Residents Terrified Over Idea Of Deadly Weapon On Streets


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EAdams
January 19, 2008, 01:00 AM
http://wcbstv.com/seenon/submachine.gun.mp5.2.633364.html

SHOCK: Wayne, N.J. Police Lose MP5 Submachine Gun
The Wayne Police Department had three MP5 submachine guns. That is until last week, when one of them went missing.
"I'm scared to death, because they're protecting our community and so they should have control over that a little better," said Wayne resident Gina Okun.
...
"The obvious concern is what could happen if such a dangerous weapon -- which is not available for sale to the public -- were to end up in the wrong hands."
...
"I hope they find it, before someone else do," said Wayne resident Fuquan Muslim.
...
"It's probably in the police station," resident Joey Lamartino said. "This is a safe town."
"The fear is what happens if it's not?"

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Winchester 73
January 19, 2008, 01:06 AM
The number of sheep seems to be multiplying more rapidly.
Wonder how she'd do in London or Berlin during the 1941 Blitzes?
These people make me ill.

Kind of Blued
January 19, 2008, 01:12 AM
Oops.

cobrian45
January 19, 2008, 01:22 AM
Hmmm, what's this in the garbage? Is that an MP... couldn't be. Vaccuum pack and bury time. It'll blow over in 10 or so years. Then, it's play time. :D

Autolycus
January 19, 2008, 01:32 AM
So the police department lost their machine gun? How can this be? They are professionals.

Logan5
January 19, 2008, 02:02 AM
See the difference between

Residents Terrified Over Idea Of Deadly Weapon On Streets

and

"I'm scared to death, because they're protecting our community and so they should have control over that a little better," said Wayne resident Gina Okun.

Clearly, the residents ought to be worried that the PD might be incompetent. I mean, "Whoops!" dosen't cover that kind of thing, right?

It's sensible to be worried that your police department seems not to care very carefully for very expensive equipment. In many jurisdictions, taxpayers scream and cry and Sherriffs are sacked when they try to buy DoD surplus M14's... But the headline of the article tries to make it sound like everyone knows that the MP-5 is a sentient doomsday robot with a savage thirst for human blood.
It's much less of a concern that some random lucky person might stumble across an SMG... the problem here is that that piece of equipment probably cost as much as a patrol car, (even though it's a 42 year old design that's license built in Mexico, Turkey, Greece, the Sudan, etc...) and apparently no one felt any need to take very good care of the thing?

EAdams
January 19, 2008, 02:05 AM
Maybe the PETA or ALF equivalent for firearms 'liberated' it and plan on setting it free in the wilds of a more gun friendly state. Seriously though..

Is it common for a police department in a city with total population of ~50,000 to have 3 automatic MP5s for SWAT use? Are they concerned that New Jersey's strict gun laws are not working?

Hope that someone on the THR lives in the area and will send a letter to the editor expressing their opinion of printing stories about events that happened a week ago in a tone that evokes as much panic and fear as possible short of ending with "The person who stole it IS IN YOUR BACKYARD RIGHT NOW." Had the reporter interviewed city council members, etc and framed the story in an objective manner local citizens might actually react with rational thought and pressure the local government to do a better job with oversight of city owned automatic weaponry...instead of reading the story and then out of terror probably voting for people to place more restrictive gun laws on the public.

pete f
January 19, 2008, 02:16 AM
its under a blanket in one of the cops attics.


Actual over the counter price for that gun was probably in the range of 650 to a thousand bucks. Why? because that was what HK was charging LEO depts a few years back, the $25,000 Dollar (as much as a squad car) comment refers to civilian legal, pre 86 SMG's on the open civilian market, today that gun costs about 1150, with sights and 10 mags.

An MP5 is maybe one of the best CQB guns made, when loaded with good JHP ammo, they are really quite effective. far better than a m4 at close range.

chris in va
January 19, 2008, 02:48 AM
which is not available for sale to the public

Sure it is. At least the older versions.

Standing Wolf
January 19, 2008, 04:36 AM
The Wayne Police Department had three MP5 submachine guns.

I think I've just spotted the problem. Why should the police have more rights than the commoners?

Aguila Blanca
January 19, 2008, 01:38 PM
Clearly, the residents ought to be worried that the PD might be incompetent. I mean, "Whoops!" dosen't cover that kind of thing, right?
Well, as a former President famously said, "It depends."

"Whoops" doesn't cover it at all if a citizen has a privately-owned firearm go missing. Many states are now jumping on the bandwagon and passing laws requiring notification of the police within 'X' hours, which often doesn't leave enough time to even adequately look around the workshop, gun safe, and car trunk to see if you mislaid it. And that's just for a normal firearm.

