Haven't taken my ccw class yet. But I'm sorry if this sounds like a stupid question or even a crazy thing to do, but who carries their concealed weapon to church? or are you even allowed too? Thanks.
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January 17, 2008, 09:53 PM
It's legal for me to and I do. Whackos shoot up churches, too.
January 17, 2008, 09:57 PM
Depends on the state. In Michigan it's legal with the permission of the chief church official. I have it and I do.
January 17, 2008, 10:03 PM
Disgruntled ex's & crazies have opened fire in churches before & I'm sure it'll happen again. I carry in church & pray I'm being silly....
January 17, 2008, 10:17 PM
A couple of weeks ago a woman was shot to death in front of her mother by her estranged husband, soon to be x-husband. It happened on a Sunday in the church parking lot, during church services. He shot a total ten times at point blank range, kept shooting after she went down.
It was the woman's 30th birthday ... she leaves behind two young children.
Btw … our church does not allow guns.
January 17, 2008, 10:22 PM
Please do conceal, open carry in church makes preachers nervous :)
lee n. field
January 17, 2008, 10:38 PM
but who carries their concealed weapon to church? or are you even allowed too? Thanks.
Post count of 2, so you're probably new here.
This question comes up frequently. You should use the search function.
Does it happen? Yes. Is it allowed? Depends on the state.
Me? This is Illinois, dude.:barf:
January 17, 2008, 10:42 PM
If I belonged to a church that specifically posted no guns allowed,I would find another church.The church may be able to save my soul,but it's up to me to save my butt.
The Lone Haranguer
January 17, 2008, 10:44 PM
Well, concealed means concealed, as they say. I am not a church-going person, but if I were, I would.
I've even heard tiny hideout guns called "church guns," as another way of saying to carry one when you simply cannot carry anything bigger.
January 17, 2008, 11:26 PM
I have, on occasion, carried where I attend church. I knew of at least one other person that does as well.
Here (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=331896) is another thread on concealed carry at church.
Hope it helps,
January 18, 2008, 11:21 AM
After what has happened in the recent past I will carry in church. If the paster doesn't like it...There are other churches that like my donations...And "concealed is concealed"...
January 18, 2008, 01:29 PM
Agreed. I always carry my P3AT in my sunday-go-to-meeting suit as well as my Tuxedo on those special occassions. If I dress down while at a service, I will carry a 642 in a Mika Holster. I do not, however, for some odd reason, ever carry my .45 ACP or .357 mag IWB/OWB while in church. Hmmm, guess I just do this to insure that it is never discovered that I carry while in church moreso than out of respect or anything. My church is full of tree huggers.
January 18, 2008, 02:32 PM
yes. i think there are at least 3 guys/gals who carry in my small group class on sundays. i prefer an ankle hostler, since the old ladies like to hug everyone.
January 18, 2008, 03:50 PM
I carry in church every week.
January 18, 2008, 03:54 PM
Just how low do they "hug" anyway...If they find my M43 at 4:00 IWB holster I might want to have a look at your church...Or do some wallet checking...:D
January 18, 2008, 04:06 PM
CCW in a church in Nebraska is illegal. Check your state statutes, and don't bang the butt of the gun on the pew when you sit. A "tactical lean" will help avoid this.
January 18, 2008, 04:07 PM
It's illegal to carry in church in Ga. Sometimes I break the law and carry a taurus 85 hammerless to the services. The congregation probably wouldn't mind if they knew, but I don't let anyone know anyway.
January 18, 2008, 04:07 PM
I carry at church. Every Wednesday night there is a kids program that I help out with. There are 20 or so kids in the class. But the thing is that it is held in a building that is about 20 yards from the main building. That concerns me somewhat so I carry. I also try to keep tabs on the kids that are being escorted to the bathroom - often by teenage girls. I would hate for anyone to be hurt along the way. Nobody but my wife knows (she carries too) but I took my CCW class with one of the other teachers so I assume that they would be okay with it.
I also carry during the regular services but I have so far elected to disarm while I am preaching (I teach regularly but I am not the pastor). I don't need to be concerned with printing or anything while I am delivering the message.
January 18, 2008, 04:22 PM
My pastor knows I carry everywhere I go and actually told me he is comforted that a few of us carry in the congregation, He may be my Shepard but I ain't no SHEEP!!!
January 18, 2008, 04:50 PM
If you carry concealed nobody else knows so what does it matter how (or how not) your church might be posted as to concealed carry? I have carried concealed in excess of 40 years and have carried to church every time I go.
January 18, 2008, 05:02 PM
The ankle holster comes into its own when carrying in church. Not only does it conceal well but drawing from a sitting position (as you sit on that hard-seated pew whilst sneaking peeks at your watch) is one of the ankle holster's few fortes.
January 18, 2008, 05:56 PM
Only at church-weddings, & especially the receptions...They some times get too wild & plenty of "party-crashers"....:)
January 18, 2008, 06:17 PM
I do. It's legal in KY.
