Who Uses BB Birdshot for Home Defense Load?

[nathan]

I see these are quite common esp the Remington Brand in 25 shell box for $15 in Walmart and Academy. I havent heard so much in their application in home defense . Isnt this just a tad smaller than the venerable No4 BK?

[shoup dawg]

I've never had to use it. But (as many will probably also tell you) this is what I use:

3 birdshot
2 buckshot
2 slugs

I have a 7 round shotty.

[barneyfife.357]

although I am not involved in the law, I believe that, in my state at least, (MO) the new CCW law considered personal protection at something rediculous like 21 feet (7 yds) even though I know nobody that can out run a bullet at that distance or further away, I plan to use the rounds inside the home, therefore I would consider bird shot just fine for HD; however, that is what I consider to be safe for innocent bystanders. Just my 2 cents

[markk]

Check out what http://www.theboxotruth.com/ has to say on that subject.

[CWL]

Birdshot is a horrible horrible choice as a SD load. It doesn't penetrate and spreads too fast for accurate firing.

Read this discussion.
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=315025&highlight=birdshot

[barneyfife.357]

though a valid argument, I am not running out to reload my shotgun with buckshot. first off, the report said that much of the birdshot struck the refrigerator, also it said that the person using birdshot was not a gun tech, especially with shotguns. he missed basically, the perp obviously did not.

for your own veiw, try it on a melon, I used a watermelon but anything would work. the furthest distance inside my home is about 30 feet, I set the melon up at 30 feet and fired no 6 bordshot and it did the job. at 10 yards the wad still hits, the pattern is still tight even out of my smooth bore 18" barrel.

granted much further, would have drastic differenes

[pablo45]

I use to use it when I had an apartment. The walls were so thin and the neighbors just on the other side made me rethink using a 9mm Glock or "00" buck or slug.
So in that case I think it was more than justified. Now that I own a home and my nearest neighbor is about 50 feet or so also opposite sides of my entances, exits and windows I feel more safer using "00" or a slug-o.

[camslam]

2 types of people:

People with special circumstances:

I use to use it when I had an apartment. The walls were so thin and the neighbors just on the other side made me rethink using a 9mm Glock or "00" buck or slug.
So in that case I think it was more than justified. Now that I own a home and my nearest neighbor is about 50 feet or so also opposite sides of my entances, exits and windows I feel more safer using "00" or a slug-o.

and...

People with no understanding of ballistics.

Not trying to offend, but seriously there is a reason it is called "bird" shot. Have you seen the size of most birds? :) This topic has been discussed numerous times and each time I remind people that unless you are standing at point blank range when you fire birdshot at someone, usually it will cause them to have a bad day, but it isn't really an effective man stopper.

Get some 00 Buck and be prepared. JMHO.

[rem2429]

I'm a #4 buck fan myself, but 00 has a place. BBs work great on malicious ducks.

[Regolith]

I had 3" steel T (.20") shot loaded in my gun for a while, but I finally found some 00 buckshot locally (it was behind the counter, and the type face on the label was too small for me to read it at a distance; just had to ask the clerk :o ), so that's what I have in my gun now.

[Megiddo]

Markk, first I've seen that http://www.theboxotruth.com/ site, boy do they look like they have fun!

And I should say that http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm shows the affects of a SG against drywall... in their "Box O' Truth"

[MAX100]

Never ever use Birdshot for home defense unless that is all you have. #4 buck is the lowest you should go. There have been many test done, and Birdshot is never recommended. It lacks the ability to penetrate deep. The name Birdshot should tell you something.

Read This, By someone from another site:

Shooting in Butte, Montana

Shotgun preteen vs. illegal alien Home Invaders Butte, Montana November 5, 2006.
Two illegal aliens, Ralphel Resindez, 23, and Enrico Garza, 26, probably believed they would easily overpower home-alone 11 year old Patricia Harrington after her father had left their two-story home.
It seems the two crooks never learned two things: they were in Montana and Patricia had been a clay shooting champion since she was nine.
Patricia was in her upstairs room when the two men broke through the front door of the house. She quick ly ran to her father's room and grabbed his 12 gauge Mo ssberg 500 shotgun.
Resindez was the first to get up to the second floor only to be the first to catch a near point blank blast of buckshot from the 11-year-old's knee crouch aim. He suffered fatal wounds to his abdomen and genitals.
When Garza ran to the foot of the stairs, he took a blast to the left shoulder and staggered out into the street where he bled to death before medical help could arrive.
It was found out later that Resindez was armed with a stolen 45 caliber handgun he took from another home invasion robbery. That victim, 50-year-old David Burien, was not so lucky. He died from stab wounds to the chest.
Ever wonder why good stuff never makes NBC, CBS, PBS, MSNBC, CNN, or ABC news....

