[sturmruger]

I always hear people that are fed up with the current status of the USA and its plethora of gun laws. My questions is, is there another country out there that has less gun laws then the US and still has a decent standard of living?

I am no expert, but off the top of my head I can't think of any country that has more liberal firearms laws the USA. Please correct me if I am wrong.

[Dorrin79]

well, there's always Somalia or any other place where there is no law at all.

As far as developed countries go, I've always heard Switzerland is very pro-gun.

Some of the former Warsaw Pact countries might be OK too.

[Justin]

Um, actually the United States has fairly liberal firearms laws.

As it stands, the US still has the best gun laws and the highest standard of living.

Still doesn't change the fact that the US is only the healthiest patient in the cancer ward...

[sturmruger]

I wonder if Switzerland allows CCW.

Obviously if someone had enough money they could move to Somalia and build their own Compound, pay off the local law and live like a king.

[Tamara]

I can't think of any country that has more conservative firearms laws the USA.

The USA has liberal firearms laws. Please don't help them twist the language. :uhoh:

Laws that are free and open are called liberal laws.

[Justin]

On the topic of Somalia-

Believe it or not, but since the Somalis booted the UN out of the country, the place has been doing quite well. Individuals are setting up private enterprises in order to get the infrastructure built, they are starting companies, and the violence is not nearly as bad as it was during the time of the Blackhawk Down incident. (That's not to say that it isn't still a dangerous place.)

Regardless, in the absense of any sort of actual government or foreign aid, the Somalis are thriving in an environment of an unfettered free market.

[B27]

Listen at Tamara.
The Founders frequently spoke and wrote of "establishing a liberal system of government."
This is why they are correctly referred to as classical liberals.
Today classical liberals have had to resort to calling themselves libertarians as the word liberal has practically become a synonym for socialist in common use.:)

[Kreed]

Today classical liberals have had to resort to calling themselves libertarians as the word liberal has practically become a synonym for socialist in common use.

Roger that. The fact that today's modern "liberals" are in fact the ones who want to take all our freedoms away shows how thoroughly the political left has hijacked the language and terms of the debate.

Stay safe,

http://www.joebrower.com/images_RKBA/Gadsden_flag.gif

[Dorrin79]

Justin -

yeah, I read a pretty neat article in Reason a while back about the incredible explosion (um, bad word choice :uhoh: ) of entrepeneurship there. Amazing what people are capable of when the government gets out of the way.

Still, thanks to overpopulation and local eccentricies (the whole tribal wars thing) I don't think I'll be visiting anytime soon

:cool:

[Ala Dan]

If I could choose to live in another country other
than the good ole' U.S. of A. it most definitely would be
Switzerland . Not only cuz they are pro-gun; but
because of the climate as well!

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

[rick newland]

Ala Dan, switzerland is a great country, but the people are so rigid and boring. Been there several times. Live near Ardmore, but spent 20 years in Europe.

[MicroBalrog]

IIRC, No CCW in Switzerland since circa 1998.

[illuminatus99]

switzerland is not quite the gun-utopia it's made out to be, no CCW, and when you shoot you can only shoot at a range, you have to buy the ammo there and you can't take it home. with your issue weapon you get 24 rounds, if you open the pack without being called to militia duty you could be looking at prison time.

[JeepDriver]

What about Norway?

I remember seeing some really cool guns owned by some members from there.

[4v50 Gary]

How much freedom for how much lawlessness? There's a balance to be struck and our founding fathers did rather well.

[mattd]

Afghanistan isn't to bad, not heavy weapons like artillery and rpg just guns are allowed.

[Mark Tyson]

Plenty of countries exist where guns are readily available . . . unfortunately, in many of these places hospitals, schools, roads, etc. are NOT as readily available. If you are fantastically wealthy and want a little adventure, think about one of the Middle Eastern regions like Kurdistan or Yemen.

Yes, the security situation is hairy. But if you are the guest of one tribe, local customs usually obligate that tribe to protect you from kidnappers. A little charity to the locals, contribution to the local orphanage or establishnig a clinic should do a lot to cement some goodwill.

From reading the posts on this site, I'll bet half of you guys would jump at the chance to live in a wild, lawless trigger-happy land. Just make sure you fly back to the states for your dental work.

[mussi]

Ok, about CCW: It's true the law says only may-issue. BUT, and that's very important, it depends on the cantons. They can stretch the rules quite a bit and do. Some cantons allow restaurant patrons, gas station owners etc to carry, others don't. Basically, having a bit of "Vitamine B" (B stands for "Beziehungen", or connections), helps a lot.

