[Macmac]

I have a colt ASM 1851 clone here currently for repair. This isn't mine.

This gun has other than ASM parts in it, and the cylinder lock bolt is one of these "other" parts.

At this point time is set, but the bolt is not unlocking, also the bolt where it passes thru the frame is not yet trimmed.

If anyone has a like gun, I would like to hear/read about the shape the lug is poking thru the frame.

Is your lug level if the frame is held with no barrel and no clyinder, with you looking dead on and the gun is held straight facing you?

Trying to be more clear, I will try to rephrase this.

If the gun were clamped in a ordinary vise in a like shooting possition, level with Earth, is the lock lug also about level with Earth?

OR is the lug in a similar angle to the curve aligned with the frame?

I will try to make this more clear too.

With the gun in a vise as above, is the lug following the angle cut in the frame as relief for the cylinder?

There is no need for the vise, as I am just trying to make a mental picture.

.......................................................................................................
In the smithing area there isn't much on any BP guns, so thinking this would get better attention at first I put this here... I suspect it will be moved.

[Im283]

bump, cause it is my revolver!

[mykeal]

I recently acquired an ASM Walker. Dont' know if it will do any good but I'll take a look at the bolt shape and relationship to the frame when I strip it down later this week. It's a 10 year old gun but appears unfired so it's likely to have original ASM parts in it.

[Macmac]

Thank You mykeal. I have my own ideas on this, but I would like to bang hads on the subject some.

I have an 1860 EMF clone I built as a kit.. That is level with Earth..

Im283 saw fit to send this to me as he says.. I didn't want to offer up the who incase he had other views on the subject.

[Old Fuff]

Note that the bolt is not centered in the frame, but offset to the right. Since the cylinder is round the top of the bolt should be slightly angled. If it is flat you won't get full engagement on one side of the notch. As there will be (in theory) some engagement the cylinder may be "slightly locked," but it won't last for long as the notch gets peened and the edge gets rounded.

I've lost count of the bolts I've replaced because someone decided that the top of the ball was crooked and filed it flat. :banghead:

To add: On a Colt open top revolver, the cylinder bolt should start to drop as soon as the hammer is rotated backwards. Otherwise as the hand starts to push on the cylinder's ratchet everything will stop unless the bolt has dropped far enough to unlatch the cylinder. You may have a problem because the bolt isn't dropping early enough, or the hand is too long. These problems are not unusual if someone has bought parts - not necessarily related to the revolver's manufacturer - and just dropped them in.

[Im283]

I will chime in since its my gun.

The gun shot fine with the hand that is in it. there were some contributing issues with the hand and I believe Mac has fixed that. The cylinder bolt is for a pietta gun. I tried to no avail to get ASM parts and settled on others to try it. So I do not think the hand is too long. Though the hand is not the original I believe it is the same length as I recall. Mac has the original for comparison. The only difference is the peg on the hand that fits in the hammer is slightly smaller. I believe mac resolved that issue.

Well that is all i have to add.

Fluff I think you helped greatly describing the angle of the bolt.

[Macmac]

Old Fluff I agree, but in this case the hand turns to full cock and aligns.

However with the gun as one, the timing is such, that the bolt lug does not drop out and the action seizes as it is.

I am seeking full lock, but having the cylinder move.

What I have now is at hammer cocking the hand tries to turn the cylinder, and since the lug hasn't dropped enough it just locks the whole action.

The bolt is a unknown make, but a very nice quailty part. The orginal bolt broke at some point in time.

Another bolt like the one I have was installed, but not correctly. This 2nd bolt was drilled to fit the pin screw, and altered to work as I understand it, but it falied to work for long.

The 2nd bolt hit the frame where the frame turns up and jumped off the hammer cam, which in turn with use, and time damaged the hammer cam, because the bolt hit the frame where at best it is difficult to see.

Since then with a 3rd bolt, seeing this I cut a relief so the bolt can't hit the frame, and welded a little bit of stainless steel, which is harder than the hammer, and I hope soaked in a little carbon, to the cam lug, and shapped that to retain the hammer cam follower, and it does not slide off sideways before half cock anymore.

At first I thought I needed to add more metal in another weld, but there is 0.0015" clearance between the bolt follower, and the hammer cam lug now, so there is no room for more metal on the cam lug.

This new 3rd bolt is factory at the lug, and tilted much like the frame, matching the angles perfectly.

Looking at this face on, the left side of the bolt lug, which is very difficult to see, I think maybe 0.004" of this lug is too high.

I am hoping I can get help in figuring this out some. There is just one more new unaltered bolt, but I do have some time invested in this 3rd one now.

Once I drilled a screw pin hole with number drills to just fit the screw, I placed the broken orginal side by side with the bolt I am working up, and could see how much to remove as there was 0.10" sticking up on this 3rd bolt, over the original.

So out came the marker and a scribe, and I cut to the line, with a dremel tipped in diamond, cleaned that with a emory bit, and buffed with medium course rubber abrasives to a near like mirror so as to reduce rusting.

What I don't know is, how to go about measuring where I can't see, and can't reach.

