Some people do not belong on the range


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Mr.Revolverguy
January 20, 2008, 01:13 AM
As much as I promote gun ownership and protection of the 2nd, some people just do not belong on the range. So today at the club (indoor range very nice with awesome ventilation) this guy walks in with his firearms and ammunition. He is shooting a 300winmag, a 357 lead bullets, and I think it was a 41 or 44 magnum taurus with lead bullets. Sounds good so far right well I turn around and this guy is eating a hamburger and drinking coffee in between reloads. So I say he seems like a nice guy. I walk over and say he man how are ya. We introduce ourselves and I decide well just go back to shooting so I go back to my lane. Well after 10 minutes of watching this guy load up his magazines and taking bites of this burger and drinking this coffee I walk over and say hey you should really be careful. I would not eat or drink out here. I know there is no smoke in the air but I am sure there is plenty of lead particles in the air and possibly on your hands. This dude turns to me and says you know you should really mind your own business. I then apologized and walked back over to my area shaking my head. I guess the range officer must have finally seen this from the booth because we have cameras on the range and he came out and told the guy no food or drinks allowed there is a sign right before you walk in. He actually gets pissed packs up his stuff walks out slams the door goes up to the cash register and asked for his money back and the club refused, honestly which I was very proud of because he had been there for 30 minutes already, and non members pay advanced by the hour which is $14.95. So after I am done the range officer and I are talking about this and mentioned he never seen these guys before. I walk out the door and there he is standing with another guy next to his dodge ram dually. I decided it was best to go back into the club and avoid a confrontation. I told the range officer what the deal was and told him as I turned around I heard the one guy mention something to the fact that yeah that's him right there. We called some friends of mine (local law enforcement) and they responded very quick like with 3 cars and told the gentlemen they had to leave. Even though I had a loaded glock 30 on my hip concealed and a S&W 642 in my inside jacket pocket I know I made the right decision. I had a safe alternative and will op for that one every time. It is just sad for me though knowing that some politicians will classify all of us in the same category as these guys and think all gun owners are like this.

Just had to share this with someone, sort of bummed out by it.

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lanternlad1
January 20, 2008, 01:46 AM
Guns can make people stupid. Some people get a gun and stop using their brain. This guy seems to be one of those. I think you handled it correctly.

Regolith
January 20, 2008, 01:50 AM
Guns can make people stupid.

Nope. Guns don't make anyone anything. They're inanimate objects.

Some people are born stupid, however. This guy was one of them.

ColinthePilot
January 20, 2008, 01:56 AM
I used to go to an outdoor range in FL. I am usually very aware of range policies and safety rules. The first time i go to a new range, i walk in unarmed and check out the rules to make sure there's nothing unusual then go get my guns. I was there shooting on the rifle range and this kid walks up during a cease fire with a ninja'd AK, action closed (1 rule broken), carrying by the pistol grip (maybe not a violation, but bad practice in my book) and lays it down on the bench i'm sitting on so if it fires, it hits everyone on the bench right in the butt. So I say something to the kid about keeping the weapon pointed downrange and keeping the action open. The kid said something like "I know what i'm doing with my guns." add expletives as you like. I just stood up and said "fine, but i'm gonna stand so i don't get shot in the %#@"
Couple weeks ago i saw a guy doing a cowboy twirl with a revolver. stupid folks at the range scare the hell out of me.

mekender
January 20, 2008, 05:41 AM
apparently a couple of years back, the public range here in the national forest had some young white kid that ran out past the firing line while people were shooting, held an AK over his head and started shouting in arabic... needless to say he was tackled pretty quickly... and apparently he was "just joking"

woodybrighton
January 20, 2008, 07:47 AM
fortunatly in the uk most stupid civilians can't gain access to firearms (thats stupid civilians not all civilians )
but the rifle shooter who decided to take a short cut across a range :eek:got "beasted" back to his gun club friends.
heavy target rifle above your head for a km and a half on shingle with several angry squaddies encouraging you and when he got there. absolutely no sympathy from the fellow members. Its a military range complex and civillian shooters are tolerated on certain ranges
being a mong that might get your club barred from using a range won't win your friends:evil:
mind you theres lots of soldiers who should'nt be trusted with pointy sticks:banghead:

209
January 20, 2008, 08:23 AM
Sounds like you did a good thing mentioning lead problems and such. However, some people don't like to have anyone mention they're doing something wrong. At some point, that guy will have a lead issue and mother nature will resolve the problem in her own way. Eating food in an indoor range is just foolish. But some people don't understand and I think you met someone from the shallow part of the gene pool.

JWarren
January 20, 2008, 08:40 AM
Thanks for sharing that. I tend to agree with you although I have a couple comments.

Mr.Revolverguy wrote:

I walk over and say hey you should really be careful. I would not eat or drink out here.

I have often had a drink (non-alcoholic) when shooting. I can't, however, recall myself ever eating anything however. But I tend to have a drink with me at ALL times. Its a good bet that I have shooting more often than not.

Respectfully, the concern may be overblown. I have been shooting for 30 years now, and probably handled more cartridges than 75% of the people on these gunboards. So far, I am healthy. I wouldn't let that concern prevent me from having a cup of java while shooting. I'm not so sure about the hamburger though. It seems multitasking is getting a little out of hand.

Now granted, I have never been forced to shoot at ranges-- indoor or otherwise. Vapors are not a concern here. But you mentioned lead residue if I understand you correctly-- that would be a concern regardess of setting. At the same time, if you are shooting at a range, they have rules that you are expected to follow. *I* have rules that anyone that shoots on my property are expected to follow as well.


This dude turns to me and says you know you should really mind your own business.


Fair enough. He doesn't seem to care. Live and let live. Except that he is violating range rules. They have those for a reason. I can imagine how I'd feel if I occupied his space later only to find mayo smeared on the table.


I guess the range officer must have finally seen this from the booth because we have cameras on the range and he came out and told the guy no food or drinks allowed there is a sign right before you walk in.

That's on the range, not you. It isn't like you went and "tattled" on him-- although it was well within your rights-- and likely expected of you if you are a member of that range.

I walk out the door and there he is standing with another guy next to his dodge ram dually. I decided it was best to go back into the club and avoid a confrontation. I told the range officer what the deal was and told him as I turned around I heard the one guy mention something to the fact that yeah that's him right there.

:what:

THIS is where I REALLY start agreeing with your statement that some people do not belong on the range.


Just had to share this with someone, sort of bummed out by it.


I hope you are more bummed out by the fact that they were outside waiting for you than the fact that they didn't do it they way you would do it inside. I think that is what you are saying so I am really not directing this to you.

But I do think that our society is obsessed with the well-being of others. We are very big on telling others what they need to be doing. I think it is some kind of passive-aggressive need or something. I have to be honest with you-- if someone walked up to me while I was sipping coffee while shooting and told me I shouldn't be doing that, I probably wouldn't appreciate it. I would probably appreciate them minding their own business. My mannerisms would convey that message if my words didn't. I'm just being honest with you. Of course, if someone pointed out to me that it was against range rules, I would appologize and get rid of it. But that is different than someone "knowing what is best for me."

It seems that everyone has a view on how others should live. There are those who want to limit smoking for YOUR health. There are those that want to limit what foods you eat for YOUR health. There are those that want to make sure that you don't have a gun in your home for YOUR health. See the slippery slope?

The reality is that there is no such thing as being optimally healthy. I know a guy that was obsessed with his health, ate properly, and ran every day. He died at 38 years old from a heart attack. Damn those genetic predispositions!

People do things I would not personally do all the time. I do some others would not do all the time. Its choices. Sometimes choices have consequences.

Stoically speaking, it really amazes me that we both talk about how we can save more lives and increase the human lifespan even while we discuss the real concerns of global overpopulation. Perhaps stupidity is nature's way of population control. Perhaps stupidity is an element of humanity's natural selection.

I think Carlos Mencia was onto something a few seasons ago when he said "The problem with society today is there are too many stupid people and not enough things to eat them."


So basically, if someones actions are not a danger to me or others, live and let live. Being compassionate, I would likely offer advice to a person that generally seemed to not know. But I don't go around looking for people to mentor. If something is about to happen that I really don't think would be good and really hard to watch... well sure I'd say something. If they ignore me, I would keep a safe distance to insure that nothing gets on my clothes when they go splat.


But that's just me.


-- John

revjen45
January 20, 2008, 09:17 AM
"Guns can make people stupid." Respectfully disagree. Some stupid people have guns, but they were stupid to start with.
This Bozo will either give himself heavy metal poisoning or lay for someone who doesn't feel the need to get the police involved. Either way another fecal unit out of the gene pool.

Mr.Revolverguy
January 20, 2008, 09:30 AM
Jwarren

I understand and appreciate your comments. I can see how some may think this was the wrong approach. Because I am a member of this club and make all the meetings I was sure this was someone new visiting. So at the time the guy seemed down to earth so I thought I would take what I believed was the easy approach. Had it been someone I had seen around that I thought was just dead set on ignoring the rules I would have went your route and said hey there are signs on the door before you walk in that say no eating or drinking while on the range. Better yet I probably would not have said anything to the guy and just went and told the range officer. I did think about that approach and thought it may have been a little harsh. This is the reason I approached the guy twice thinking about my delivery and also the reason I had not said anything the first time. He was young and seemed to be very new to shooting so I just figured no need to throw rules in his face. I would much rather have someone approach me as if they had some concern for me as another human being. Nothing to do with filling any passive-aggressive need of mine :) It was about treating others as I expect others to treat me.

