He got into a gun fight with nothing


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Mikebnice
January 18, 2008, 12:18 AM
Young got into a fight them, trying to stop them. Mall security guard Jermine Copeland ran up to intervene -- in uniform, but not armed, and not wearing a protective vest :confused::confused:

calling 911 is about all I would have done being unarmed
and why wear a vest without a gun to shoot back.

http://www.11alive.com/news/article_news.aspx?storyid=109729

A security guard was shot outside the Discount Mall on Hedland Drive in southwest Atlanta on Thursday afternoon.

Mall security cameras captured a fuzzy distant look at part of what happened.

A silver Toyota Camry pulled up to a UPS truck near the entrance. UPS driver Benjamin Young said three men then got out of the car and began grabbing boxes from out of the UPS truck.

Young got into a fight them, trying to stop them. Mall security guard Jermine Copeland ran up to intervene -- in uniform, but not armed, and not wearing a protective vest.

"He saw what was going on and he ran over to the truck and the car," said mall manager Casey Nunn. "They shot him four times."

In fact, once Copeland was in surgery at Grady Memorial Hospital in downtown Atlanta, doctors discovered he had been shot six times.

Police said Copeland was shot at least once in the chest. The tape showed the men jumping back into the car and pulling off.

"He was alert, he was conscious the whole time," said Nunn. "He actually stood up on his own power and sat on the gurney. That's one tough guy."

Copeland, 28, has worked for the company as a security guard for about nine months. The mall management has been trying to battle crime.

"This area, we've been doing everything we can," said Nunn. "This shows that there needs to be an increased police presence in the area."

The guard, "J.C.," as everyone at the mall knows him, was out of surgery late Thursday afternoon, and Nunn said J.C. was resting in his hospital room, his family by his side.

A $2,000 reward has been posted in the case. Anyone who knows anything about the case is asked to call CrimeStoppers at 404-577-8477.

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HungSquirrel
January 18, 2008, 12:40 AM
Time to get a new job. No UPS truck is worth getting shot over, especially in a so-called Gun Free Zone...

joab
January 18, 2008, 12:43 AM
why wear a vest without a gun to shoot back.
To keep from getting six new holes when someone decides to shoot the unarmed security guard?

The guard saw a fight and tried to do his job with the tools provided to him for that task

If he witnessed a fight going on without any shots being fired or guns being brandished he had every reason to believe that he could successfully do the job he was hired to do

mekender
January 18, 2008, 12:56 AM
The mall management has been trying to battle crime.

with unarmed guards, it sounds like the mall is more concerned about fighting a bad image and liability problems... hopefully the guard will sue the company for not allowing him to carry

joab
January 18, 2008, 02:09 AM
He took the job of his own free will most probably with the expressed knowledge that he would not be armed.
If this wasn't revealed to him in the interview it certainly would have dawned on him at the time he was handed his equipment sans firearm
He could have quit at that point.

So what grounds would he have for a lawsuit?

All of the malls I have worked at, and they were many, employed unarmed guards
Some had of duty cops also, but the majority of the security squad is unarmed

sniper5
January 18, 2008, 01:03 PM
:what:But, this must be a hoax!!! It was a GUN FREE zone. It was illegal to have a gun. So there could not possibly have been one there. Ask anyone who knows, like a school administrator, or someone from the Brady campaign, or Hillary, or Obama, or. . .

:confused:

KABA
January 18, 2008, 02:14 PM
This is curious. They shot the unarmed security guard but didn't shoot the UPS driver they were fighting with. I'd be interested in hearing the UPS driver's take on this.

DoubleTapDrew
January 18, 2008, 03:02 PM
Where is Gecko45's tactical response team when you really need them???
Just kidding. That's a sad situation and I'm glad he's ok. I don't understand the point of unarmed security other than trying to dissuade teeny boppers from stealing CDs from the music store.

MakAttak
January 18, 2008, 03:38 PM
I don't understand the point of unarmed security other than trying to dissuade teeny boppers from stealing CDs from the music store.

DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING!!!!!!


They're not there for security, they are there for shoplifting.

Rustynuts
January 18, 2008, 07:26 PM
I used to have one of those all show security jobs at a big mall, but at least we had vests (until the cheap bastard contract firm took over so I quit). The was in Illinois though, where NO ONE has concealed weapons, right?

siglite
January 18, 2008, 07:38 PM
"This area, we've been doing everything we can," said Nunn. "This shows that there needs to be an increased police presence in the area."

Why? Were there not enough on hand to take the report after it happened?