Right now the lug is fully engaged, but I don't think pushing up on the cylinder, when installed and locked.

One way or another the left side of the bolt lug needs to be lower, or the whole lug needs to come down faster.

I have a 1860 EMF Army that compares in action, but no parts are interchangable.

One other thing I can "test" still is that 2nd bolt, which has been altered at the cam follower, the lug, which I did not do, and the relief which I did do, in the attempt to reuse it, and have 2 bolts still as spares which were all sent.

When this was sent Im283 had also shipped every part he had, to include all the broken ones.


Nice puzzel.. I can get this alone by trial by fire :eek: but thought it might be better to bang heads, which is more fun anyway.

[Old Fuff]

During the 19th century Colt's final assemblers fitted the lockwork in a specific order, which was:

Hammer & trigger
Hand
Bolt

When you replace a part keep in mind that if for example, the relationship between the hammer and bolt is changed, the length of the hand, which was correct before, may not be right in combination with the new bolt.

Or whatever... :banghead:

Remember, it is O.K. to lower the height of the bolt's ball (the part that sticks up through the frame) so long as you maintain the correct angle. You can also cut down the ledge at the front of the bolt, which will tip the bolt's tail down toward the hammer's lug to get faster unlocking. At this point the ball may be too high, but it can be lowered as described above. If it will make you feel any better, working your way up to the job of final assembler at Colt's usually took years...

[Macmac]

Hammer worked with the trigger fine..
Hand needed a little help as the new replaced hand I did not do has a too small boss, so I made a circle shim of steel to take up the slack, something like an eyelet in boot lace holes.

Hammer, hand and shim function pefectly.

The hammer cam to bolt follower wasn't working, as the follower fell off the cam lug, before half cock could be reached.

Weld up can lug and fit.

I had already discovered the bolt pivoted untill it hit the frame which caused the damage to the cam on the hammer.

SO last in order is the bolt lug, but how the heck is this done?

What did "They" do, to fit these "right"?

(A little on me:)
I have built numerouse BP kits, made lock parts for flinters, fixed broken V springs for flinters while at Voo in camp fires as a forge.

The 1860 was a EMF kit. I have a total home build .62 cal flinter with some siler lock parts as bought, but not all the lock is siler.

I was a foreign car tech 25 + years, and do all my own work now.

Once I was given a Win model 100? Not to keep, as it was more than totally taken apart and in boxes with other gun parts, because a real smith took it apart for blueing and instead blew town. I was asked to try and reasemble it and did.

I worked on a 12 Ga side by side that had 2 triggers and doubled at the pull of either one and fixed it.

I do alot of custom work on motor bike engines.

I am not trying to be bragging, but more show this is no more than details in metal to me. I feel a little strange saying these things, but if I don't, no one will understand.

I do Trade Silver in real silver both sterling from sheet, and from coin, at what most folks consider Museum quality, all with home made tools.
I do light forge work too, for 1700-1840.

I still have all my car trade tooling, which is SAE, Metric and British Std.

LOL why I even have for gun only screw drivers! That's low huh? But I hope Im283 will back up here that in this transaction I have been honest, and humble at the same time. I'll let him do that.

But all I need if I need anything is the right tech. I know I can guess my way to a decent fix, at atleast semi proffesional way.

I agree the problem right now is with the bolt, and the height, possibly the angle.

With this done right Im283 gets his shooter back!

Ina bit I am going to have a harder look at the 2nd bolt, installed for grins and see what happens then... I'll get some facts in numbers between the top of this 2nd bolt and the top of this still at factory number 3 bolt. By eye there is over 0.10" now!!

[Macmac]

Remember, it is O.K. to lower the height of the bolt's ball (the part that sticks up through the frame) so long as you maintain the correct angle. You can also cut down the ledge at the front of the bolt, which will tip the bolt's tail down toward the hammer's lug to get faster unlocking. At this point the ball may be too high, but it can be lowered as described above. If it will make you feel any better, working your way up to the job of final assembler at Colt's usually took years...


Now we're cookin' with gas! That is exactly what I was looking for, and not one but two things.

I knew to cut the "ball", but I had no idea about that trick to cut the ledge!

So here are the facts..

The orginal is 0.242 heavy or what i would call .2425"

The one in the gun as it came so the 2nd bolt is 0.263"

The one I am working with is uncut, at 0.271" at factory specs.

All measurements with the mic (old fashioned "C" clamp thang) the bolt is falt up on the bottom side. The high points are where ever on the "ball" is the highest point.


The 2nd bolt will not duck the frame at half cock, and the bolt follower is damaged and so thinner. My feeling is to call it scrap, and move on with the 3rd bolt.

The 3rd bolt isn't damaged and does duck the frame, but not fast enough.

The unmeasurable guess I have is there is 0.0015" clearance, but now I know what I was just told by Old Fuff, I think I'ld like to add more metal, forward of that repair, in such a way as to cam up quicker.

I wonder if I can work up a clearance of 0.0005" between the bolt follower and the cam, and sort of egg that cam too?

Old Fuff You gitcha' a big gold star smack in the middle of ye' ol fore head!