Having spent all of my young years, 2 decades in the Marine Corps caring for others becomes a part of who you are. I do not go around telling people they should not smoke or drive their cars without seat belts to each his own or live and let live as you said. But when it comes to brotherhood and camaraderie on the range it is just a part of who I am, which I realize could be a short coming on my part as viewed by others.

sandwich
January 20, 2008, 09:32 AM
As much as I promote gun ownership and protection of the 2nd, some people just do not belong on the range. So today at the club (indoor range very nice with awesome ventilation) this guy walks in with his firearms and ammunition. He is shooting a 300winmag, a 357 lead bullets, and I think it was a 41 or 44 magnum taurus with lead bullets. Sounds good so far right well I turn around and this guy is eating a hamburger and drinking coffee in between reloads. So I say he seems like a nice guy. I walk over and say he man how are ya. We introduce ourselves and I decide well just go back to shooting so I go back to my lane. Well after 10 minutes of watching this guy load up his magazines and taking bites of this burger and drinking this coffee I walk over and say hey you should really be careful. I would not eat or drink out here. I know there is no smoke in the air but I am sure there is plenty of lead particles in the air and possibly on your hands. This dude turns to me and says you know you should really mind your own business. I then apologized and walked back over to my area shaking my head. I guess the range officer must have finally seen this from the booth because we have cameras on the range and he came out and told the guy no food or drinks allowed there is a sign right before you walk in. He actually gets pissed packs up his stuff walks out slams the door goes up to the cash register and asked for his money back and the club refused, honestly which I was very proud of because he had been there for 30 minutes already, and non members pay advanced by the hour which is $14.95. So after I am done the range officer and I are talking about this and mentioned he never seen these guys before. I walk out the door and there he is standing with another guy next to his dodge ram dually. I decided it was best to go back into the club and avoid a confrontation. I told the range officer what the deal was and told him as I turned around I heard the one guy mention something to the fact that yeah that's him right there. We called some friends of mine (local law enforcement) and they responded very quick like with 3 cars and told the gentlemen they had to leave. Even though I had a loaded glock 30 on my hip concealed and a S&W 642 in my inside jacket pocket I know I made the right decision. I had a safe alternative and will op for that one every time. It is just sad for me though knowing that some politicians will classify all of us in the same category as these guys and think all gun owners are like this.

Just had to share this with someone, sort of bummed out by it.

It's too bad that had to happen to you, but you definitely handled it as well as anyone could have. I probably wouldn't have handled it as well as you did, to be honest with you.

Plus, I can understand about you being bummed out about it. I think most people have had a similar experience at least once.

ranger58
January 20, 2008, 09:36 AM
very smart move. anytime you can stay out of a confrontation you should. there are always going to be people out there that shouldn't have gun's, unfortunately we can't control that, be aware of your surroundings like you did and making the right move.

JWarren
January 20, 2008, 09:41 AM
Mr. Revolverguy,

Actually, I do not disagree with your actions-- nor do I think you had a need to "control" this guy's actions. I think you handled it well, and I would have likely done the same. I was only editoralizing and offering a perspective.

I was primarily concerned with his actions AFTER your discussion, and to a lesser degree his lack of respect for the rules of the range.

Either of those justify your premise that some folks just simply don't belong on a range-- and your sentiment that you'd rather not have those folks representing you as a gunowner. I concure.

-- John

Treo
January 20, 2008, 09:55 AM
The older I get, the more I realize it's usually not a question of people not knowing the rules as it is people not caring about the rules. In a situation like that where the guy isn't endangering anyone but himself, I wouldn't have said a word if I didn't have the authority to enforce the rule.

sandwich
January 20, 2008, 09:56 AM
I used to go to an outdoor range in FL. I am usually very aware of range policies and safety rules. The first time i go to a new range, i walk in unarmed and check out the rules to make sure there's nothing unusual then go get my guns. I was there shooting on the rifle range and this kid walks up during a cease fire with a ninja'd AK, action closed (1 rule broken), carrying by the pistol grip (maybe not a violation, but bad practice in my book) and lays it down on the bench i'm sitting on so if it fires, it hits everyone on the bench right in the butt. So I say something to the kid about keeping the weapon pointed downrange and keeping the action open. The kid said something like "I know what i'm doing with my guns." add expletives as you like. I just stood up and said "fine, but i'm gonna stand so i don't get shot in the %#@"
Couple weeks ago i saw a guy doing a cowboy twirl with a revolver. stupid folks at the range scare the hell out of me.

This is why I never go to public ranges anymore, except indoor ones once in a blue moon. I don't want to offend anyone, but at least here, the people who go to the public ranges are the people who can't get in to a private range, and usually for good reason. The differences between the public and private ranges here are amazing.

At the public ranges, there often is no range officer, but plenty of raging jerks. There have been times where I haven't felt safe around some of the people shooting at the range, and would avoid any contact with them (while making sure I had my CCW in my pocket at all times). Some of the people there just need that one last straw to break before they go postal. There are usually power battles about who dictates the firing and target placement cycles. I have seen people break every gun rule in the book, and a few that are lucky to be alive (including a group that started downrange, not realizing that a jerk farther down wanted some more shooting time, even though he had been shooting for at least 20 minutes).

I am usually very vocal about gun safety, but at the public ranges I would usually keep my mouth shut, simply out of fear that I might have to kill someone if I bring up gun safety issues with a maniac. Sorry to be so, subjective, but I just wanted to give you all an idea of what my public range experience has been here. Maybe they are better in other places, but I don't think I will ever go to a public range around here again.

As for the private ranges, they are generally in a different class. The one I am at now is great. Everybody follows the rules, I don't fear for my life, I don't have to carry a CW, or worry about my rifles being stolen, no one shoots except members, who can bring a guest, and most people are quite friendly. They have strict rules (one bullet in a rifle magazine at a time, for example), but the trade off is great.

Sorry to bore you with my stories, but I just wanted to comment on the differences between the public/private ranges because it is an issue I can identify with.

JWarren
January 20, 2008, 10:04 AM
I wanted to add....


Absent the rules, I would have probably said something like:

Howdy... Did you know that one cause for the fall of the Roman empire is attributed to lead poisoning from lead cups? I'm not telling you what to do, but I dunno if I'd be handling lead bullets while I was eating. I just didn't know if you thought about that."

If I got shrugged off, its all on him. SOMEONE has to be THAT guy. May as well be him.


-- John

Packman
January 20, 2008, 12:08 PM
They have strict rules (one bullet in a rifle magazine at a time, for example), but the trade off is great.

dang...there'd have to be some GREAT perks to that range to make me deal with ONE round in a rifle mag at a time....(we're going to ignore the fact that I've been shooting single-shot rifles lately...but still.)

Well, if you like it, I guess it's alright though.

The Lone Haranguer
January 20, 2008, 12:27 PM
At the indoor range (http://scottsdalegunclub.com) I go to, there is a sign disallowing food or drink in the actual shooting area. Also on the posted list of rules is one saying to report safety violations to a range officer. Implicit in this is that you are expected to and not worry about being a "snitch." I think, personally, that this is what I would have done and not initiated the first contact.

CTPistol
January 20, 2008, 12:34 PM
I wouldnt care if a guy is lead poisoning himself...:barf:...eating a burger inside the range??? wow...

but some of the other stuff?? Id pack and leave ASAP. A newbee making a mistake? sure I will help (and hope someone points out the same with me)...but a ganster looking dirtbag and his AK? - nah, you need to join a club somewhere.

springmom
January 20, 2008, 12:41 PM
I always have a drink with me when I shoot. It gets way too hot in the Texas summer (sometimes even in the Texas winters, lol) for me to be out there for a couple of hours without a water bottle. I just leave the cap on the bottle until I'm ready to get a drink; and I put the bottle itself underneath the shooting table on the seat (think of an elementary school desk sort of arrangement; the bench actually attaches to the support under the desk. Eating is for later, after I've washed up.

You handled the conflict well, which is more than I can say for Mr. Ham and Mayo.

Springmom

ClickClickD'oh
January 20, 2008, 12:44 PM
Wait, you got a guy kicked off the range because he had a burger, then called the cops when you saw him in the parking lot?

Am I the only one so far that has a problem with this story?

If he's that insistant on sucking down a burger he's probably going to burst an artery soon anyways. Unless he's shoving the thing in his pie hole while popping off rounds it's not really a safety problem in relation to you and shouldn't be any of your concern.

...and the only time there aren't people hanging out talking in the parking lot of the range I go to is when it's raining. Shooting ranges are almost as much social clubs as they are anything else. I see no reason to assume that the guy in the parking lot was there for you.

What ever happened to letting people be?

Mr.Revolverguy
January 20, 2008, 01:19 PM
I got him kicked off the range how do you figure? He got himself kicked off the range when he disobeyed the rules. Not to mentioned he signed a release form when entering the range saying he would obey these rules. Had the guy not been parked right by the door and then tell his buddy yeah thats the blankity blankity right there I would not have thought twice.

Click I respect your thoughts and comments it is America your entitled but I do not have to agree with them.

Notice I said call a few friends, friends that I work with closely on a daily basis :) technically I did not have to call anyone.

Chuck Dye
January 20, 2008, 01:59 PM
JWarren wrote:
I have been shooting for 30 years now, and probably handled more cartridges than 75% of the people on these gunboards. So far, I am healthy.

Unless you have undertaken lead specific tissue assays, how would you know? Indeed, given that cognitive impairment is one of the symptoms of lead poisoning, without those tissue assays, mightn't you be even less likely to recognize your own early symptoms?

RoadkingLarry
January 20, 2008, 02:15 PM
Stupid people can make Guns dangerous. Some people get a gun and stop using their brain. This guy seems to be one of those. I think you handled it correctly.

There, fixed it for you :)

lonegunman
January 20, 2008, 02:22 PM
Instead of going over, being nosy and pretending to be friendly, you should have walked over and simply said, "Excuse me, no food or drinks are allowed on the firing line. The range officers will ride your ass if they see it because it is a heath and safety issue." Why beat around the bush?

We have the same rules at a few places I shoot and it is unusual to find someone who does not know about the dangers of lead and does not take care to avoid ingesting it. So I am all for a friendly warning. But, you seem to have taken great care to be nosy and memorize everything the guy owned on the table. I'm sure he wasn't fooled into thinking you were being his buddy either.

I shoot a lot of bullseye and competitive rifle so I spend a lot of time at the range. It seems that about once a month some guy walks over to finger-f@#k my gear or peek in my gun box and seems to always have unwanted advice or to complain to the RO about my target turner or the brass piled on the floor. Like everyone else, I want to be left alone to practice in peace.