Now that is Gun Control"

With birdshot these two would have more than likely ended up in the hospital and possibly come back later on to finish the job.


GC

[Okiecruffler]

I swear this is the last time I post on one of these birdshot vs buckshot threads, that horse is just about pulp by now. I don't get my info from any website or gun mag, I guess I'm just not that savy. I get my evidence from over 15 years working in Level 1 ERs. Anyone who says that birdshot used at home defense ranges is anything less than lethal is smoking crack. Now granted, I've never seen what birdshot does to ballistics gel or wet phone books, only human tissue, so maybe my evidence won't hold up on the internet. Not everyone I've seen hit with birdshot at close range has come in flatlined, but none has pressed on an attack. I've also seen more than a couple of people bring themselves in or picked up off site who were hit with one or 2 buckshot, probably by someone who just pointed and pulled.
Now me, I like 000 buck, but the wife can't tolerate the recoil. She's perfectly fine with a good load of #4 bird. The distance from her side of the bed to the bedroom door is 13 feet. We've mapped these things out, we have a plan. And a plan trumps internet gibberish anyday of the week.
Or maybe I just woke up in a bad mood.

[trackaddict88]

I gotta agree with the "bigger is better" crowd. :eek:

Those guys on the box 'o' truth sure do have some fun, huh? :D

And I only hope my stepdaughter will do the same as the little girl in the Montana link. :o Open borders and no consequenses=Home Invasions.

[ltetmhs]

I ll take 54 pellets of high density T shot over 9 pellets of buck every day of the week dead coyote= dead intruder

[barneyfife.357]

[QUOTE]I swear this is the last time I post on one of these birdshot vs buckshot threads, that horse is just about pulp by now. I don't get my info from any website or gun mag, I guess I'm just not that savy. I get my evidence from over 15 years working in Level 1 ERs. Anyone who says that birdshot used at home defense ranges is anything less than lethal is smoking crack. Now granted, I've never seen what birdshot does to ballistics gel or wet phone books, only human tissue, so maybe my evidence won't hold up on the internet. Not everyone I've seen hit with birdshot at close range has come in flatlined, but none has pressed on an attack. I've also seen more than a couple of people bring themselves in or picked up off site who were hit with one or 2 buckshot, probably by someone who just pointed and pulled.
Now me, I like 000 buck, but the wife can't tolerate the recoil. She's perfectly fine with a good load of #4 bird. The distance from her side of the bed to the bedroom door is 13 feet. We've mapped these things out, we have a plan. And a plan trumps internet gibberish anyday of the week.
Or maybe I just woke up in a bad mood[QUOTE]

Thank you for some real life truth, I agree

[TAB]

If I was too use a shot gun in HD( which I don't do to my floor plan) I would use bird shot. I live in a multi family home. Would bigger be better? you bet. I beleave that if you fill some ones face with shot, rather it bet #8 from a 410 or a 12 ga slug, they are going to stop what they are doing.

[CWL]

Here's a article about a LEO who was shot in the face by a SG birdshot load but was able to chase the BG and return fire at least 7 times. He will survive with full use of his eyes.

http://www.philly.com/philly/hp/news_update/20070924_Report__Police_officer_shot.html


Just a little while ago, someone posted another article with pictures of a man who survived being shot in the face with birdshot after encountering some men who shot his dog(s). Could use some hlep if someone can post link here.

Don't recall any articles of people surviving a full load of 00 buck to the face...

