[ny32182]

So I took my first 100 .223 reloads to the range today. External dimension of each round should have been the same (at least, I built them to be the same)...

The first 90 rounds went off without issue. I diligently checked each case as it came out of the rifle (shooting was done with my M16A4 clone rifle). With the exception of one round, which I might ask about later, I didn't see anything whatsoever out of the ordinary, or see anything that looked like it might be a sign of excess pressure, no bent rims, etc.

Then, I tried to chamber round #91. I was being very careful of course, and noticed that it didn't look like the carrier was quite all the way forward. I gave the forward assist a tap; got nothing. I gave the charging handle a tug... got nothing. I was almost done shooting anyway, and it was cold, and I couldn't feel my hands anyway, so I decided to just pack it up for the day.

Got home, and had to give the charging handle an extra hard tug to get the offending round out of the chamber. I have the round here with me, and I don't see anything out of the ordinary about it. I don't want to try to chamber it again, of course.

I just hand cycled 20 rounds of factory ammo through the rifle, no issues, so I've got to assume its a bad round.

I was using WWC 07 once fired brass, WSR primer, Varget powder, 55gr Hornady FMJ bullet.

Any ideas what my issue may be? All the brass came from factory ammo that was fired through my Robarms XCR, and all of it was full length resized in a Hornady new dimension sizer die.

[Byron]

Try measuring the case at the point it would not chamber and see if that part of the case compares to a factory round. Byron

[John4me05]

DO a double check on your COL and case dimensions... And just out of chance do you think you could have picked up a .222 case when you were picking up your .223s... Maybe the case has a slight bend in it...

Other than this i am out of ideas....

[trickyasafox]

sounds like your case needs a bit of trimming.

[ny32182]

I just pulled the bullet and checked the case length again; It measures 1.751" which is the length to which I trimmed all the cases.

I forgot to measure the OAL again first, but I check each round as I was loading them, and my .223's were coming out very consistent. Also, there was just a very slight bit of cannelure visible; exactly the same as on all the other rounds.

I was going to say, I wonder if it is possible that this case missed going through the sizer somehow, but that is not possible, as it would not have been deprimed any other way.

Should I check the width at any particular point along the length of the case?

[sardog]

Spend about $16 and buy a cartridge gauge from Brownells. Save a lot of headaches.

[PecosRiverM]

While I'm new to reloading. Let me go at this like fixing a computer.

Can you chamber a known good round now? (to rule out anything that might have happened to the rifle).

[<SLV>]

I was thinking maybe the chamber needs a good cleaning.

[jenrob]

Could it be you short stoked that round enough to push the primer out and size the neck but not enough to bump the shoulder. I have caught myself a couple of time trying to short stroke. how about the other 9 rounds you didn't fire how are they. If you try them then you can measure the OAL on them. If they all work try resizing that piece of brass an start a new then try chambering it again. If it chambers then I would definitely say short stroke. Good luck

[John4me05]

Can you chamber a known good round now? (to rule out anything that might have happened to the rifle).

I just hand cycled 20 rounds of factory ammo through the rifle, no issues, so I've got to assume its a bad round

He said he ran through more rounds so it aint the gun...
Take your calipers and lock them (if yours do or jsut watch your screen,dial) at the body size... Slide it from 1 end to the other... Did it stop or did the size change... If so you got a bulge in the case..

[strat81]

Try dropping (not charging from the magazine) the round into the chamber. Now compare it to a quality factory round. How do they both sit?

Measure OAL, measure from rim to shoulder. If you pull the round, measure the bullet length and width. Check for ANY kind of weird marks on the case and bullet. Also check the case width just above the rim. If this was 1x brass from an unknown source, it's possible it was fired in a very loose chamber. Loose-chamber brass can cause problems because since they expand so much, a normal sizing die can't size it down completely. Small base dies generally fix this.