The guy was looking for a friendly place to shoot and you made sure he didn't find it. Stopping eating on the range could have been done in a nicer fashion. The flipside to the slob shooters are the regulars who take their range nazi duties too far.

yhtomit
January 20, 2008, 02:36 PM
Drinks are a lot easier to justify than a finger-licking food like a hamburger. Like Springmom says, sometimes it's too hot to *not* have a drink on hand! Keeping it in a covered container under a barrier I think mitigates enough of the danger to make me feel just fine about it, really. (I would not want to eat fried chicken from a bucket I'm using as a forearm support while firing, though :))

I think you did the right thing there, though. You said your piece politely, and he took it poorly. I agree with your assessment -- some people shouldn't be at the range. (Many of the people who I mean by that could be fine at the range with minor training in safety, courtesy, etc -- like the fellow who inadvertently swept me a few times with his .44 magnum. Not malice, just not thinking hard enough.)

timothy

Mr.Revolverguy
January 20, 2008, 03:15 PM
lonegunman,

You don't know me at all "pretending to be friendly" as I said for me the range is a place of camaraderie and brotherhood. I understand that does not mean everyone feels this way, but it was far from pretending and being nosy. As a matter off fact at first I thought the guy was trying to initiate conversation having stood behind me in my lane watching me put rounds down range with my ruger 4 inch 44magnum. I find it amazing that few here think oh such a jerk got the guy kicked off the range when he is the one that did not obey the rules. Now had I walked out and got the range officer and said look this guy is in there eating, then I am sure I would be getting comments like why didn't you just tell the guy.

The professions I have been in through out my life has helped me walk into a room and within a few minutes walk out and remember great details about things, so it was not being nosy at all.

lonegunman
January 20, 2008, 04:36 PM
I'm sure you are a wonderful guy, I mean what says wonderful like marching into a parking lot with two loaded concealed guns to confront a guy for eating at the range? Then calling the cops on him because you heard him complaining about you to his buddy. To me that just does not seem,,,,,,,,well "friendly".

I guess you consider shooting "camaraderie" calling the cops on guys for eating at a range? I'm just saying in my part of the world, simply pointing to the signs and offering a polite word is more along the lines of "friendly".

Between you and the RO the guy must have been interupted four or five time in thirty minutes and then finally driven off the range for the crime of "eating". What was it about this guy that set you off? Was he fat? Did he look different or maybe he was a little to low class for your type of shooting?

I just think it is odd to go to such an extreme for a guy who was "eating".

JWarren
January 20, 2008, 04:43 PM
Chuck Dye wrote:

Quote:
JWarren wrote:
I have been shooting for 30 years now, and probably handled more cartridges than 75% of the people on these gunboards. So far, I am healthy.

Unless you have undertaken lead specific tissue assays, how would you know? Indeed, given that cognitive impairment is one of the symptoms of lead poisoning, without those tissue assays, mightn't you be even less likely to recognize your own early symptoms?


Chuck, I understand what you are saying-- but its not something I am going to worry myself with. You see, I've watched FAR too many men who are old men now hold lead 22 cartridges in their lips as they loaded tube magazines. Somehow the majority of them lived into their late 80's and mid-90's.

No, I am not suggesting that lead isn't actually a threat. I am putting it into perspective.

Frankly, there are TONS of things that compete every day to make us ill or outright kill us. Considering some of my habits, I think betting on lead to do me in is a long shot. There's WAY better choices.

I am far more concerned about the benezene we routinely inhale as we are filling our vehicles with fuel. That causes cancer, you know. Yet, I've watched several people use it to clean their hands of paint, etc. and they still became old men.

Trans fatty acids are gonna do us all in-- that's for sure.

This again reminds me of a guy I knew who was a health-freak. He ate right, he watched his weight and cholesterol, and ran a few miles a day. Then he fell over dead from a massive heart attack at the age of 38 years old. Damn those congenial dispositions. No seriously.... damn them. Because of family history, I have the wonderful experience of having a polaroid camera shoved up my rear sometime this year-- and then once every 5 years after that.

But I digress...

If we really worried about all the threats we have to our health to such a degree, we would all walk around in CBN suits. I am not saying that we shouldn't take reasonable precautions, however. I am saying that we should put it into perspective.

Have I been exposed to lead? Sure. So have the rest of you. So far, I am making it. So are you.



-- John

Lonestar49
January 20, 2008, 05:07 PM
...

Ya tried, but some people refuse education in any form..

Once in a blue moon, there will be some ya-yoo's within my indoor shooting lanes, and I usually wait outside and watch thru the glass until either the range master corrects the problem, and they seem to learn, or just wait until they have finished firing all their ammo, fast-like.. and they leave.

Ya can't take your own safety too lightly, especially at the range, as one way or another, stupidity, rudeness, coupled with the power_trip, make their way there..


Ls

Mr.Revolverguy
January 20, 2008, 05:32 PM
lonegunman,

No one kicked him off the range. I am not sure what was said but as the range officer told me he just pointed the signs out to the guy and asked him to step out to finish up his food. And supposedly thats when the guy got pissed packed up and left. So he left under his own power, no one got him kicked off at least no one but himself.

And I know this must be a joke leaving with two concealed weapons to confront a guy in the parking lot for eating LOL. One is my off duty weapon and the other is my backup something that is carried 24x7. I think you need to reread the post, again no one kicked him out of the range he left under his own power.

plexreticle
January 20, 2008, 05:44 PM
If it doesn't affect my safety or use of the facilities I could care less if some idiot wants to chew a hamburger on the range.

Now if I were chewing a hamburger on the no food and drink range and someone mentioned it. I would say my bad and either toss it or go outside and finish it.

Some people just look for reasons to get bent out of shape.

Sam1911
January 20, 2008, 05:57 PM
I'm sure you are a wonderful guy, I mean what says wonderful like marching into a parking lot with two loaded concealed guns to confront a guy for eating at the range? Then calling the cops on him because you heard him complaining about you to his buddy. To me that just does not seem,,,,,,,,well "friendly".

I guess you consider shooting "camaraderie" calling the cops on guys for eating at a range? I'm just saying in my part of the world, simply pointing to the signs and offering a polite word is more along the lines of "friendly".

Between you and the RO the guy must have been interupted four or five time in thirty minutes and then finally driven off the range for the crime of "eating". What was it about this guy that set you off? Was he fat? Did he look different or maybe he was a little to low class for your type of shooting?

I just think it is odd to go to such an extreme for a guy who was "eating".

Reading comprehension not your strong suit? Seems like you skipped, lets see...one, two, three...ALL of the pertinent plot details of this little story. But you made up for that by adding a few yourself. :rolleyes:

There might be a decent way to play devil's advocate here -- but you didn't find it. Try again?

-Sam

Lonestar49
January 20, 2008, 06:19 PM
...

Maybe the 2 of them are one in the same.. ?


Ls

silverlance
January 20, 2008, 07:43 PM
OP is right. gunowners should watch out for each other, like brothers in any sport. ive done many things for complete strangers on the range that i woiuldnt do for other folks. jump starts, lessons, help with a gun, advice, etc.

that said, i would not leave my guns unattended on the bench while i went to take a pee break.

my point? do what you can for your fellow gun owner - after all, we've got enough enemies in common. but if the guy gives you attitude, etc... fine, apologize even if you've done no wrong and walk away. the high road demands this type of acceptance. BUT if you see something that can be dangerous for the shooter or for others, by all means you should, nay, must report it to an RO. if it is REALLY serious, you have to take action yourself.

half a year ago i was shooting on a weekday. few people at the range, this was 11 in the morning. in the of the gun fire i see an idiot start walking down range to his target as i'm shooting. he's carrying his target out!

no time to run to the RO in his shack. I immediately clear my handgun and yell, COLD RANGE, COLD RANGE! For some stupid reason, in the heat of the moment i meant to say CEASE FIRE but instead COLD RANGE came out. between my yelling and arm waving the other shooters stopped; several bewildered shooters looked up from their scopes.

the RO came out, took one look, and yelled, CEASE FIRE, CEASE FIRE. Then he yelled at me, THE RANGE IS NOT COLD! STAY BEHIND THE BENCHES!... at that time he hadn't figured out what was going wrong. The idiot was still standing out downrange; the RO made him come back, and all he could say was, "Was I not supposed to do that?"

If i hadn't yelled and stopped everyone from shooting, it could have been unpleasant - especially if one of the scoped guys had hit him by accident.

subierex
January 20, 2008, 07:59 PM
I plan on changing to another outdoor range this spring because of such shenanigans. The range I have been a member of is closest to my house, but is also very popular due to its low price (state run, $25 a year). Don't want this to sound bad, and maybe I'm wrong, but I think you get a wider cross-section of people at this range because of the low entry fee. Not only do you get serious shooters who take shooting very seriously, I think you tend to get the, uh, more casual shooter. There are rangemasters, but it's a big range and they can't be everywhere all the time.

Long story even longer: This past year I saw no less than 3 or 4 times when someone has covered someone with the muzzle of their gun. Last time it was a guy shooting an AK next to me. He lays the gun down on the bench so that the muzzle is aiming right down the shooting line away from me but right at a group of three guys next to him. Of course he had just loaded a fresh 30 round mag. One of the three guys eyes went saucer shaped and they packed up and left. I kindly reminded the guy about range safety. He was apologetic , but I packed up and left too.

A guy I work with suggested his range. It sponsors SASS events and is ruthless about range safety. Gonna try it this year.

LeonCarr
January 20, 2008, 08:12 PM
If I ever own a public range, I will keep the book Gunshot Wounds by Dr. Vincent DiMaio (Retired Chief Medical Examiner for Bexar County, San Antonio, Texas) behind the counter. Every person who comes in to shoot will have to look at this book and see what high speed projectiles do to the human body, and get a wake up call to why the range safety rules must be followed.

If anybody gets a chance, take a look at this book, but don't do it while eating a meal.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

bikerdoc
January 20, 2008, 08:17 PM
god must love stupid people he made a bunch of em

at my range hourly rentals are give a list of rules - including not eating- and the R/O watches them pretty close

firemanjohn
January 20, 2008, 08:30 PM
I'm sure you are a wonderful guy, I mean what says wonderful like marching into a parking lot with two loaded concealed guns to confront a guy for eating at the range? Then calling the cops on him because you heard him complaining about you to his buddy. To me that just does not seem,,,,,,,,well "friendly".

