[George Dickel]

I live in Clarksville, TN which is home to the 101st ABN Div.
This is an article from todays newspaper. Some people need to get new lives because the one they have now is pathetic.


Signs celebrating Saddam's sons' deaths vexes some
Company regrets misunderstanding about signals on U.S. Highway 79

By JILL NOELLE CECIL
The Leaf-Chronicle

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

State-hired paving contractors pulled the plug on their own electronic message boards, not realizing their message: "Odai and Qusai dead -- way to go 101st" had offended some.

Eubanks Asphalt Paving and Sealing had been using the signs to alert motorists about lane closings during the last few weeks while workers repaved an 8-mile stretch of Wilma Rudolph Boulevard and Guthrie Highway.

Employees with the Charlotte-based company changed the wording on two signs Friday morning after it was reported Saddam Hussein's sons had been killed in an attack by 101st Airborne troops.

Some motorists were offended to see one of the signs near St. Bethlehem Elementary School. The other sign was near Wal-Mart. Roberta Halgrim of Adams said she worried what kind of message it might send children.

"Our soldiers are not members of a sports team to be rooted for," Halgrim said. "They are not gladiators. They are our protectors, and they are willing to pay the ultimate price for peace, not bragging rights."

Michael Eubanks said the company was trying to show its support for the military community and the 101st Airborne Division.

"It didn't say 'throw a party,'" Eubanks said. "How many Americans have died because of these people? We didn't mean any offense. We were just trying to be patriotic."

David Baron said he understands the desire to show support for the military community at Fort Campbell, but said the sign was in poor taste.

"Granted, these men were responsible for atrocities against the Iraqi people and for attacking U.S. troops, but to place such a sign in front of an elementary school is very upsetting to me," Barron said. "I simply do not see the need to celebrate the loss of any human life. After all, in doing so, we are no better than those we are fighting against."

By Sunday evening, the signs were no longer needed to alert motorists of lane closings and were being packed up, Eubanks said. Officials with the Tennessee Department of Transportation called Monday to request the messages be changed before they realized the signs already were changed.

"Messages should only be job related," said TDOT Operations Specialist J. Wheeler. "I guess they thought they were being supportive of the troops, but it offended some people."

The state hired the Charlotte-based company for $749,679 for the project. The signs belong to the company and were not bought with money from this project.

Eubanks said he is surprised the company's intentions were misunderstood by some.

"We are an all-American company," he said. "I think the 101st does a good job, and we feel sorry for their loved ones who go day to day worrying about the soldiers, not knowing what they are up against."

Jill Noelle Cecil covers city government and can be reached at 245-0262 or by e-mail at jillcecil@theleafchronicle.com.

[TarpleyG]

"Our soldiers are not members of a sports team to be rooted for," Halgrim said. "They are not gladiators. They are our protectors, and they are willing to pay the ultimate price for peace, not bragging rights."
AAAWWW!!! Did they offend you Roberta? Tough %#&!!! Go blow it out your arse, crybaby.

GT

[Carlos Cabeza]

Raise the flag to the 101st ! Good job boys, now come home safe !

[JSolie]

Roberta Halgrim of Adams said she worried what kind of message it might send children.

What kind of message? How about one that two more boogeymen were sent off to their final reward by our fine soldiers? Harumph! :fire:

-- John

[Mike Irwin]

Looks like a private company doing state work.

Don't really see much of a problem here.

"Our soldiers are not members of a sports team to be rooted for..."

Ok....


"They are our protectors, and they are willing to pay the ultimate price for peace, not bragging rights."

Hum.

I guess, then, the history of the individual units, in which they take great pride in their accomplishments in battle, are bragging, and shouldn't be permitted.

Stupid :cuss:

[Walosi]

"What kind of message does this send to our children?" When I was of an age for elementary school (not recently, by decades) it would have been cheered and welcomed by students and faculty. Elementary-age children do need certain protections, but are generally more aware and able to decide on their own than elders are willing to admit.

These people should stop trying to feed their children strained milk. Kids who grow up in a sanitized world lack the judgement and immunities necessary for survival in the real one.

[OEF_VET]

Some people should be required to spend a year living in a place like pre-war Iraq. Maybe some time spent with the likes of Uday or Qusay, Slobodan Milosevic, Pol Pot, Joe Stalin, or Adolph Hitler would change their opinions. Nothing like living under the ever-present threat of rape, torture, or worse to make a person appreciate the freedom they take for granted.

I spent 5 1/2 years with the 101st, and luckily, not everyone in the Clarksville area is as ignorant as this woman. I applaud those workers for showing their support. thankfully, most of the citizenry of Clarksville support the 101st, at least in public. They may do everything they can to rip the soldiers off, but they're happy to have them around. (You can imagine how much the post boosts the economy of the surrounding communities.)