That was some classey answer A+

ps: I typed your name before and added an "L" as in Fluff which is what ya get when you are dyslexic as I am.. sorry about that. I thought it was a hair thing see? ;)

[Macmac]

I took Old Fuff's advise in a way. I re welded the first fix hoping to beef up the cam more. Now to re-cut and see if I need one more weld or not.

Hammer first rule. So Im283 I decided to take a small step back. Weld was added in another place. Once I see what that gets I can go to the bolt step again.

These "So here are the facts.."

"The orginal is 0.242 heavy or what i would call .2425""

"The one in the gun as it came so the 2nd bolt is 0.263""

"The one I am working with is uncut, at 0.271" at factory specs."

[Im283]

I am following along.

[LEE3370]

If you plan to buy ASM parts to repair it with, try Deer Creek. I have got quite a few parts for different models made by ASM from them. They bought out all the parts when CVA stopped selling ASM revolvers.

Deer Creek Products
6989 E Michigan Rd
Waldron, IN 46182
(765) 525-6181

They have no internet site or e-mail. So you have to call them.

[Old Fuff]

The location of the cam on the hammer is critical to the particular bolt that you use. That's one reason that it is important to use replacement parts made by the revolver's manufacturer. In the original hammer ( and some reproductions) a hole was drilled in the hammer and the cam was a seperate part that was press fitted into the hole. On current reproduction hammers I believe the hammer is investment cast, and the cam is part of that casting - which means you can't keep the hammer but replace the cam if it becomes worn.

You need to make a simple fixture which is a base (hardwood or metal) with two pins on which the hammer and bolt can be placed. Then you can see what your are doing. "Back when" Colt made cut away revolvers for instructional purposes.

Always remember a new bolt is not a drop-in part. It is made with extra metal at the fit points so that it can be individually fitted to a particular gun. Getting that correct fit takes both knowledge and experience - which is the reason one didn't become a final assembler at the factory overnight.

[Macmac]

Lee thanks. I am sure that is handy news for Im283 .

Old Fuff , Keep talkin'. I am all ears. To me this is a once in a life time event so far. Im283 can clue us in on what he knows about these bolts, which are much better than the original, IMO.

Taking inti account what you told me beofre I decided to reduce the gap I had and build the cam up more.

You are correct about investment cam on this hammer. I have not yet cut this last drop of weld to be able to see how much it is built.

When I do later today, as it has snowed again, I will be looking at how this 2nd weld fits up. It may be I want one more drop of weld, maybe to create an etcentric (sp) to egg' the cam for a faster drop.

It appears to me IF, I can get that, I can then trim the bolt "ball" less.

The above given specs, at each step are nearly 1/10th" apart from one another. To me that means I have a lot of room to remove metal and fit these parts up in a semi pro way in appearance and action. (semi pro means by hand, and not machined, but still neat, orderly and polished)

This more weld will mean I have a maximum amount of bolt ball to mess around with.

That wood block idea is great... If I thought this venture would be more than once I could mill and drill a steel block. My landlord is a machinist (old school) but has a full blown machine shop. I don't bug him much, but he will do things if I ask.

So at this point I would prefer to use the bolt I had worked with most, because I like the quailty of it, compared to the original. It is likey the first weld could have worked with the things you told me in the first post.

That I could have cut the ledge, to lower the follower, for faster action, and then by doing that it would have raised the "ball" higher.

No matter what the 0.271" is to high as the factory bolt is.

To me, this is a little bit of a challange because I am just drawn that way.
So I want this to end up a nice bit of work, not just for the owner, but for me to know he will be pleased.

You have given me some great lessons.. Thank you. mac

[Im283]

As for the replacement bolts, to the best of my knowledge they are Pietta bolts for their 1851 Navy. After much searching and finally giving up on finding ASM parts I tried various manufacterers parts. The Pietta parts are without a doubt made from a higher quality, harder metal. And that high quality metal aided in harming the cam on my hammer.

As for Deer Creek I believe they are one of the suppliers I tried but had no luck with. Maybe things are different today.

[Macmac]

Im283 Yeah well the bolt was hitting the frame and so coming up very short. So when it did come up short there was no place to go, and the bolt follower did the only thing it could do and that was slice off some cam.

I spent 5 hours just looking, another trying to fix that bolt. It won't be breaking any time soon after get it back.. smile ok?

Even if we had ASM, and I saw what the comparison is I would still want these better bolts. With that said the ASM bolts would still need to be fit.

The orginal had to have been fit, as it is 0.029 inch lower at the "ball". So it stands to reason a new ASM bolt would still need a good fitting to get it working.

[Im283]

Mac, at this point I do not know if this matters really, but the gun had siezed up with the original ASM bolt in it.

I am guessing here, but i now think that the original bolt about wore out and must have become mishapen(?) from firing it over the years, and the last time I shot it was like a straw breaking the camels back.

Does that sound possible even?

I will owe a lifetimes worth of gratitude when you are finished with it.