I would say this proves his character, he had the weapons, but chose to avoid potential confrontation all together. It sounds like the guy was somewhat disruptive when asked to leave for a good reason, so calling LE was justified. I would say this was handled very well by both revolverguy and the range staff. I know the folks at my local range make no bones about booting people who don't follow the rules exactly, and they aren't out to make friends when they deal with violators.

Charles Foxtrot
January 20, 2008, 08:31 PM
Mr. Revolverguy;

Well played, sir! We should all hope to be as situationally aware, efficient in employment of available resources, and wise in your tactical choices.

Let's hope the aggressive dummy learns. But the stupid seem to be the most persistent of all.

Frog48
January 20, 2008, 08:33 PM
Eating at the range is definitely strange, but if the guy wants to potentially poison himself with lead, thats his decision (and subsequently his problem)... not yours or mine. If its against the range rules, let the RO speak to him about it. You shouldnt have nagged him about such an inconsequential thing.

And the "situation" in the parking lot... unless the guy directly confronted you in a hostile manner, calling the cops was a little overboard.

The Annoyed Man
January 20, 2008, 08:40 PM
I've had bottled water at an outdoor range on a hot day a number of times. But I would never eat greasy food around my firearms. I wouldn't want to get hamburger juice all over one of my guns.

PS, the guy in question was a jerk, no doubt. If a range has rules, it's their sandbox and their rules. You should either follow them, or get out.

biscuitninja
January 20, 2008, 09:52 PM
Wow, talk about Mr. Whiney Pants.... None of us are perfect, and if its not a Range we own, then we follow the rules. He had a choice to follow the rules, he decided not to and left of his own accord. Even worse he was looking for a confrontation.
Unless they are improperly handling the weapon, I say, let them be. Being nice is good to people who only need and or want help. If they don't, well its not your job and people are just to dumb to know the difference. Good luck and keep it safe....

-bix

p.s. Private ranges are AWSOME because usually it weeds out the ignorant real fast.
good luck

bogie
January 20, 2008, 10:07 PM
Guns can make people stupid.

Yup. Very true. Airborne lead poisoning is kind a hard on the ol' brain...

Soybomb
January 20, 2008, 10:15 PM
Sounds like you tried to be a nice guy and warn him of some serious dangers he might not have known about it. Its a shame he couldn't have just as politely said "thanks but I'll take my chances" but thats people today.

At the indoor public range I don't bother trying to be polite to any other shooters if they're being unsafe anymore. I've found they often continue to handle their loaded guns behind me and behind the stalls. I'd rather just let the staff know and they can just keep an eye on the careless shooter so I can enjoy my time without worrying as much about them doing something to endanger me.

yenchisks
January 20, 2008, 10:18 PM
I think your just a nosey bizzy body, looking for some one to correct~!

U.S.SFC_RET
January 20, 2008, 10:19 PM
You are not going to please a crowd. You cannot possibly say anything to anyone all of the time without offending someone some of the time. IMHO the guy was a bit on the mental side. I would just chalk it up as a learning experience and move on. Next time you see him, you will know better. "hello and get lost."
If I was there I probably would have sided with you. I wasn't there to see it but if you have a feeling about people, if you get a hunch about people just tune them out.
You have a defensive tool in your head and your gut. You decide who you talk to and you decide who you don't talk to. You will always redefine that hunch about people. What you went through IMHO wasn't a waste of time, it was a learning experience for you and the THR. Thank you.

yhtomit
January 20, 2008, 11:28 PM
I'm sure Mr.Revolverguy can deal with some of the critique being dished out here (I haven't counted to see which way the Approval Rating leans ;)) by people who think he was a busybody or tattletale or whatever. As I said before, I think he was in the right and in the clear -- and definitely didn't deserve a resentful pointing-out in the parking lot. (Creepy!)

It seems the actions of Mr. Hamburgereater invoked the application of one of the world's many useful double standards. Be polite, but don't expect politeness in return. Try to be safe, but stay alert to the fact that others may not be. The Golden Rule and all that :)

Hamburgereater just hasn't decided to seek full enlightenment yet, and wants to have the range, and eat it (the hamburger), too -- and then grouse when other people aren't happy with his breaking the range rules. He seems to have demonstrated being worth (based on the described story) a shrug and some caution. Maybe he'll grow out of it.

timothy

sandwich
January 21, 2008, 01:40 AM
dang...there'd have to be some GREAT perks to that range to make me deal with ONE round in a rifle mag at a time....(we're going to ignore the fact that I've been shooting single-shot rifles lately...but still.)

Well, if you like it, I guess it's alright though.

Lol, well it is a great range. As for the rule, it was put into effect mostly to weed out the idiots who were shooting apart the mounts for the targets with their AK 47s or other semi automatic weapons. I was told this was happening a lot before I joined, and that in the time before I joined, the club started to weed the idiots out. As for the rule now, the unwritten rule (at least what I have seen so far) is that as long as you're not being stupid, you can load your rifle with more than one round.

Leitmotif
January 21, 2008, 08:49 AM
Hm. Well, calling him on eating at the range is all well and good, but I reckon you went overboard by calling the cops on him just for pointing you out. Sure, if he was waiting in your driveway or if he was following you in traffic. But standing out in front of a range chatting with a buddy? How does that justify calling the police?

I'd rather have ignored them, let them be, and gone home.

onlinebiker
January 21, 2008, 09:06 AM
I would have offered the guy a few lead paint chips to go with his burger....
From the sound of it - he'd eaten more than a few as a kid....

Bart Noir
January 21, 2008, 04:19 PM
Guess I'll be the "nosey bizzy body" here.

If you want to fling insults in THR, please be sure to address them so we know whom you mean. It makes the job of the moderators easier as they toss you off the board.

Bart Noir

Dorryn
January 21, 2008, 04:31 PM
Once I ate sunflower seeds at my club's outdoor range. But nobody was around. A hamburger would be... nasty. Then again, I prefer to shoot when nobody else is around, so I like to hit up the range early in the mornings. I figure this way, I dont have to worry about anyone else being unsafe or seeing what a horrible shot I am.

Eric F
January 21, 2008, 04:46 PM
Some people do not belong on the range
And some folks shouldnt be allowed to own a gun either IMO but you will never convince others on that one either.

+1 for calling the cops......you never know..........

I have learned over the years that some folks at a gun range are thick headed idiots and no matter what you say or do they in their own mind will always be right. Public ranges seem to be magnents for these types. I only say that because I have had more encounters with these type folks than any other place(ie marinas car shows ect ect)

I choose to ignore minor offences like eating-drinking on the line that is until their drink gets spilled and food wrapers end up on the ground.

lonegunman
January 21, 2008, 11:32 PM
"And some folks shouldnt be allowed to own a gun either IMO but you will never convince others on that one either.

+1 for calling the cops......you never know.........."




After being driven from the range(where he paid 15 dollars an hour to shoot a few rounds) by overly helpful patrons and range officers the guy was in the parking lot bitching to his buddy. Is that against the law?


I'm still curious, how did we determine eating at the range needed the attention of the local PD?

.38 Special
January 21, 2008, 11:53 PM
Am I the only one so far that has a problem with this story?
Well, no, not exactly. I wouldn't go so far as to say the OP was wrong, but I will mention that I've had pretty good luck minding my own business, even when I see fellow grown-ups doing things that I wouldn't do myself. YMMV, of course.

.38 Special
January 21, 2008, 11:58 PM
After being driven from the range(where he paid 15 dollars an hour to shoot a few rounds) by overly helpful patrons and range officers the guy was in the parking lot bitching to his buddy. Is that against the law?
Boy, you really don't get it. A few years ago I was at a rifle range and I saw someone smoking a cigarette. Being as I am my brother's keeper, I marched right up to him and lectured him on the dangers of tobacco. He didn't seem to understand that it was for his own good, and he told me to go away. (The nerve of some people...)

Anyway, I did my duty and reported it to the R.O., who called in the National Guard, natch. I understand that fellow has since been re-educated and allowed back into society as a productive member.

So I really feel like I helped a brother in the shooting fraternity.

chingon
January 22, 2008, 12:09 AM
LMAO, .38 special.

I don't see why anyone would feel motivated to approach someone else about eating at a range unless that person was posing a danger to other people. Calling the cops for pointing you out was WAY overboard. It's not against the law to point someone out, I bet the cops were shaking their heads after they left. I'm suprised so many people say you conducted yourself properly by calling the cops on someone that pointed you out.

lanternlad1
January 22, 2008, 12:17 AM
To those of you who disagree that guns can make people stupid...

To clarify,

Guns have an amazing effect on those who don't have much experience with them. You go from feeling powerless to feeling like Superman. Like you have the Magic Talisman that will protect you and wreak vengeance on your enemies. Much like too much alcohol makes you feel like you can whup every man in the house.

While not true, this is certainly how some people feel. I know its how I felt. It took rigorous training and research to awaken me to the epiphany of guns as mere tools. It appears to me that this is the case of the Gun Range Gourmet.

Guns CAN make people stupid. Alcohol can make stupid. Posting anonymously on the internet can make people stupid. Its all in how you use what you're given.

Soybomb
January 22, 2008, 12:21 AM
A few years ago I was at a rifle range and I saw someone smoking a cigarette
The dangers of smoking cigarettes are well known, not as many shooters are as aware of the dangers of lead in the air at a range. Many range owners and employees even seem ignorant about it.

[qutoe]I don't see why anyone would feel motivated to approach someone else about eating at a range unless that person was posing a danger to other people.[/quote]
Is it that strange to try to point out a health hazard to a person that very well might not know about it even if they are a stranger? Is the idea of caring about other in the world that dead that we can't even fathom why anyone would do such a thing?

chingon
January 22, 2008, 12:31 AM
Walking up to a stranger like that netted a response exactly as I would expect. It's not caring, it's fricken nosy. It's up to the club to enforce their rules that do not affect anyone else. There are already enough people, like peta, bothering everyone telling us what's good for us. One lone busybody walking up may catch the flack for all of them. I wouldn't be eating in that situation, but if someone walked up to me to point out something "not good for me" I would tell them where to stick it.