January 18, 2008, 06:19 PM
I've carried for years - and will certainly continue to do so - not only for the good of my loved ones but to intervene in the case of someone who becomes a threat.
In Colorado only the willingness of a legally-armed CCW permit holder to engage the bad guy saved lives. The media made much of her hero status but always emphasized she was an ex-cop and they constantly referred to her a 'security guard'.
She was in fact a valid CCW permit holder in Colorado who volunteered the day before to her pastor because of events in Denver. Thank goodness she was there, trained and ready to engage.
January 18, 2008, 09:36 PM
I always carry in our church.
January 19, 2008, 01:39 AM
I do, Pastor likes it, and we have a small cadre of P2C people who try to keep at least three of us at all meetings. We have not needed to use firearms yet, but we have been glad a couple of times that we had that option, we had a disgruntled ex show up at church trying to get his kids back, he was drunk at 8 45 AM, we were able to strong arm him away from the nursery, but had he been armed, there were two men at the end of the build ing armed. Cops arrested him on trespass and violation of a TRO.
We recently paid the fees for two of teh women who work at church to get their P2C because they have felt fear with people coming in and demanding help financially. so far, the panic button alarm has worked, but now they have an option beyond that.
January 19, 2008, 01:59 AM
Like someone above mentioned, the LDS church, within Utah, is legally restricted from carry. (Utah allows houses of worship to add themselves to the list of prohibited places.)
HERE'S THE THING: I go to church unarmed (by guns at least) and I do feel naked for those three hours. I am not as good of a member as I should be. I don't go as often as I should. BUT, to me, going to church is a process of surrendering yourself to higher authority and power. You put your life in His hands. There is no promise that you will be safer for doing so. You do it for the same reason you make any other sacrifice toward your faith. Not what I prefer, and not like most of the others have posted here, but if I am serious about my faith, it is part of the process.
Having said that, if (or when) I move to AZ, I will be packing.
January 19, 2008, 02:21 AM
It's legal for me to and I do.
January 19, 2008, 04:56 AM
Hey,mljdechard, I fully appreciate where you're coming from and mostly agree with you. But, I have to ask: When you go to church, do you wear your car safety belts?
January 19, 2008, 12:41 PM
In Ohio, it is illegal to carry a concealed firearm on church grounds unless permission is given.
January 19, 2008, 06:05 PM
I recently attended a Utah CCW course & the instructor said something that made me re think my carry do's & don't.
Look at the penalty for the area's you're not allowed to carry. He pointed out that in most of the cases were I was not legal carrying, there was no real penalty for doing so. I might get asked to leave if spotted, but no criminal charges unless I refused to leave when asked. I carry concealed everywhere, except where the penalty for being there armed is extreme.
Concealed means concealed & not discussed. I'm sure the appologies will not be a problem if the need to draw happens & you save the congregation.
January 19, 2008, 06:39 PM
I agree with LT1Coupe,
If you properly conceal you weapon accordingly, and no one can determine if you have a weapon, how is anyone to know that you have a weapon, UNLESS you go telling someone or are carrying something that's not suited for concealment.
I choose to carry everywhere I can, unless I'm "asked" not to.
January 19, 2008, 07:04 PM
I am kathlic and our pastor had a stocker and I was one of the poeple greeding everyone of a while!
So our father knows and is perfectly OK with it and even if he would not, it's leagal in Maine.
I carry anywhere and where it's not leagal, I don't go!
January 19, 2008, 07:08 PM
I had my seacamp on me when I got married. You never know
January 19, 2008, 07:18 PM
I got married 14 years ago and you bet, I had my P7M13 with me, as I did when my daughter and son were born!
January 19, 2008, 07:23 PM
The Plinker family was at dinner last night with our pastor and his wife at their house, along with a newer member of the congregation. Handguns and self defense came up during the course of the evening. Our pastor has his permit, but does not carry. He knows I do, and is fine with it. We were showing the new person our personal sidearms and explaining the biblical concept of self defense, along with the responsibility of stewardship and taking care of those things and people God has entrusted to our care.
Yes, I carry in church.
January 19, 2008, 08:54 PM
Here in Virginia, the law is as follows:
"§ 18.2-283. Carrying dangerous weapon to place of religious worship.
If any person carry any gun, pistol, bowie knife, dagger or other dangerous weapon, without good and sufficient reason, to a place of worship while a meeting for religious purposes is being held at such place he shall be guilty of a Class 4 misdemeanor.
(Code 1950, § 18.1-241; 1960, c. 358; 1962, c. 411; 1975, cc. 14, 15.) "
I guess that is so it is ok to drop by the church during the week and help with clean up or visit the parson, but we don't want anyone causing a ruckus during the services. Oh, and do notice the phrase "without good and sufficient reason." I think that means you best be ready to 'splain it to the judge if the question arises.
