those trying to justify why they pack inexpensive handguns, and those trying to make the point that quality, albeit expensive, is a good thing.

JohnBT summed it up well: "I'd simply get it fixed."

MrAnteater opines, But it's like using a Ferrari as an everyday driver, IMO.Nah, sorry, don't agree, I'd sure as heck drive a Ferrari every single day IF I could afford one, gonna hafta "settle" for a 'Vette.

I'm firmly in the camp that believes (1) if I have to use the Wilson or one of the custom Colt's, I'm not gonna bemoan the loss of the firearm and (2) I do shoot a high-end 1911 better that a cheap pistol (though my friends well know that I'm not even close to being the legendary marksman I think I am). But I do favor spendy Swiss watches ... and a Taurus PT-145 is in my fishing tackle box and a Russian Makarov in my truck.

mike4guns
January 23, 2008, 06:44 PM
ok course not. i would never take my wilson out. don't even like to range it. once it broke in 500rds. never took it out again. aldso a raptor i got never sees the light of day. not even gonna use it for hd. thats what glock and sig's are for

Markbo
January 27, 2008, 01:48 PM
So Mike, these two high end pistols were bought for..... what purpose exactly?

big44
January 27, 2008, 06:54 PM
The wife and kids got me a Ed Brown Kobra for my last birthday. I'm always nervous about carrying for a couple of reasons.

1. Just the wear and tear that a Concealed Handgun goes through.

2. God forbid that I ever had to use it the cops would probably take it until after their investigation. I may or may not ever see it again.

Double Naught Spy
January 27, 2008, 08:00 PM
1. Just the wear and tear that a Concealed Handgun goes through.

It can handle it.

2. God forbid that I ever had to use it the cops would probably take it until after their investigation. I may or may not ever see it again.

Yes, but if you don't see it again, it won't be because it failed you and you are dead.

Richmond
January 27, 2008, 11:11 PM
Yes, but if you don't see it again, it won't be because it failed you and you are dead.

Ok - that is so nice and concise I may need to work it into my signature line. :)

sandwich
January 28, 2008, 02:13 AM
So Mike, these two high end pistols were bought for..... what purpose exactly?

To brag about.

clemsonu0219
February 10, 2008, 04:53 PM
Personally, I want to carry a pistol that I feel is 100% reliable. Having my gun taken for evidence is a willing sacrifice if need-be. With that being said, I feel that my Sig p232 is more reliable than almost any 1911 I've ever shot.

Markbo
February 11, 2008, 12:36 PM
So you've shot a lot of 1911's that malfunctioned a lot?

Ala Dan
February 11, 2008, 07:14 PM
Been there, and done that so too speak~! I spent over $1K on the first ever
Kimber 5" Raptor II that passed my way; then traded the Raptor in on a more
expensive Les Baer Thunder Ranch Special. Even tho, I didn't spend the MSRP
of $1748 for the Baer; it was still quite a bundle, at a shade over $1500. Now,
you ask "do I carry it"? And the answer is, Well NO-except too the range; and
even then it don't go on foul weather days. Its true, one can never tell where
a viable threat may come from; muchless on weather conditions, or whether
the moon will be shining brightly in the dimly lit area of a possible attack. But,
I trust my $800 Kimber Stainless Ultra Carry too dispatch what ever perp may
come my way; while the Baer sits in the safe~! ;) :D

buzz_knox
February 12, 2008, 08:45 AM
But,
I trust my $800 Kimber Stainless Ultra Carry too dispatch what ever perp may
come my way; while the Baer sits in the safe~!


And yet, some on this thread would argue you are carrying a "high end" gun in the Kimber, and that with good .38s and surplus Maks available for hundreds of dollars less, you are doing so out of vanity. Strange mindset, no?

Commander Crusty
February 12, 2008, 09:05 AM
My trusty S&W 645 was customized by Karl Sokol at Chestnut Mountain Sports. It had a trigger job, BoMar sights, carry bevel package, reliability tune-up, special finish and more. My custom gun was heavily used, scratched, dented, shot frequently, taken to class, yanked out of a holster in competition, slammed against barricades and carried extensively for about 15 years. All my customizing about doubled the price of the gun, but it gave me what I believed to be the safest, most effective, most reliable pistol in the world. To me, that confidence was worth a LOT!