[madcratebuilder]

I swear this is the last time I post on one of these birdshot vs buckshot threads, that horse is just about pulp by now. I don't get my info from any website or gun mag, I guess I'm just not that savy. I get my evidence from over 15 years working in Level 1 ERs. Anyone who says that birdshot used at home defense ranges is anything less than lethal is smoking crack. Now granted, I've never seen what birdshot does to ballistics gel or wet phone books, only human tissue, so maybe my evidence won't hold up on the internet. Not everyone I've seen hit with birdshot at close range has come in flatlined, but none has pressed on an attack. I've also seen more than a couple of people bring themselves in or picked up off site who were hit with one or 2 buckshot, probably by someone who just pointed and pulled.
Now me, I like 000 buck, but the wife can't tolerate the recoil. She's perfectly fine with a good load of #4 bird. The distance from her side of the bed to the bedroom door is 13 feet. We've mapped these things out, we have a plan. And a plan trumps internet gibberish anyday of the week.
Or maybe I just woke up in a bad mood.

I agree, for in-home defense, #4 well get the job done. People that don't believe it need to pattern their shotgun at 15 & 20 feet, It doesn't spread that much folks.

[kmrcstintn]

found this site on a whim, but great info...

http://www.tacticalshotgun.ca/ballistics_shotgun.html

just revisited the site after not being there for a while...REALLY DAMNED GOOD INFO!!! :D

[ZeroJunk]

Anybody with an IQ in double figures knows that 00 Buck will penetrate deeper than bird shot.

But, bird shot at very close range, with the proper choke, can be quite devastating.

[nathan]

NO doubt if hit by birdshots on the eyes , the BG will be incapacitated /out of action. Follow it will more shots if need be.

[ArchAngelCD]

Birdshot is for birds, Buckshot is for Deer size targets. (man falls into that size range)

[mugs79]

I live in a small apartment. I'm also in college.

I know that, reasonably, the only people likely to break in are those looking to steal my laptop or my ipod, or even a few text books.

Those people will, reasonably, be college drunks, or maybe perhaps dropouts.

I keep my bird gun, with it's 30 inch barrel, loaded with 12 gauge #2.

The same shot I use for duckies.

Because I know that, reasonably, the only people invading my apartment, lived in by 4 guys, will be petty thieves.

And for those petty thieves, the pump of my 870 will likely prove intimidating enough.

If not that, a few #2 bird shot rounds to the face or torso will be enough.

Yes yes, I know I know, should some hardened criminal decide it's time for me to die, bird shot will likely prove inadequate.

I'll take my chances. I feel no need to endanger my neighbors.

I'd rather have to be very careful I get my bird shot in the right spot, than to risk my neighbors.

And inspite of the dozens upons dozens who will disagree, I still stand by the intimidation power of a pump shotgun.

I know, I know, that bird shot isn't what you want to use when your life is on the line. But I still say that anything, anything will stop a lot of bad guys in their tracks.

Man size targets get killed best by buck sized shot.

But... for a lot, if not most, bad guys, any sized shot is going to prove itself intimidating as hell.

[Nnobby45]

I'd be concerned that if you point a shotgun at "petty thieves" when your life isn't in danger, then you could be in trouble.

An unloaded shotgun is "intimidating". If you actually need to use the thing it might be a signal that the intimidating factor didn't work.

Less likely your load is to harm your neighbors, the less effective it would be on Bubba and his friends. By the time birdshot spreads out to where there's actually a pattern, it's lost it's penetrating power.

People talk about the shotgun being really intimidating as if Bubba wouldn't mind getting shot with a handgun. A good firearms instructor told me a "secret" years ago. It's not the gun, necessarily they're afraid of.

It's YOU they size up. Criminals who've been in prison get pretty good at it.

[ZeroJunk]

My brother in law shot a medium sized stray dog with #6 shot at about 35 yards thinking he would simply scare the dog away and it killed it.

Most everybody agrees that buckshot is the most reliable killer.

But, don't shoot "petty thieves" with bird shot hoping to just disable or discourage them. Might not work out that way.

[Steve C]

The BB load is the largest of the bird shot. My dad used it on the farm for killing coyotes out to 100 yds from a full choke. These where lead BB shot not the steel loads you find now for waterfowl which are lighter and loose energy faster than lead. Some of the new heavy shot would be even more effective.

I have a friend that made beer money when in the service during the Vietnam War era selling shotguns he bought at the PX to ROK (Republic of Korea) soldiers. He was in the Air Force and flew supplies into Nam.