What was the health hazard of the guy in the parking lot? Cops should only be called when someone breaks the law, pointing someone out is not breaking the law.

XD Fan
January 22, 2008, 12:42 AM
Aside from th health risk, I would think that the potential of him leaving grease and condiments on shared range equipment (i.e. bench rests) would justifiy the rule and enforcement of such a rule.

Lonegunman, replacing letters with random symbols does not make your language high road.

.38 Special
January 22, 2008, 12:55 AM
Is the idea of caring about other in the world that dead that we can't even fathom why anyone would do such a thing?
The line between "caring" and "butting in" is exceedingly fine. I always try to err on the side of "He's a grown-up; he knows what he's doing". To err on the other side can actually be pretty insulting, if you look at from the POV of the fellow who's being lectured.

And again, I'm not really trying to say that there was definitely something wrong with telling the guy he shouldn't eat inside the range. I just want to point out that it's not as perfectly clear-cut as some seem to think.

Elm Creek Smith
January 22, 2008, 01:02 AM
At a local range, my brother and I were at the "plinking range" shooting at cardboard boxes with those Shoot-N-See stick-on targets on them when a bunch of guys, mostly law enforcement came up from the "action pistol range" so one of them could show off his new select-fire SIG .223 carbine. (The plinking range is the only one in the complex where full-auto is allowed.) They were having a great time spraying rounds down range and brass down the firing line until they shot up our boxes. I saw the look on my brother's face (kinda purplish) and called "Cease fire!" It took a few bellows to get their attention and get them to stop shooting. I got some incredulous looks from them when I explained why I called a cease fire and informed them that they were as welcome to shoot there as anyone else, but that they were supposed to bring their own targets, not shoot up other peoples'. When they started telling me that they were lawmen and just demonstrating a new rifle to other cops, I asked them when being lawmen justified rude behavior. I asked if they had any Shoot-N-See targets to replace the ones the shot up and got laughed at. I then identified myself as "Captain _____, Retired," and asked for their agencies, badge numbers, supervisors' names, and their membership numbers for the gun club. There were some red faces and stammering right up until one of the guys dug into his range bag, found some Shoot-N-See targets and apologized. The full-auto guys packed up and left right after that. It took a while for my brother to "depurple-ize" though.

ECS

chingon
January 22, 2008, 01:52 AM
Aside from th health risk, I would think that the potential of him leaving grease and condiments on shared range equipment (i.e. bench rests) would justifiy the rule and enforcement of such a rule.


Ah yes, the old "the potential that they may posibly leave a mess" argument. Sounds a lot like the old "they shouldn't be able to own guns because of the potential to possibly shoot someone" argument.

People should not be ablle to bring oil to put on their guns as that has the potential of making a bigger mess.

The line between "caring" and "butting in" is exceedingly fine. I always try to err on the side of "He's a grown-up; he knows what he's doing". To err on the other side can actually be pretty insulting, if you look at from the POV of the fellow who's being lectured.

And again, I'm not really trying to say that there was definitely something wrong with telling the guy he shouldn't eat inside the range. I just want to point out that it's not as perfectly clear-cut as some seem to think.


Exactly and calling the cops afterward is far from it.

Waywatcher
January 22, 2008, 06:46 AM
I'm not the only one who thinks you should mind your own business.

He was breaking the rules, sure. You were being a tattle tale.

If he had his kid there eating it'd be a completely different story and understandable.

I think you were in the wrong and should have left him alone--he wasn't hurting you in any way shape or form.

YZR
January 22, 2008, 01:13 PM
Revo-guy,
IMHO it sounds like it was handled properly. Some people, including members of this forum (^), are always looking to pick a fight.

Diggers
January 22, 2008, 02:11 PM
Mr. Rev.

Nice of you to try to help out someone. Seems some people won't be helped.

To make such a big deal out of some thing like being told not to eat on the range that screams UNSTABLE to me.


Good call calling the cops too, with someone that sensitive you never know what they will do. The fact that he was still in the parking lot after he stormed out of the place is very suspicious.

Nice job avoiding a potentially dangerous situation.

And to LOANGUNMAN, the fact that you feel the need to try to flame Mr. Rev over this by twisting the facts or by just making things up makes me wonder where you are coming from.

Not very THR of you at all. :(

This is not that type of forum, if you just want to pick a fight you should go some place else.

scubasigguy
January 22, 2008, 02:15 PM
I too think that you handled it well. You have obviously been trained to deal with people and handle confrontations, so who are we to judge you? I don't see anything out of line at all in even the slightest way. I would take all of the criticsim with a grain of salt and consider the source.


The bullet holes that are normally directly above me at most ranges that I have been to scare the heck out of me. I always try to get a lane next to the wall at the range as it seem to me to be a safer spot and I only have to keep an eye on folks on one side of me.

MakAttak
January 22, 2008, 02:39 PM
Wow, it's absolutely frightening the people defending the moron.

People have a right to take whatever risks they so desire.

They don't have a right to take whatever risks they desire IN MY HOUSE.

Mr. Revolverguy is a member of the range (has a personal stake in the care of that range) and pointed out to a visitor that he was breaking the rules. He tried to do it in a polite way. When someone with authority pointed out the rules, the moron threw a fit and left.

Rational people, when they discover they are breaking a rule apologize and try to rectify it. Rational people don't act like 2 year olds when told the rules to which they agreed.

Apparently their are a lot of irrational people on this board who support throwing a fit.

CountGlockula
January 22, 2008, 02:58 PM
Great job Mr. Rev!

Those that work at indoor/outdoor ranges appreciate well educated shooters like you, because most Range Safety Officer can't see EVERYTHING that happens in the range. And you've made their job easier by enforcing the rules to incompetant shooters.

One thing about RSOs folks, is that they're doing their job to the best of their abilities. 85%-95% customer service and 15%-5% BSing with shooters. I wish it was the other way around, but rules need to be enforced; and if we have more examples like Mr. Rev-who respect the range rules and being courteous to others around him, shooting ranges would be much more of a pleasant place to be at.

PaulV
January 22, 2008, 03:00 PM
I was there shooting on the rifle range and this kid walks up during a cease fire with a ninja'd AK, action closed (1 rule broken),

I just wanted to point out to you that you can't keep the action of an AK open unless you are forcefully holding it open with your hand.

Gaiudo
January 22, 2008, 03:26 PM
I mean what says wonderful like marching into a parking lot with two loaded concealed guns to confront a guy for eating at the range? Then calling the cops on him because you heard him complaining about you to his buddy. To me that just does not seem,,,,,,,,well "friendly".

Wow.... reading comprehension? Try again.

junyo
January 22, 2008, 03:59 PM
Lessons learned:
Speech in a public location rises to such a high level of intrusion as to be equivalent to the commision of genocide ("range nazi"). Informing someone of a risk that they may not be aware of (one of the primary tools/tactics of progun persuasion) is unfriendly, unwelcome, and is best answered with belligerence. Informing your host that another guest is violating his posted rules isn't being a good guest or having manners, it's "tattling".

RKBABob
January 22, 2008, 04:17 PM
As I understand it:

Mr. Revolverguy saw someone new at the range, and decided to strike up a conversation. If I was the new guy at the range, I would appreciate the friendly response from the long-time members. It would make me very comfortable.

Mr. Revolverguy noticed him eating on the range, and gave the stranger a bit of advice on range safety. If I was the new guy, I would appreciate someone who's been there before pointing out a rule that I may not have been aware of. If I was starved, maybe I would respond by saying "Oh, I didn't think of that... I'll finish up real quick and keep it in mind for next time."

When the new guy returned the favor by being rude, Mr. Revolverguy apologised and walked away. I would have done the same as Revolverguy... no need to get into a p|$$ing match with a rude guy, especially a stranger when firearms are present.

The range officer noticed, and asked the stranger to eat elsewhere. The range officer is in charge, so do as they say. If he still didn't understand it, he could have asked why eating wasn't allowed.

The stranger threw a fit and left. It takes a lot more than the fair enforcement of an established safety rule to get me this upset.

Revolverguy goes to leave, and sees the guy outside waiting for him, and hears him point him out to a friend. Revolverguy then grows concerned, and goes back inside. I would have gone back inside, too. Maybe the rest of you would walk up to the guy and ask him "Ya got a problem, pal? Well... do ya?"

After discussing it, Revolverguy calls some friends in law enforcement to help him sort things out. Thats a prudent move. Revolverguy was being careful. The only other options available to him were to go back outside, and risk a confrontation, or stay in the range for the rest of his life.

Wedge
January 22, 2008, 04:29 PM
Last time I went shooting (about 2 weeks ago) everyone was behind the yellow line, range was cold, people were going downrange to post targets. I was seating on a chair under a tree and not going downrange (I had posted a ton of targets, we had a cease fire about 10-15 minutes prior) so I was just watching.

Sure enough, guy at the end wanted to put something back on the bench (across the yellow line). The RO yells, "Stay behind the yellow line". Most people have done this, they forgot some hearing protection or stapler or that extra target. Most people realize their goof, give the "i'm an idiot" half-wave, get back behind the line and life goes on.

Well this guy, gives the RO the NASTIEST look I have seen a person give. Then complains with his friend all the way down to post targets, then gives the guy another nasty look when the RO turned around (I should mention that the offender was about 50 years old).

What is with all this venom? He broke one of THE top safety rules at the range and got called on it. The look was one that I would reserve for someone that willfully ran over my dog or something similar.

To me it sounds like the Hamburgler is a good step or two beyond even this guy. Two people mentioned not eating at the range in a polite way and he flips out. What would the Hamburgler have done if the RO or OP had YELLED at him for an obvious safety violation?

Quigley
January 22, 2008, 04:39 PM
"You cant fix stupid"

Way to keep your head and leave it to the authorities.

