[The_Shootist]

I was looking through a couple of catalogues to satisfy my curiousity and was surprised to make the following comparisions (both from 4" bbl)

From Remingtons Catalogue:

Brand Calibre Wt (grs) FPS (muzzle) Ft/Lbs (muzzle)

Golden Sabre .357 125 1220 413
" " 9mm+P 124 1180 384


The difference between the GS .357/9mm rounds are negligible. Why wouldn't you choose 9mm over the .357 if it gave you a standard cap advantage in
similiar sized weapons? I can maybe see using the GS in a smaller package like
an SP 101 for controllability, but even then I'd likely go to someting like Buffalo Bore's FBI load and get a heavier bullet for my troubles. But in similair size larger guns G19 vs say a M19 or M686) it lookes like the .357 GS would be a dubious choice.

Not so with say the Winchester Silvertip:


Silvertip .357 148 1290 535


....delivering a more traditional .357 wallop - its what I carry in my 686+ when I use it for CCW use.

Or was the WHOLE IDEA behind the .357 GS design to aim for the smaller revolver market?

[Rexster]

While Remington does not make a big deal of promoting it as such, it has long been well-known that their .357 Golden Saber is a medium-velocity load, and therefore gentle to shoot in smaller or lighter .357 revolvers. The Silvertip is also a fairly mild load, though not as mild as the GS. A Federal 125-grain full-velocity load will remind anyone just how mild the Remington GS and Winchester STHP are! Buffalo Bore is, of course, up there, too.

[spwenger]

...the Golden Saber was designed in the aftermath of the 1986 FBI fiasco in Dade County (Miami), Florida. The traditional 125 gr. .357 Magnum SJHP, which is still viewed by many as the gold standard in handgun ammunition performance, is not a particularly deep-penetrating load; penetration is limited by its very dynamic expansion at the upper end of velocity for most handgun rounds. Since the FBI declared that penetration was crucial, the Golden Saber, at least in that caliber, combined lower velocity with a very tough (cartridge-case brass) jacket, yielding the deeper penetration for the new FBI standard. The round appears to have been designed to give some of the same characteristics of the Winchester Black Talon/Ranger loads.

While it has not set the world on fire in the .357 Magnum chambering (there was a time when the Golden Saber was viewed as a leading load in .40 S&W), some people feel that it fills a niche for small-frame .357 Magnum revolvers, where recoil may be a big factor. I once did a side-by-side comparison, for muzzle flash, of Federal's 110 gr. .357 Magnum SJHP (which is somewhat analogous to a flash unit for a camera) and Remington's 125 gr. .357 Magnum Golden Saber, fired out of a 2 1/8" S&W 640-1 at dusk. My son and I took turns firing and observing and neither one of us could observe any difference in muzzle flash from behind the gun or from alongside the gun.

Is the load underpowered? It delivers more energy than a +P .38 Special. Even a standard-pressure 9mm usually ranks about two-thirds the way up from a +P .38 to a traditional .357 Magnum round, in terms of energy. So, if you consider a +P .38 to be underpowered, the Magnum Golden Saber offers a power boost, even if only to 9mm levels. On the flip side, if you perceive the likelihood that you may need to fire from a compressed, close-range position, where muzzle or barrel-cylinder blast may impact on your own face or body or that of a companion seated next to you, the +P .38 may not be such a poor choice.

[Javelin]

Golden Sabre have had really good reviews in all tests I have seen done online. The penetration and gel devestation was phenominal. Though depending on your caliber it seems that Cor-Bon was dominant in most (same with my .380).

:)

[Steve C]

Don't get hung up on velocity and energy numbers. Golden Sabers are designed to perform at the velocities the factory loads them to. They have an excellent reputation and perform as well as any other premium JHP's in both ballistic testing and Marshal-Sanow statistical performance comparison.

[Elvishead]

Don't get hung up on velocity and energy numbers. Golden Sabers are designed to perform at the velocities the factory loads them to. They have an excellent reputation and perform as well as any other premium JHP's in both ballistic testing and Marshal-Sanow statistical performance comparison.

That makes sense to me. Any higher or even lower velocity, and the bullet wouldn't work like it was designed. I think I read that somewhere some time ago.

[Rexster]

Saying a mid-velocity .357 load is a "dubious choice" compared to any 9mm load does not take into account all the people who own .357 revolvers and do not also own 9mm weapons. There are MANY such folks, and not all of them frequent internet forums. Then, there are people like me, who have an assortment of .357 sixguns and fiveguns, who may prefer to keep milder loads in our smaller, lighter, or snubbier .357 weapons, while we keep monster manglers in our heavier or longer-barreled sixguns, and in a pinch, can load any available .357 ammo into any of the weapons. Not trying to start a revolver-vs.-autoloader debate; I carry a .40 autoloader for duty, as per agency regs, and think .45 ACP and .357 SIG are great cartridges, too.