The Clarksville PD even goes so far as to plan their traffic crackdowns around military paydays. Several years ago, in traffic school, an officer from CPD told us this fact. She said that they cracked down around the second week of the month, because the tickets would be due just after the first of the next month. Keep in mind, the soldiers get paid on the 1st and 15th. This is helpful to the soldier at least. This way he doesn't have to worry about not having the money to pay the ticket, thereby getting in more trouble. The rest of the month, you can drive down Ft. Cambpell Boulevard doing 65 mph in a 45mph zone. Trust me, I've done it, with a cop in front of me.

They also like to station themselves within sight of several of the popular watering holes, so they can arrest soldiers walking out of the bars. If a GI so much as raises his voice to yell to a friend, the cops swoop down on him on horseback, like buzzards going after roadkill. Nevermind the obvious civilian who is getting ready to drive drunk, they go after the GI who has a Designated Driver. The truly messed up part of it is that most of CPD is ex-military.

Then there are the businesses on Ft. Campbell Boulevard. The pawn shops, car dealers, check cashers, etc. These people would sell their mothers souls if they thought a GI would pay enough. Then their are the landlords who charge way too much to young GI's fresh out of Basic and AIT. They stick a soldier in a crappy, run-down place that isn't fit for rats, and then won't let them out of their leases if they get deployed. The car dealers are probably the worst though. Most of the car salesmen are ex-GI's, retirees and such, who like nothing more than to rip off soldiers. These same former-GI's are generally the same guys who as NCO's were counseling their Privates about shady car dealers. As soon as they take off their uniforms and get that job, they forget all about what they told their soldiers, all in the name of making a buck.

Of course, this happens in every military town. It's just a fact of military life. Young people will put their lives on the line, so that they can be ripped off and bad-mouthed back home.

Frank

[blue86buick]

it's a big ole crock of steamy monkey poo if you ask me.

[einnor1040]

I saw that sign. I didn't have a problem with it.

[sturmruger]

Thin skin is an understatement

[MJRW]

Sign doesn't bother me. But it neither bothers me nor surprises me that someone is offended. I don't even see it as unreasonable. They "celebrate" someone's death, regardless of how horrible they were, and you expect someone not to be offended? Sounds like a case of thin skin vs short sight to me.

[Guy B. Meredith]

Don't know about the sign wording, but this "sending messages" stuff has really become a hackneyed cliche. (Is that double speak?)

[brownie0486]

I don't know about the rest of the folks on the forum but I did do a little dance and had a big Sh$t eating grin on my face when I heard the reports.

I celebrated their death vehemently with others.

Three cheers for the 101st, job well done boys and girls.

As to the namby pamby liberal thinkers who believe the children should not see such celebration. I wonder if they queried the children for their thoughts and reiterated them or whether they were speaking for them as surrogates in the absence of any real thought process by the children.

War is hell, the nambys need to get a grip on reality.

Semper Fi to all the jarheads out there as well, and lets not forget the Navy and Air Force folks who are doing their best to bring about the death of Saddam the butcher as well.

Death to my enemies!!!!!!!!

Brownie

[Ol' Badger]

I'm going to hire a Sky Writer when they anounce we Bagged Dad!

:neener:

[OEF_VET]

MJRW,

Why shouldn't we be glad that two more sociopaths are removed from the gene pool? I say YAY!, those two idiots are gone. Now maybe things may get just a tad calmer and (dare I hope?) safer for my friends sitting in Baghdad and Mosul. If some dingbat takes offense to my attitude of joy at their passing, tough luck, deal with it lady, get some freakin' counseling. Maybe she can find some like-minded therapist and they can sit around discussing how Uday and Qusay weren't really that bad. They were just brought up with too much TV and not enough motherly love.

Frank

Edited to remove parts that were typed before brain was put in gear.

[MJRW]

OEF, read my post. Address it. Don't point your question at me because I'm the first person who isn't upset that someone is upset when in fact your question has nothing to do with what I posted. However, I will answer your post as though it addressed something I said.

Frankly, I would have much rather these two be captured. Am I mourning them? Hell no. Are they better off dead than still out there and alive? Absolutely. But why is anyone surprised that someone is offended by this? Seriously. WHY DOES THIS SURPRISE ANYONE? This is where the short sightedness comes in. This story should have been predicted as soon as the sign was up.

But tell me, OEF, at what point did I say we should be understanding of people who mourned the death of Hitler? Where did I even come close to that? Who is even saying that anyone is upset by their death? Who at any point said that Saddam and Sons weren't that bad?

[OEF_VET]

MJRW,

My post wasn't meant as a personal attack on you. I fully understand your point. If I'm not mistaken, your point was that it shouldn't be surprised that in this day and age, somebody would get offended, and that they are allowed to offended. I didn't mean to imply that I believed you were offended by celebrating their deaths. If you took my post that way, I sincerely apologize. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Frank

P.S. I edited my earlier post to reflect what I meant to say had my brain been engaged before I put my fingers into motion.