Small base dies are not necessary for the average reloader. Unless you purchase a ton of military brass that was fired in a machine gun, you generally don't need a small base die.

If this was one of your later reloads (late in process), is it possible your sizing die backed out? Use those lock nuts!

Be careful with that forward assist. It might save a soldier's life, but it might jam a rifle up real tight. Use it lightly.

Isn't reloading fun?? :)

[PecosRiverM]

My mistake:uhoh: must have missed that part.:confused:

[ny32182]

I re-seated the bullet and dropped it into the chamber (as well as a factory round). The appear to drop the same distance into the chamber, but I don't really have a way of measuring this?

OAL is on the shorter end of what I had coming out of the sizing die, and these rounds were coming out pretty consistent, if that means anything.

Caliber of the bullet measures right at .224.

The brass came from factory new Q3131 that was fired in my XCR a couple weeks ago. I have sized the rest of the cases from the range session today, and they went through the sizer die easier this time than they did the first time though after being shot in the XCR, if that is helpful information. Would that mean there is a possibility the chamber in the XCR is looser than that in the AR15?

This one was done "late in the process", but the lock ring on the die appears to be tight.

I don't feel like I'm getting real good solid measurements trying to measure various dimensions relating to the neck/shoulder.

[ny32182]

Also, measuring just forward of the case head, it appears to be the same size as the others.

[ny32182]

Also, how exactly does the cartridge guage work?

[John4me05]

It checks size dimensions and lets you know if your COL is too long..

[John4me05]

Pecos i wasnt trying to be mean if it sounded that way

[Nnobby45]

Also, how exactly does the cartridge guage work?

It measures head space from the shoulder to rear (head) of cartridge.

Head space is essentially the distance between the cartridge head and the bolt face when the shoulder is as far forward as it can go.

Drop the case into the guage and the head should be above the lower part but below the higher part. A good quick check. Not a precision guage.

Sizing the case sets the shoulder back so the round will fit in the chamber. The body of the case is also sized to some degree, but the shoulder is CRITICAL.

A micrometer guage like the Precision MIC, will tell you A: your rifles' chamber dimensions. And B: allow you to size your cases a little, but not too much, smaller.

Chambers vary from minimum spec to maximum. There can be problems associated in reloading and firing a case sized to minimum and firing it in a maximum chamber. It can happen once, since all factory ammo is sized to minimum. But you can't keep doing it. That's what makes the precision guage important.

The shoulder actuall gets pushed farther out as you run the case up into the sizer until it makes contact with the die and gets set BACK. Bigger before smaller. If you didn't run it up all the way, that could be your problem---the shoulder not set back (or enough), even if the body was sized enough. Also, do to the elasticity of brass, it's impossible to size each case exactly the same. You can adjust your die down slightly to allow for the stubborn ones.

Also, if you're using different types of brass, the elasticity can change from one brand to another, and some need more sizing (more shoulder set back). A simple drop in headspace guage is a "go, no go" type of arrangement, and tells you if you're within spec.

Too much headspace (too much shoulder set back) can be dangerous by creating too much headspace. Not enough prevents the round from chambering.

RCBS makes a Precision MIC Guage which allows you to fire a round in your chamber and then measure the headspace so you can tell if you have a large or small chamber or somewhere in the middle. Whatever your fired case measures, size your cases a little smaller (.002 to ,003 thousandths) At least that's the formula for bolt action rifles. Some shooters like a little "feel" when they close the bolt.

You need a guage for each caliber, but the guage comes with two Micrometer heads. One for the case, as mentioned, and one to take measurements of the loaded round from that part of the bullet that contacts the lands. Once you know when the bullet contacts the lands, you can record the measurement and load to what ever distance from the lands you want.



With semi-autos, you don't have the caming action of the bolt to deal with tight cases. Ammo must function smoothly.

RCBS, for one, makes SMALL BASE dies to size cases smaller for use in semi-autos.

Hope that helps explain a little about guages.