IANAL, so any comment I make here is totally uneducated opinion on the above citation, and not a legal interpretation.
On this topic, recently on the G. Gordon Liddy radio show I heard him describe how he was carrying under his tuxedo at his own wedding. He was an active FBI agent at the time. He said that J. Edgar's policy was that agents
were not required to carry off duty, BUT, if there was ever an incident that they needed their gun and had none, there would be major repercussions.
January 19, 2008, 09:06 PM
Craig, I was wondering what "good and sufficient reson" really means? I was thinking of asking our pastor if he'd like me to work volunteer security (I did before i joined the military). I figure if he says yes, that should fall under "good and sufficient reason".
January 19, 2008, 11:02 PM
I would think "ensuring the safety of parishioners" would be a good and sufficient reason, but I bet it would depend on the judge.
I carry in church, ankle holster sometimes but usually just IWB. It's legal here, and I feel it's my responsibility to protect those who are unable or unwilling to protect themselves.
January 19, 2008, 11:06 PM
My thinking is that for the somewhat foreseeable future (as in at least the next year), "Remember what happened in Colorado?" should be a "good and sufficient reason." Of course, IANAL.
That said, I can't see how you would get in trouble unless you had a snitchy person at your parish who made you. In liturgical denominations, you're probably pretty safe, and even in the more huggy Evangelical and Charismatic denominations the worst I could imagine from anyone I've known is a "stern talking-to" about the importance of trusting in God.
The only real ways I could imagine to get made would be if I got bumped or was careless and accidentally exposed (or, God forbid, [I]dropped) in some aisle or lobby. If I were to carry in church (no comment either way), I'd use something with a strap and probably even carry in Condition Three. The repercussions for getting discovered outweigh the odds that I'll have to draw and fire in less than two seconds.
January 19, 2008, 11:13 PM
"if I got bumped or was careless and accidentally exposed (or, God forbid, dropped) in some aisle "
I seem to recall a news item within the past six months of an older gentleman in Texas who dropped his carry gun in the pew, and when it hit the floor it went off. Maybe some one here has the link?
January 19, 2008, 11:53 PM
No problem in Washington State churches. I usually use appendix carry, what with the hugs and all :)
Our minister is into guns too, and appreciates members who pack.
January 20, 2008, 01:20 PM
... without good and sufficient reason...
good and sufficient enough?
January 20, 2008, 02:00 PM
Ohio's Concealed Carry Law pamphlet from the Ohio Attorney General's office lists places of worship as one of the 'Forbidden Carry Zones' unless the place of worship permits otherwise. So you legally cannot carry unless you have permission, but it does not tell you who to get permission from. My pastor has given me permission and knows that I do carry regularly. I also fill the pulpit occasionally and carry then as well.
January 20, 2008, 07:07 PM
Swampwolf -it's not quite that simple. I always follow the law. The law requires that I wear a seatbelt. The law requires that I not carry a concealed weapon to church. It's illegal as well as disrespectful, whether I get caught or not. Just because I could get away with it doesn't make it legal.
In The High Road, we follow the law.
January 20, 2008, 07:43 PM
January 20, 2008, 08:29 PM
Legal in OK, so I do. I did today. I had a moderately scary experience a few years ago while at a committee meeting. The door flew open and we heard some voices laughing and running off. The next week the same thing happened, except we heard someone outside say "Satan's here!" I had my hand near my Glock 26. As mentioned above, ankle carry is good when the hug bunnies take over your church.
For those who say God will protect, does the church have a fire extinguisher? Does it have insurance? If it does, then avoiding guns is just hoplophobia.
January 20, 2008, 10:06 PM
I always carry in church. Bad guys have no respect for churches and to leave it in your car while you are in church is stupid. Church parking lots during servies are a prime target for car burglaries. Besides, you have to transit indian country on your way to and from church.
January 21, 2008, 12:02 AM
NC might have some restrictive CC laws, but at least we can carry in church.
I don't get what the big church carry taboo is all about anyway. I mean God is everywhere. He certainly knows I carry. I'm carrying if I'm praying or otherwise worshiping in any other time of the week.
January 21, 2008, 01:35 AM
Churches are prime targets. Criminals and terrorists believe them to be full of sheeple. That's why when I go I have a .45 on me at all times. My state allows Churches to opt out, but mine hasn't. And if it does, I'll still carry as an LEO the way state law allows.
January 21, 2008, 04:20 AM
mljdeckard: Legalities aside for the sake of argument, I thought you were saying that "though you felt naked (without your gun) for those three hours" ,as evidence of your faith in God you willingly "laid down your arms" during your time of worship as a sacrificial gesture, trusting Him to keep you from harm and danger. I used the seatbelt analogy to pose the question that if you can trust Him to protect you in church unarmed ,can you trust Him to protect you in your car unbelted? But, now addressing the legalities in the matter- because no one is suggesting that anybody should be a law-breaker (I spent thirty years helping to enforce the law before my retirement), if we really have faith in God to protect us from harm and danger, why carry a gun at all, even in those places where it is legal to do so? I don't think God's loving arms are unwrapped as we exit the doors of our church.