Shooting:

- Public range, 300m: Only ordonnance rifles, plus UIT rifles in 7.5mm or 5.56mm. You theoretically have to buy the ammo at the range, BUT there are lots of people like me that bring their own. We don't complain as long as the ammo is lead-core and jacketed. No tracers as well.

- Private ranges: Depends on the owner, usually most handgun calibers and 12 gauge are OK on 25/50m, and on hunting stands, it's usually only bolt action. There are subterrean private ranges that allow semi-auto rifles. Having full-auto shoots is a bit of a mess for the paper work, but as well as legal possession of these guns, it can be done.

[MicroBalrog]

IIRC, only 8 carry permits were issued in the last 5 years, not sure if I can back this up though.:banghead: :banghead:

[Tamara]

Maybe you could ask mussi, as he lives there. ;)

[Chris Rhines]

I actually did a fair amount of research on this very subject around a year ago, when I was giving some serious thought to expatriating. Short version - there are no few countries out there that are more free than the United States, as long as you're willing to pick and choose the freedoms you care about.

Gun-wise, there are two basic types of nation-state - ones with comparable/more attractive gun laws than the US, and ones with no law at all to speak of.

The first group would include Switzerland (immigration is almost impossible), the Czech Republic, and Costa Rica. I am told that the Czech Republic has no federal-level firearms laws at all. One of these days I'll get around to Czeching with the embassy...

The second group consists mainly of benighted fourth-world hellholes with no formal legal structure to speak of. This can be a good thing or bad, depending on your perspective. Someone already mentioned orphanages and medical clinics; a person with some investement capital, the proper skillsets, and an entrepenural spirit could start their own buisness in such a place without much in the way of regulatory hassle. Lack of a government monopoly on social services yields a big market vaccum; I could see transportation companies, water reclamation and processing, small ISPs, what have you... Something to consider, although it would be a big step with no guarentee of success (or even survival.)

- Chris

[MicroBalrog]

What are the gun laws in Costa Rica?:what:

[Dave Markowitz]

Source: http://costarica-embassy.org/weapons.htm

The admission of firearms and ammunition in to the territory of Costa Rica are subject to restrictions and import permits approved by the Costa Rican authorities.

Applications to import non-military weapons in to Costa Rica may be filed by or through a licensed importer, authorized dealer, or a particular person. The Congress of Costa Rica strongly restricts the import of any war weapons in to Costa Rica; therefore any war weapon in hands of a non-authorized individual is ILEGAL in Costa Rica.

Permits to carry personal weapons in Costa Rica are issued by the Ministry of Public Security (Ministerio de Seguridad Pública). The process to issue these permits will take up to two (2) months, given that all the requested documentation is presented.

The Embassy of Costa Rica and the Government of Costa Rica strongly discourage people from traveling with their personal weapons.

However, if you want to bring a handgun, revolver, or pistol in to Costa Rica, you must follow the required procedure:

1. Inform the airline that you are traveling with a weapon.

2. Once you arrive in Costa Rica, your weapon will remain at the Customs office until you register the weapon at the Ministry of Public Security (Ministerio de Seguridad Pública) at the Department of Firearms and Ammunitions. There, you must provide the following documents:

a. Official Registration of the firearm with the corresponding authorities of your State of residence (Secretary of State and or Police Department). This document must be duly certified by the Costa Rican consulate, please follow the authentication procedure.

b. Police record from the Police precinct where you have legally reside for the last six (6) months. This document must be no older than six (6) months, and must be duly certified by the Costa Rican consulate, please follow the authentication procedure.

c. Weapon Entrance Proof of Receipt issued by the Customs/Airport authorities in Costa Rica.

d. Take a psychological test in Costa Rica to evaluate your personality traits.

3. Once you obtain the required permits, bring them to the Customs Office and your weapon will be released.

If you are caught traveling with a weapon without the appropriate permits and registrations in Costa Rica, your weapon will be confiscated and you will be fined, arrested or deported.

[MicroBalrog]

Does that only apply to travellers or to citizens too?

[telomerase]

I would think that regardless of current law, the Tico gun laws are headed in a more liberal direction; 10% of the Costa Rican Congress is Movimiento Libertario (Libertarian): http://libertario.org/index.htm

(but if anyone has a good link to their current laws I'd love to see it).

I asked a Honduran friend of mine about the gun laws there; they looked at me like I was an idiot and said; "Hondurans don't obey any of the laws of any kind, so why does it matter?".