[SlamFire1]

Spend about $16 and buy a cartridge gauge from Brownells. Save a lot of headaches.

Totally agree. Without gages you don't know to what dimension are sizing your cases to.

Good site to read about case gages. I like the simple Wilson Go-NO Go. Easy to use.

http://www.realguns.com/Commentary/comar46.htm

Sounds to me like you had an case that was not sized sufficiently. You could not close the bolt because your AR does not have the cocking cams nor the leverage of a bolt gun. I have used blocks of wood tapping down the handles of Mausers. (it was better than driving home with a live round in the chamber!) You just can't do that with an AR.

I use small base dies for everything that I can get them in. They are particulary useful for autorifles as the round must drop in the chamber without any resistance.

As for the idea that small base dies "overwork" brass, I have not seen it, and I have taken small base sized 308 brass 22 reloads in a M1a. I know I am up to 10-11 reloads on .223 brass fired in AR's.

You just have to set up the dies with a case gage, so you don't push the shoulder back to the base. Then you will overwork the brass.

[ny32182]

As far as sizing die adjustment, I just set it up according to the Hornady supplied directions. Is it possible that I didn't run this case up all the way into the die? I guess so, but it couldn't have been by much, since the case got de-primed like all the others. If the final part of the stroke is moving the shoulder back though, I guess it wouldn't take much. I will pay very close attention to make sure the handle is going all the way down from now on.

I was under the impression that the last part of the sizing stroke was sizing the portion of the case just forward of the case head, and that having this dimension be in spec was crucial to proper chambering... is that incorrect?

So it is common practice to use a guage to measure the cartridges, and then adjust the die based on that instead of the standard directions?

I've read a lot of conflicting opinions about whether it is necessary to use a small base die for semi-auto ammo.

[P-32]

Could be #91 didn't get sized all the way for some reason. I set my 223 F/L die so there is some "cam over" on the press.

When a reloaded 223 won't chamber in a AR 99% of the time is because there was not enough sizing going on.

I ran into the very same problem, 223 rounds not chambering or very hard extraction when I switched from reloading a 308 M-1 to reloading for a AR for High Power.

I don't use a small base die for either 223 or 308.

[jenrob]

I had thought about saying a small base die but I still think that isn't the problem. If it was only one case. Now if it was all of them but even half I think I would look at my setup. I just did a 270wthby mag and had the same problems then figured it out that I had short stocked the firstt three that I had loaded. I figured it out after 3 cause I load 3 and then fill the mag and cycle to make sure everything works out. I can load AR rounds with out a small base die but know 2 others one has to use small base dies and the other neck sizes and FL every other load.
If I bought a new die everytime I had a problem I would be broke and have so many dies I wouldn't know what to do with them.
1st time reloading and nobody thinks it is a mistake of the operator. God knows I have made my far share. But I think I would resize that same piece load it up and see if it works making sure I did everything right and then if it didn't work I would load up another bunch and try them in 10 round lots. If it worked then I would pitch that piece of brass if not then I would get a small base for your setup.

[Borg]

No one even mentioned or asked if you crimped or not,, Did you?
If the crimp is too heavy using a roll crimp, you get a bulge just below the shoulder, going down the body.
Borg

[ny32182]

So what exactly is "cam over"? I've seen that mentioned in several places now....

I fully admit it could certainly be something I did; in fact it almost has to be, right?

I could try resizing this piece of brass again, but since it already has a live primer in it, I would have to back out the decapper, readjust it later, etc... I might just pitch this piece of brass and make 100% sure the press handle is going all the way down from now on.

[ny32182]

For these loads I did not roll crimp on the seating stroke; I finished with a taper(?) crimp using a Lee FCD.

[FieroCDSP]

It sounds like a short stroke. I've had some Mosin loads that were a bit tough to Chamber due to a short-stroke. Fortunately I can beat the thing with a mallet if need be (never gone that far) and it won't feel it. Years of Communist oppression have made the Mosin Nagant impervious to physical damage.