I'm not trying to argue or even disagree with you. I guess what I'm trying to say is that God expects us to use common sense in our everyday lives and, because His word has taught us that the world is full of evil and violent men, He probably expects us to to defend ourselves and our family and loved ones in the best way we can, at all times and places, even in our sanctuaries of worship. Whenever it's legal, of course. :)
January 21, 2008, 05:59 AM
TheNoid presents what it means then everybody can to carry. Peoples e.g. start to shoot
in the church. Now i know, is very ordinary in USA (http://www.denverpost.com/ci7682958 ). I think you must to do something els than carry also.
January 21, 2008, 06:27 AM
Here nobody ordinary citzen carry guns. Tere are no terrorists. Islamics are speacefull. Only fev Hell Angles, drug dealers and criminals are shooting aech other. I donīt care what they are doing. My contry is very good place me, my family and every body ordinary citizen to live. Belive it. If donīt, come and see.
January 21, 2008, 02:56 PM
I never said that making the gesture comes with a promise of safety. Being faithful means that you surrender to higher authority. If I didn't believe in that authority, I wouldn't be in church at all.
I also said that when I live in AZ, I will carry anyway.
January 21, 2008, 02:58 PM
Congratulations. I have no reason to doubt you about Finland. The situation is a whole lot very much distressingly real and scary different in USA, Canada, UK, Australia, France, Germany, Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, Israel, Saudi Arabia, Sudan (Darfur), Nigeria, etc.
Each of our countries has made a variety of societal and governmental decisions on how to deal with our realities of crime, terrorism, cultural and ethnic conflict, violence and evil. Our choices on firearms are only part of the set of decisions. And, I dare say, in all of these countries, there are varied opinions among the populace about whether the current official, governmental, legal decisions are best, or even right. My own country of USA seems to have one of the best environments in the world for freely expressing such disagreements and working in a non-violent way to discuss, reconcile, and reconsider.
Thanks for the invitation, but I think I'll stay here. Besides, you folks are a whole lot closer to the Arctic Circle than my US. southernboy roots ever want me to be. Heck, I'm not even big on going to the northernmost States here in my own country. Too dang cold!
January 21, 2008, 03:10 PM
I never made it to Finland, but I lived two years in Denmark, where I saw PLENTY of violence. The muslims were FAR from peaceful. And the bikers stole some rocket launchers from a weapon warehouse in Sweden and put one through the window of a rival biker HQ TWO BLOCKS FROM MY APARTMENT.
Europe in general has a higher victimization rate than America. You are more likely to be the victim of a violent crime there.
January 21, 2008, 03:20 PM
Hey Craig VA, if you want a taste of the Arctic Circle without having to go there, come on up to Ohio today-it's pretty frigid right now.
I liked your point regarding how different cultures and countries make gun regulation decisions differently. Thank God for America! Our wonderful country is the last bastion of real freedom left in this old world.
January 21, 2008, 07:20 PM
Mr mljdeckard, i shall to tell you something. I have been many times in USA. My farher was born Telluride Colorado. My sister lives in Florida. Her family has no guns. Thre are many Finns, no guns too.You have never been in Finland. Muslims here in Finland are truly spacefull. We have no law for terrorism. If there is, i have never heard. I know many bad things from USA, but it is your own bisness. Stop to bark my country. I will to live thousands time.........
I have many guns to carry, but no, absolutly no reasons do so. I am very happy for it.The circumstances are very differnt in your contry. You donīt understand that peoples can live no carry guns. If you donīt be afride, no need to carry guns. It is too hard to understand for you. Good never says you MUST to carry guns, or says He?
PS. I wrote those, because will to learn USA-writing. What are you thinkig abaot it? Is it better than early times.
January 21, 2008, 08:14 PM
No. It is illegal in my state to carry in a church unless you are the minister (and possibly someone with permission). I believe that may have been an attempt to placate a group of anti-gun ministers who lobbied against the passage of our CCW law. This only applies to actual churches, which I only attend when visiting my parents. When I go to events with my pagan wife, I carry unless the property owner has specifically forbidden weapons (or asked that I not carry in the case of more informal events) in which case I comply if I attend.
January 21, 2008, 09:49 PM
I carry wherever I can; in Alabama, that's practically anywhere. Church is no exception. If the other members (including our preacher) don't like it, they probably shouldn't have signed off on my CCW application. :p
January 21, 2008, 10:34 PM
I pastor a small congregation in Missouri. I carry always but nobody knows. I've been asked one time by someone if they could. I told them by all means if they do so legally. In Missouri you can only carry in church if you have permission. God saves men's souls if they'll repent and accept the gift of eternal life paid for thru His own son's blood. I preach His word (not mine, nobody would/should care what I think :)), so I'm prepared to defend God's people with the Sword (the Word of God) and my Kahr 9mm. Nothing unbiblical or wrong about it.