Headless
January 22, 2008, 04:39 PM
A couple of weekends ago out at the local outdoor public range, my girlfriend and I were shooting handguns and my .22 rifle. She was set up at the very end of the range shooting with the .22 rifle scoped at about 50 yards. I glanced over and see a young woman and her boyfriend arrive with some handguns and get themselves set up on the bench. After another magazine or two, i glance over again (they are between my GF and I so i see them when i look at her shooting) and the young woman is standing in 'sprint' position at the very end of the bench, looking like she's about to run out on the HOT range to place a target! About 10 foot away and between her and the targets, my lady is shooting away, focused on the target through her scope but eyeing the woman sideways too. I yell down to the young woman, "you don't want to do that while the range is hot, wait until it goes COLD to put up targets.". she looks at me with a combative glare and says "i KNOW". I shrug and say "okay!" and go back to shooting. 20 seconds later i look over and the woman has walked directly across my lady's line of sight to put up a target while the range is hot and there are people actively firing! Thankfully, my lady is observant and saw her start to move - the person never even said anything before walking out on the hot range.

Some people are just complete morons. I think i'm going to write a book - "Idiocy in action at shooting ranges" and chronicle the acts of stupidity. Only problem is, the gun grabbers would use it as justification to ban something somewhere for someone...

XD Fan
January 22, 2008, 05:27 PM
Mr. Rev (the OP) said:

This dude turns to me and says you know you should really mind your own business. I then apologized and walked back over to my area shaking my head. I guess the range officer must have finally seen this from the booth because we have cameras on the range and he came out and told the guy no food or drinks allowed there is a sign right before you walk in.

I do not get where Mr. Rev could be perceived as tattling.
???

Sam1911
January 22, 2008, 06:08 PM
I do not get where Mr. Rev could be perceived as tattling.
???

He can't be, of course, but saying that is did is a necessary factual shift in order to promote and develop the argument we're having.

You can't have a flame war without a point of contention, no matter how contrived it may be.

Didn't you read the manual on these things?






:rolleyes: ;)

-Sam

lonegunman
January 22, 2008, 10:39 PM
As much as I promote gun ownership and protection of the 2nd, some people just do not belong on the range. So you "promote" gun ownership, but only if you approve of the owner?So today at the club (indoor range very nice with awesome ventilation) this guy walks in with his firearms and ammunition. He is shooting a 300winmag, a 357 lead bullets, and I think it was a 41 or 44 magnum taurus with lead bullets. Sounds good so far right well I turn around and this guy is eating a hamburger and drinking coffee in between reloads.Why is this any of your business really? If you cannot politely correct him just go tattle already. So I say he seems like a nice guy. I walk over and say he man how are ya. We introduce ourselves and I decide well just go back to shooting so I go back to my lane. You pester the guy for a few minutes and fail to bring up the eating, why not? Well after 10 minutes of watching this guy load up his magazines and taking bites of this burger and drinking this coffee I walk over and say hey you should really be careful. I would not eat or drink out here. I know there is no smoke in the air but I am sure there is plenty of lead particles in the air and possibly on your hands. This dude turns to me and says you know you should really mind your own business. First of all, what magazines are loaded for revolvers? Second of all, why are you eyeballing the guy for ten minutes? Do you go there to shoot or eyeball people?I then apologized and walked back over to my area shaking my head. I guess the range officer must have finally seen this from the booth because we have cameras on the range and he came out and told the guy no food or drinks allowed there is a sign right before you walk in.I do not find this in the least bit believable, you keep walking over bothering a guy and the range officer who is your buddy magically appears as soon as you are done pestering him? Please He actually gets pissed packs up his stuff walks out slams the door goes up to the cash register and asked for his money back and the club refused, honestly which I was very proud of because he had been there for 30 minutes already, He had been there for 30 minutes, you have appraoched him twice for probably 10 minutes of unwanted attention and been eyeballing him for ten minutes as well, then the RO stops out. How much of his 30 minutes do you think he actually got to use shooting? If it was so important to your and the RO to keep the guy from shooting, why cheat him out of 15 dollars?and non members pay advanced by the hour which is $14.95. So after I am done the range officer and I are talking about this and mentioned he never seen these guys before. Does he have to know you to shoot there? You do not appear to spend a lot of time shooting as you were done so fast he was still in the parking lotI walk out the door and there he is standing with another guy next to his dodge ram dually. I decided it was best to go back into the club and avoid a confrontation. Why would there be a confrontation, according to your story this guy was simply trying to shoot and you kept pestering him for no reason, this guy only asked you to leave him alone.I told the range officer what the deal was and told him as I turned around I heard the one guy mention something to the fact that yeah that's him right there.What was the deal? What law was he breaking by talking to his buddy and what business is it of yours? Why do you think you should be involved in the operation of the range or this guys personal business? We called some friends of mine (local law enforcement) and they responded very quick like with 3 cars and told the gentlemen they had to leave. Even though I had a loaded glock 30 on my hip concealed and a S&W 642 in my inside jacket pocket I know I made the right decision. I had a safe alternative and will op for that one every time. It is just sad for me though knowing that some politicians will classify all of us in the same category as these guys and think all gun owners are like this.What catagory of guy is this? Do you hate people that want to be left alone? or is it people that eat you despise? Do you hate guys with magazine fed revolvers or what?

Just had to share this with someone, sort of bummed out by it.


I hate to be critical but something is wrong with this story. Besides being one GIANT paragraph. You kept pestering the guy and took forever to finally tell the guy about the eating policy. I think you flagged your buddy the RO to pester this guy and the two of you made it clear you would not leave him in peace and let him shoot. He opted for the polite route and asked for a refund and left. You followed him into the parking lot and you called the police on him for looking at you. All the guy did was eat at the range, what does that have to do with denying him the right to own firearms?

XD Fan
January 23, 2008, 12:22 AM
Sorry, Sam. I will make sure I get tha manual.

serrano
January 23, 2008, 01:14 AM
Nevermind this thread and the back and forth arguments - am I the only one to whom eating a burger, sipping a coffee, and enjoying my guns sounds absolutely heavenly? The only way it could be better would be on a private outdoor range on a crisp early morning. :)

OAKTOWN
January 23, 2008, 02:12 AM
This thread was beginning to get funny (albeit unintentionally), now it's just sort of sad.

Funderb
January 23, 2008, 02:22 AM
I don't think your two concealed firearms needed to be mentioned. You can't shoot someone for being a jerk, nor can you shoot them for eating in a toxic enviroment. Just as well, the fact that he asked for his money back doesn't suggest that he was going to start shooting. It seemed like you suggested that shooting him was even an option, and you may need to seriously rearrange your thinking.

evan price
January 23, 2008, 03:56 AM
Lonegunman:

As much as I promote gun ownership and protection of the 2nd, some people just do not belong on the range.
So you "promote" gun ownership, but only if you approve of the owner?
Actually, some people ARE just too stupid to be allowed to breathe let alone shoot guns...

So today at the club (indoor range very nice with awesome ventilation) this guy walks in with his firearms and ammunition. He is shooting a 300winmag, a 357 lead bullets, and I think it was a 41 or 44 magnum taurus with lead bullets. Sounds good so far right well I turn around and this guy is eating a hamburger and drinking coffee in between reloads.
Why is this any of your business really? If you cannot politely correct him just go tattle already.
Well, at first he was going to chat with the fellow. You know, converse about a shared interest? Or is that something that many people don't bother to do nowadays?

So I say he seems like a nice guy. I walk over and say he man how are ya. We introduce ourselves and I decide well just go back to shooting so I go back to my lane.
You pester the guy for a few minutes and fail to bring up the eating, why not?
They talked. Maybe he felt uncomfortable bringing it up to the guy out of the blue. Maybe he thought the guy would finish up.

Well after 10 minutes of watching this guy load up his magazines and taking bites of this burger and drinking this coffee I walk over and say hey you should really be careful. I would not eat or drink out here. I know there is no smoke in the air but I am sure there is plenty of lead particles in the air and possibly on your hands. This dude turns to me and says you know you should really mind your own business.
First of all, what magazines are loaded for revolvers? Second of all, why are you eyeballing the guy for ten minutes? Do you go there to shoot or eyeball people?
What are you implying? What are you saying? Relevance?
Did it ever occur that a polite warning from a fellow shooter BEFORE official notice has been taken might be something most people would want?

I then apologized and walked back over to my area shaking my head. I guess the range officer must have finally seen this from the booth because we have cameras on the range and he came out and told the guy no food or drinks allowed there is a sign right before you walk in.
I do not find this in the least bit believable, you keep walking over bothering a guy and the range officer who is your buddy magically appears as soon as you are done pestering him? Please
If you don't believe it, it must of not happened. I am frankly surprised the RO didn't notice it as soon as he unwrapped his McLunch. The RO at our club range would know as soon as the food was out of the car!

He actually gets pissed packs up his stuff walks out slams the door goes up to the cash register and asked for his money back and the club refused, honestly which I was very proud of because he had been there for 30 minutes already,
He had been there for 30 minutes, you have appraoched him twice for probably 10 minutes of unwanted attention and been eyeballing him for ten minutes as well, then the RO stops out. How much of his 30 minutes do you think he actually got to use shooting? If it was so important to your and the RO to keep the guy from shooting, why cheat him out of 15 dollars?
Gee, the RO never threw him out. The RO said "Don't eat in here." The McMuncher left on his own two feet without encouragement.

and non members pay advanced by the hour which is $14.95. So after I am done the range officer and I are talking about this and mentioned he never seen these guys before.
Does he have to know you to shoot there? You do not appear to spend a lot of time shooting as you were done so fast he was still in the parking lot
Irrelevant drivel...

I walk out the door and there he is standing with another guy next to his dodge ram dually. I decided it was best to go back into the club and avoid a confrontation.
Why would there be a confrontation, according to your story this guy was simply trying to shoot and you kept pestering him for no reason, this guy only asked you to leave him alone.
Gee, when a guy points at you and says "There's the so-and-so" I would be worried a little bit, too.

I told the range officer what the deal was and told him as I turned around I heard the one guy mention something to the fact that yeah that's him right there.
What was the deal? What law was he breaking by talking to his buddy and what business is it of yours? Why do you think you should be involved in the operation of the range or this guys personal business?
Why not? Would you rather wait until these two guys screw up their cojones and decide to escalate a situation? THey were no longer shooting. They had no business on the property thereafter. Sounds suspicious they are 'loitering' nearby to me.