[Macmac]

Im283,
Yeah who ever fits these parts, probably does it 8 hours a day, as fast as he can, for money. The money is probably pretty low too. So there is a fair chance the bolt never was right.

Theis is the one you taped to the paper, and is in two pieces if i am not in error. The only one that is odd man out, so to speak.

Then you sent me the one in the gun, which is ruined, partly you and partly me, not understanding it was hitting the frame.

Then another new one, that I will be working on as soone as I get the hammer right, which is the one I have been working with.

The last one is untouched by man, other than to look at for referance.

Saying what broke that first original is hard to say and be sure, but there is that chance it was never really right.

I haven't checked the cylinder to be out of round yet. Most of them are not perfect and I don't care who machined it. The lock cuts might varry too, and it does on every gun ever made by anybody.

Machines wear and change what is thought of as being indentical.

I have a Kimber that had to go back. It was flinging cases in my face.. Not good for a ccw gun. It shot low, about 4" at 15 yards, and so then there is no adjustment to make it shoot to point of aim. SO I request a new ft blade.

This happens all the time.. The last gun I bought was a NAA mini in .22lr and .22 mag, and it spit the cylinder pin out every 3rd shot, from being new out of the box. it too went back.

You don't have warrenty, and you can't buy parts, or atleast couldn't. No real smith would waste his time because of money.

That's where I fit in. I can do the add metal remove metal, and am pretty fair at doing so, best of all in this case I am free.. Can't beat tha with a stick..

This is no more than cam's, springs, and levers, to me. There is detail in these, to get timing just right, so it makes for interesting study, like a puzzel.

I didn't need to ask a thing to work this out, but I am glad I did, because I learned a few things from Old Fuff. For what he said he, gets an automatic trust on my part, and a certain amount of earned respect too.

OT maybe: I am a Buck Skinner. This alone makes me odd, and different. Almost always when I get a silver order I make it up and send it out, to be inspected. When the buyer gets to see, touch and inspect he sends the fee.

If he isn't delited he just send the pieces back and I pay him his postage.

So far no one has ever returned 1 item yet, and I have never been burned.

I don't understand pay first, wait, and get possible junk..

Most of the time a buyer sends more money than I asked for which IS the case from last week. The order with the items and shipping was 55 bucks. The buyer sent 65... Happens all the time...

[Im283]

Theis is the one you taped to the paper, and is in two pieces if i am not in error.

this is the original part, is it of any help on the angle or size of the bolt?

[Macmac]

Oh yeah you bet it is! Once I drilled the bolt I am working with I placed it on the screw pin, and placed that broken on next to it, just in my fingers of course. Side by side, and then could see the top side I can't see well was different! It has a relief that the new bolt didn't have!

With a black marker I coated the new bolt on the sides and then with a scribe, holding the original struck a scribed line in the marker.

That made it so I was able to cut off the excess where the bolt hit the frame!

Oh you bet it was a good thing, sending me the broken stuff! You will get every thing back too. Plus a few notes.... This way you can see what I did easier. I beleive in telling cutomers the truth. I believe when they are interested and know the truth they will have confidence.

None of the, as of late, Gets Club for me..

Get in, get out, get paid, not my style. When these guys get done I like to fix what was done after them. Of course this is the same deal you and I have.

You did your best, but were unfamilar. I am also some what unfamilar but with more understanding. Porshce 911's in about 1977 had varrable timing and 2 chains. The chains had oil pressure and spring driven tensioners.

Since I was not a dealer, no one was interested in selling the special tool, so I just made one... I have to this day no idea what their tool looked like, but I still have mine and it did work well.

Today a did some carb work and had no kit, so I just made the parts and gaskets I needed... Going to buy store bought around here makes things take a lot longer.

[Im283]

I can't wait to see what you have done and read the notes. This entire process has been fascinating to me. I have learned more about revolvers in the last two weeks than I ever knew in the previous 49 years.

This Colt fellow must have been very intelligent to have made these things up from scratch

[Old Fuff]

Does the original bolt have the left limb broke off just behind the screw hole? That limb is in effect a flat spring. It is positioned above the hammer cam. When you cock the hammer the cam rotates upward and backwards. When it does this the cam lifts the tail end of the bolt – which rotates on a screw. Therefore the front of the bolt rotates downward in the opposite direction and the ball drops out the cylinder’s notch and releases the cylinder so that it can turn.

Toward the end of the hammer’s cycle the cam rotates out of contact with the bolt and the bolt spring pushes the bolt upward to that it can again lock the cylinder in the next notch.

When the trigger is pulled the hammer rotates forward. The lower tapered surface of the cam bends the bolt’s limb inward until the cam has rotated low enough so that the limb can snap back into its original position. When the limb flexes it should do so from the front of the “U” cut in the bolt, and not from behind the screw. If it’s flexing from behind the screw it will soon break. For obvious reasons the bolt should be spring tempered and not too hard. You shouldn’t have to do any fitting to the cam, which should be as hard as a banker’s heart. There is extra metal on the bolt to do any necessary fitting.

[Macmac]

Old Fuff the original bolt is broken off on the left limb, right at the ball base where it joined to be one, as far forward as is possible. The break is dead flush with the ball.