January 21, 2008, 10:48 PM
Being faithful means that you surrender to higher authority. If I didn't believe in that authority, I wouldn't be in church at all.
I also said that when I live in AZ, I will carry anyway.
And why does that higher authority not want you to carry in church in Utah, but is going to be ok with you carrying in Arizona? Does God's will change just a few miles to the south?
January 22, 2008, 10:44 AM
Churches are prime targets.
Do you have any stats back up this assertion?
Shootings at churches make headlines because they are so shocking, but my guess is that convenience stores, check-cashing businesses, restaurants, etc. are targeted more frequently to churches. I think it's easy to be misled by the most recent headlines.
January 22, 2008, 12:41 PM
Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition........
January 22, 2008, 12:58 PM
I've got a wife and son in the car with me when going to church. There are a lot of things that can and do happen on the roads every day. What if I'm changing a flat and the guy who pulls up isn't exactly "helpful"?
I carry in church because I'm not about to leave it in the car. Thieves know you'll be occupied for an hour or so and they can take thier time. Seen it happen once. Not one car in the lot was spared. The church had advertised a big get-together with area churches for socializing and music. They scored a lot of radios and other assorted junk that evening.
A fellow was standing on his roof to get out of the flood waters that had engulfed his town. A boat came by and he refused the ride saying "God will save me". Several hours later a helicopter hovered overhead, he waved it off with the same response. The water finally overcame him and he stood at the Pearly Gates. "I thought God would save me!" he said. "What more do you want," said Saint peter. "We sent a boat and helicopter."
Faith is preparing for a bad situation and trusting you'll make it through, not willfull disregard for reality.
January 22, 2008, 01:19 PM
I hardly think one would need a weapon in church. Here in PK it banned to take weapon to any religous place of worship, may it be a Mosque, Church or a Temple.
January 22, 2008, 02:30 PM
I hardly think one would need a weapon in church.
Maybe so, but the problem is you really don't know do you? Do you carry only when you 'think' you might need it, or do you carry whenever you possibly can in order to be prepared for the time you do need it, whether you could foresee it or not? I have a few friends who only carry when they think they might need it, but they have never been able to define the criteria they base their decision on, other than how they 'feel' about a particular event or area. There is no crystal ball.
Just to prove a point, I've been mapping on Google Maps the crime in my local area, just those events that are listed in the local papers and on their websites, and just crime related to burglaries, shootings, armed robberies, car jackings and home invasions. It is a real eye opener to see the amount of crime that is all around you, not just in the so called bad areas of town, but also in what used to be considered the good areas. Many of these are armed robberies. What would stop these folks from trying to make off with the offering money from a local church on Sunday morning, their respect for others???
Some folks think it is wrong or disrespectful to carry in church, based on the idea that God can protect them there. He certainly can, but He can do that everywhere. If that is truly one's belief, then there is no need for car insurance, life insurance, health insurance etc. I haven't had any takers when I ask them to cancel all those types of coverage though. But we are used to viewing those as necessities.
Carrying in church is not disrespectful or wrong. It is simply trying to be prepared to care for oneself and one's loved ones in what the Bible describes as a fallen world. Makes sense to me.
January 22, 2008, 02:50 PM
I carry in Synagogue.
In this crazy time there is no reason in the world to believe that a synagogue would not make a great target for trouble-makers. I know that others carry as well.
January 22, 2008, 03:39 PM
The original CCH permit laws in Kansas specifically forbade carry in churches, but as of may of 2007, a "clarification of language" was added ot the law which basically reverses that portion of the law and puts churches on the "carry unless posted as prohibited" list. I, along with several other men in the congregation have started a Church safety and security committee as have many other churches in the area. While it is legal to carry concealed in church with a legal CCH permit, I have the men on the security committee specifically authorized by the church elders to carry concealed in services and other events during the week (we provide a security overwatch of these random events). It adds a certain layer of protection and legitmacy according to our church lawyer.
I find that my Glock 27 works quite well in my Galco ankle glove holster for my situation at church with the constant up and downs. Some of the so called megachurches in our area actually have armed security teams (unpaid volunteers) that carry openly and also concealed carry team members scattered around the church for the various services. The open carry personnel serve to escort the offering plates and are up front of the sanctuary to serve as bodyguards to the pastors and staff during services. We're not that big and I think it's a little bit of overkill at that point, but that is their choice.
January 22, 2008, 05:17 PM
And why does that higher authority not want you to carry in church in Utah, but is going to be ok with you carrying in Arizona? Does God's will change just a few miles to the south?I think that this hinges on respect for the law as an extension of God's authority; read Romans 13. I think God is big on personal responsibility, and is quite happy to see His people prepared to defend themselves - provided that they do so in accordance with the law of the land.1 Thessalonians 4:11-12 (NIV)
Make it your ambition to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business and to work with your hands, just as we told you, so that your daily life may win the respect of outsiders and so that you will not be dependent on anybody.