[Duncan Idaho]

What brownie0486 said!

[Duncan Idaho]

But why is anyone surprised that someone is offended by this?I'm not surprised in the least. I've been saying for years and years that this country is fairly well crawling with America- hating rats.

I am a tiny bit surprised that they had the temerity to stick their little rodent heads up though... ;) :D

[444]

The message it sends to the kids in that school is that their dads are doing a great job, their dads are appreciated by the people, their dads are considered heros. It might even tell the kids who lost their dads in the conflict that they didn't die in vain; their unit carried on and attained their objective. It might tell them that all the time they had to spend growing up with their dad deployed overseas is worth it. It might tell them that bad people are punished and that our country has made it a goal to make the world a better place to live and their dad is a part of it. It might tell them that there are things worth fighting for, and if nessessary, dying for. It might tell them that random, unfocused violence is wrong but sometimes violence is the only solution to a problem. It might tell them that because of the actions of their dads and the 101st the world is now a safer place for them to live in. It might tell them that the kids of Iraq now have hope for a better life.

It is high time we stoped bowing down to people like this. More people need to grow a backbone. Listen to those upset about it and tell them, thank you, but I disagree and they are my signs. If you don't like it, buy your own signs.

[Duncan Idaho]

And what 444 said!!!

That was absolutely beautiful!!!

http://burns.thefinaldimension.org/contrib/navigator/usa.gif

[Lictalon]

You know, I was taught in school (Okay, actually, I was never taught anything in school...safer to say that while the teacher was droning on, I read in some book somewhere) that the primary reason that America lost in Vietnam was because America didn't treat it as a war...it was a police action, curbing communism, or some crap like that.

Victories in war should be celebrated...in song, movies, on stage, and in art. Come on, what would this woman have said about the Marines raising the flag on Iwo Jima? :cuss:

Frankly, the sooner we can get some singer to write a song about it, the better. I heard at work, and I stood up and danced in the aisles...and so did the boss.

We're in a war...celebrate the victories, mourn the defeats...right now, celebrate!

[Carlos Cabeza]

Damn 444, that post really gave me a sense of gratitude for the men and women of our armed forces. Thank You !

For those that would be offended by such a display of pride.................... **** THEM !

[Legionnaire]

Thanks 101st (and 444)! No, I don't have skin this thin. Nor, thankfully, do my kids.

I don't understand the mentality that gets offended by somebody saying "The bad are dead at the hands of the good. Way to go, good."

I'm sorry there is evil in the world. I'm sorry that it means that innocent people often suffer, and that good people need to get involved to stay the hand of evil. I'm sorry that people have to die. But I'm not sorry that evil people are stopped.

I say again, thanks 101st.

[critter]

444, as I was trying to conjure up an appropriate reply, I read your post. you said it much better than I could! RIGHT ON and thank you sir! A well written and most appropriate reply!

[Chugach]

George, can you find us an e-mail address where we can contact the 101st directly and give them our thanks?

David

[HankB]

I think you're missing the point - many on the Looney Left have a hatred for GWB that's so pervasive, it rules their whole psyche. The deaths of Odai and Qusay represent a victory for Bush, and . . . they can't stand it.

The only thing worse than a Bush-led war is a Bush-led victory.

To borrow (OK, rip off) an expression I saw elsewhere, if Dubya announced a miracle drug that was a 100% effective cure for cancer today, and tomorrow it was verified by ALL the major medical schools, by the weekend these same liberal wackos would be denouncing the miracle cancer cure as a plot by Bush to enrich his rich white buddies in the drug companies.

[dhoomonyou]

Just a sign of our "POLITICALLY CORRECT" society.
They probably would have not let us cheer the end of WW2, or the death of Hitler.
I say raise the flag and raise a beer to our troops.
and may our enemies BURN.

[einnor1040]

The message it sends to the kids in that school is that their dads are doing a great job, their dads are appreciated by the people, their dads are considered heros. It might even tell the kids who lost their dads in the conflict that they didn't die in vain; their unit carried on and attained their objective. It might tell them that all the time they had to spend growing up with their dad deployed overseas is worth it. It might tell them that bad people are punished and that our country has made it a goal to make the world a better place to live and their dad is a part of it. It might tell them that there are things worth fighting for, and if nessessary, dying for. It might tell them that random, unfocused violence is wrong but sometimes violence is the only solution to a problem. It might tell them that because of the actions of their dads and the 101st the world is now a safer place for them to live in. It might tell them that the kids of Iraq now have hope for a better life.

You hit it on the head

[OEF_VET]

Chugach:

Taken from the 101st ABN DIV (AASLT) website:

comments concerning the 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault) please contact the Division Public Affairs Office
The e-mail address is: AFZB-PO@campbell.army.mil

If anyone would like to show their support directly to a unit of the 101st, I've included the address of my former Battalion Commander, currently in Mosul, Iraq.