Everything you said should be true in the action. You have said that prefectly.

However there is a flaw. This hammer isn't all that hard and can be filed pretty easy. The cam was damaged, and the left limb (follower) slipped to the side and fell off the lug before half cock was achieved, as I recieved this gun.

So I have a question. The new bolt is as hard as a bankers heart. (Nice one)

The new bolt had a pivot hole too small for the screw pin to pass, so I used number drills. I used the closest possible size to the pin as I had. I believe it was a 0.126 drill.

The bolt will spin freel on the pin part of the screw, but should the hole be drilled one size larger? As it is there is no wiggle room at all, and appears to be a nice fit, not too tight, and not too loose.

Since weld is all over the place, I can't fit the parts and look this instant. A snow storm and a snow blower stopped me from getting to this task today.

This is great stuff, thanks a lot.

[Mustanger1]

I have a couple new ASM bolts for the 1851/1860 Colt models...Came from VTI.

[Macmac]

Mustanger1 , Are these the same part? Is there any differences you can see?

[Mustanger1]

I never had any reason to compare them to one in a gun. If you want I can take one of my ASM's apart, I have several 1851's, and compare them to the one in the gun. Couldn't do it until tomorrow evening but be more than glad to if you want.

[Im283]

Mac, if you want me to try to order parts let me know I will give it a go.
I have VTI's phone and have ordered from them previously.

But I suspect new parts would just set this project back to square one considering all the work you have done to the existing parts.

Anyway its your call Mac, let me know if you want me to do anything.

[Macmac]

Im283, If I want more parts I will ask.. I figure by llate this afternoon to know if one more bead of weld will be something we need or not. If not we go with the bolt again. If we do the hammer gets a weld and I m right back creating the cam.

The first weld could have worked. This second weld is an attempt to speed things up. Unfortunatley, each weld has unwanted waste, which has to be cut away. Probably hard silver solder would not be hard enough, but it would sure lay down better. Speed isn't the issue is it? No need to answer that I know speed isn't the issue, quaility is.

There is an old mechanics saying.

You can have Quailty.
You can have Fast.
You can have Cheap.
Pick one.

Mustanger1 , I don't need you to take the guns apart, but was more wondering if you had spare parts, that you could look at side by side, prehaps sliding an 8 penny, or maybe a 10 penny common nail in the screw hole, so as to align the parts.

More over to see if the 51' bolt and the 60' are exactly the same, as new unfitted parts.

One other comparision, isn't that important, but if you pulled the barrels and the cylinders of the frame, and then held the frame straigh on, pointing directly at you face.

See hard, the angles the top of the ball on the bolt sticking up thru the frame is?

Is it more level with Earth, or more following the angle of the frame cutout for the clyinder? maybe something in between???

IF you have a micrometer, I might like measurements from below the ball on the bolt to wha ever point on the ball is the highest point.

This is more or less to satisfy my curiosity, so don't go wild and tear lots of stuff apart.

[Old Fuff]

At this point I think you should consider a new ASM hammer. The location and shape of the bolt cam is critical, and you may not be able to get this with a weld if you have nothing left of the original cam to work with.

Should you get a new hammer I would, after preliminary fitting, case harden the lower part where the cam and trigger notches are with Kasenit, which is available from: www.brownells.com (item # 479-001-100). This will not effect the cosmetics of the hammer after it is assembled.

It seems that all of the Italian makers have gone to investment casting the hammer with the cam being an integral part. The hammers themselves are colored to look like they were case hardened, but in fact aren’t. As soon as the soft cam wears the only solution may be to replace the whole hammer. This frankly is for the birds, and very few if any buyers know about it.

Hammers made for the second issue Colt’s may, or may not still be available from: www.e-gunparts.com (part # 177770) were made from castings provided by Uberti, but finished by Colt. While expensive they are really case hardened, and not just colored to look like it.

Incidentally, hammers made by any of the makers will fit THEIR models 1851 Navy, 1861 Navy and 1860 Army models. If you don’t find a part listed under your particular model check out the other two. The same can be said about all of the other lockwork parts, including in particular, cylinder bolts.

[Im283]

I know speed isn't the issue, quaility is.

+1 Mac

if you have nothing left of the original cam to work with.

Old Fluff the original cam was/is on the hammer, probably was just worn down from use??.

[Old Fuff]

Old Fluff the original cam was/is on the hammer, probably was just worn down from use??.

I presume that's the case, but because of the cam's location it is very difficult to correctly shape the weld, and the shape, diameter and location is critical. I said, "should consider" on purpose. If the original hammer can be correctly fixed it should be, but at some point the issue of getting a new hammer should come into consideration. If the cam isn't right all that will happen is that additional bolts will be installed but still not work. Or if one does work but the cam is too high the bolt will soon break. Colt made the cam seperate from the hammer for good reason, and replacement was one of them.

[Macmac]

Old Fuff, Bingo!

""""It seems that all of the Italian makers have gone to investment casting the hammer with the cam being an integral part. The hammers themselves are colored to look like they were case hardened, but in fact aren’t. As soon as the soft cam wears the only solution may be to replace the whole hammer. This frankly is for the birds, and very few if any buyers know about it.""""