We called some friends of mine (local law enforcement) and they responded very quick like with 3 cars and told the gentlemen they had to leave. Even though I had a loaded glock 30 on my hip concealed and a S&W 642 in my inside jacket pocket I know I made the right decision. I had a safe alternative and will op for that one every time. It is just sad for me though knowing that some politicians will classify all of us in the same category as these guys and think all gun owners are like this.
What catagory of guy is this? Do you hate people that want to be left alone? or is it people that eat you despise? Do you hate guys with magazine fed revolvers or what?
The category is large mouth, small brains, and tends to blow hard. Seen a lot of them, expecially on The Internet debating posts like this.

Just had to share this with someone, sort of bummed out by it.


I hate to be critical but something is wrong with this story. Besides being one GIANT paragraph. You kept pestering the guy and took forever to finally tell the guy about the eating policy. I think you flagged your buddy the RO to pester this guy and the two of you made it clear you would not leave him in peace and let him shoot. He opted for the polite route and asked for a refund and left. You followed him into the parking lot and you called the police on him for looking at you. All the guy did was eat at the range, what does that have to do with denying him the right to own firearms?

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
By any chance were you recently on a shooting range eating a hamburger while shooting your 300 winmag and 357 & 41 revolvers with lead bullets and had a confrontation with an RO after somebody tried to talk to you?:scrutiny:

DragonFire
January 23, 2008, 09:44 AM
One thing this thread shows is how one incident can be described two completely different ways. Supposed the OP didn't call his cop friends and instead headed to his car when the hambugler approached him (to assault him? or appologize? or talk it out?). Whatever happens and one or the other winds up shot.

Revguy tells the story like he did here, and Hambugler tells the story like Lonegunman. Which do you think the cops would believe?

I think this points out the importance of not just being in the right, but being able to articulate the way things happened and what you were thinking and feeling while it happened. One reason not to talk to the cops right after it happens or before you talk to your lawyer. Maybe the cops see it your way, or maybe they see it the way lonegunman does.

Every fact can be doubted or twisted by those that weren't there. Everything you say or don't say can't be interpretted several ways.

Waywatcher
January 23, 2008, 10:27 AM
Actually, some people ARE just too stupid to be allowed to breathe let alone shoot guns...


And I suppose you are a good judge of who should be allowed to breathe.

Eric F
January 23, 2008, 10:28 AM
After being driven from the range(where he paid 15 dollars an hour to shoot a few rounds) by overly helpful patrons and range officers the guy was in the parking lot bitching to his buddy. Is that against the law?

no not really but neither is open carry owning a ski mask or hanging around in front of a bank but put it all together and things dont look too great.

The op felt threatened thats what cops are for.

The guy broke range rules by having food on the range. Minor as it was most ranges I have been to ask you to leave for even the smallest offence of rules.

SSN Vet
January 23, 2008, 10:36 AM
as my first engineering officer used to frequently say...

"the stupid shall be punished"

The right to keep and bear arms, does not imply any such right to walk on someone elses private property and shoot them....

A business that is open to the public is private property and the business owner makes the rules.

MakAttak
January 23, 2008, 10:50 AM
as my first engineering officer used to frequently say...

"the stupid shall be punished"

Unfortunately they won't learn. >.<

Dr. Peter Venkman
January 23, 2008, 05:24 PM
I don't go to the range to get nagged over having a few bites to eat while doing so.

Lonestar49
January 23, 2008, 07:00 PM
...

Ok, then rules have no application if one doesn't agree with them..

Sounds good, no more nagging..

But, by chance, if I go shooting to some "outdoor" open range, and some guy comes up to me with a Geiger-counter and says to me, "you might want to leave, there's a lot of radiation in this area.." I sure would be glad to know that someone took the time to take a small concern about my "health".. Doc
----------------------------------------------------

Quote: By any chance were you recently on a shooting range eating a hamburger while shooting your 300 winmag and 357 & 41 revolvers with lead bullets and had a confrontation with an RO after somebody tried to talk to you? :scrutiny:
-------
...

:scrutiny: check post-reply #34



Ls

ClickClickD'oh
January 23, 2008, 08:48 PM
As odd as the sideshow has become... I do kind of want to know now about the revolver magazine discrepency..

tnieto2004
January 27, 2008, 04:35 PM
I see someone almost every time I go to the range who does something that make me cringe.

sandwich
January 28, 2008, 03:19 AM
He can't be, of course, but saying that is did is a necessary factual shift in order to promote and develop the argument we're having.

You can't have a flame war without a point of contention, no matter how contrived it may be.

Didn't you read the manual on these things?

Clearly this guy did:

As much as I promote gun ownership and protection of the 2nd, some people just do not belong on the range. So you "promote" gun ownership, but only if you approve of the owner?So today at the club (indoor range very nice with awesome ventilation) this guy walks in with his firearms and ammunition. He is shooting a 300winmag, a 357 lead bullets, and I think it was a 41 or 44 magnum taurus with lead bullets. Sounds good so far right well I turn around and this guy is eating a hamburger and drinking coffee in between reloads.Why is this any of your business really? If you cannot politely correct him just go tattle already. So I say he seems like a nice guy. I walk over and say he man how are ya. We introduce ourselves and I decide well just go back to shooting so I go back to my lane. You pester the guy for a few minutes and fail to bring up the eating, why not? Well after 10 minutes of watching this guy load up his magazines and taking bites of this burger and drinking this coffee I walk over and say hey you should really be careful. I would not eat or drink out here. I know there is no smoke in the air but I am sure there is plenty of lead particles in the air and possibly on your hands. This dude turns to me and says you know you should really mind your own business. First of all, what magazines are loaded for revolvers? Second of all, why are you eyeballing the guy for ten minutes? Do you go there to shoot or eyeball people?I then apologized and walked back over to my area shaking my head. I guess the range officer must have finally seen this from the booth because we have cameras on the range and he came out and told the guy no food or drinks allowed there is a sign right before you walk in.I do not find this in the least bit believable, you keep walking over bothering a guy and the range officer who is your buddy magically appears as soon as you are done pestering him? Please He actually gets pissed packs up his stuff walks out slams the door goes up to the cash register and asked for his money back and the club refused, honestly which I was very proud of because he had been there for 30 minutes already, He had been there for 30 minutes, you have appraoched him twice for probably 10 minutes of unwanted attention and been eyeballing him for ten minutes as well, then the RO stops out. How much of his 30 minutes do you think he actually got to use shooting? If it was so important to your and the RO to keep the guy from shooting, why cheat him out of 15 dollars?and non members pay advanced by the hour which is $14.95. So after I am done the range officer and I are talking about this and mentioned he never seen these guys before. Does he have to know you to shoot there? You do not appear to spend a lot of time shooting as you were done so fast he was still in the parking lotI walk out the door and there he is standing with another guy next to his dodge ram dually. I decided it was best to go back into the club and avoid a confrontation. Why would there be a confrontation, according to your story this guy was simply trying to shoot and you kept pestering him for no reason, this guy only asked you to leave him alone.I told the range officer what the deal was and told him as I turned around I heard the one guy mention something to the fact that yeah that's him right there.What was the deal? What law was he breaking by talking to his buddy and what business is it of yours? Why do you think you should be involved in the operation of the range or this guys personal business? We called some friends of mine (local law enforcement) and they responded very quick like with 3 cars and told the gentlemen they had to leave. Even though I had a loaded glock 30 on my hip concealed and a S&W 642 in my inside jacket pocket I know I made the right decision. I had a safe alternative and will op for that one every time. It is just sad for me though knowing that some politicians will classify all of us in the same category as these guys and think all gun owners are like this.What catagory of guy is this? Do you hate people that want to be left alone? or is it people that eat you despise? Do you hate guys with magazine fed revolvers or what?

Just had to share this with someone, sort of bummed out by it.


I hate to be critical but something is wrong with this story. Besides being one GIANT paragraph. You kept pestering the guy and took forever to finally tell the guy about the eating policy. I think you flagged your buddy the RO to pester this guy and the two of you made it clear you would not leave him in peace and let him shoot. He opted for the polite route and asked for a refund and left. You followed him into the parking lot and you called the police on him for looking at you. All the guy did was eat at the range, what does that have to do with denying him the right to own firearms?

One word: Xanax.

Note: I left the bold print out. I was too lazy to replicate it.

bloodedsky
January 28, 2008, 02:25 PM
i love the anonymous offender's being called the "Hamburgler." it made me chuckle.

don't let this incident get you down, revolverguy. things happen when dealing with joe public, ya know? just call him the "Hamburgler" inside your head, laugh, and move on from this, having learned more about the elusive north american idiot than you knew before. (well, okay, maybe not so elusive.)

Funderb
January 28, 2008, 02:29 PM
Generally it's really better to leave a person to their own devices if they pose no threat to anyone else.
Do you also go up to people who smoke cigarettes and tell them
"hey, those might give you cancer."
then stare at them until they feel awkward and violated enough to put it out.
Because it really isn't that important in the grand sceme of things.
They get lead poisoning, maybe, you don't ever see them again, who's to even know.
Try to respect other people's decisions, even if you think they are misguided.

sandwich
January 28, 2008, 05:41 PM
Generally it's really better to leave a person to their own devices if they pose no threat to anyone else.
Do you also go up to people who smoke cigarettes and tell them
"hey, those might give you cancer."
then stare at them until they feel awkward and violated enough to put it out.
Because it really isn't that important in the grand sceme of things.
They get lead poisoning, maybe, you don't ever see them again, who's to even know.
Try to respect other people's decisions, even if you think they are misguided.

If they are breaking the rules and no one steps in, it is only a matter of time before they pose a threat to someone else.

Wheeler44
January 28, 2008, 06:09 PM
I gotta say, Revolverguy and the Hamburgler are two reasons I have never shot at "range" Thank goodness I live near large tracts of public land so I don't have to be lectured on food safety or deal with people who get angry when someone is [B]meddling[B].

Funderb
January 28, 2008, 11:59 PM
When a hamburger at a range causes a reasonable situation of endangering others give me a ring, friend.