[jenrob]

CAm over is as the ram goes up as far as it will and on a lot of presses will drop at the very end of the stock. When you setup you die do it without a case. After you adjust the die down against the shell holder you need to turn it in an additional 1/4-1/2 turn now run the ram up again when it touches the shell holder you will feel a very slight resistance at the top of the stock and then it will feel kinda like you pushed the die up for but this where the cam over point is and the ram actually went back down. you do this to make sure that all the slack is out of the press linkage, shell holder to ram and any other play you can think of. Most of the time a 1/4 turn won't do. Once you feel the cam over point you know that you have the die set to FL size. It took me a while to get the concept cause I had heard that you want to be careful not to damage the dies (which is true) but you will be able to tell before you break anything.

[Bullet]

I agree with Nnobby45

Nnobby45
RCBS makes a Precision MIC Guage which allows you to fire a round in your chamber and then measure the headspace so you can tell if you have a large or small chamber or somewhere in the middle. Whatever your fired case measures, size your cases a little smaller (.002 to ,003 thousandths)


As far as the Lee FCD quote from snuffy

snuffy
For bottlenecked rifle, it's a collet crimper that pushes in from the sides of the mouth of the case to force the brass into the bullet.


I would recommend using this for sizing -

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=519525


.

[SlamFire1]

As far as sizing die adjustment, I just set it up according to the Hornady supplied directions.

The set up instructions given with sizing dies assume a lot of things. And seldom following the instructions do you ever get the brass sized to the correct length. If possible you would like to set back the case shoulder about .003” from the fully expanded condition it comes out from the rifle. In no case do you ever want to size it more than .006” as you are likely to get a case head separation on the next firing. Sometimes following the instructions that come with the sizing die you will not be able to even set the shoulder back enough to avoid a crush fit in the rifle chamber. In a few instances I have had to grind material off the bottom of a sizing die to get it to set the case shoulder back enough. Just take the instructions that the factory sends with their dies, and toss out the part that tells you to size to the shellholder. Or shellholder plus a ¼ turn. You will find that such guidance is inaccurate at best, rubbish on the average.

Get a cartridge headspace gage and measure what you are doing.

[ny32182]

CAm over is as the ram goes up as far as it will and on a lot of presses will drop at the very end of the stock. When you setup you die do it without a case. After you adjust the die down against the shell holder you need to turn it in an additional 1/4-1/2 turn now run the ram up again when it touches the shell holder you will feel a very slight resistance at the top of the stock and then it will feel kinda like you pushed the die up for but this where the cam over point is and the ram actually went back down. you do this to make sure that all the slack is out of the press linkage, shell holder to ram and any other play you can think of. Most of the time a 1/4 turn won't do. Once you feel the cam over point you know that you have the die set to FL size. It took me a while to get the concept cause I had heard that you want to be careful not to damage the dies (which is true) but you will be able to tell before you break anything.

Hmm... well, just looking at the motion of the ram as I pull the handle, it keeps going upward throughout the entire stroke, slower and slower toward the end of the stroke, but does not come back down at the end as far as I can tell. When I set up my dies, I just pulled the handle all the way down, and made the die-shellholder contact at that point, and then turned another 1/4 - 1/2 or whatnot. Is that the right procedure?

[ny32182]

The set up instructions given with sizing dies assume a lot of things. And seldom following the instructions do you ever get the brass sized to the correct length. If possible you would like to set back the case shoulder about .003” from the fully expanded condition it comes out from the rifle. In no case do you ever want to size it more than .006” as you are likely to get a case head separation on the next firing. Sometimes following the instructions that come with the sizing die you will not be able to even set the shoulder back enough to avoid a crush fit in the rifle chamber. In a few instances I have had to grind material off the bottom of a sizing die to get it to set the case shoulder back enough. Just take the instructions that the factory sends with their dies, and toss out the part that tells you to size to the shellholder. Or shellholder plus a ¼ turn. You will find that such guidance is inaccurate at best, rubbish on the average.