January 22, 2008, 05:23 PM
That's a great verse, Deacon. Think I finally found a quote for my signature.
January 23, 2008, 01:25 AM
Because in AZ it's legal. In Utah, it's not.
January 23, 2008, 02:02 AM
May be you are right. I would just want leave my weapon in the car before I enter the place of worship- unless there is something fishy in the air.
January 23, 2008, 02:19 AM
God helps those who help themselves.
I carried even while cantoring. You never know who has what beef with who or what. Maybe someone was molested by a priest 30 years ago and now has decided that he can no longer live with himself, the priest, or the parishioners. Maybe someone is angry that the local First Baptist doesn't have to pay certain taxes and decides to take it out in blood. Or maybe somebody is genuinely unstable and wants to kill people and what better location than a packed liturgy.
The holier than thou crap won't get you into heaven if you let your fellow parishioners die because you felt too good to carry a gun to church.
We live in different times folks.
Be smart, carry in church if you can.
January 23, 2008, 04:03 AM
Before becoming a LEO I carried, and now I continue to carry. I will never stop.
I am a sheepdog, and always will be.
I am a member of another forum and we had a VERY VERY good discussion on this topic. Fantastic resources and info there too.
I truly understand your perspective, even though I don't share it, but what if the 'something fishy in the air' did not materialize until you had entered your place of worship? Are you willing to accept the potential consequences for yourself and your family? That is a personal choice that we all make.
I was working on a piece of equipment at church one morning before service began, and needed my pocket knife to pop open a little plastic cover on the device. As I closed it and put it back in my pocket, a friend that was helping commented "I would never carry a knife in church". To him it was disrespectful. To me it was a tool, and this is a small Case pocket knife with a 2.5" blade, not menacing at all. I would think no more of carrying a knife than a screwdriver, it is a tool for the job at hand. So is my SP101.
Perspective is everything.
BTW - I really appreciate the fact that this thread has stayed open. This is an interesting topic and very much relevant for our society today. The respectful conversation is truly THR.
January 23, 2008, 02:21 PM
People are funny...why would carrying in church be any different than carrying anywhere else? Disrespectful to whom...God? Like God needs to go to church. People are funny...and some are werid...and that's why I carry. Lots of Bad Guys go to church...Mafiaso types have probably attended more than me.
January 23, 2008, 02:37 PM
If I carry everywhere else... Why would I not while worshipping? After all it's my belief that self defense is a god given right. I doubt he has a problem with it, so what's the issue? Of course learning that the LDS church in Utah has banned CCW has seriously put a damper on my desire to move to the land of snow hills...
GOD BLESS ARIZONA!
January 23, 2008, 04:03 PM
In my country "mad" people take vodka and shoot the bullet in the own head. Therfor it is so many suisites in Finland. In the some other coyntry they take gun and go to church, market, restaurant, bar e.g. and start to shoot. This one reason no carry in church in my country. :rolleyes:
January 23, 2008, 04:27 PM
It's legal for me to and I do. Whackos shoot up churches, too.
This sounds about right.
January 23, 2008, 05:34 PM
Me and 3 buddies all carry concealed at our Church. With all of the instances lately of wackos killing perfectly good Christians we decided to approach our Bishop and tell him we wanted to start an informal security squad. He said okay just not to advertise it, which we wouldn't have anyway. Poor bastard who breaks into one of our meetings with evil on his mind will shortly meet his master.
January 23, 2008, 05:53 PM
The churches usually ban guns on their premises BUT the law says you can carry a concealed weapon in the churches with the proper concealed carry permit. So basically, the churches have been over ruled. It might look funny to all the "institutionalized" believers but it is practical. Think about it, we always talk about how crime would be higher if guns were banned. We also say that gun free zones are the most dangerous because that's gonna be where the criminals feel safest to commit their crimes. A church is a practically understood but not legally instigated "gun free zone" so you can carry in church but no one will expect it. Meaning, the church would be towards the top of my "Must Carry Zones" list.
January 23, 2008, 11:18 PM
The churches usually ban guns on their premises BUT the law says you can carry a concealed weapon in the churches with the proper concealed carry permit. So basically, the churches have been over ruled.
Depends on the state. Not every state law says that, in fact some specifically say the opposite.
January 24, 2008, 07:17 AM
Absolutely. Legal to do so.
January 24, 2008, 07:52 AM
Very interesting spectrum of views.
January 24, 2008, 09:18 AM
I've been carrying in church for several years. Most of the people there have never seen me unarmed. Concealed means concealed so no worries about what other people think or how they would react.
I hug many, many people each time I'm there. Every now and then a hand goes squarely on the 4:00 position of the belt right on top of my 1911 or Kahr but nobody has ever thought twice about it.