He told me he’d sell a shotgun, usually Remington 870’s and Mossbergs along with a case of BB load shot shells. Said the ROK’s wouldn’t take buckshot and just wanted BB loads. He’d hand them the gun and a hacksaw and they’d cut the barrel off just in front of the magazine.

The ROK’s had a reputation as tough jungle fighters and if BB’s worked for them in combat there’s little doubt in my mind that they’d be an effective load against bad guys but won’t have the over 100yd range of buck or slugs.

[Regolith]

The BB load is the largest of the bird shot.

Actually, FF is, though its fairly rare. Its just smaller than #4 buckshot (.23 in vs .24 in for #4 buck).

BB, by contrast, is .18 inches, and BBB is .19 inches.

[dvdivx]

Considering lead BB gets an average of 11" in gelatin it's fine for home defense. Only problem is finding lead BB. Steel shot is worthless as it's too light. Hevi-shot's dead coyote rounds at a T size should also be very good for apartments or houses with kids.
If you are using either round for little birds at close range than you must really hate little birds. People using 00 or 000 buckshot in an apartment setting are looking for a manslaughter charge if their neighbor gets hit.
I would not go below lead BB however. BB, BBB, T, F or #4 buck should all be fine you will just get more hits with the BB or T load and more likely to make a vital hit.

[Nnobby45]

The ROK’s had a reputation as tough jungle fighters and if BB’s worked for them in combat there’s little doubt in my mind that they’d be an effective load against bad guys but won’t have the over 100yd range of buck or slugs.



It might be their reputation for hunting jungle fowl and peacocks that's more applicle here, since they had access to 00 buck for hunting the two legged critters.

Effective range (difined as having enough remaining pellet concentration) of 00 buck stops quite a bit short of 100 yds.

[Fast Frank]

So I'm out shooting hand launched clays with some friends on a piece of property that has some oil field equipment on it, right?

This very topic comes up and some of the guys vote for using the #6 we had for bad guys and some of us said no.

Being the curious type, I grabbed an old car hood that was laying on a trash pile and stood it up for some ballistic testing.

At 6", it blew a nice round 1" hole through the car hood- Pass. Bird shot will work fine at 6".

At three feet, the birdshot blew a nice round hole, slightly larger. Pass. Birdshot will work at three feet.

At six feet, the bird shot made a big dent several inches across that did not penetrate the sheet metal of the hood.

At ten feet, the shot had spread enough that it wasn't making one dent, it was making a bunch of little dents.


I know that this isn't scientific proof of anything, and your barrel might make different patterns, but I believe this IS pertinent data.

Some folks say that birdshot will work at close range. I agree, but in my opinion "Close Range" means six feet or less.

If the bad guy is bad enough that I need to shoot him, six feet is too close.

As for the "He's just a petty thief and the shotgun will scare him away", I agree.

I have been involved in a couple of incidents where pointing a shotgun at the bad guy was enough to convince them that they didn't want any of what I was offering.

There was no need to kill these people, and I'm glad I didn't have to. It would have been tragic had one of them made a wrong move while I was holding the shotgun on them with the safety off and my finger on the trigger.

That's all well and good, but those shotguns were loaded with buckshot.

I'm of the opinion that when it gets bad enough that I have to fire a 12 gage at a man to protect myself or my family, then it's about as bad as it will ever get and I better do EVERYTHING I can to insure that I will survive this conflict.

Making any mistake at all under these dire circumstances will be the last mistake I ever make.

And trusting birdshot to stop a man that moves to attack while I'm pointing a 12 gage at his head from across the room is a mistake.

[The Silver Bullet 1719]

No, I use 00 Buckshot because I'm not taking a chance if my life is on the line.

[Dave McCracken]

Birdshot works if close enough. Buck works out to 25 yards or more.

We can't predict the distance of a future firefight.

My defensive shotguns are loaded with buck.

[nathan]

Consensus here on HD load, all birdshots with no 6 minimum to BB good up to 10 ft to be a manstopper. More than 10 ft , buckshots rule. More than 20 yd, switch to sluggers or rifles.