LTC Randall T. Barnes
HSB / 3-320 FA
Unit #96088
APO AE 09325-6088

Just tell LTC Barnes that you got the address from SGT Maschhoff. I sent him a CARE package awhile back for the guys ($40 worth of hard candy). He was a tad nervous about opening it, because he'd seen what I'd sent one of my friends previously. (Let's just say that those kind of pics of women aren't allowed in Arab countries.) Maybe he'll realize I'm not as much of a pervert as the rumours say I am. :D

Frank

[4v50 Gary]

Our men & women need to know they have our support here at home. Nothing is worse than being out "there" and knowing home isn't supporting you.

[Tim Burke]

"Messages should only be job related," said TDOT Operations Specialist J. Wheeler. "I guess they thought they were being supportive of the troops, but it offended some people." I'm sure it did offend some people, but I bet none of the offended were the troops they were trying to support.

[ed dixon]

Gee, terminating a couple of rapists, torturers and murderers is a bad thing? I think it's a perfect reason for celebration and congratulation. What's next, showing proper respect and decorum for the poor cancer cells a surgeon cuts out of a body? What a dope.

[Chugach]

Just talked to Mike Eubank at his plant in Charlotte, Tennessee and let him know that there were a bunch of folks here that thought he'd done a good thing.

I've sent him an e-mail with our address so he can find this thread...

OEF_VET, thanks for the info!

[Standing Wolf]

Roberta Halgrim of Adams said she worried what kind of message it might send children.

It's not the children we need to worry about, but Roberta.

[Moparmike]

Think of the chhiiilllldddddreeeeennnnnnn!!!!Why did you think we posted it? People fighting on foriegn land is nothing to be ashamed of. Even if you think its for an unjust purpose, the least you can do is be supportive of those that are ready to put their life on the line whenever and whereever they are told for you to express your opinion that they shouldnt be supported. We need to teach the children that supporting troops isnt supporting a just or unjust cause.

That rant to what's her name over, I want to say "Go 101!" and congratulate them on a job well done.

[NapAttack]

I just wish, just once, that one of these *****s (sorry, can't think of a bad enough word) would say something like that to my face.

444, eloquent.

[MicroBalrog]

As an Israeli I must say: Go 101'st!

[Majic]

Maybe if the sign had a big yellow smiley face on it with the caption "2 DOWN AND 1 TO GO" and the 101'st emblem meet Roberta's approvement, but then again she might not ever get the meaning.

[Legionnaire]

I like it!

101st!! 2 down, 1 to go :) Bagdad!

[280PLUS]

(playing devils advocate here)

lets not forget theres more than a few moms involved here too!

:evil:

why i think i'll send those folkies a care package myself

what do they REALLY want over there??

besides porn

:rolleyes:

:D

[OEF_VET]

280PLUS,

Use your imagination. If you were stuck in the worst Hell-hole you can imagine, with little access to the usual amenities of life, what would you want? Keep in mind, the address is for the Battalion Commander; and anything you send will be distributed amongst the soldiers of the unit. LTC Barnes is a good guy, so he won't just squander it all away from himself. Just put a note in the package saying it's for the troops and he'll give it to them. I'll put a short list of some items below.

Frank


Things the GI's might want:

Reading material (old paperbacks, magazines, etc. - basically any topic will find an interest group, but keep in mind it's an all male unit, ergo, 'Sixteen' or 'Cosmo' won't be as popular as 'Car and Driver' or -dare you part with it- 'SWAT')

Powered Drinks - Gatorade, pre-sweetened Kool-Aid, Lemonade, etc.

Ramen Noodles

Candy (Chocolate doesn't hold up too well to desert heat)

Baby Wipes - indispensible in the heat

Cookies - homemade or store bought, it don't matter

Chewing gum - those big multipacks are good for the BN CDR to distribute, and they're cheap

Disposable cameras are popular if anyone has the ability to get hold of a bunch real cheap

Boardgames such as Monopoly, RISK, etc.

DVD's or VHS tapes - the units generally have access to video equipment, so the soldiers can do something to relax

Just use some common sense, send stuff you think soldiers in a war zone will like, and will hold up during shipping. The post office has a few rules about what may or may not be shipped, such as porn or alcohol, so you may want to check that out if anything seems iffy.

One more thing -

On behalf of the soldiers in 3rd Bn, 320th Field Artillery, thanks in advance for your support.

[BigG]

Feelings - whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa Feelings! :barf:

[Gaiudo]

All I have to say is:

Proverbs 29:6 "The Righteous sings and rejoices when the evil man is ensnared"

Proverbs 28:28 "When the wicked perish, the righteous increase"

Go 101st!! Dance in the aisles!! 2 down, 1 to go!