The cam was partly sheared off maybe 1/3 of it. In this way the left limb slipped off before getting to half cock.

There is enough left to follow the pattern.

I have a little cloth bag of casinite right here in a tool box.. My main use of it is to case harden the faces of a frizzen, for better spark. The method I use leaves the front face, facing the gun from th WRONG end, soft, so just the flint strike side gets cased. This leaves the impact of a strike in such away as to not snap off the frizzen. I heat sink away heat from the pan cover as well.

With all you know which is selfevident I wonder have you worked on flint locks, meaning the lock itself?

I once hammer forged a file thin, and hot riveted that shaped section of the file to a frizzen. The file pieces was not welded to the frizzen. Then just the file was re-hardened in place. Talk about sparks. The first test snap I happened to be in mocs, not wearing socks on my feet, and the sparks sort of tickeled my feet :eek:

I had seen a picture in a book of a gun in a museum and just had to see how that would work..

I am back for the day, so more info will be forth coming next time I post...

I hope I don't need that 3rd bead, but if I do it will happen, and I will have less to say. If this 2nd weld suits the gun action, then I will have more to say.

Tell me about the screw pin to bolt relief please? As it is now the fit seems right, not to tight and not too loose.

If you can, tell me what the cause is for the bolt to break flush with the ball?

[Old Fuff]

With all you know which is selfevident I wonder have you worked on flint locks, meaning the lock itself?

During my mis-spent youth I did all sorts of awfull things... :eek: :D

Some of the 18th century locks were made with serrated back faces on the frizzen before they were hardened. A hard frizzen in necessary to get any sparks at all. You're the first one I've heard of that hardened the back face while using a heat sink on the rest of the part. I know that some of the original frizzens were packed in clay to retard hardening some surfaces.

On some bolts the slot between the two limbs is made with a square cutter that leaves a square cut with sharp corners at the front. The sharp corners can and do cause stress risers that can lead to a crack. A better way is to use a cutter that leaves a "U" shape. Some 'smiths will polish the inside surfaces of the slot to remove tool marks that might have the same effect.

If the shank of the screw is sliding freely through the hole in the bolt you should be O.K.

To prevent the limb on the bolt from sliding off the cam, the bearing surface of the cam MUST BE 90 degrees to the hammer or slightly undercut. That's another reason Colt made the cam using a pin mounted through a hole in the hammer.

[Im283]

cause is for the bolt to break flush with the ball?

Mac, I think I broke that messing with the part. Did I not tell you that?

Anyway that part did not break because of any action involved with the gun.

[Macmac]

I had the idea it broke when you were shooting the gun. The written word and me don't always get it!

Anyway The hammer is as good as it will ever be. The cam is in close contact, meaning that it moves the bolt down with no delay in the action, and is staying down at 1/2 cock. By the TIME you get to full cock the hammer has cleared the limb. So the bolt snaps off the cam.

I have the fasted possible bolt action.

I checked the bolt and all of these bolts the slot between the two limbs is made with a square cutter that leaves a square cut with sharp corners at the front.

However the one I am using has more metal in width. I have no tool that can fit between the limbs to measure how thick the limbs are.

Once the bolt cleared the cam coming from full cock, beacause i had no choice but to add metal, and it is added looking like an egg on a car cam shaft too!

I pulled the ALL the parts from the frame and used black marker on the "ball", then installed everything EXCEPT the hammer, and drew a scribed line in the marker.

Then I installed the hammer and drew another scribed line.

I removed ALL the parts once again and can see a nice single scribed line.

SO NOW is cutting the ball to size time.

I get one chance to get this right.

I have 2 choices it seems.

Level the high left side facing the frame in my face, or stay with the contour.

need to edit in the figures on pg 1..

Old Fuff, yeah I figured square at the working cam sufarface was a + it is square as I can make and fairly square, amd if any slope exisits it is to the hammer wall.

When I got it, the slope was running off and is partly why welding was done.

With out welding there is no way I know to add metal. I will see if the stainless rods say what alloy they are, but what ever they are they are hard for stainless steel.

This is all polished now at the cam. The working edge is polished and the cam face is also polished.

Bolt specs:

The orginal is 0.242 heavy or what i would call .2425"

The one in the gun as it came so the 2nd bolt is 0.263"

The one I am working with is uncut, at 0.271" at factory specs.


0.271"
- 0.263"
---------
0.008"
__________

0.271"
-0.2425"
------------
0.0285

hmmmm

Somewhere between these answers if what i want...

[Im283]

Mac said

I had the idea it broke when you were shooting the gun.

Well I guess that is sort of correct. I shot the gun one day, took it apart for cleaning and when I re-assembled it the hammer would not work and the cylinder would not turn. When I tried to figure out what was wrong the part broke. So while it is correct that I broke the bolt, the gun had stopped working before that happened.

This next part is probably laughable to someone like you who knows what you are doing, but for shaping the bolt could a mold (wax?) be made of the bolt indention on the cylinder? And the bolt shaped to be consistant with the indention on the cylinder? Okay that is probably stupid.