[MicroBalrog]

Israel has no Libertarian party. At all. Whatsoever.:banghead:

[telomerase]

>Israel has no Libertarian party. At all. Whatsoever.

Costa Rica wouldn't have one either if their politicians got billions of US aid every year. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with Israelis. (Herzl really should have taken the Madagascar offer...)

[Triad]

The Dominican Republic seems like a good destination. (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?threadid=5803&highlight=Dominican+Republic)

[Cooter Brown]

What kind of a silly discussion is this?

In the history of the world, there has never been a place as free or as great as the rural USA.

Period.

[telomerase]

>In the history of the world, there has never been a place as free or as great as the rural USA.

...Of 1967. However, Americans are steadily losing rights while other countries' citizens reclaim theirs. I think it makes sense to keep an eye on foreign countries... if only to point out to our fellow Americans which policies work and which don't.

[Old Pa]

What about withholding foreign aid from countries with confiscatory gun laws? Make the next step in global democratization begun under Ronaldus Magnus the recognition of the right to self defense as a requisite for receiving our tax dollars? Take another step towards putting our personal rights in the Bill of Rights on a par with each other and as part of our foreign policy?

[MicroBalrog]

Old Pa: YES!!!

[dustind]

what about Norway or Sweden I think those are pretty free countries, guns and otherwise.

[Justin]

Sweden is highly socialized, some of the highest rates of taxation in the 'civilized' world.

How about Romania, or other formerly Communist nations? I would suspect that most of the people in such nations would be incredibly suspicious of statists.

[Byron Quick]

Except for CCW, it sounds as if Finland has some pretty good laws. I think they can get NFA weapons that we can't here in the US. At least not without paying an arm and a leg.

[PrudentGT]

I've always dreamed of retiring to a little place with a small vinyard in Ticino. Just get a company to sponsor a work permit, work there for 12 years, and viola'! Swiss citizen. Easy as pie, right? :(

[mattd]

I've read some swiss gun laws and they are way worst than here.

[gunsmith]

From reading the posts on this site, I'll bet half of you guys would jump at the chance to live in a wild, lawless trigger-happy land. Just make sure you fly back to the states for your dental work.

If you mean oakland CA it's right across the bridge from me,or maybe you mean Washington D.C?:neener:

[Partisan Ranger]

I have to say, living in Russia did open my eyes. See, you can reach a point in a society where there are so MANY freaking laws, no one obeys much of anything. Living there was kinda cool, because just about anything was possible, if you had the cash to pay the mafia to get it done.

I also liked being able to drink a beer on the street with my friends, light a campfire in ANY forest anywhere, and fish without a license.

A lack of rule of law does have its pluses, but of course living in America is much better.

[ShaiVong]

We had a honduran working for us, and he alluded that just about everybody had an AK47, and that the ammo was dirt cheap. And I do mean dirt cheap. Something along the lines of $20 / several hundred rounds.

That and talk of people loosing arms in drunken machete fights. :uhoh:

[RM]

Does Germany have alot of gun control? I would think with HK there and with their "no speed limit" expressways, perhaps they would not have restrictive gun laws. Since no one has mentioned Germany, I guess not.

[Cooter Brown]

hey, don't you guys let the door knob hit you in the arse on the way out of the USA.......:neener:

[2nd Amendment]

The big question isn't really how much freedom other nations have relative to the US. We're stil No. 1, but being the best of a bad lot isn't much of an accomplishment. The questions should be how much freedom have we lost? How far have we slid from where we were and should be? And where are we going to wind up?

Sometime in the not to distant future, when private firearms ownership is banned, tax rates run 90% and private property is virtually unheard of in the rest of the developed world will we be bragging about our 80% tax rate, ability to still own single shots and private land...if we can afford the property taxes? After all, we'll still be No 1...

[Mark Tyson]

Temptation, temptation . . .

I better not go overseas anymore. I may never make it back through customs . . .

[T.Stahl]

RM,

I can buy all the magazines I want. Give me 500€ and I'll have a Beta-C for SL8 before the end of next week. I have a Bubits stock for my Glock that cost me ~80€, no silly tax involved to make it legal. But that's it.

I have to proove a "need" for almost any gun that I want to buy. I'm not allowed to shoot at human silhouettes or practise defensive shooting. I'm not allowed to use aforementioned Beta-C (or any other mag holding more than ten rounds) in my SL8.

Actually, gunwise I'd be much better off as a legal alien in Tennessee than as a German citizen in Germany.