But a police full-auto assault weapon? Sure, "Whoops!" covers it quite adequately, because -- after all -- they're the police. Laws don't apply to police.

Mannlicher
January 19, 2008, 06:58 PM
Oh! The Humanity...................... :what:

Old Guy
January 20, 2008, 06:58 AM
You do know this is a very clumsy 9mm pistol do you not!

209
January 20, 2008, 08:34 AM
***** happens. I remember weapons being lost when I was in the service. Granted some of those losses were what we called "combat losses", but I also know of losses when we were definitely not in a combat situation. The cops lost a gun. Big deal.

Having said that, I wouldn't want to be the officer charged with accountability of that gun. There's likely go to be a major witch hunt going on there and some poor sap is going to take a major hit. Especially because it's NJ.

Hokkmike
January 20, 2008, 09:07 AM
Losing something like this should be a serious concern, nothing sheeple about it.

gyp_c2
January 20, 2008, 09:13 AM
...I can see it now...Can I please come home wit you? My mommy is losted...http://emoticons4u.com/smoking/rauch06.gif

v35
January 20, 2008, 09:50 AM
NJ is a classic study in a civilization that has willingly and peacefully given up its rights. One must actually live there to appreciate how true that statement is. Corruption at all levels - including local police and all levels of government - is not only tolerated to a great degree, but dependence upon all levels of government is also common. In other words, NJers expect protection from the very government they know is corrupt. Students of history can find any number of failed civilizations that followed the same course. The outcome is not pretty.

I don't mean this to slam New Jerseyans. I was born and raised there, and watched the situation slide toward the collectivist mentality it has become. I have first hand knowledge of the corruption that is destroying that state, and can provide several anecdotes that would shock you. Unless you live in NJ of course.

NJ's government is above the law, and its subjects has given it their blessings.

Why should the police have more rights than the commoners?

Standing Wolf, if you were to ask this question of most New Jerseyans their answer would amaze you. Of course police should have more rights - they're the police! :barf:

These people make me ill.

The very reason I escaped.

stevek
January 20, 2008, 09:57 AM
Yeah, we're planning our escape also. NJ just passed a law that would charge an individual if they didn't report a missing gun within 36 hours. I guess the Wayne PD reported the missing gun to themselves :o

Lucky
January 20, 2008, 10:07 AM
Pete F you have to admit people shot with them at Enteb and the Iran Embassy didn't just fall down and lie still like in the movies. Something about empting magazines, hitting, and targets remaining combative, I remember. No idea what bullets.

axeman_g
January 20, 2008, 10:18 AM
v35....
I agree with almost all you had to say. Being a NJ resident I am sometimes amazed at what people say or repeat about gun ownership and guns in general. There are many reasons why, one of the main ones is the lack of ancestral knowledge... The gun bashing here has been going on so long, the disinformation so profuse that generations of people actually think what they hear is gospel.

I would love to hear about your corruption anecdotes...

The Lone Haranguer
January 20, 2008, 10:20 AM
"I'm scared to death, because they're protecting our community and so they should have control over that a little better," said Wayne resident Gina Okun.

"I hope they find it, before someone else do," said Wayne resident Fuquan Muslim.

Grammar aside;), these are really not unreasonable concerns. You lose your car keys or wallet; you darned well do not lose guns. :mad: I would agree that the implication that the entire community is "terrified" is over the top.

ConstitutionCowboy
January 20, 2008, 10:39 AM
Hmm, this coincides nicely with the guy toting a shotgun in the Capitol . Timely, isn't it. Much better thought out, though. No apparent "culprit" to blame, but that's good for their cause. It's much more frightening when it could be a terrorist, or a lunatic.

Seems strange when occasionally you find out that an agency like the FBI looses tens or hundreds of guns from time to time, yet there is no "panic". Why now with this one gun?

I think the truth of the matter lies somewhere in the fact that logic says arms in the hands of the people is the best place for arms to be kept, and all that is left to the left is emotion. Contrived emotion at that!

Woody

"Give a man a policeman and (maybe) protect him for a day; give him a gun and protect him for life." Elzorro

gbran
January 20, 2008, 11:43 AM
Ain't this a hoot? For years, the media has called everything under the sun and assault weapon, now there's a real one on the street and everybody is terrified. Go figure.

