[tblt]

What is a magazine safety disconnect on an auto pistol?????

[metallic]

It's a device that inhibits the weapon from firing without a magazine in the chamber. If you chamber a round and drop the magazine, a gun equipped with one will not fire.

[tblt]

Ok thanks
It might be a good thing I could keep one in the chamber but the magize out loaded then just pop the magizine in and ready to fire.That might prevent someone from pulling the trigger as they pulled the loaded gun from a safe.

[Mandirigma]

That might prevent someone from pulling the trigger as they pulled the loaded gun from a safe.

Why is thier finger on the trigger when pulling the gun from a safe?

[possum]

metallic is correct.
tblt: fyi there are some guns out there that are capable of having the device removed.

some people like em some people don't. they are see to be a plus for leo's and suh and i guess for ccw holders as well, if for some reason the gun owners weapon is being wrested out of there hands, or they are being disarmed they can drop the mag and that will cause the bg to have a wortless weapon in the case that they actually are able to drop the mag.

in my opio sounds good for a leo, as they are open carrying while on duty 9 times out of 10. but for a ccw, the bad guy shouldn't know you are carrying and the dang sure shouldn' be able to get that close to you without you reacting.

[ambidextrous1]

"If you're struggling with a BG for control of your firearm, and have the presence of mind to drop the magazine, raise your hand:"

"Any takers?"

"Let me clarify: Raise your hand now!"

"Okay, we have a responder, the guy in the third row! Sir, you have just made your firearm inoperable; what now?"

(30 seconds of silence)

"Okay, if your firearm has a magazine disconnect, here is how you disable that 'feature'".

[possum]

If you're struggling with a BG for control of your firearm, and have the presence of mind to drop the magazine, raise your hand:"
my thoughts exactly, well said. there are gonna be 100 other things going through the mind and getting the mag to drop from he weapon isn't one of them.

[isp2605]

I know 3 of our guys who are alive today because they dropped their mags when the BG was taking their weapons. So don't think it doesn't happen. If you have been in a life or death struggle with someone and you have had defensive tactics training then you would know that all your training comes into play.

[isp2605]

(double tap)

[isp2605]

(triple tap)

[isp2605]

(quad tap)

[chipperi]

I personally hate them. The S&W 39-2 ASP as well as my everyday carry gun the S&W 4516 have both had it removed.

[Cannonball888]

My cheapie F.I.E. Titan II has a mag safety disconnect along with a hammer block safety and a trigger safety. One very safe little gun.

[The Lone Haranguer]

I have two pistols with them, a S&W 3913 and a Beretta 86. With the magazine out, the trigger linkage is disconnected. It is, to me, a benign feature, neither helping nor hurting anything.

[possum]

edit: not very high roadish sorry

[copaup]

I've been in a fight over my duty weapon. Being able to drop the mag and kill the gun was a good feeling. Its a heck of a lot easier to finish a fight when you aren't terrified your about to be shot to death with your own service weapon.

What do you do next? Several options present themselves.
Pull BUG and shoot the idiot
Pull knife and stab the idiot
jam a thumb through the idiots eye/nasal cavity/ other tender area
hit idiot with whatever heavy object your hand lands on

all kinds of things that become a lot easier in that brief second when the gun is disabled and you can take one of your hands off of it to go to plan B, whatever plan b may be.

I don't care one way or the other for CCW, but for a duty weapon, its a must for me.

[isp2605]

I don't care one way or the other for CCW, but for a duty weapon, its a must for me.
Exactly.
It's a whole lot different situation even comparing military to LE. In the military I always had the rest of the squad, platoon, or whatever within immediate response. There was always immediate backup. As a LEO it was often a very long time before anyone even knew I was in hot water let alone getting backup which could be 30 minutes or a couple of hours depending on the time of day.

[HisSoldier]

Mag safeties have a very negative side effect, most, if not all of them, keep the mag from dropping out during reload. That means you must grip the mag and pull it out. The hand you are gripping the mag with would probably be better utilized grabbing a fresh mag while the empty drops away of it's own weight. Mag safeties are mostly a European idea that should have died long ago in my opinion. Like most European ideas they are stupid and redundant, solving a problem that doesn't exist.

Having said that it has occurred to me that many accidental discharges that have happened while someone was playing with an "empty" gun may not have happened with a magazine safety, the first thing one usually does when cleaning is remove the magazine. If the gun is always considered to be loaded then it's not a problem, it's loaded, so don't point it at anyone, and make sure that the next thing is to make sure it's not loaded.

I take mag safeties out as soon as I get guns with them, then make sure the mags drop out when asked to.

[dogrunner]

Well said ISP!!!

The critics and gun shop experts that theorize on why its a flaw have without exception NEVER been in a life or death scuffle for their gun.

DON'T presume to tell me that you DON'T think of dropping that mag. You damned sure do and I did!

Try wrestling a naked, sweaty crack monster that outweighs you by 30 pounds, is hyped up and gonna kill you with your own gun.......add to it that you are falling in and out of running shower with the idiot in an eight foot square bathroom praying for help to get there quicker than quick and you'll sure appreciate that you've some way to disable that piece......