Gaiudo

[George Dickel]

I finally got the time to get an e-mail address. This is for the Public Information Office at Fort Campbell.

afzb-po@campbell.army.mil

[faustulus]

So when people in other nations celebrated the 3,000 killed in 9/11 no one here was offended?

Gaiudo,
I seem to remember something from Sunday school about throwing rocks and sin.

[Duncan Idaho]

So when people in other nations celebrated the 3,000 killed in 9/11 no one here was offended?Psssst...those 3,000 folks were on our side. Just so you know. :rolleyes: :fire: :cuss: :scrutiny: :uhoh: :barf:

[winstonsmith]

I remember hearing about Clintons air war on Iraq (war's ok if you're president is a demorat, but not a republican) and thinking GOOD. It should be stated that I was in 4th grade at this point.

GO 101st!!

[fallingblock]

Now twist the facts around to portray those 3,000 as rapists, murderers and torturers:scrutiny:

When unquestionably evil men die, it is a cause to celebrate....

When 3,000 innocents are murdered, it's time to get even:fire:

[Jake T. Snake]

I also live in Clarksville and and saw the signs when they were running. I thought it was cool of them to put that up. Go 101.....

[OF]

So when people in other nations celebrated the 3,000 killed in 9/11 no one here was offended?Did I just read that right? Palestinians celebrating the deaths of 3000 innocent people at work is somehow equivalent to an American road crew celebrating the death of those two barbarian scumbag tyrants? Are you out of your mind? :barf:

- Gabe

[Gaiudo]

I seem to remember something from Sunday school about throwing rocks and sin.

I am really glad that you had the opportunity to go to church as a child, but just in case your Sunday school memory doesn't serve you quite well enough, maybe a bit of a Bible (history?) lesson is due.

In John 8:2, the context of the stone throwing was when a bunch of Pharisees were trying to trap Jesus to his death by bringing in an adulterous woman. The Jewish law demanded the execution of this woman, but Rome had removed capital jurisdiction from Jewish courts, except for temple violations. Thus the Jewish leaders test whether Jesus will reject the law, compromising his patriotic Jewish following, or reject Roman rule, which will allow them to accuse him to the Romans.

Rather than being baited by their trap, he turned the tables by showing them the extent of their own sins, who, even as "Law-Keepers," had such an inherent sinfulness that they had no basis to judge this woman. Rather, they were to leave her judgment to God. It is clear from Jesus’ attitude to the woman that he was not condoning adultery. This combination of thoroughgoing justice and deep compassion is not easy to achieve. What a wonderful testemony to God's grace that a woman who was justly deserving of punishment was forgiven wholly and impartially! Again, that is for God to decide.

On the other hand, however, we as the vice-regents of this world have a responsibilty to see justice and goodness established. As for using Biblical basis for condoning the death of the evil man; the protection of the weak, the widow, and the orphan; the pursuit of justice; the rejoicing over the establishment of order and goodness: there are hundreds of passages dealing with these. I will defer to only these two:

Psalm 82:3 - Vindicate the weak and fatherless; Do justice to the afflicted and destitute.

Psalm 94:23 - He has brought back their wickedness upon them and will destroy them in their evil.

Personally, I would say that the 101 has been particularly useful in the establishment of justice on the earth and the vindication of righteousness in this particular month.

As a last note, those were interesting comments from someone who has a Latin quote under his name stating "Kill them all, God will recognize his own."

Yes, I believe that God did recognize his own in this case. And no, there is no comparison between rejoicing in the death of evil men and the barbarous cries for innocent blood. Personally, the comparison does injustice to the cause and to those who represent it. Just my 2 cents.

Gaiudo

[faustulus]

Gaiudo,
If you know the quote I will assume you know the story behind it and I will only say that it is a testiment to the evil that can be perpetuated in God's name. It is all the more tragic because the monk truely believed what he was saying.
Oddly enough I have had a bit of study in world religions.
Jesus' religion is based on man's bond with his fellow man. Time and again the Christ admonishes man not to judge and to love even those who hate him. Quoting scripture is all well and good and the Pharisees you speak of were some of the best at it. However when it came to living under the law they had just as hard a time as others.
Did you ever wonder where the man the woman was sleeping with was? Under the law his life should have been forfiet as well.

Psssst...those 3,000 folks were on our side. Just so you know.
I didn't know them any better than I did Saddam's sons.


When unquestionably evil men die, it is a cause to celebrate
I will not celebrate any man's death. I am sorry if you cannot understand.

Did I just read that right? Palestinians celebrating the deaths of 3000 innocent people at work is somehow equivalent to an American road crew celebrating the death of those two barbarian scumbag tyrants? Are you out of your mind?
I am pointing out that some saw the people in the 9/11 attacks as supporting a system which killed them and their people. That is their perspective, it isn't wrong or right just different from ours. Either way it does not help anything or anyone to celebrate the death of anyone. By doing so we are no different from the people who celebrated the 9/11 attacks. They saw the attacks as a blow against a country who was trying to destroy their life and religion. The people in that building were supporting that government, were in fact that government (at least if 'we the people' still means anything.) The world does not always share our point of view. I am just asking we be aware of that.