[Old Fuff]

Hold up on the bolt, and I'll get you a drawing... :cool:

[Macmac]

Not a very bad idea, but it would requier a test bolt. One that has the same fit but no ball. Thusly the bolt would be all metal except the ball would be cut off and a wax ball made on the base of the bolt left over.

This would result in a cast of what the real bolt needs to be. I haven't yet cut the ball.

I want to see what Old Fuff has to say, and review everything he has said.

I am sure he will, but if for any reason he doesn't I can still get this.

What I am mainly interested in is which way to go. Square up the bolt ball or angle it like it is..

I know it is over sized. Making it smaller is a no brainer, but which method is the best?

Your original is squared level with Earth, so is my 1860.

Now I don't know how Old Fuff knows this stuff, but he does. He knows it so well he can type it with out much thought, and it works out, and I can see that he KNOWS.

I know I can make it work, but I want it to be the best you ever had it ... Old Fuff knows how to get that. Me: I'm waiting for a few more words, I am pretty sure he will tell us..


I think this thread is great. I get to learn more, and I belive you are.

That 2nd bolt you had that working awhile. What do you recall about getting that to work?

That bolt was locking on the frame, and caused some of the damage, but it worked right? The ball on that one is bigger than the original by 0.020" heavy, which is midway between numbers on my micrometer as apx 0.0205, almost 0.021"

That figure 0.020 is bigger than old cars with points gap, and not much smaller than old car plug gap.

Taking that much metal off with no cares is a no brainer. Any fool with a grinder can take that and more in a second on any grinder..

So it is a matter of finess to remove a near amount maybe, and have it still take a polish, and not look like a butcher job.

I still have a few tricks waiting.

One is use feeler gauges and see what the distance is between the clyinder in several places, knowing no clyinder is really round; and the frame.

I can and was planning to stick a dob of wax in a cylinder lock slot, not that the one I choose is like any of the others either, and perhaps check a few of the others as well.

That done with the bolt as is.. Have a look at the wax and see if any gets pushed out and where any stays... I assume you are following this line of thought.

If I worked on only things I ever knew before I wouldn't get much work done eh? I have worked on a great deal of things far older than I am. People expect me to know all these things like somehow I should too!

Oh sure I know all about chrystler 331 engines made in 1953 when I was 2. Oh yeah, sure..:what: That one turned out as who ever wrote the book for these marine engines had no clue. 2 engines, one clockwise, and one counter clockwise in for a total over haul. I mean everything was rebuilt, starters to gennies, carbs to manifolds, everything.

Well that book had the same firing order for both engines. WRONG

I was gifted with a restoration on a 56 Porsche 356 B. I think the B was for bathtub, or something. Anyway I said yes, and that car was in mixed boxes with mixed parts as if a giant dumped all the parts in a refer box, and shook it, then dumped a little bit in about 8 other boxes.

There was 1 piston in each box, and the connecting rods were in other boxes with ft bumper parts, and parts of the trannie were in with interoir parts. Tha whole car was in bits and pieces not just the engine.

I drove that car myself on the test ride. I just love it when no one else wants the job..

[Macmac]

I knew it! Haa Haa haa evil grin... :evil:

[Old Fuff]

The attached picture is of an 1873 Single Action Army, but the lockwork between it and the 1851 Navy is the same except for the hammer and hand. This front view will show you the relationship between the frame, bolt and cylinder.

==================================================================================

Sorry guys, but I don't seem to be able to upload the drawing in either .jpg or .doc formats. See if you can download the attachment into your computer. It's a Microsoft WORD 2000 document.

[Im283]

That 2nd bolt you had that working awhile. What do you recall about getting that to work?

That bolt was locking on the frame, and caused some of the damage, but it worked right?

I only ever installed one replacement bolt. That would be the bolt that was in the gun when I shipped it to you. I never had that in working order, everything I tried failed.

You can see my crude grinding marks on it. I got it to fit in the frame ( I thought) and into the cylinder but it never worked.

[Macmac]

working on some way to open it

[Im283]

deleted by me

[Macmac]

or me my profile is open to email mac_muz15@hotmaildotcom

I am no computer wizz though...

[Macmac]

mod's delete my compute had a spazam thank you

[Old Fuff]

E-Mail message with attachment sent to Im283. Now we will see...

Ignore the attachment on this post. It doesn't seem to be working. :cuss:

[Im283]

Old Fluffs colt diagram

[Old Fuff]

E-Mail message sent to Macmac with the attachment in .jpg (image) format. Now we shall see.

[Old Fuff]

The link posted by Im283 works for me. If my e-mails don't work go to it.

[Macmac]

I must have use all the ram in this very tired system, sorry..

By way of the link I see the ball is angled. Where does this document come from? Is that correct? I see an air gap between the bolt and the cylinder slot.

Should there be?

[Im283]

here is a pic of the gun Mac is working on,

[Macmac]

Old Fuff, email returned saying thanks..