[DrPsycho]

New Zealand. They may not have CCW, but when the police don't even carry - there's no reason to fret.

[igor]

Finland is good as has been said, but it's a game of give and take. Most of the below is similar in Sweden - they have possibility to CCW and they draft less. The Norwegians draft even less, fill me in on the CCW? Both tend to place yet a bit higher in the standard-of-living stats.

But Finland: no RKBA, must demonstrate need. Firearms registration obviously covers everything that shoots gunpowder-propelled projectiles (+ OC and other tear gas devices). No CCW.

Gun permit 27€ - if you apply for several at a time, you get a couple € discount for subsequent permits. No magazine restrictions, no suppressor or bayonet restrictions, no restrictions based on appearance. Full auto possible with registration as collector - must jump through hoops, but it's possible. During your obligatory conscript military year you'll get trigger time with fine milled-receiver Sako/Valmet M62's and whatnot. The Finnish language is entirely unintelligible to all but Estonians. Swedish/Norwegian/Danish is possible for Westerners to learn and one can cope either in English or Swedish in Finland.

The ancient Scandinavian law of Everyman's Right guarantees access to land and water, public and private, if you behave. Hunting (small game) and fishing permits cheap and available. Big game (elk, deer) - you need admission to the local hunter society, impossible to get in outside direct bloodline to current members.

Taxation is high, in return health insurance from cradle to grave, public pension when 65, excellent and entirely free education as much as you can consume, very good unemployment safety net. Standard of living is very high, constantly in World Top Ten. Democracy works from local to state level, corruption is zero. Police very well trained and democratically controlled. Violent crime is predictable and mostly happens within isolated subcultures. No need to CCW.

This is Freedom as we see it - obviously YMMV :D .

[Kobun]

Have to show a need in Norway too.
Guns are licensed, no CCW.
If you are active, you can own quite a few guns.
Standard of living is supposed to be high. We have a surplus of $80 Billion, but our roads suck.

[T.Stahl]

..., but our roads suck.
But I bet you have much less traffic jams than we do. ;)

[igor]

Hey Kobun, our roads suck with a lot less budget surplus!

But compared to Stautobahn, it still is easy... ought to be as well since we only have 5 million people in an area as big as West Germany used to be.

It's not too crowded there in Norway either, it's just that you waste your good space on all those mountains :p . All level bits of land are made into soccer fields... :cool: so where could you put a road?

The Scandinavian countries take a number of political refugees every year... :D

[T.Stahl]

Stautobahn
Hadn't heard that one yet. :D Where did you pick it up?

[igor]

I guess I read it in Stern . Years ago. Dunno... such wordplay isn't so frequent in German but can be done.

edit to add: do you read Walter Moers comics? :D :D :D :banghead:

[T.Stahl]

Sorry, I'm a conservative Roman Catholic, I hate Walter Moers. :fire: ;)

[ShaiVong]

ohhh great. Now the thread has degraded into eurotrash inside jokes! ;) :neener:

[cordex]

Funny how threads drift, isn't it? From "What is the second most free country in the world?" to "Anyone who thinks the US isn't the best around should leave now and good riddance!" to "Warum kreuzte der Deutsche die Strasse?".

I may check out Dominica (not the same thing as the Domincan Republic, mind you). Went there quite a few years ago ... didn't see any guns, but I bet it wouldn't be too hard to get an exemption from the Queen.

[ShaiVong]

Is she good looking? upgrade time!

[six 4 sure]

I’m still hoping to win the Lotto so I can buy my own island and declare myself king. :D :D

six

[ShaiVong]

Tell me if you do six! You'll have your first loyal subject. Can I be a Duke?

[Justin]

Six-
Now there's an idea.
Or you could just find an abandoned military platform like the guy who declared himself King of Sealand:

http://www.sealandgov.com/

My understanding is that they're quite heavily armed. :)

[Jaco]

You won't get more liberal in a civilised society than the US. In my attempts to immigrate to New Zealand I aksed the consulate about their firearm legislation, and the response was that handguns are difficult, rifles not. I asked why, and their response was : "There's not much to defend yourself against, it's not like South Africa..."

[six 4 sure]

I'm looking for somewhere a little bigger than Sealand.:) Or more to the point somewhere with better weather.:D Surely I can find something in the Caribbean or South Pacific for the right price. If I'm going to have my own country I'm going to at least have enough room to put in my own 1000 yard range. :D

six

[brookstexas]

Every family gets to have a full auto AK....