Get a cartridge headspace gage and measure what you are doing.


Hmm... makes you wonder how anyone ever reloads with a $200 kit, doesn't it? :scrutiny:

So what is the preferred guage here? Are all AR15 5.56 chambers not created equal?

I'm still not sure exactly which dimension we are going to be measuring here.

[snuffy]

Here's a Wilson cartridge gauge on the midway site.

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=456614&t=11082005

I was under the impression that the last part of the sizing stroke was sizing the portion of the case just forward of the case head, and that having this dimension be in spec was crucial to proper chambering... is that incorrect?

That is an accurate description as far as it goes. Also at the same time, the shoulder is being pushed back, all in the last little bit of ram travel. Now, if the die is a bit long, or the shell holder is a bit too thick, and the slop and/or flex in the press linkage doesn't push the brass all-the-way-into the die, we end up with a shell that won't chamber.

That's where the die instructions are lacking. THE SHELL HOLDER AND DIE MUST MAKE SOLID CONTACT WHEN/WHILE THE SHELL IS ACTUALLY BEING SIZED! BUT that procedure can actually set the shoulder back TOO MUCH. You won't know that until you get and use a case gauge.

So it is common practice to use a gauge to measure the cartridges, and then adjust the die based on that instead of the standard directions?

EXACTLY!

Here's what happened to me and a shooting buddy. We were both blindly following die set-up instructions, ya know tight against the shell holder? Me with a Savage .308, him with 3 AR-15's in .223 I was having incipient case head separations on once fired shells. He tied up all three of his AR's with full case head separations that left the front part of the shell in the chambers. I already had a .223 case gauge, so we checked his ammo,(that was left), he was well below the minimum datum line on the gauge.

In my .308, I sent for a Wilson gauge, my loads were also below the low datum line. I ended up having to scrap a lot of .308 brass!

As far as cam-over goes, some presses have a positive stop built into the linkage. It is impossible for them to cam-over. On others, the linkage is what limits maximum ram travel. When the linkage straightens all the way out, it will cam over at the very last bit of ram travel. Lee presses all have that positive stop, so do others. The RCBS rockchucker does not.

[rcmodel]

No one even mentioned or asked if you crimped or not,, Did you?
If the crimp is too heavy using a roll crimp, you get a bulge just below the shoulder, going down the body.Borg+1 Borg
And it can be so tiny you can't even see it, but will lock up an AR-15 tighter then a Bulls Patottie when it tries to chamber it.
Sometimes, you can't even get the bolt back open to get them out.

A Lee collet crimp die shouldn't buckle the shoulder, but you never know. There is always a first time for everything!

Drop-checking every round in an L.E. Wilson case gage is always last on my list of .223 reloading steps.

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j219/rcmodel/KTOG/1224.gif
rcmodel

[Bullet]

I have both a Cartridge Headspace Gage and a RCBS Precision MIC. I like the RCBS Precision MIC. I never use my Cartridge Headspace Gage anymore. The RCBS Precision MIC takes actual measurements of your case. The Cartridge Headspace Gage doesn’t.


RCBS Precision MIC -

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=477756&t=11082005



If you want a case gage Dillon’s are stainless -

http://www.dillonprecision.com/#/content/p/9/pid/23612/catid/3/_223_Dillon_Stainless_Steel_Case_Gage



.

[SlamFire1]

So what is the preferred guage here? Are all AR15 5.56 chambers not created equal?

I recommend Wilson type gages because they are cheap, and they measure true headspace. I have dropped my “No-Go” gages in .223, 6.5X55, 308, 30-06 into Wilson gages and the Go gage corresponds to the lower mark, and the No Go corresponds to the upper mark.