GTSteve03
January 20, 2008, 11:49 AM
"Whoops" doesn't cover it at all if a citizen has a privately-owned firearm go missing. Many states are now jumping on the bandwagon and passing laws requiring notification of the police within 'X' hours, which often doesn't leave enough time to even adequately look around the workshop, gun safe, and car trunk to see if you mislaid it. And that's just for a normal firearm.
Guns are kind of like kids. You don't accidentally misplace your children.

They require a little more responsibility to know their whereabouts than say, your sunglasses.

sm
January 20, 2008, 12:04 PM
I think I've just spotted the problem. Why should the police have more rights than the commoners?

All animals are created equal, just some are more equal than others. - Animal Farm

Gunnerpalace
January 20, 2008, 01:49 PM
First a note to all people, LEO's had FA's even BEFORE the 34' act.

Did the guns go missing, yes, my theory is this: a few LEO's that like to collect managed to convince the right people to let them "go missing" and here we are.

The Cavalry
January 20, 2008, 02:13 PM
I salute V35's stunningly accurate description of New Jersey culture.

Having moved to the state a few years ago on temporary assignment, I continue to be taken aback by how completely subservient most Jerseyans are to their government...while being belligerent to their fellow citizens.

My time's up this year, and I'm positioned to pack up this Spring. Can't wait to burn my FID card at the PA state line.

Since we bought our home here, our property taxes have jumped by 65% and are approaching $10,000 per year. A significant portion of this money is confiscated by the state government and redistributed to "poor" cities, where school superintendents blow it on things like jukeboxes for their offices and exorbitant bonuses for themselves and their staff. The townspeople, of course, find nothing wrong with that behavior...it's not their money anyway...and decline to force resignation when the corruption is made public.

Ugh. I feel nauseated just typing this. I'm outta here.

V35 wrote:
NJ is a classic study in a civilization that has willingly and peacefully given up its rights. One must actually live there to appreciate how true that statement is. Corruption at all levels - including local police and all levels of government - is not only tolerated to a great degree, but dependence upon all levels of government is also common. In other words, NJers expect protection from the very government they know is corrupt.

Zoogster
January 20, 2008, 02:31 PM
First a note to all people, LEO's had FA's even BEFORE the 34' act.
Yes, and the average American could order a Thompson Submachinegun, the MP5 of the time from a Sears catalog and have it delivered anywhere with no documentation, background check etc.
So if police lost one then it would not be a very big deal unless a child found it. It would be about as serious as misplacing a container of dangerous cleaning chemicals, could pose a danger to a child, but otherwise not a huge concern.
Police could have them, and all citizens could have them. There was not even any prohibitions to felons and previous criminals from having them once they rejoined society until 1968.
So no matter who found it, it really was no big deal unless it was a child.

It is a huge deal to people now because of all the gun control. We have acceptable classes of people for some things, and less than equal for others. When the sheep might have something only allowed the shepherd people panic.

Prior to the NFA act some police did use firearms like the thompson. Most did not.

After the '34 act most LEO did not have full auto weapons or deploy them.
LEO were considered little different from anyone else and subject to most of the same laws until much later.
Even when SWAT teams first started in the LAPD in the late 60's (after seeing the SAS perform in the wonderful UK.)
Many of those weapons had the same appearance as full auto and the public assumed they were. They were in fact semi auto firearms. However after the public assumed for so long they were full auto, and it become generaly acceptable that they were, they actualy did switch over to select fire weapons. They of course used a current incident as in all situations to add that additional justification. The incident with the Symbionese Liberation Army, however similar incidents had happened previously, and police had faced criminals armed with such weapons for decades, so it was simply a convenient excuse.

Here is an section from wiki, which I know to be correct from other sources long before wiki existed:
The normal complement of weapons was a sniper rifle (apparently a .243-caliber bolt-action, judging from the ordnance expended by officers at the shootout), two .223-caliber semi-automatic rifles, and two shotguns. SWAT officers also carried their service revolvers in shoulder holsters. The normal gear issued them included a first aid kit, gloves, and a gas mask. In fact it was a change just to have police armed with semi-automatic rifles, at a time when officers were usually issued six-shot revolvers and shotguns.
As you can see most police did not have full auto weapons after the NFA act, and in fact it was frowned on when they had more than revolvers and shotguns. LAPD was on the "cutting edge" in changing that trend and it did not even equip officers with rifles until the late 60's. No full auto/select fire until the mid 70's.

In the interim various laws in various localities and states began to appear that excluded LEO. Prior they were generaly considered equal to everyone else. As more and more new restrictive laws appeared they excluded law enforcement.
The result is what you see now.