[Duncan Idaho]

The world does not always share our point of view.Wow! Really? I am just asking we be aware of that.Gee! Thank you so much! :rolleyes:

[brownie0486]

Having seen and experienced combat [ and as a result, death of friends; Allies, and enemies alike] in 1970 in the RVN, I always rejoiced at the enemies demise by our hands or that of our allies hands in that far off land.

I believe there is a heaven, but until we get there we live in hell.

All fair in love and war. When it's kill or be killed we had a saying that holds true today as much as it did then.

"If it's them or me, it has to be them"

Another I like was " Preemptive engagement"

Those who would not rejoice at anothers death at anytime should experience their enemies first hand, up close and personal, and know what it is like to kill or be killed. Perspectives change based on your experiences.

An enemy is an enemy who will kill you if they have the chance. Be preemptive in your actions and you stand a better chance of living.

Brownie

[Duncan Idaho]

Brownie,

You must have been mistaken. Those folks weren't trying to kill you and yours, they were just shooting at you to let you know that they had a different point of view. Right faustulus?

[ed dixon]

I am pointing out that some saw the people in the 9/11 attacks as supporting a system which killed them and their people. That is their perspective, it isn't wrong or right just different from ours. Either way it does not help anything or anyone to celebrate the death of anyone. By doing so we are no different from the people who celebrated the 9/11 attacks.

Yeah, that's what they saw. I see backward, jealous, superstitious goons that haven't gotten around to creating much and shift the burden of their stasis and ignorance to innocents. Sure, nobody's right or wrong. Savagery is attenuated by cultural or religious perspective. Maybe if you'd heard the screams of their victims you could've let them know this, so they wouldn't carry on so.

[NapAttack]

I didn't know them any better than I did Saddam's sons. Yes you did, these 3,000 people were Americans who shared your way of life and belief system (not religion, belief in freedom and individuality). They participated in the same free enterprise system you do. I will not celebrate any man's death. I am sorry if you cannot understand. No I cannot understand and never will. I will always celebrate the defeat of evil and the death of evil men. I am pointing out that some saw the people in the 9/11 attacks as supporting a system which killed them and their people. That is their perspective, it isn't wrong or right just different from ours. Yes, it is most definitely wrong. It is wrong under any system of beliefs or religion to murder (I used murder very specifically) innocent people. I have never seen a religion which advocates the murder of innocent people and if such a religion exists it should be wiped from the face of the earth.

[Intune]

It all depends on which side you're rooting for.

[Quartus]

I'm going to hire a Sky Writer when they anounce we Bagged Dad!


Hmmm, yeah, I like that. Something like,


WAY TO GO 101st! THE HEAD BUTCHER IS DEAD!

And, oh, Roberta, GET A CLUE!





:D




Oh, yea, Intude, you're right. Both sides are the same - there's no difference, so the only thing that matters is which side you happen to favor.

[Gaiudo]

Faustulus,

I do know the quote, and no one is condoning the actions of a religious zealot who slaughtered innocent people. Funny, but that seems kinda relevant here; I guess that monk was just "approaching it from his point of view" and "really believed in what he was doing," "in the name of God" Yeah, the slaughter of all those innocent people.... such a tragedy. Refresh my memory, were there 3,000...?

Thanks for the insight into your views of Christianity and Jesus' religion. I believe that you're perspective is a bit off, however, about the focus of Christianity. It would appear that the holistic message of the Bible is more on Man's relationship with God than with man's relationship with man. The entire structure of the Bible, both Old and New Testament, is focused on God's sincere desire to reestablish true communion (i.e., "Life, and Life Abundant," Gospel of John 10:10b ) with a lost and sinful race. I would love to talk to you more about it sometime, especially since you have some education in it, however, this is probably neither the time or the place.

I think it does bear some pertinance on this subject, however, because even though the message of the Bible is man getting back into a right condition with God, it also teaches that the effects of evil still have their just result, and one aspect of the Right is justice. Especially men who have time and again personally been involved in the deaths of countless innocent people.

Did any of those 3,000 have a personal, individual involvement in the deaths of thousands? As far as I can tell, they were chosen randomly to make a point, with no regard as to either their innocence or guilt. It seems to me to be vastly unparallel subjects.

As for the statement:

I didn't know them any better than I did Saddam's sons.