And thats just ONE good reason I refused to carry Glock's product...

[copaup]

My 4043, 5946, and 229r (yep, Sig will add a disconnect at departmental request) all have mag disconnects. All will drop empty mags without fail. The 5946 will actually launch them quite energetically. The hi power I once owned had a problem with some aftermarket mags, but factory mags dropped just fine. Only pistol I ever owned that mags wouldn't drop free was a CZ-75, and that was a design feature due to a leaf spring that was MEANT to keep the mag from dropping free. Europeans seem to be more concerned with loosing magazines than Americans, and it is somewhat common to find Euro pistols that will hold on to a magazine. This is due to a different philosophy, not the mag safety.

[isp2605]

Mag safeties have a very negative side effect, most, if not all of them, keep the mag from dropping out during reload.
S&W autos don't have any problem at all with mags dropping free. My agency issued S&W autos for 32 yrs and I still carry a S&W auto for the 8 yrs after my agency went to another make. Empty mags drop fine. Grabbing a fresh mag while the empty dropping has not been a problem.
Some makes do hang up but it has nothing to do with the mag safety. Don't forget Glocks were first designed with non-drop free mags.

[dogrunner]

I'll add to the comment about S&W's NOT having any problem with mags.

I currently own three...a 645, a 469 and a 39-2............further, my agencys carry guns were about 90% S&W......in no instance did I ever see any single piece that had a problem with dropping expended mags. In fact, of the first 645s I saw ALL had rubber bumper pads on the mag base plates to avoid damage.....that alone says they drop freely!

[wditto]

I am trying very hard to understand why you would take the time to disable a pistol when you could just shoot the BG....I suppose I can imagine some situation where I am pinned in a bizarre position where only my thump is moveable, but where would my trigger-finger be ? Or if my hand/forearm is clamped by the strongest man alive, what is my boot/shoe doing to earn it's keep?
I do not want to sound facetious, I just don't see it .

[isp2605]

I do not want to sound facetious, I just don't see it .
You've never been in a true life or death hand to hand struggle with someone or where they were trying to disarm you? Guess not or you wouldn't have asked the question.
Life is so much simpler in books, magazines and TV.

[Mad Magyar]

I'm sure you'd like to know what Mas Ayoob says on the subject?:rolleyes:
It saves lives for LEO's in some cases.....Personally, I'm more concerned with other things if confronted....:)

[AndyC]

Interesting to see an LEO perspective on it; I've always found them to be worse-than-useless personally (the mag-safety, not the LEOs...but then again..... ;) ), but it's nice to hear that they do serve a purpose for some folks ;)

[rcmodel]

I am trying very hard to understand whyGood grief!
Ever been in a gun-grab struggle? No, I mean ever?

There were several instances recorded of Ill. State Police making gun grab struggles come out in their favor by dropping the mag on the issue Model 39 S&W's, and later 59's during the first few years they used them.
They were the first agency to use them.

BTW: All S&W's pistols with magazine safety's have drop-free mags. There is no interferance at all with the safety & mag.

Browning hi-powers are another matter, but even they are easily made drop-free with a minor amount of polishing here & there!

IMHO: It's also really an excellent safety feature if you have small kids or teen-agers in the house. You can't just pick up the gun, remove the mag, and shoot your buddy anymore!

Those who remove them from all guns must really live in a high-stress environment.

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j219/rcmodel/KTOG/1224.gif
rcmodel

[shooter1]

I am retired LEO, but I have a little different take on mag disconnects. The Smiths were among the first issue pistols replacing the revolvers. The mag disconnect was a selling feature for agencies making the change over. There are documented cases where officer's lives were saved by dropping the mags, disabling the firearm. I suspect more lives have been saved by intensive weapons retention training. Multiple assailants can disarm any officer, and in that instance, I don't think a mag disconnect would make that much difference. Another consideration is that the pistol will not fire for the officer either, unless another mag in inserted. Mags can also be fumbled and lost durring a reload, turning the weapon into a 2# club instead of a single shot. Bottom line, if anyone feels safer with a mag disconnect, great! That's the beauty of freedom of choice. Me, I remove mag disconnects if I find myself in possession of a pistol with one. I find them cumbersome and un necessary.

str1

[isp2605]

There were several instances recorded of Ill. State Police making gun grab struggles come out in their favor by dropping the mag on the issue Model 39 S&W's, and later 59's during the first few years they used them.
They were the first agency to use them.

Correct. As I wrote earlier, I know 3 of those guys personally. There were others but 3 who I know, the others I know of.
Also, one of our dispatchers who worked as a part timer for a local agency was another save when he dropped his mag after being jumped by 2 escapees from OK.
BTW, the ISP never issued the 59 but went to the 439 then to the 459.

I'm sure you'd like to know what Mas Ayoob says on the subject?
Mas writes of one incident involving Bill Pierce who shot 2 guys who had jumped another Troop and taken his 39. As the Troop was wrestling for possession of his gun he dropped the mag rendering it useless. Bill came upon the Troop just then and shot both.