An armed security guard, and a UPS man with a CCW would've likely made that a very different situation.

boatbod
January 18, 2008, 07:59 PM
Shot six times and survived? :what: Must have been itty bitty .22's

CZ.22
January 18, 2008, 11:26 PM
Respect goes out to the guard. You gotta be brave, maybe a little stupid or crazy, but brave to do that and survive.

GRB
January 18, 2008, 11:40 PM
Even had he not been employed as a security guard, maybe he still would have sought to help the UPS driver; I would hope someone would have done so - armed or unarmed. I tend to think I would have stepped up to the plate, that based on past personal experience. One of the problems with our society today is that we want to appear brave, we want to appear sensible, we want to appear macho, we want to have big mouths and bravado - but when it comes right down to someone else doing something - all of a sudden he is a jerk or his actions are questionable to some of us. That is a sad commentary, but not on the security guard, nor on the UPS driver.

If this story is really as told, then all I can do is laude the bravery of the security guard, and of the UPS driver. It is about time that people fight back, and that other people help them when in such dire straits. This is not stupidity, this is not bravado, this is not machismo, this is not talking about what we armed citizens want to think we would do when the SHTF, this was real life; and in this scenario a security guard did his job and beyond to help protect another human being from attack by 3 thugs. Maybe he figured it was better to risk something rather than to have to live with the guilt of having done nothing except maybe watch the UPS driver get killed; maybe he is just the kind of a man who lives by his principles and he decided to help an innocent in need, but whatever the case it is apparent as reported he was a good man doing a very brave thing.

This guy is in my thoughts and hopes for a swift recovery. Maybe his case will do something to get at least licensure for armed guards. That would be a start in such a gun free zone.

All the best,
Glenn B

gunsmith
January 18, 2008, 11:41 PM
and get a workers comp attny!

I've worked security, armed and unarmed....
even armed I wouldn't have tried to stop this robbery.
I would have made myself visible from a safe distance
and called the police, if armed I would still stay a distance and un holster because they have overwhelming force and committing a violent felony
I bet the guy had zero training or mindset or even thought about how to stay alive in various situations.(SIC)

ClickClickD'oh
January 18, 2008, 11:44 PM
I have no respect for the outfits that knowingly stick unarmed guys in high crime posts.. but I understand them. Unarmed guards are cheaper to pay, and require less training expense than armed guys do. Companies can have a revolving door with unarmed guards, which is about right for the turn over rates at most security outfits. It's cheaper and easier for them. Not to mention, clients just don't like paying the extra expense for armed guards when they can get some unarmed sap at a cut rate.

Do yourself a favor if you work one of the unarmed outfits or posts.. get a vest and wear it. The BGs will shoot you just as quick, gun or no gun.

Autolycus
January 19, 2008, 12:35 AM
Originally posted by Sniper5: But, this must be a hoax!!! It was a GUN FREE zone. It was illegal to have a gun. So there could not possibly have been one there. Ask anyone who knows, like a school administrator, or someone from the Brady campaign, or Hillary, or Obama, or. . . Guiliani, or McCain, or Romney, or Bush.

larry_minn
January 19, 2008, 02:38 AM
I also worked unarmed security. I worked at a private College as well as a State Univ. Then as I needed $$ a private company. Unarmed at a rollerskating rink, pizza,arcade type place, Hardies, Town newspaper,etc.
Most of the jobs after a few nights I could have "phoned in" They were out of control because the staff there didn't know how to handle people. (I.E> Hardies they had HS kids buying ONE drink and getting free refils all night for table. I got there early and took the manager on duty (female) into men's room. I then lifted ceiling pannels and took out the JD,wiskey,etc. Poured it all down drain (and left bottles on counter)
An half hr later I was reading paper after tossing a few out and never did a dang thing there again. All I had to do is drop my paper and clear my throat and they would quiet down and get moving to leaving. Of course two weeks later they canceled the contract. Did same thing at another Hardies, and the rollerskating place. Worked myself out of a job. The arcade place took one night.
If I had been working that mall (at that time in my life) I would have run in with both feet. Odds are they shot at him because his (uniform) kinda/sorta looked like a Police one. (most do) :( I actually did NOT like armed security. Because they required it be open carried. (they often got armed for unarmed price but didn't know it) :)
Hope this guy recovers and those that shot him spend decades in jail. (right) :(

JKimball
January 19, 2008, 04:13 AM
+1 What Glenn said.

Maybe it wasn't the best tactical decision to jump into the fight, but I have a lot of respect for Copeland taking the action he did.