Prior to the political climate of the 70s the average American would have been appalled that the police were militarizing. The federal military was specificly prohibited from being used against the citizens since the Posse Comitatus Act, and turning the police into paramilitary branches would just be a way to bypass that. However the disdain by many for the radicals of the time caused the citizens to allow severely restrictive arms laws, where they could be carried, how they could be transported while at the same time giving more special privelidges to LEO than ever before.
Most current gun control stems from then. Prior to that it was legal to walk down the street many places with a longarm, take them into federal buildings, possess them while picketing, carry all firearms openly most places (and even concealed in many) etc.

LightningJoe
January 20, 2008, 03:21 PM
Put every police officer who has access to the armory under surveillance and then start a rumor they're going to be searching everybody's house. Follow the guilty party at 3:00 am and see what he drops in a dumpster. It'll be the SMG.

fearless leader
January 20, 2008, 03:59 PM
It may amaze you to know how many times I forgot where I left one of my toys.

Then again, I haven't got that many children either.

TAB
January 20, 2008, 04:20 PM
How do you misplace a weapon... you don't. Some one stole it. At the very least it was checked out with out/incorrectly filling out all the paper work... which would be a crimal offence in both the civilan and miltary worlds.

Titan6
January 20, 2008, 04:28 PM
Someone misplaced it. I do this all the time with my keys.

Strange that people were not concerned when the police had it. Why are they not concerned that the police still have several more to lose? I say take them away from the police if they can't take care of the public property they have been entrusted with. Might sound strange but it has worked other places where the police failed to keep accountability of their weapons.

RedLion
January 20, 2008, 04:32 PM
See!! weapons like that are SO dangerous police departments and the military shouldn't even have them, that will solve the problem... :banghead:

Titan6
January 20, 2008, 04:39 PM
Oh, I am not saying that police should not have them... Just the police that lost it. This is a breach of the public trust by losing valuable property that belongs to the people.

orionengnr
January 20, 2008, 05:07 PM
Yes, and the average American could order a Thompson Submachinegun, the MP5 of the time from a Sears catalog and have it delivered anywhere with no documentation, background check etc.
So if police lost one then it would not be a very big deal unless a child found it.

You are overlooking one key element. Back then parents parented, and children were raised to have common sense and an understanding of consequences.

If I found a gun, even as a very young child, I'd have quickly found one of my parents or another adult...and this was long before Eddie the Eagle existed.

Lonestar49
January 20, 2008, 05:25 PM
Quote: You are overlooking one key element. Back then parents parented, and children were raised to have common sense and an understanding of consequences.
----------
...

IN A NUTSHELL


Ls

thexrayboy
January 20, 2008, 09:09 PM
An MP5 is maybe one of the best CQB guns made, when loaded with good JHP ammo, they are really quite effective. far better than a m4 at close range.


Until you throw body armor into the equation. After that an AR type has huge advantages.

v35
January 21, 2008, 01:57 AM
v35....
I would love to hear about your corruption anecdotes...
PM sent. Enjoy.

verb0s
January 21, 2008, 03:36 AM
Misplaced... Or stolen?
They have three MP5s. Its not like a couple dozen glocks and shottys to track. How can they lose ONE of THREE guns? Its unlikely that its was accidentally misplaced. Stolen sounds more reasonable. Except if it was stolen, it sound as if the PD isn't properly storing or locking their guns. So it was "misplaced".

Zedicus
January 21, 2008, 03:41 AM
So the police department lost their machine gun? How can this be? They are professionals.

hehe, reminds me of this.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=mhIJOVD8hwY

Dravur
January 21, 2008, 10:13 AM
You do know this is a very clumsy 9mm pistol do you not!

Trust me, its not clumsy, and none of my pistols can fire 30 rounds on full auto.

and it handles quite well, thank you.

Gunnerpalace
January 21, 2008, 11:22 AM
Got your point Zoogster, the up armoring of LEO's has exploded in the last few years. That and more cops are becoming gunnies, so they get to request nice things, while police have always had access to FA's the 86' ban gummed everything up for us, but what are we going to do until Parker comes up?

Nom de Guerre
January 21, 2008, 11:35 AM
This month's Harper's magazine index said that somewhere between 49% and 51% of NJ residents would like to move out of the state! I forget the exact figure, but it's roughly 50%.

I'd want to move too.

woodybrighton
January 21, 2008, 11:56 AM
my team leader once left his hk53 propped up outside a ware house we were "liberating" beer from only missed it half and hour later que wrong down a motorway to get it back still sitting there:D

Pigspitter
January 21, 2008, 12:01 PM
Does the phrase "finder-keeper" come to mind?

mikewalker
January 21, 2008, 02:02 PM
I think some cop thought he'd "take work home" for some fun and didn't return it before somebody noticed.