1) Your "knowledge" that the two sons were personally evil, repugnant, assassinating scum should seem to combat against your "knowledge" that there were 3,000 innocent people killed on 9/11

2) A simple sence of patriotism "should" seem to give you a link of commonality, or even close desire for common welfare and safety, which I would hope my fellow citizens would feel for me. Even though I have spent, off and on, 8 years in Brazil, there is something about an American, whether from NY or Texas, the Star Spangled Banner as Old Glory waves proudly, the sight of a GI's sweaty brow, or Southern Fried Chicken which stirs something too deeply to write on an internet forum and do in any justice whatsoever. If you do not experience that, than not only do I feel badly that you have never had that experience, but I am fearful for a country where its citizens don't have a desire to sweat and sacrife for one's own land and people.

As for the rest of you, the support and love which you demonstrate at times like this makes me proud to have the honor of being able to write my name besides you as an American.

Gaiudo

[six 4 sure]

When did kids start going to school in July?

Way to go 101st.

six

[faustulus]

Be preemptive in your actions and you stand a better chance of living.
There are worse things than death.

I see backward, jealous, superstitious goons that haven't gotten around to creating much and shift the burden of their stasis and ignorance to innocents.
And they see cold oppressive state which imposes its will on other nations populated by heathens set to destroy their way of life and religion.

Yes, it is most definitely wrong. It is wrong under any system of beliefs or religion to murder (I used murder very specifically) innocent people.
So you will condeme any American attacks which result in the death of innocents? I can think of several in the recent war in Iraq.

It would appear that the holistic message of the Bible is more on Man's relationship with God than with man's relationship with man.
I don't disagree but I think we can both agree that Jesus spent more time discussing how we should behave toward our fellow man than he did about the kingdom of heaven. It seems to me our relationship with God is reflected in our relationship with man.

it also teaches that the effects of evil still have their just result, and one aspect of the Right is justice
Yes and it also teaches that Justice would be for us to be damned to hell and only through mercy are we saved. Hence salvation cannot be obtained through actions.

I didn't know them any better than I did Saddam's sons.
All are dead and I see only tragedy. I cannot believe in a God who would have me rejoice at anyone's misfortune nor even the death of evil men. The commandment is love them that hate you.

Duncan Idaho
You must have been mistaken. Those folks weren't trying to kill you and yours, they were just shooting at you to let you know that they had a different point of view. Right faustulus?
No Duncan, they were saying that 'this is a civil war and you have no business here.' Apparently we eventually got the message.

[Duncan Idaho]

There are worse things than death.I should think that being unable to identify evil would be among those things worse than death.

There, but for the grace of God, go I.And they see cold oppressive state which imposes its will on other nations populated by heathens set to destroy their way of life and religion.Only because - in their benighted ignorance - they tend to listen to people with a viewpoint similar to your own.

And by the way, when a people have come to believe that senseless suicide, and the purposeful slaughter of innocents are in fact a precious sacrament that makes them worthy of paradise, they have ceased to have what might be called a "way of life and religion".

People that have reverted to that sort of thing can correctly be said to have adopted a way of death, and irreligion. Or, to put it more succintly, to have chosen the way of a death-cult.

And since you care so much about their beliefs, then why not offer to give them that which they want most? Surely our, how did you put it? Our "cold oppressive state" can afford to give the death-cult nuts a liberal helping of the senseless death that they worship. Yes?

[ravinraven]

Good morning!

Way back up this thread, Brownie spoke an oxymoron. He mentioned "liberal thinkers." No such animal.

There are Liberal schemers. They are very high IQ types like Hitlary, Slickster, Lenin, Chap-Of-Quick-Dick Kennedy and Jim Carvill to name a few. They are beyond thinking. They speak to the low IQ side of humanity where the anti-American rats live and work busily taking little bites out of liberty. The schemers do not believe anything they themselves are saying but they know the dummies do. They build their power by appealing to these types and stealing their votes.

People like the babe who complained about that glorious moment our troops had are not vicious. They are too stupid to know what they are doing.

Critter's signature line says it best. "Liberals do not accept facts, nor understand logic."

raving raven

[MicroBalrog]

"Liberals do not accept facts, nor understand logic."

Oh, re-eallly? :fire:

MicroBalrog,

Pro-gun liberal, and proud of it, too!

[Moparmike]

Micro, you as well as I know that every time someone says that its going to be a point of contention between you and the person who said a bad thing about liberals. I personally loathe and have large amounts of disdain for most liberals, because most of the liberals I have the misfortune of meeting couldnt logically debate their way out of a wet paper bag. For example, I submit to you the example of the current issue before my city council: A smoking ban in any place with employees, any bar, and any restaurant. While that might look good on the surface, it is unconstitutional as the government (any government) has no business dictating what legal activities take place within the bounds of private property. This is but one example of the people I have issues with.

That said, there are some people that label themselves "Liberal" that are quite capable of using logic. The trouble is that most of the ones we meet today completely fit the blanket statements that most of us use.

I apologize for the group for its actions against Micro.

[MicroBalrog]

While that might look good on the surface

To whom? To a victim of lobotomy, perhaps.