B yond
January 19, 2008, 11:26 AM
Why didn't the guard have a level 3 trauma plate duct taped to his torso? I thought that was SOP for mall mounties. :confused:

ilbob
January 19, 2008, 11:48 AM
I never much liked mall security work. Their insurance companies typically didn't allow armed security.

I did work the Deerfield, IL mall now and then. Not much trouble there. Had a radio with direct connect to Deerfield PD dispatch. Never had to use it. This was before cell phones. Most of their radio calls after 10 pm were to alert the patrol guys not to ticket someone who was having a party so would have late guests (no on street overnight parking there) and license plate checks. They must have done a couple hundred a night. never heard anything but no wants or warrants.

ilbob
January 19, 2008, 11:53 AM
I wonder if UPS instructs their drivers not to resist?

.cheese.
January 19, 2008, 11:57 AM
I've been complaining about guards being unarmed for some time now. I've posted at least 2 threads on the subject since I joined THR almost a year ago.

Each time a bunch of people argue the point basically tyrying to tell me that unarmed guards aren't helpless..... and sure.... maybe not.

But I'll bet it would have helped Copeland if he had been armed. Why is it worth not arming him?

Working Man
January 19, 2008, 12:16 PM
Why is it worth not arming him?

Its all about money.

Armed Guard = Insurance, training, and higher pay.

18 year old with a Diploma/GED = Unarmed guard
21 year old with training = Armed Guard

Unarmed is cheaper.

Ultrachimp
January 19, 2008, 12:38 PM
Quote:
why wear a vest without a gun to shoot back.
To keep from getting six new holes when someone decides to shoot the unarmed security guard?

The guard saw a fight and tried to do his job with the tools provided to him for that task

If he witnessed a fight going on without any shots being fired or guns being brandished he had every reason to believe that he could successfully do the job he was hired to do

Quoted for truth.

ilbob
January 19, 2008, 01:01 PM
18 year old with a Diploma/GED = Unarmed guard
21 year old with training = Armed Guard

I would bet typical armed guards are not any better educated than unarmed guards.

How much training do you think a typical armed guard actually needs?

Armed guards are not much more than armed citizens, and don't require much more training than that. The typical 20-40 hours states require of armed guards is probably adequate in most cases. The thing is not to forget they are not cops and have no obligation whatsoever to enforce laws (and probably should not try to enforce laws). They are there to protect the employer's property and the lives of people on the property. Thats it.

I don't think guards should carry any tools they don't know how to use. I would bet 99% of guards who carry handcuffs do not have much more than a vague clue on how to safely handcuff someone who is resisting. I took a class on it way back when, and trust me on this one, it is a whole lot harder than you think. A LOT. And if you are not careful, handcuffs can become a very dangerous weapon against you.

The guy that taught the handcuff class looked at all the cuffs we brought. Some of us had brands he approved of (mostly Peerless and S&W) and others he said were junk. One guy whose cuffs he said were junk challenegd him on it. He snapped the links holding the bracelets together in about 3 seconds. One guy had some cuffs made out of aluminum or some other soft metal that actually bent.

I think if you carry a stick or pepper spray it is a real good idea to get some actual training on using it. A stick is something pretty useful, and you can learn to be fairly effective in a half days training. I never carried pepper spray, sometimes I had a small canister of tear gas in a pocket.

Green Lantern
January 19, 2008, 01:12 PM
The mall management has been trying to battle crime.

with unarmed guards, it sounds like the mall is more concerned about fighting a bad image and liability problems...

BINGO. "Battle crime," my left foot.

If the guard were employed by my local mall....AND he'd managed to chase of the crooks without get hurt....

He'd likely be FIRED for violating company policy. Per the manager at the mall, their policy for their equally-unarmed guards is to "take details to give the police." That's about when I told her that we wouldn't be seeing each other again, and not to look for any of my loved ones in there again either.

Sounds like these blissninny managers have been watching too much "Highlander," taking their cue from the Watcher organization when it comes to customer safety: "Observe and record, but NEVER interfere!"

Anyone who thinks "mall security" is there to protect THEM, had better assume otherwise until they know for SURE.

My hat goes off to Mr. Copeland for trying to do the right thing, despite being hobbled by his idiot employers.

YES, nothing on a UPS truck is worth fighting for. But how about the DRIVER??? Sounds to me like Copeland didn't get involved until the driver put up a fight, thus putting his LIFE in danger. That's about where I'd have to step over my own "non-interference" line and get involved.

Working Man
January 19, 2008, 02:12 PM
18 year old with a Diploma/GED = Unarmed guard
21 year old with training = Armed Guard

I would bet typical armed guards are not any better educated than unarmed guards.

How much training do you think a typical armed guard actually needs?