Churches have a number of security issues: (1) They collect large amounts of cash that are loosely (if at all) guarded. (2) Rough characters are often dragged in by relatives 'to get some churchin' (3) Estranged, vindictive spouses know they can find their x there every Sunday and sometimes show up to share choice words (4) Preacher visits prisons and some of these people show up after release, sometimes only to look for money (5) Drifters and lowlifes view churches as a general purpose charity [which they really are not] and some get angry when they are offered food instead of cash. (6) Pedophiles never prey upon children at church, right? Hey, my church has 3 registered sex offenders and I have no doubt that they'd be allowed to teach a children's class if they requested to do so.
My efforts to protect me and mine don't require an explanation nor an apology, but I do think it's worth noting that bad things sometimes happen at church.
January 24, 2008, 06:43 PM
January 24, 2008, 08:53 PM
Illegal in Louisiana. Not worth losing your right to own a gun or going to jail over. I find it silly, but I obey the laws.
January 25, 2008, 01:26 AM
Lance22: You have said it all....and so succinctly!
We need to get all the politicos to begin thinking like you and me...or, we can just move them all to Louisiana.
January 25, 2008, 09:58 AM
950BS, it beats throwing the good book at the bad guy.
January 25, 2008, 01:51 PM
I carry to church. It's legal. I don't find it disrespectful.
January 25, 2008, 02:23 PM
Concealed, would not be known unless there was a dire need, At that point I doubt anyone would consider stopping someone from harming the flock as disrespectful. Odds are none of us will ever need our CCW, I'm grateful for that, but I couldn't live with the outcome if the odds ran out & I was not prepared
January 26, 2008, 02:44 PM
I always carry in church, but my wife is the only one in the church who knows. Usually I carry in a pocket or in an ankle holster, because the butt of the gun tends to clunk against the hard wooden pew when carrying on the belt.
January 26, 2008, 09:18 PM
I can't believe that the Church of LDS doesn't allow ccw in Utah. They must have forgotten that Mr. John Moses Browning was one of their elders in the Mormon faith.
January 27, 2008, 02:18 PM
I heard it expressed this way once.
When Brigham Young was giving counsel about dealing with hostile Utes in the Utah territory, he advised; "Pray always, but keep your powder dry."
Many of us would just keep the powder dry.
January 30, 2008, 01:03 PM
Donīt keep powder too dry. It means big troubles for you and people near your gun when thu gun speaks.
January 30, 2008, 02:18 PM
I do snow plow for a few church's. In one of the contracts it says "no weapons allowed"
It's 3 in the morning, there is nobody around, it's dark and you are alone, church's are NOT in high visibility area's, they are big parking lots.
What do you think I do and I have my wife do (she plows also in a seperate vehicle)?
contract be dammed.
someone mentioned up above that (and I'm paraphrasing here) "they obey all the laws because the church said to".
I would ask, do you obey all laws, or do you obey all just laws?
I think there's an important difference. The law of the land was slavery not very long ago, would you have obeyed that? In Missouri the law said that it was legal to kill Mormon's (and that law wasnt' repealed til recently (last 20/30 years or so). I ask this LDS gentleman, would he have that all should obey all laws? Or only just ones?
Something to think about.
January 30, 2008, 08:43 PM
An incident happened at a church I used to attend a few years ago that helped me see the value of CCW at church, just as well as any other place.
It was a very evangelical, full-gospel kind of church. Many would say it is on its way to becomming a 'mega-church' with multiple locations and over 6,000 active members, most of them describing themselves as born-again Christians. It was also very youth-oriented, with modern decor, large video screens, and a live band at every service.
It so happens that a young lady, maybe in her mid 20's attended this chrurch, and became quite active in it. She attended the Sunday service, the Wednesday night believers' service, the Bible study club, and the young adults group at the downtown location.
A stranger wanders into the young adults group one night, and gives himself to Jesus after repenting of his sins. This young lady was unaware that his sins included wife beating, and took him under her wing. He began attending the various Bible studies and groups with her, and the two became romantically involved.
After a while, she became weary of living in sin with the man she met while discussing the Bible, and was especially alarmed by his controling nature. She attempted to change him through Bible study and prayer, but it didn't work. Eventually her friends began to notice something was wrong with the relationship, and advised her to back away from the relationship for a while.
After she told the guy she'd like a little space, and to discontinue the premarital sex, he became enraged. She told friends that his attitude scared her, and that he may be stalking her. She was correct, unfortunately. The guy she met at church followed her to work one morning, and shot her dead in her car.
There is no guarantee that a person professing to be a Christian, and attending church and Bible studies, doesn't have dangerous issues with rage! Many people in prison find religion, and unfortunately, some people in our churches may belong in prison. Don't be a sheep. Be a strong man of faith, peaceful in nature, but capable of defending his family and all that G-d has given him.