Ala Dan
February 12, 2008, 09:09 AM
Att: buzz knox

You are so right, my friend. I guess I could rely solely on my Bersa Thunder
DT .380; or my KEL-TEC P3AT .380 too dispatch the same perp(s), at a
much lesser expense? But, my reasoning is- why let a perp get that close
to you, for you too have to make a nostril shot on a bad guy? I would lots
rather take a shot at him from within the 21 foot "comfort zone" that
the FBI determined that every citizen needs during an armed attack.

BTW and FWIW, I would rather take a chance on a perp with a gun; than
I had a perp inside the "21 foot comfort zone" armed with a knife, or some
type of a shank. Most perps carry less than the best firearms; which may
or may not jam; while chances are good a perp inside the "comfort zone"
armed with a hawk bill knife might lay your guts in your hands. :uhoh: :(

buzz_knox
February 12, 2008, 11:15 AM
But, my reasoning is- why let a perp get that close
to you, for you too have to make a nostril shot on a bad guy? I would lots
rather take a shot at him from within the 21 foot "comfort zone" that
the FBI determined that every citizen needs during an armed attack.


Testify, brother. On a side note, I just pray that should that nightmare occur, I get the 21 feet to "play" with.

Mandirigma
February 12, 2008, 12:32 PM
Testify, brother. On a side note, I just pray that should that nightmare occur, I get the 21 feet to "play" with.

amen

IndianaBoy
February 14, 2008, 01:23 PM
I carry a Sig. Not exactly a 2000 dollar gun.

I know lots of guys carrying minty HK P7s around.

farscott
February 18, 2008, 07:01 PM
I severely question the value you recieve for every dollar you pay past $1,000.My current carry pistols were built by John Harrison, one of the LTW smiths. Each pistol cost me somewhat over $3,000. The cost, while not inconsiderable, allows me to carry a gun that fits me and my shooting style. The sight notches and width are paired to work with my eyes, the grip frames have been reduced to work with my small fingers, the triggers break like I want them to break, the trigger pull length is what I want, and the pistols dehorned so as to allow me to carry without tearing up my garments, and all of the little nagging issues for me in a stock 1911 are addressed. The guns are accurate and reliable due to good barrels that are well fit yet require no bushing wrench to field strip and reassemble. I also spent a few bucks on aesthetics because life is too short to carry ugly 1911s. The pistols provide me with confidence that if I do my part, there is no issue. I practice more because the guns are fun to shoot.

I use the pistols; in fact, I use them so much one has been back to John for a new rear sight after I damaged the one it had. One has over 20,000 rounds through it, and the other just crossed the 7,000 round mark. One has been refinished because I wore through the polymer upper finish and the hard chrome lower finish was bare in a few spots. I also went through three holsters in that time. John has also built me guns that are not used as hard, including an ivory-stocked Series '70 with a metal polish that has to be seen to be believed.

Does one have to spend that much money to get a good 1911? No. But one can have a great 1911, and there is a difference between a good 1911 and a great one.

45crittergitter
March 6, 2008, 10:21 PM
I figured my carry gun was my lifesaver, and the money saved on such a device was not of much use to me if the device failed. Likewise, I figured my life was worth over $2k to get the best lifesaver I could use. If I jumped out of airplanes, I would likely choose a premium parachute....

BullfrogKen
March 7, 2008, 02:16 AM
As one who owns and will carry 1911's that go past the $2500 mark, I was tempted to respond to this thread.


But then I read a bit further. And as I saw the responses from others who have similar reasons as me, I also saw them being attacked by those who couldn't appreciate those reasons.


I don't have to justify my choices to anyone. I think the original question was asked with good intentions. But as this thread progressed I've seen a lot of vemon. So I'll keep my reasons to myself. Those of you looking at that choice as "high-brow" and a waste of money wouldn't appreciate those choices, anyway.



Keep this discussion civil, or I will lock it.

Michael Zeleny
March 7, 2008, 11:16 AM
I carry a Sig. Not exactly a 2000 dollar gun.The only real SIG (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=75278) nowadays costs twice as much (http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=92696098). That's what I carry.