I'm not referring to academics here. I just listed the minimum required for each.
As things are added on it affects the overhead of employing that individual.
To have an armed guard some training is required, as well as special/additional
insurance, and that position would typically pay more. Those all add to the cost
of Armed vs. Unarmed.

ilbob
January 19, 2008, 04:24 PM
I'm not referring to academics here. I just listed the minimum required for each. As things are added on it affects the overhead of employing that individual. To have an armed guard some training is required, as well as special/additional insurance, and that position would typically pay more. Those all add to the cost of Armed vs. Unarmed.

What makes you think armed guards are paid a whole lot more than unarmed guards?

What makes you think the guard companies are the ones paying for all this training you think armed guards are getting? A lot of guard companies hire mostly people who already have the required training.

And really, the liability insurance cost for armed versus unarmed guards for the guard company is not much difference. Armed guards just don't shoot people without good reason in any numbers.

Green Lantern
January 19, 2008, 04:40 PM
And really, the liability insurance cost for armed versus unarmed guards for the guard company is not much difference. Armed guards just don't shoot people without good reason in any numbers

And CCW holders don't shoot people without good reason EITHER, but "liability" is one of the main reason I hear for why employers and businesses prohibit CCW....

I would hardly be shocked to learn that the liability thing is naught but a scare tactic used by the antis (IE, "blood in the streets") to scare people into posting "rob me" signs....

Revolver Ocelot
January 19, 2008, 04:50 PM
I was a security gaurd at one point in time and when I was being trained I had to take the same handcuff and firearms training that the local leo did, the company that I worked for required that all gaurds be properly trained on any and all equipment they were expected to use, though I thought this was required by the state I could be mistaken.

ilbob
January 19, 2008, 05:25 PM
I was a security gaurd at one point in time and when I was being trained I had to take the same handcuff and firearms training that the local leo did, the company that I worked for required that all gaurds be properly trained on any and all equipment they were expected to use, though I thought this was required by the state I could be mistaken.

When I did my training, it was 30 hours, about 10 hours was firearms. I was told at the time that the Chicago PD academy at the time did 20 hours of firearms instruction (1979).

Of course they shot real bullets. We shot wax bullets powered by a primer at a rug hanging from a ceiling in a closet in downtown Chicago.

I worked with a retired CPD officer at the time. he said when he joined, the firearms training was 50 rounds of 38 special round nose single action. no pass/fail. Just shoot it up, and move on. He also said very few CPD officers bothered to do their annual re-qualification. I don't recall if they got paid for it and considered it a paid day off, or didn't get paid for it and figured they were not going to waste their own time on it.

He had a lot of good cop stories to tell. At that time, O'Hare airport was where they put many of the cops who were on limited duty. Some had casts and/or slings from broken bones, others were just not physically up to riding around in a car for a whole shift. He was at O'Hare for a couple years before retirement, which I gather was also common. After he told me that, the next time I was at O'Hare I looked closer at the cops, and sure enough he was right. Guys with knee braces seemed common. One guy I saw could barely walk.

joab
January 19, 2008, 06:54 PM
What makes you think armed guards are paid a whole lot more than unarmed guards?What the individual guard makes and who pays for their training is not nearly as important as what the company can charge per day for an armed officer as opposed to an unarmed officer

Freightman
January 19, 2008, 07:20 PM
I drove a freight delivery truck for 30 years, we were told to leave the truck and call the police if anyone was stealing stuff. They told us we were not law enforcement and the truck was paid for. In fact we could be disciplined if we did intervene.

ilbob
January 19, 2008, 07:22 PM
What the individual guard makes and who pays for their training is not nearly as important as what the company can charge per day for an armed officer as opposed to an unarmed officer
I would bet there is not all that much difference. There wasn't when I worked security. People are still cheap. Even the ones that want armed guards.

joab
January 19, 2008, 10:10 PM
I have no idea what the actual cost is but my guess is at least 50% more for armed

Mikebnice
January 19, 2008, 11:18 PM
http://drhelen.blogspot.com/2006/11/no-gun-no-chance.html

gunsmith
January 20, 2008, 02:19 AM
Armed paid better, at least 2 to 5 $ an hour better, plus you can deduct training, range time, ammo etc at tax time.
If you're already a gunnie thats a very good thing.

Back to the topic, the security guard made a tragic mistake.

No cop would run into a situation like that because their training and policy wouldn't allow it.

One against 3 is terrible odds, even if they are not armed.

I would say that even in CA you wouldn't be prosecuted for shooting the 3 bad guys if they were un armed because it is reasonable to assume 3 guys beating on one could lead to serious bodily injury.

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