Also note my signature.:evil:

[MicroBalrog]

Oh, and you don't need to apologize. I don't think that you're responsible for what those other users said.:)

[ex-REPUBLICAN Sarah Brady mode]

NOOO!!! It's Bill Gates' fault! Computers flame people! Microsoft should apologize to me NOW! Do it for the Chiiilreeeen [/ex-REPUBLICAN Sarah Brady mode]

[Moparmike]

The trouble with saying that they had a lobotomy is that I dont belive that there was anything to lobotomize. Last I saw, there was a "Space for Rent" sign in there. Oddly enough, I thought I heard the ocean as well...:scrutiny:

Anyway, lets get back to the topic at hand so we dont get this thread locked.

This pretty much sums up how I feel about supporting troops:
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?postid=410721

Last I heard, that quote was accurate. It still sounds cool, anyway. It was my first PaintShopPro-ing (I have since converted to photoshop).

[ed dixon]

And they see cold oppressive state which imposes its will on other nations populated by heathens set to destroy their way of life and religion.

Point granted. As long as you'll also grant that they're wrong, stupid, and immoral. How much compassion am I supposed to have for someone tripping on LSD who kills my daughter because he thought she was the devil? Shouldn't I see his scene, his side, how he came to that point in his life? Yup, at the exact moment his lights go out when the switch gets pulled. They hate us. That's established. I think it's time to hate them back and see how they like it. You're right, those people in the Towers did represent America. They happen to have some friends and relatives in the 101st, the Rangers, the carriers, the bases, etc., etc. If it's been agreed to disagree, then let's finish it on their terms. Fair enough?

[faustulus]

I think it's time to hate them back and see how they like it.
I am a Christian. According to my religion I am to love those who hate me. It isn't always easy but it is what I believe to be right.

Other than that we can just disagree, doesn't mean we can't be friends right? It is nice to hear someone who disagrees but is civil about it. Good to hear your opinion Dixon.

When we say 'liberal' do we mean European liberal or American Liberal?

Duncan, :rolleyes:
the purposeful slaughter of innocents
Aug. 6


And since you care so much about their beliefs, then why not offer to give them that which they want most?
I care about my beliefs and my beliefs warn me not to pass judgement on others.
I am not saying the Palestians are right or wrong. I am just saying that we get upset when they cheer the death of our countrymen, yet we don't see anything wrong when we cheer the death of people they consider brothers. Sometimes killing is necissary, but reveling in the death of anyone is, in my opinion, morally wrong. If we say we don't like their actions then we shouldn't act like them. We have to take 'the high road.'

[Duncan Idaho]

faustulus If we say we don't like their actions then we shouldn't act like them.I don't act like them. I would never puposefully take an innocent human life.

I will on the other hand, make it plain to those that do take innocent human life, that I will:

do my level best to kill them before they accomplish their stated purpose;

having failed that, to hunt them to the ends of the Earth, and do my level best to see that they are killed;

and to make it plain, both to the killers, and to the souless wretches that empathize with the killers and their spawn, that I aim to keep my word.

And yes, I will revel in their deaths.


You are welcome to continue to feel that it is just fine for them to murder your fellow countrymen, and that all is forgiven.

In our case, that would mean that we can't be friends.

[faustulus]

In our case, that would mean that we can't be friends.
For that I am sorry. You are the first person I have encountered on this forum who feels this way. I promise you our difference in opinion does not affect my respect of you as a person.

[Duncan Idaho]

I promise you our difference in opinion does not affect my respect of you as a person.Duly noted.

[jimpeel]

"Our soldiers are not members of a sports team to be rooted for..."Neither are the members of Al Qaeda but I seem to remember scenes of Palestinians dancing in the streets on 9-11-01.

Roberta, you ignorant slut ...

[brownie0486]

faustulus states: "According to my religion I am to love those who hate me"

Would that be like " turn the other cheek"?

I must not be that much of a christian then, because whenever someone has attempted to bloody myself or associates I've always been the type to return it in kind, and then some, usually.

Sorta like "eye for an eye" to my thinking. Hey thats pretty good, I must be christian afterall. Instead of turning the other cheek I'll take the eye for an eye everytime.

Brownie

[faustulus]

Would that be like " turn the other cheek"?
Same sermon a couple of verses later.

Would be like : Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you.

I don't always do what I believe to be right, but I try. I just feel it is wrong to take joy from the death of a fellow human being, no matter how bad his actions are. It is sad that we could not help one another, it is sad that we could not resolve our differences without violence. Now everyone loses and I don't think that is cause for celebration. The death of two people who had nothing to do with the 9/11 attacks didn't bring back those 3,000 sons, daughters, husbands and wives. Killing Osama bin Laden will not bring them back either. Saddam's sons' deaths didn't resurect the fine men and women killed in the Iraqi desert.