January 30, 2008, 09:06 PM
Churches have a number of security issues: (1) They collect large amounts of cash that are loosely (if at all) guarded.My last church had 2,000 members at each Sunday service, and many of them tithe. If the average donation was $20, that would be $40,000 during each of 3 services! That would certainly get a thief's notice. The thieves were already stealing the CDs, books, and devotional materials that traveling preachers would bring along with them. A volunteer had to be assigned to stand in the lobby during service, and guard the religious goods.
(2) Rough characters are often dragged in by relatives 'to get some churchin'Yep, we'd especially reach out to those having issues with drugs, sex, and bad relationships in order to help them get their lives straightened out.
(3) Estranged, vindictive spouses know they can find their x there every Sunday and sometimes show up to share choice words See my previous post, above.
(4) Preacher visits prisons and some of these people show up after release, sometimes only to look for moneyWe just began an official prison ministry when I stopped attending... I believe members were ministering to prisoners on their own prior to this. Who knows, maybe I worshipped next to a convicted rapist and didn't know it.
(5) Drifters and lowlifes view churches as a general purpose charity [which they really are not] and some get angry when they are offered food instead of cash. I haven't seen this at any church I've attended... but I had the misfortune of meeting someone who would beg money from pastors every Sunday, and move on to the next church when the pastor would cut off the financial aid to this person within a few weeks.
(6) Pedophiles never prey upon children at church, right? Hey, my church has 3 registered sex offenders and I have no doubt that they'd be allowed to teach a children's class if they requested to do so In many states, churches are exempt from criminal background checks, and the usual paperwork involved in running a daycare or childrens' classes. The church I used to attend had a very good eye toward security when it involved children. All childcare workers had to pass an FBI and state criminal background check before they were allowed into their volunteer positions. This wasn't required, but was done anyway. Other security measures involved security doors that you had to be buzzed into, and strict sign in and sign out of each child. The children weren't released to anyone except the person who signed them into the room.
Talk to your pastor, and suggest that all workers involved in the childrens' ministry undergo a background check. The cost is only $35, I believe, and well worth the piece of mind it provides.
January 30, 2008, 09:06 PM
Georgia's Firearms License states: "Except as provided . . . a person is guilty of a misdemeanor when he or she carries to or while at a public gathering any explosive compound, firearm, or knife designed for the purpose of offense or defense. For the purpose of this Code section, "public gathering" shall include, but shall not be limited to, athletic or sporting events, churches or church functions, political rallies or functions, publicaly owned or operated buildings, or establishments which alcoholic beverages are sold for consumption on the premises. Nothing in this Code section shall otherwise prohibit the carrying of a firearm in any other public place by a person licensed to or permitted to carry such firearms by this part. This code section shall not apply to competitors participating in organized sport shooting events. Law enforcement officers, peace officers retired from state or federal law enforcement agencies, judges, magistrates, solicitors-general, and district attorneys may carry pistols in publicly owned or operated buildings. It is an affirmative defense to a violation of this code section if a person notifies a law enforcement officer or other person employed to provide security for a public gathering of the presence of such items as soon as possible after learning of its presence and surrenders or secures such item as directed by the law enforcement officer or other person employed to provide security for a public gathering."
January 30, 2008, 09:44 PM
I have been known to carry in church way before it was legal in Missouri. It was at a major church function when two Presbyteries in the St Louis area were joining and there had to have been well over 5000 people in attendance. My father, who was a minister asked if I'd like to go and I said I would, though I hate big crowds like that. What he didn't know was that under my suit coat was a Model 19 S&W in a Bianchi shoulder holster. Why, because there had been several sniper type shootings just a few blocks down the street not long before.
I'm not so sure my dad might not have gotten a ccw, if we had been able to get them at the time. He went up to our church one night for something and heard somebody trying to get thru the door between the sanctuary and the office/upstairs classroom area. Since he hadn't turned on a light they didn't know he was there so he quietly left. After that time whenever he had to go over to the church at night he always had our German Shepherd with him. I think I remember him saying something about Fritzie chasing people out a couple of times.
February 1, 2008, 11:23 PM
I carry everywhere it is legal for me to do so. Crazy pple are everywhere.
Brett Byers AKA Slow
February 2, 2008, 09:44 PM
I pastor a small church in Southern Indiana (just off I-65)you are all invited to attend any Sunday @ 1030 and if your respective State has reciprocity with Indiana by all means bring your weapon and extra ammo and after I buy your lunch we'll go out and plink on the farm. PM for further directions and phone #. BTW I carry on Sunday too!
February 2, 2008, 10:01 PM
I wish you were closer, We're having a hard time finding a church/pastor we feel good about since we moved to AZ.
February 2, 2008, 11:00 PM
i prefer an ankle hostler, since the old ladies like to hug everyone.
However, not easy to keep concealed while kneeling for Communion.
February 2, 2008, 11:19 PM
My wife and I are both Presbyterian preachers in Ky. and we both carry concealed.She almost had to fire once if I had not gotten to her church before an irate transient who was trying to break down the door to her office succeeded.
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