[Old Fuff]

Well at last! I have no idea why The High Road isn't working. I've posted pictures before without all this trouble.

Anyway...

By way of the link I see the ball is angled. Where does this document come from? Is that correct? I see an air gap between the bolt and the cylinder slot. Should there be?

Yes, the angle is correct. When viewed from the front the ball has to be angled because the cylinder is round, and the bolt is offset from the frame's center line. The gap you see isn't necessary, but they drew it that way for purposes of illustration. The drawing is from: The Colt Single Action Revolvers - A Shop Manual (Volumes 1 & 2) by Jerry Kuhnhausen. It's available from: www.brownells.com

[Macmac]

Oh that means something, as I have Jerry Kuhnhausen's book on mausers! Little pricey but well worth the books if you fiddle.. I should have known.

Old Fuff , do the figures I posted mean anything to you? Do you work with figures like these?

What I think I need to do is then stay with the angle on the new bolt and remove 0.008" and check, then remove a little more and check.

I wasn't sure about the level with Earth that my 1860 is and the original bolt in this 51 is.. I have the orginal, which I think you know.

[Mustanger1]

I took one 1851 apart to compare the VTI bolt to the one in the gun. It would take a lot of modification to ever fit right. The hole in the bolt assembly for the frame bolt is even wrong, to small, certainly not an ASM part. Sorry I could'nt be of any help except I would be very careful if ordering any parts fron VTI.........

[Macmac]

Mustanger1. Sure enought the hole in the bolt is too small, but a 0.126 drill bit fixed that...

Today, in a few moments with more assitance coming from Old Fuff, via e-mail, I will be rigging a vise with a wire to mount the bolt on an angel.

The vise will be clamped to a drill press. The drill press with get a rubber buff with course abraisives. This will maintain the 'ball' angle, and at the same time cut minimal amopunts of steel off the ball, keeping the ball rounded.

The plan so far is to remove 0.004" and check things. Then another 0.004".

BEFORE that happens however I am going to look over the duel springs and see if I can pull off a trick Old Fuff related to me in the e-mail so i can see better. The idea is to cut off the trigger side of a duel spring so you can see better. I will see if there is a broken spring I can alter for the effect and not butcher a good one already supplied..

If not, then perhaps select one of the several others that is least likely to ever be used.

This post will be updated as things happen. If my old camera can get any pics I will try to get them on here at some point in the future, not today..

I hope by later today to have a working action.. We'll see.

[Im283]

Mac I can't remember exactly how many of what parts I had to send you but if there is a duel spring you need to canabalize for this go right ahead and do it.

I have to leave for work here in a bit but i will check back the first chance I get when I am there. i would love to see a pic of what is going on. Sounds like you are close to having this thing licked.

When you have this fixed you ought to go into the Colt gunsmithing business!

[Macmac]

Oh well did I ever hanve a heck of an evening. Why it's alomost 2:30 in the AM No it wasn't a simple gun that did this to me, not not that...
My damn computer CRASHED big time. This is my first post, and this system is skree-ued still. I guess I got some diddlin' to do now Mista'.

The good thing is this gun runs like a clock!

Since is a tad late for this heya ol' chil, I guess maybe I'll go take in a snooze, but feel free to give up a yelp, or at least a huzza.

Now I have it working I'ld like to take a few moments and see if I can bash that camera into working, and go over things to be 110% sure.

Feels pretty smooth to me, and there are no hang up, slips, or for fooie cogs in the gears.

Im283 , check for a pm, as I do not know if this damnned system will come on line again. I am going to put my phone number there for you as just now I don't recall if we traded, and if this system does go to hell in a hand basket I need contact info over the phone.

[Im283]

Wow!! I am so sorry to read you are having PC troubles but I am happy to read the gun is running again!!

Huzza Huzza Huzza!!

I go the PM and will call you later today, gonna give you chance to sleep in.

Dang I got a big ole smile on my face right now:D:D:D

Don't know how to ever re-pay you on this but I will come up with something.

[Old Fuff]

Send him a copy of The Colt Single Action Revolvers - A Shop Manual; Vol. 1 & 2 by Jerry Kuhanhausen (available at www.brownells.com or www.gunbooks.com).

But read it yourself first... :evil:

[Macmac]

LOL for what that costs you will have a good chunk of change, for a new gun!

I hate computers! it is still a royal mess.. Even the text looks funny. Some setting somewhere. i hate hunting for drivers too. Keep that phone number! I don't trust this system for beans..

[Im283]

Mac, are you gonna shoot it or save that honor for me?
If you want to I say go right ahead and let her rip!

[Macmac]

I can tell it will go boom.... You get the honors.. I assume you will enjoy that. Why if I was ta' go out there, in that white stuff, which we have plenty of, well that dreaded yankee snow might do sumpin' to the finish!

I did something right, this site looks like normal.

[Im283]

The '51 Navy arrived in the mail today!! Woohoo.

Unfortunately I do not have time to check it out as I am at work. But tonight or tomorrow I will give it a once over and see what is what on it.

Thanks Mac

[Macmac]

Pm sent. Yeah sure sing out on here I did ;-)