So I am satisfied that Wilson gages are at least calibrated to the same specs as my headspace gages.

Wilson gages only measure headspace, they do not measure “fatness”. I was curious to how I was doing in this characteristic, so I paid Frank White of Compass Lake Engineering to reamer cut me a .223 cartridge headspace gage. This was about $40.00. Frank is one fantastic space gun builder, and I am using a upper barreled and chambered by him. So my chamber is a CLE chamber, and the reamer he used to cut my headspace gage was a CLE reamer, and this gives me the exact same dimensions (within wear and tolerances) of my rifle chamber.

It was interesting to see that some cases sized in “standard” sizing dies were a little fat in the CLE gage, though they would drop in the Wilson and show correct headspace.

As to all AR chambers being equal, obviously they are not. You know this. ;) Military chambers may headspace correctly, but many are cut wider than a Blimp hanger. Another reason to use small base dies to size once fired military brass.

After of course, setting up the die with a cartridge headspace gage.

[mswestfall]

ny32182

Do you have an experienced reloader to look over your shoulder while you work and to check your finished ammo?

I just started brass reloading. I've reloaded shotshells for several years. My neighbor is very experienced at brass reloading. He checks what I do. there is a lot to it. He's corrected errors in my crimps and primer depth.

Now that's a good friend!

You are doing right by asking.

[ny32182]

Looks like I'll be getting a cartridge gauge sometime, though if my rounds are out of spec I'm out of luck (with this die, at least), since the shellholder is already touching it at the top of the stroke; I can't adjust the die down any further.

No, I don't have anyone to double check me.

Thanks for all the info, we'll see how it turns out.

[SlamFire1]

since the shellholder is already touching it at the top of the stroke; I can't adjust the die down any further.

After gaging your sized rounds you can determine what is going on. Let us assume that your rounds are not sized enough and that your die has bottomed out on the shell holder.

Well that is what they make bench grinders for. Take the decapping pin out of the die, turn the grinder on, and using the flat size of the disc, remove a little material off the bottom. Just a little, probably not more than one touch will take off, but make it even.

Assemble the thing, size a round, and see if you took off enough material.

Nothing made by man cannot be ground out of existance!

[Roccobro]

The RCBS Precision MIC takes actual measurements of your case. The Cartridge Headspace Gage doesn’t.
RCBS Precision MIC -
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpag...756&t=11082005


So does this measure tell you when you have a buckled shoulder on a round or just give you exacting measurements over a "go no-go" type setup? It looks to be along the lines or a really nice bullet comparator.

Justin

[Strongbad]

I'm surprised this thread has 39 responses because the problem doesn't seem that difficult. I guess the issue got muddled because of the fact that the gun is an auto. I usually use the term "short stroke" for trying to hand feed a Mauser action, but no matter. As mentioned before this sounds like a very simple case of the case not being resized properly. The shoulder wasn't pushed back far enough in the resizing process so it doesn't want to chamber. I wouldn't grind the die down though unless all the cases are having that problem. If it's just one case and still doesn't chamber after proper resizing, and all the others work, toss the case. Otherwise you'll get the die where it'll resize this case far enough, but then it'll be overworking the other cases. Wouldn't screw with it unless it's doing it to all of them.

[Bullet]

Quote:
The RCBS Precision MIC takes actual measurements of your case. The Cartridge Headspace Gage doesn’t.
RCBS Precision MIC -
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpag...756&t=11082005


Roccobro
So does this measure tell you when you have a buckled shoulder on a round or just give you exacting measurements over a "go no-go" type setup? It looks to be along the lines or a really nice bullet comparator.

Justin



The RCBS Precision MIC does two things. It measures chamber headspace and can be used to determine bullet seating depth.
I use it to measure headspace and to set up the sizing die. It gives you exacting measurements over a "go no-go" type setup.
I didn’t like it for determining bullet seating depth and don’t use that part. But you could use it as a comparator with your own case and bullet.