NWdude83
March 8, 2008, 12:12 AM
You should only spend $300-$500 on a carry gun, unless you are trying to prove something or compensate for something.

BullfrogKen
March 8, 2008, 12:38 AM
NWdude83 said: You should only spend $300-$500 on a carry gun . . .

Really? And why is that? What would one gain by carrying a cheaper gun, and have lost by carrying a more expensive one?

GunTech
March 8, 2008, 12:48 AM
For those who carry a cheap gun with the worry that it might get taken after a shoot, I have one question: "How much is your life worth"?

I only carry guns that I trust 100%. Some are very expensive. But even a $2000 custom job is cheap compared to the value of your life.

Further, the price of the gun is going to be paltry compared to any legal fees acquired even if never charged. There's a good chance any scumbag you smoke has relatives. It's not uncommon for a shooter, even when exonerated by the police, to be sued. A friend ended up with about $40,000 in debt after a totally justified shooting in which he was not charged criminally.

sm
March 8, 2008, 01:02 AM
-Is a good used police trade in Model 10/64, 19/66 , or 3913 a single mom chooses to buy not as high-end as a NIB version of one these?

-Is the physically limited person with serious hand and wrist problems that buys a good used, LNIB , Tip up Beretta in .380 :
a. Nickel one is more high-end than the blue one?
b. an idiot for paying that much for that gun?
c. stupid for having hand and wrist problems and using a .380 for defensive use?

-Is a Kel-Tec P-11 a high-end gun when the undercover cops uses it to blend in with the thugs that carry Jennings and Bryco's , or outclassed when the higher ups show up with stolen Glocks, Sigs, HKs, Colt Pythons...?

-Is the old bone stock Gov't model of 1911 that runs like a top that someone paid $800 for , less hi-end than the $1200 1911 clone that was in a magazine, and does not run reliably ?

Excuse me, I have to look up some definitions now...

inkhead
March 8, 2008, 05:10 AM
I have plenty of money and I wouldn't spend more than $75 on a 1911. Sorry but there's no point when better, newer firearms exist to pay $2000 for something 10 years older and not as good.

Mandirigma
March 8, 2008, 08:12 AM
....

Double Naught Spy
March 8, 2008, 08:37 AM
And yet, some on this thread would argue you are carrying a "high end" gun in the Kimber, and that with good .38s and surplus Maks available for hundreds of dollars less, you are doing so out of vanity. Strange mindset, no?

Yep and I am sure that folks who attribute high end guns to vanity have such a disdain for vanity that they only drive the least expensive function automobile that they can drive, live in the least expensive functional housing, wear the least expensive functional clothing, etc. They are so obsessed with defending cheaper guns, they have become vane in their crusade for denouncing more expensive guns.

vanzpp said
Unless you can objectively prove that a Glock is LESS reliable than a high-end gun, there's no reason (except vanity) to spend an additional $2,000 for a self-defense gun.

I guess the laser grips he purchased weren't out of vanity for his 642 (one of his carry guns), because they made his gun more reliable and less expensive.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=4134684#post4134684
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=4063142#post4063142

He also shoots some fairly expensive ammunition when cheaper ammunition would do the job. Vanity?
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=329112
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=327979

He carries a fairly expensive Sparks VM2 when we all know there are cheaper holsters available and uses for is Sig P220 that is some 50% more costly than a Glock, but sure this isn't vanity.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=326353

Funny how it is that we a person decides it is okay to spend more money above the level of what would be considered functionally good enough that it isn't vanity, but when somebody else does it, it is. Why is that?

Detachment Charlie
March 9, 2008, 12:33 AM
I like guns and appreciate quality craftsmanship, machining and materials.
The first time I ever HAD to use a handgun, it worked perfectly. It was a S&W M&P .38 Spl. with round nosed lead "widow-maker" bullets.
The next time I HAD to use a handgun it was an Ithica-made .45ACP 1911, genuine Navy issue. It was so loose it really rattled. But, again, it worked as advertised with 230 gr. ball ammo.
Today, I carry a Rock Island Tactical .45 ACP, a Sig 9mm 225 or a S&W 2" Model 10. I want a Sig 220 in .45ACP, only because I like the way they feel and shoot.
If I was goin to a fancy Bar-B-Que, I might break out the fancy gold and silver buckle for my hand-tooled gunbelt and see if I could borrow a fancy $2,000+ pistola from a wealthy friend, just to impress the easily impressed.
These are tools, gentlemen. The tool does not determine the quality of the end product, only the ability of the user.;)
Just my $0.02.