"I'll just take it out and burn up a few mags and sneak it back to work"

RKBABob
January 21, 2008, 02:49 PM
This month's Harper's magazine index said that somewhere between 49% and 51% of NJ residents would like to move out of the state! I forget the exact figure, but it's roughly 50%.Yep, and they all swarm into Pennsylvania like the proverbial plague of locusts... except locusts are more pleasant. :neener:

alsaqr
January 21, 2008, 02:55 PM
How quaint: The sheeple are scared now that the sheep herders have lost a fully auto weapon.

Since 1993 I have run enviromnental cleanup jobs in 17 states including a big one at Old Bridge, NJ. The developers of the site were the ...... Brothers and they have US Rep. Pallone in their pockets. The ....... were encouraging run off from the site. Reason; to fill in the wetlands so they could develop that too. Pallone kept the EPA off their butts.

Those of you who live around New Brunswick will recognize the name when I tell you that their office is in the old Johnson and Johnson family mansion.

I had to bribe the union phone company employees to get phone service to our trailer: Had to bribe the union power company employees to get power. Then it got really corrupt.

I did attend some really good graduate courses at Rutgers and that made my stay there worth it all.

Zundfolge
January 21, 2008, 02:59 PM
Jeebus ... its a submachine gun, not a suitcase nuke!


If people really understood how little advantage a subgun is over a handgun they'd stop this silliness.

romma
January 21, 2008, 03:40 PM
If people really understood how little advantage a subgun is over a handgun they'd stop this silliness.


Better velocity--Better sight radius--Higher capacity-- better cover fire capability...

I would take the MP5 over a handgun in the same caliber almost anytime in a real combat situation...

Wedge
January 21, 2008, 04:20 PM
Obligatory:

Now I have a machine gun. Ho ho ho

thorn726
January 21, 2008, 05:12 PM
when i saw the title i thought this was about all those cars that are always trying to kill me

Eric F
January 21, 2008, 05:16 PM
Now I have a machine gun. Ho ho ho:neener:

LOL YES!

dcal
January 25, 2008, 05:15 PM
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2008/01/east_orange_teen_set_to_be_arr.html

An East Orange teenager will be arraigned today on charges he fired a machine gun at a moving vehicle in Newark this fall, critically wounding a three -year-old boy who was a passenger in the back seat.

Taron Johnson, 18, is charged with firing the shots that left bullet fragments in the skull of Abdul-Quadir Hutchins, who later had part of his skull removed and was placed in a medically induced coma. He will appear in Essex County Superior Court at 9 a.m.

The 22-count indictment against Johnson includes charges of attempted murder, aggravated assault, possession of a machine gun and other crimes. He faces up to 60 years in prison.

He is accused of firing nine rounds from a machine gun at a silver Toyota Camry Solara on Sept. 7 as it was U-turning on Orchard Street in Newark's East Ward at about 4 p.m.

Prosecutors said they believe Johnson was aiming for the car's driver, Shaquan Murphy, who was not wounded.

Murphy was dating Abdul-Quadir's sister, Latasha Barnes, who was in the front passenger seat and escaped injury, although authorities said one of the shots tore though her purse.

Besides the shot that struck the little boy, another round grazed a 76-year-old woman who was a block away at the corner of Orchard and Pennington Street, police said.

Accompanied by his former lawyer, Shaka Taylor, Johnson turned himself into authorities five days after the shooting. He is held on $1 million bail.

dcal
January 25, 2008, 06:34 PM
For those of you not familiar with NJ. Blue pins are relevant locations.

Map link (http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&ll=40.846541,-74.097977&spn=0.24309,0.6427&z=11&om=0&msid=105816457570912512864.000444936edfa7610800b)

keeleon
January 25, 2008, 07:12 PM
If only there were laws against opening fire on innocent people. MOAR LAWS I SAY!

Prosecutors said they believe Johnson was aiming for the car's driver, Shaquan Murphy, who was not wounded.

This is why FA is silly, in my opinion. You lose so much accuracy, that it's better to just fire it in semi if you actually want to hit something. Seems to me if FA guns were easy and legal to obtain, there would be nothing to be afraid of, since it wouldn't be anything special.

Of course this is pretty scary, no type of guns should be in the hands of people that would do things like this, but it's not any scarier than if he would have stolen an officer's Glock and done this. He might have hit the guy too, of course he might not have hit the kid. It's the equivilant of $10,000 in coke missing from the evidence locker. No matter who has it, it is scary that they don't know where it is.

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