[hobbeeman]

I can't help but wonder if part of the resizing problem could be from your Hornady die? I have never had the problems with Lee or RCBS that I have had with the .308 Hornady that I recently bought (the shop was out of RCBS). I have had more problems with neck sizing (and sticking!) and with shoulder sizing with this Hornady set than with the others, resulting in a similar problem of good measurements on my calipers, but not chambering into the firearm properly :banghead:

While I have no doubt that purchasing other tools to assist in measuring the finished product will increase the uniformity of the loads, it is curious that I do not have the same problems with the same process for 30.06 or 30-30 using different branded dies than Hornady.

If my reloading shop will allow, I will be trading in my Hornady dies, when his shipment of RCBS arrives.

[jenrob]

Looks like I'll be getting a cartridge gauge sometime, though if my rounds are out of spec I'm out of luck (with this die, at least), since the shellholder is already touching it at the top of the stroke; I can't adjust the die down any further.
If it a die adjustment you might think it is down far as you can get it after you have it against the shell holder the lower the ram (shell holder and screw the die down another 1/4 turn.

[P-32]

Hobbeeman, I use the Hornaday match bushing die to size my 223 and have not had problems other than not turning the die down far enough when I first started. I will agree RCBS dies are very good dies and is what I have the most of.

I still believe the org. poster did not have his dies turned down far enough on the press, or as he says may not have made a complete a stroke on his press.

[ny32182]

I got my case guages today.

Checked some factory ammo... all coming up in spec. Good start.

Checked the 10 remaining rounds from the same loading batch that I didn't fire... and I'll be damned, every single one of them is coming up over max. Looks like I'm not sizing enough. I guess its amazing I made it through 90 rounds without a problem.

I will soon see if it is really going to be possible to turn the die in any more and have it make a difference.

Assuming I can, can I just size the same case over and over, adjusting the die a little each time until that case comes up in spec, then try a couple others, and if they come up in spec, call it good?

[ArchAngelCD]

I adjust the same case/bullet until I get the exact OAL I want, then I test it on a few fresh cases and bullets. (all without powder/primer or a crimp) If you get the same results with the next few test rounds start loading for real. Since you have a gauge now you can drop every round in the gauge to be sure.

[jenrob]

I came up with a way to explain it better. maybe.

It will fell like locking a deadbolt lock when you turn the deadbolt it turn with a little friction right till the end the it feels like it free turns for 1/16 of a turn. This is to say that once your ram touches the die you will feel very slight resistance at the very last then your handle will move another couple of inches easier at the very last. That is the point of cam over.

If you just turn the die down into the shell holder as tight as you can you can feel this action that is where the extra 1/4 turn comes into play.

[jenrob]

ArchAngelCD I'm going to start a new thread and want you to chim in on it. I'm going to call it "Why do you set up your loads this way" dont want to hi-jack this thread.

[ny32182]

Well I turned the die in *another* quarter turn. Now the ram makes contact with the die prior to the end of its stroke, and there is some resistance from that point onward.

I don't think my press is "camming over" at all.

So now I've got the following going on. I'd already resized an primed the 90 twice fired cases, so I just trashed those and started fresh since they were primed and all out of spec.

I resized (tested) a couple more of the once fired cases from the same batch of WWC cases that came out of my XCR, and they sized within spec. Good news.

The brass I started fresh with after that is RORG 92. A few were originally fired in my 10.5 LMT, and those are fine. However, the majority of them were fired in a bad CMMG upper that I eventually had to exchange. In retrospect, I think there was excessive headspace in this upper. I returned it for accuracy issues... Anyhow, using the RORG ammo in that upper, there were relatively light primer strikes (though none light enough to not fire), and about 5% of the rounds, maybe more, the primer would pop right out of the brass as it was ejected. Those are both signs of excessive headspace, right?