[1911Tuner]

There was a time that Remington offered an attenuated .357 round consisting of their excellent 125-grain JHP loaded to an advertised 1280 fps. It was downright pleasant compared to the 1400+ fps offerings, and didn't give up much in the way of penetration and expansion. For smaller-framed .357 revolvers like the SP-101 and the 3-inch Smith Model 13, it was a pretty good match, balancing reasonable power with reduced recoil and muzzle blast.
Head and shoulders over any .38 Special 125-grain +P loading at any rate.

[The Lone Haranguer]

Golden Sabre .357 125 1220 413

This one has never been made to be, or marketed as, a full-powered load, but as a medium-velocity, or what I like to call a "mild magnum." Something like this is far more pleasant to shoot in a small-frame and/or short-barreled revolver.

[ArchAngelCD]

The Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel .357 Magnum round has a Muzzle velocity of only 990 fps and produces only 294ft/lbs of energy at the muzzle. Those numbers are down right anemic compared to the Golden Saber yet this round is all the rage in the Snub Nose Magnum J frame world. Their .38 Special +P is rated at 860/222 which is almost as powerful at their Magnum round but I don't hear anyone complaining about Speer.

Remington has a very good .357 Magnum SD round in the Golden Saber IMO.

[MachIVshooter]

That makes sense to me. Any higher or even lower velocity, and the bullet wouldn't work like it was designed. I think I read that somewhere some time ago.

On that note, my own testing has proven the Golden Sabres to perform quite well over a wide range of velocities. Most of my testing has been in .40 caliber with 180 grain bullets, with the slower loads from a .40 S&W running around 1,000 FPS and top 10mm Auto loads pushing a shade over 1,400 FPS. The GS performed well in all tests, consitently getting a minimum 14" of penetration in clay with good expansion at the lower .40 S&W velocities and down right devastating results at the top of the 10mm range.

I use GS for all my defensive loads in .380, 9x19, .38, .357, .40, 10mm and .45. They're all handloaded to the upper end of each cartridge's potential.

[1911Tuner]

This one has never been made to be, or marketed as, a full-powered load, but as a medium-velocity, or what I like to call a "mild magnum." Something like this is far more pleasant to shoot in a small-frame and/or short-barreled revolver.

Precisely. Refer back about 3 decades to the .41 Magnum "Police" loading, consisting of a 210-grain LSWC at the advertised 970 fps compared to the full powered offering with a 210-grain JHP at 1250. The LSWC round fired from a 4-inch revolver would be on a par with a .44 Special +P. Decent level of power without all the ruckus.

Want all the romp and stomp to be had with the .357/125 JHP? Federal is ya Huckleberry...but be prepared to pay the price in flash, noise and kick...and it's rough on your gun. Winchester and Remington both have similar offerings.

[Rexster]

1911Tuner, I remember that .41 load fondly. I don't think it is even available these days. Toward the latter days of carrying my M58, a personally owned duty sixgun, all I could find was the 175-grain Silvertip, itself a mild magnum, and the 210-grain thunderboomers. I finally gave up carrying the .41, due to ammo being scarce and expensive, and finally admitting to myself that a guy with K/L-sized hands should not carry N-frames.

[1911Tuner]

1911Tuner, I remember that .41 load fondly.

I still have a couple boxes of that old stuff. One each of Remington and Winchester. I shot 10 rounds from a box of the same lot of the Winchester across a chronograph from my M58 and it just did break 900 fps.

No. Nobody loads it any more. Remington was the last holdout, and only in occasional small lots. IIRC, a cast 210-215 SWC and 8 grains of Unique is a near duplicate of it, in case you wanna take a trip down memory lane. Might be 8.5 grains. Been a while.

[Rexster]

Thanks for the recipe! I don't handload yet, but will eventually start. The old M58 is rarely fired any more, and only SA, cocking it slowly, as it is a little loose. Someday, I will get a good 'smith to tighten it up. An old San Antonio PD-issued sixgun, it became my duty sixgun for a while, after SAPD sold them off. Sometime in the past, the trigger face was relieved, bringing the LOP back to where I could just barely manage to properly place my finger for DA shooting. Nice sixgun; it gave me confidence in some dark times.

[Rexster]

Back to Golden Saber, I use it in my duty SIGs, in .40 S&W, the 165-grain Bonded load. If I ever go back to using a .380 as a pocket pistol, I will use Golden Saber in it. It's good stuff, IMHO, with bullets constructed to do well at their intended velocities. The title of the original post should not be taken to mean GS is underpowered across the board. The market demanded a milder .357 mag, and Remington filled it. Anyone wanting a classic hot 125-grain .357 load in a green Remington box can simply purchase the non-GS stuff.

[grimjaw]

I can't speak to the .357 Magnum load, but the 9mm loads have been some of the most consistent on the chrony for me, and well within acceptable for velocity (124gr +P bonded).

jm

[DENALI]

The golden sabre load in 9mm is designed to start opening up at about 620fps, As those of us who own scandium frame J-frames can attest the 125gr mag gold sabre is more than hot enough......It also will open up at much lower velocities.................

[mavracer]

As those of us who own scandium frame J-frames can attest the 125gr mag gold sabre is more than hot enough
absolutly its all I want to shoot from my M&P340,its a handfull but very accurate.