NWdude83
March 10, 2008, 05:31 AM
To those who like to brag about carrying an expensive gun:

How reliable is a "cheap" Glock...?

BullfrogKen
March 10, 2008, 06:04 AM
Who here is bragging NWdude83? And what am I trying to compensate for or prove?

buzz_knox
March 10, 2008, 08:50 AM
To those who like to brag about carrying an expensive gun:

How reliable is a "cheap" Glock...?


Many of those Glocks will cost you more than $500 by the time you get them home.

It's interesting that if a Glock costs $500 or less to you, your opinion is that it's a good gun, while the same gun, should it cost you $501, will be a demonstration of your need to compensate for something.

SAWBONES
March 10, 2008, 08:38 PM
Carry whatever you shoot best (most accurately and fastest), irrespective of cost.
My first handgun, still frequently carried after early 25 years, was an HK P7M8, and I still also carry several different high-end customized 1911s costing $3000-$4000.
I also carry Glocks sometimes.
The cost isn't important.

The point is, I don't choose what I do or don't use for CCW according to cost. Cost simply doesn't enter into the decision at all.

msb45
March 10, 2008, 08:52 PM
I carry a Nighthawk because I am the most accurate with it. If I need to take a shot I don't want my next best shooting gun.

And I won't carry my 686 as it's the first handgun I purchased. I'm more into sentiment than cash.

msb45

Double Naught Spy
March 10, 2008, 09:14 PM
How reliable is a "cheap" Glock...?

All you guys with really good cheap guns, bring them to this match. All you guys with really good expensive guns, bring them. Heck bring any good semi auto pistol. It will be fun to see what sort of reliability turns up with folks' guns, many of whom will be shooting their carry guns. Some will be expensive and some won't.

See...
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=312764&highlight=1000+round+match

TheGrimReaper
March 10, 2008, 11:56 PM
I carry one of the most high end pistols ever made. A Glock 26!!!

bluetopper
March 12, 2008, 08:17 PM
Where can I find this brand of gun called "High End"?

yahkohb
March 12, 2008, 10:36 PM
Carry whatever you shoot best (most accurately and fastest), irrespective of cost.
My first handgun, still frequently carried after early 25 years, was an HK P7M8, and I still also carry several different high-end customized 1911s costing $3000-$4000.
I also carry Glocks sometimes.
The cost isn't important.

The point is, I don't choose what I do or don't use for CCW according to cost. Cost simply doesn't enter into the decision at all.

+1.

I carry a 1911 because I shoot it the best. before that I carried a Glock. The 1911 just works better for me. Now once I settled on the 1911 platform, I chose a Kimber because it has the features I want at a price I could afford. If I could have bought a Nighthawk or Wilson or similar I would have. and I would have no qualms about carrying it.

45crittergitter
March 15, 2008, 05:18 PM
This brings to mind the old bikers' rule: "If you have a $10 head, buy a $10 helmet." :neener:

Markbo
March 16, 2008, 11:04 AM
Where can I find this brand of gun called "High End"?

Same place you can find the proper spelling of Parasite? :neener:

mrshish
March 18, 2008, 01:46 AM
Sometimes I think people buy nice things but don't want to scratch them. I always think of Ferrari's. A Ferrari is basically a street legal race car but most people don't really drive them. Sure they may rev it a little hard now and then but Ferrari's are designed to go hard.

I carry a Wilson Stealth on a daily basis. The aluminum frame keeps it light enough that my pants don't drag around my ankles and being a 1911 it's thin enough to disappear without much work.

I use all my firearms and this one is no different. It's had thousands of rounds through it and the Armor Tuff finish isn't so tough after a couple years of daily carry.

Could I get by with a cheaper gun? Sure. This works for me, it was built to go hard and I treat it that way. It's never failed me and since I train with a 1911 regularly it's the prefect companion for me.

If you want something cheaper and it works for you go for it. Just remember your life will be on the line when you need it. Pick something you have confidence in.

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