Apartment dwellers--birdshot to buckshots
Home dwellers-buckshots

[pbearperry]

I truly feel #2 shot will work miracles for home defense,unless you live in a home longer than 100 ft.From 12 ft or closer it doesen't matter what type of birdshot you use,the damn wads will kill the bad guy.

[10 Spot Terminator]

Food for thought here is birdshot is ment for wingshooting and if your intention is just to "WING" someone that puts you into the position of having to defend your home along with possibly you or your loved ones lives then you may have just brought a BB gun to a GUNFIGHT ! Bear in mind your surroundings as to how much is enough as shooting through walls might do more harm than good to your loved ones and that with a little forethought you can help come up with the best compromise . Barrel length and choke will have a great effect on the pattern density of the shot you chose as will the type of shell you are shooting . many of the heavier shots loaded today are extreme range hunting loads and do not spread quickly enough to put them into what would be deemed a "HALLSWEEPER" catagory for indoor defense . There are probabally loads out there most of us never see or hear about and quick search of the web will most likely find more than a few . If you have a friend who reloads shotgun rounds I would tend to think some of the faster patterning wads for clay shooting sports and heavier density pellets like those found
to make "slinky"drifter weights for Steelhead Trout fishing should do the trick, after all ,,, you should only need
a few of these loaded up unless you plan to have a lot of uninvited guests . :eek:

[bpisler]

At one time i had to use birdshot for
HD but with a turkey choke and some
Remington #4 turkey loads i didn't
feel defenseless at all.

[Wire]

Shooting in Butte, Montana

Shotgun preteen vs. illegal alien Home Invaders Butte, Montana November 5, 2006.

Never happened (http://www.snopes.com/politics/crime/homeinvasion.asp)

[fireflyfather]

One other consideration that hasn't been mentioned: Multiple attackers.

When facing multiple determined attackers (some people on this board have had that misfortune), pumping several rounds into one of them when one or two could do the job is not smart. I'd rather reserve the limited ammunition in the tube for the other assailants.

Also, I don't assume that the only place where the SG might be used (god forbid) is in the hallway/bedroom of the home. I live in earthquake & wildfire country, in a residential area. After a major urban breakdown, there many not BE a hallway or bedroom, and you are now facing people at longer distances, without walls to put your back up against.

Also, planning on shooting someone in the face with birdshot at those close quarters everyone's talking about means you had better be able to aim that SG accurately at close range, since your pattern will be measured in low-single-digit inches. Center of mass is much more reliable, and safer (less shot are likely to blow by the BG and hit god knows what, plus even the small change of angle will tend to put your shot a little more towards the ground instead of upwards into your neighbor's place.

[Ed Ames]

I know that this isn't scientific proof of anything, and your barrel might make different patterns, but I believe this IS pertinent data.

Ever try the same experiment with 00 buck?

My version was a computer case packed with computer components at 8-10 feet. Just a standard mini-tower, shot from the bottom so that it was going straight into sheet metal. Consider it ballistic gelatin calibrated for robot.

Birdshot made a dent.
00 buckshot made 9 or so [smaller] dents.
9mm ball made a hole but the bullet didn't go far.
.223 made a hole and the bullet did quite a bit of damage to the case contents.
7.62x55R made bigger holes but not enough bigger. Some of the bullets also left the other side of the case.
12ga slugs made a big hole and caused the most internal damage.

My scientific conclusion: Shot, including buckshot, is insufficient to stop the robot overlords from enslaving humanity. When faced with a machine uprising insist on slugs or, if cost is a factor, .223.

NOTE: if you decide to try your own experiments, first think about where the lead is going to go if it doesn't stop in the target or backstop (think mirror) and do try to make sure there are no robot spies watching....

Extending this to humans: birdshot is firmly in the "I don't wanna be hit by any thanks" catagory for me... and it has its place in home defense... but shot is at best equivalent to a bunch of pistol-caliber handgun hits and there is a real lower limit. Slugs are in a class of their own. Lead BB shot is going to be like being hit with, what, 50-60 .177 pellet gun rounds going way faster than they'll ever go out of a pellet gun. I've been shot with a .20 cal pellet gun (that didn't push pellets at anything like 1300fps) and it ain't fun. 60, in a 1-2" circle, with over 4x the energy (over twice the velocity)? Count me out!