What I am seeing with approximately 10% of the RORG brass, from what I can tell so far, is that it is not sizing to within spec, even with my die readjusted. I guess it would take a larger sample of brass from a known good rifle to cement the conclusion, but I think what I am seeing with some of this RORG brass is that it is getting the "fired from a machine gun" loose chamber effect, and I would need a small base die to really tackle these completely? Does that sound plausible?

I will probably just end up trashing the ones that don't resize correctly. The ones that had the primers popped out in the first firing are worse than the ones that did not. Even after going through the sizer, the entire case head will stick out of the cartridge gage when tested.

So now I think my setup is good, but some of my brass is bad.

[ArchAngelCD]

Just go over everything you did again. Start from scratch and reset everything and see if that helps...

[jenrob]

And dig that brass back out of the trash with the primers in them. You can deprime them just don't jam them when you run them into your sizer. You can deprime live primers with care. and still hsve good brass.

As ArchAngelCD said start over and set everthing again if you have the same problem with that brass fired out of that one gun. If you have a large amount of it then I would get a small base die (just for that brass) then go back to you regular die for the rest of the time.

I have a small base die that I use very rarely when I get a large lot of brass that won't chamber after resizing with a standard FL. Then after I resize once with the small base it goes back in it's case and I use the standard FL there after.

[moosehunt]

Well, you've got a case gauge now, but that only measures your ammo based on a basic spec chamber. I think that there is an easier way, one which is more accurate when done correctly. It is rifle specific.

Start somewhere with your sizing die set. Size a case. Now blacken the shoulder, i.e. take a candle (old type that smokes) and put the shoulder in the yellow flame till it's soot covered. Now, carefully chamber this sized case and carefully remove it. What you are looking for is slight marks of soot disturbance on the shoulder (from the chamber shoulder). You keep doing this with minor die adjustments till you get cases that just touch the chamber shoulder as evidenced by a bit of soot disturbance. Now you have found the exact chamber length of your particular rifle in accordance with your sizing. You need to size, i.e. move the shoulder back, at least .002, maybeso .003 more. To do such, lower your sizer die that amount. Since the thread pitch is 14 per inch, that equals .07143 per full turn (approx.). Since you want to go .003, then you need to turn the die further in 4.2% of a turn. If you mark a spot on the die, that would be about .115 inch. Now you are set to size precisely for your chamber. If you find that you cannot screw your die in enough to get here, you have 2 options: shorten your die or shorten your shell holder. Neither should be done on a bench grinder (oh, and NEVER grind on the side of a grinding wheel--it can cause the wheel to explode with pretty potent results). It is probably best to shorten your die. It can be properly done on a lathe, or better on a surface grinder. Granted, this likely will cost you a little. Realistically, unless you have an excessively long chamber, it is unlikely your die is too long--but possible.

[ny32182]

I don't have any grinders, and wouldn't feel good about grinding on dies or shellholders... I really don't think that is an option for me.

I'm pretty sure my setup is good now, and some of my RORG brass is over expanded. I suspected that before I ever tried to resize it, and it now looks true after sizing the RORG. I think this will be confirmed when I do another run of WCC.

"Resetting everything", I don't understand. The sizing die adjustment is the only thing I'm wondering about... what are we resetting?

[jenrob]

Just takeing it back out and putting it back in. Kinda like getting up on the other side of the bed. You do everything the same but hope that it works out.

I agree with moosehunt up til it comes to grinding on a die that is doing what it is supposed to do. I have ground on my FCD to get it past my ejector wire on my progessive cause they don't make it this way, but the do make a short base die. If you have both then you can work the brass that won't chamber after FL and then FL from that point. Or neck size if in a bolt.

[moosehunt]

In recommending not using a bench grinder on a die (if you are certian it is needed--doubtful), I am referring only to the face which needs to be square and flat, which one can't accomplish with a bench grinder. If you just have to do it, use a surafce grinder.