There are documented cases where officer's lives were saved by dropping the mags, disabling the firearm. I suspect more lives have been saved by intensive weapons retention training. Multiple assailants can disarm any officer, and in that instance, I don't think a mag disconnect would make that much difference.
You might be surprised at the amount and extensive weapons retention training the ISP gets. It's not just in the academy but 12 mandatory refresher sessions a year. Not many agencies require that much of their officers.
Of the 3 guys and our dispatcher who were disarmed and saved by the mag disconnect, 2 of the incidents involved multiple assailants, the other 2 incidents were 1 on 1. Of the 4 incidents 2 the guys said they intentionally dropped the mag as they were struggling to retain it but felt the gun being ripped from their grasp. The other 2 said during the struggle either they or the BG hit the mag button inadvertently dropping the mag. One of those the Troop carried with the safety engaged and we believe the BG hit the mag button thinking he was hitting the safety as he tried firing the weapon at the Troop. In the 1 incident mentioned above where the Troop was engaged with 2 subjects and had intentionally dropped the mag the BG with his gun couldn't make it fire so he was racking the slide, trying to fire, rack the slide, tried to fire, and was finally shot by another Troop.
For almost 8.5 yrs I investigated, supervised, and/or reviewed all of our shootings. I also went back and studied all our previous shootings that I could get detailed info. Also talked to other agencies who were carrying S&W autos. I could not find 1 incident where a mag disconnect was a detriment in any shooting situation however I found several situations where the mag disconnect saved officers' lives.
Another review I and some others did was of non-LEO shootings. We found that other than ambushes/drive by shootings most shootings involving non-LEOs were as close if not closer than LEO shootings. Wasn't really a surprise tho when thinking about it. Most non-LEO shootings involved people who know each other and where interaction between the shooter and victim are at conversation distances, well within the 7 yds. Many of those shootings involved the 2 struggling over the gun before 1 is shot. Again, not surprising when you study the shootings as they usually involve some disagreement between the parties, words exchanged, and then the gun. These are usually different than LEO involved shootings where there is usually a conversation but the shooting does not involved the disagreements and heated exchange prior to the shootings. So the chance of a non-LEO being involved in a gun grappling exchange is usually more likely than a LEO. But how many non-LEOs have any kind of weapon retention training? Very very few. If they do, how many have reoccuring training? Hardly any at all. Weapons retention is a perishable skill. If you don't repeatedly practice it and practice it correctly then you don't have it. And just reading about it isn't training. You have to get with it and get some bumps and bruises if you practice it.

[shooter1]

isp2605,
As I only carried Smiths for a short time, my work experience with Mag Disconnects is limited. I did however train extensively in contact martial arts. There is no one alive that can't be disarmed under the right circumstances, but I think some officers set themselves up for a disarm by allowing subjects inside their bubble when it could be prevented. I am curious as to what your dept. currently issues, and if it has a mag disconnect. Glocks and Sigs are the most common in my AO, both without MDs of course. It would seem logical that if your experiences are typical of other agencies, that mag disconnects
would be a common requirement on issue duty weapons. As I mentioned earlier, I disconnect them on my personal weapons. I like the manual of arms to be the same on all my pistols. I also confess to shooting action pistol sports where the removal of the mag disconnect improves the trigger pull and lets mags drop freely, like on my Hi Power. Stay safe out there brother!
str1

[isp2605]

We issued S&W autos for 32 yrs. In 1999 we went to Glocks. That was strictly because of finances. It would have cost us an additional $1/4 mil to stay with S&W and the legislature wouldn't give us the additional money. So it's been Glock since 1999.
I don't disagree with you at all that officers often put themselves in a bad position. Some people no matter how much training you give them just don't think at times and get drawn into a bad situation. Afterwards, if possible, they can tell you where they screwed up. They know as well as anyone else at what point they let their guard down. There's also the factor there are some pretty mean hombres out there who are capable of taking on a grizzly bear with a stick and the LEO can find themselves in a hurting situation before they realize what's happening. Sometimes BGs do win no matter what training has been received.
Removing the mag disconnect does help the trigger on the BHP, or at least it did. Don't know about the newer BHPs but I haven't heard where they've changed anything. We've played with removing the mag disconnect in S&W autos to see if it would do anything to the trigger pull. Didn't see any change.
Since going to Glocks I was briefed on 2 incidents where Troops had BGs attempt to disarm them. In 1 incident a back up Troop put a rd in the BG ending that fight. In the other the Troop, by himself, was jumped from behind and during the fight for his Glock he fired a rd hitting the BG in the butt/thigh which took the fight out of him. In both cases the Troops were able to maintain possession of their guns but firing the rds put an early end to the altercations.
Our troops get quite a bit of weapons retention training and refresher. In the academy it's extensive. Training is almost the entire duration of the academy and it's several days a week for a couple of hours each session. After academy it's a mandatory 12 refreshers a yr. That doesn't include the range time, just defensive tactics refresher. It's a pain to schedule all the training and getting everyone in it but it's paid off. Having done use of force investigations and reviews there's no doubt that it has saved some lives or at least some serious injuries.
Stay safe out there.