Dr. Peter Venkman
January 29, 2008, 12:56 AM
If they are breaking the rules and no one steps in, it is only a matter of time before they pose a threat to someone else.

Yeah, like eating a sandwich. :rolleyes:

SalTx
January 29, 2008, 01:52 AM
Unless someone is being dangerously careless with handling a weapon on the range, it isn't none of your business. It seems the instigator is the guy who wishes to regulate the health of another complete stranger and uses the range rules as an excuse and then gets scared about the guy being upset, and then calls the cops for help. Mind your own business, live and let live.

PurplePeopleEater
January 29, 2008, 05:22 AM
I've seen a lot of unsafe practices at the ranges I frequent, but NEVER have I seen such wanton endangerment of other's lives as you have. Eating food? WHILE SHOOTING?! Then, after you had him kicked out, he had the nerve to be upset?!?!

It's a good thing you stopped him when you did. Who knows what may have happened if he had been able to eat his cheeseburger! :eek:

gym
January 29, 2008, 12:17 PM
There are a lot of axxholes out there, you just had the misfortune of running into one, just forget about it, but you may run into this guy again, so just be aware that Bullies like that, usually don't let things go.

Wheeler44
January 29, 2008, 12:54 PM
There are a lot of axxholes out there, you just had the misfortune of running into one, just forget about it, but you may run into this guy again, so just be aware that Bullies like that, usually don't let things go.
So who are you talking to Revolverguy or the Hamburgler?

MakAttak
January 29, 2008, 12:58 PM
Unless someone is being dangerously careless with handling a weapon on the range, it isn't none of your business. It seems the instigator is the guy who wishes to regulate the health of another complete stranger and uses the range rules as an excuse and then gets scared about the guy being upset, and then calls the cops for help. Mind your own business, live and let live.

Ok, what's wrong with this:

Man eating a hamburger at the range can create a mess someone else will have to clean up. Range rules exist for a reason, this one is so that someone doesn't come to the range and get hamburger grease all over their hands.

Man has a problem being told to eat somewhere else. THEY DIDN'T EVEN TELL HIM TO LEAVE, just don't eat in here.

He stays around outside after leaving, talking about the guy he perceived as the cause of all his problems, ignoring the fact he was breaking the rules.


No wonder people don't let anyone hunt on their lands given the fact that this many gun owners feel like they can do whatever they want on someone elses property.

Colt
January 29, 2008, 01:28 PM
Could the range's no-eating rule exist to protect it from potential medical lawsuits brought by morons who will grub in the midst of lead-laden air? When this dope forgets where he lives, who's he gonna blame?

- I'll take a number 4, with cheese, and don't skimp on the heavy metal particles, please.

czdavid
January 29, 2008, 01:30 PM
...and now I'm going to jump in. A few questions:

1. Was a range rule broken? Yes.

2. Did the OP tattle on McKnucklehead? Does not appear that way. The ONLY people who know FOR SURE are the OP, the RO, and McKnuckles.

3. Was the OP being nosy? That all depends on one's definition of nosy. Some say yes he was, others say no.

4. Was law enforcement needed? Again, the ONLY people who know for sure are the OP, the RO, and McDipstick.


If a I were breaking a range rule I would want to know. At my range, we are asked (as first time shooters) to read a piece of paper with the range rules on it and sign at the bottom saying we acknowledge the rules and that we will not hold the range liable for any injury. As we all know, breaking rules comes with a penalty, and at my range the penalty is being asked to leave.

The "offender" was not asked to leave, simply to stop eating. HE got angry and LEFT the building of his own accord. If someone gets that upset when asked to stop violating a posted rule (even as "small" a violation as eating), we have to wonder just what might have happened had this been a more serious range offense.

Now, would I have called the cops? Eh.... don't really know about that one. Again, I wasn't there to judge the situation. We have to realize that the OP was doing what he thought to be best in this situation. He simply let a rule violator know of his infraction and left it at that. Why can't we leave it at that?

caltek1911
February 1, 2008, 01:21 AM
I've also been following this thread. I'm with a lot of the others and czdavid in that the OP did nothing wrong by informing the guy of the rules. It seems like lonegunman and few others are reading way too much into this and calling it as "pestering." I guess I "pester" people at the range also because I talk to other shooters.

DragonFire
February 1, 2008, 12:01 PM
I've seen longunman refer to this "pestering" in other threads as well.

I don't know anymore. Aren't rules supposed to be followed? Or just the rules we agree with, or just the ones that "don't hurt anyone else"?

And even if the OP "snitched" on the hamburgler (which he didn't) is that wrong too? Trying to get others to follow the same rules we do, is wrong?

So remind me again, are the actions preached about on THR part of the answer or part of the problem with society?

Funderb
February 1, 2008, 02:25 PM
The problem I have, I don't know about anyone else, is that the OP considered using his concealed weapons to "convince" the "hamburgler" to leave the range, but called the police instead. In NO way would a private citizen using their firearm to threaten someone who had shown no outward threat of violence, be an option even worth spitting on. I don't know if that was an outward attempt to be suave or "cool" but it fails either way.
Everything else seems to be in order.

Ske1etor
February 1, 2008, 02:28 PM
Could the range's no-eating rule exist to protect it from potential medical lawsuits brought by morons who will grub in the midst of lead-laden air? When this dope forgets where he lives, who's he gonna blame?

- I'll take a number 4, with cheese, and don't skimp on the heavy metal particles, please.

I was just about to post this. This is the reason food, drinks and smoking is not allowed on the firing line at your local range or even in the room if it is an indoor. Lead settles on everything and ingesting lead is extremely dangerous. He broke a rule, if he broke one he was most likely going to break another at some point. The rules are there for a reason, and that reason is not "to be broken".

Snowdiver
February 1, 2008, 02:59 PM
I hate rules. If I have to follow the rules then you do to. No one is above the rules. Anarchy is always an option.

Rachen
February 1, 2008, 03:04 PM
Guns can make people stupid.

Gun BANS can make people stupid............They make people think that it's okay to give up their guns. Someone else will protect them all the time.

I was saddened when I read your story though. Don't we have enough animosity between gun owners now. Why do we need any more like this?
Apparently that guy is stupid. Probably not even concerned with 2nd Amendment rights and how forces are threatening it.

DragonFire
February 1, 2008, 04:19 PM
The problem I have, I don't know about anyone else, is that the OP considered using his concealed weapons to "convince" the "hamburgler" to leave the range

Where in the world did you get THAT from? The OP said that when he went to leave the range and spotted the hambugler sitting outside the range, he went back into the range EVEN THOUGH he was armed.

So now the OP not only pestered the guy, but was going to get him to not only stop eating, but to also leave the range at gun point???? WOW, my reading comprehension must be terrible. Even after rereading the opening post I didn't understand he did all that!

highorder
February 1, 2008, 04:20 PM
Quote:
Could the range's no-eating rule exist to protect it from potential medical lawsuits brought by morons who will grub in the midst of lead-laden air? When this dope forgets where he lives, who's he gonna blame?

- I'll take a number 4, with cheese, and don't skimp on the heavy metal particles, please.

I was just about to post this. This is the reason food, drinks and smoking is not allowed on the firing line at your local range or even in the room if it is an indoor. Lead settles on everything and ingesting lead is extremely dangerous. He broke a rule, if he broke one he was most likely going to break another at some point. The rules are there for a reason, and that reason is not "to be broken".


lead poisining takes years to manifest symptoms, unless you are actually eating your ammunition, not to mention the actual absorption of lead varies with age, gender, and other factors.

There are some valid concerns in this thread, but lead poisioning and the aftermath are not.

DragonFire
February 1, 2008, 04:33 PM
The "fact" that lead poisoning takes "years" to show symptons (which I'm not sure it does), the fact is that you can ingest lead while from eating at the range. You may not end up "poisoned", but it's not good for you, and if you can avoid it, you should.

It may take years for symptoms from smoking to appear, but that doesn't make smoking any safer.

Besides it's not a question if the guy should have been eating or not. It's still against the rules. If the range wanted to make a rule against wearing suspenders they could and people would still have to follow it if they wanted to use the range.

And no matter if it was actually safe or not, the OP thought that it wasn't and tried to give friendly advise.

highorder
February 1, 2008, 04:54 PM
Besides it's not a question if the guy should have been eating or not. It's still against the rules.

I agree. that why I said,

There are some valid concerns in this thread, but lead poisioning and the aftermath are not.


I didn't say lead ingestion was impossible, or safe. I did suggest that the hazards are overstated these days. MY job depends on accurate assesment of risks, including lead exposure. We agree that the issue is the breaking of range rules.

The "fact" that lead poisoning takes "years" to show symptons (which I'm not sure it does)

I am apparently more sure than you are, thats all. Relatively large doses of lead can be ingested and not absorbed into the body with no short term affects. Long term neurological damage is the chief concern of lead exposure.

there is some great information available here:

http://mayoclinic.com/health/lead-poisoning/FL00068/DSECTION=1

Ed Ames
February 1, 2008, 05:00 PM
The OP should've followed rule 0.

Don't be a busybody.

Yeah, eating in a lead-contaminated environment is dumb. So is shooting at all according to some people.

Life would be a lot more pleasant for everyone learned to disregard their busybody impulses and let others be. Don't try to save them from their smoking, from their drinking, from their eating, from their shooting, from their bad relationship choices, from their poor financial choices, from... from themselves. It ain't your job and you won't get a lick of thanks... won't get it, don't deserve it.

Information about the toxicity of lead is widely available to everyone. It is extremely unlikely that anyone in the western world is unaware that lead exposure is a health risk. If someone has chosen to accept some lead exposure, well, that's their lookout.

Oh, and for the record... yes, lead poisoning can be accute and immediate. There are quite a few reported cases of individuals suffering from lead poisoning due to hobby activities. Specifically, casting sailboat keels (shaped lead ingots weighing anywhere from 5,000 to 17,000 pounds) using bathtubs and similar to handle the molten metal, when the casting is done in insufficiently ventilated spaces (usually indoors, though a few reports have come from fenced yards on still days). Several hobbiests have caused themselves multi-year medical headaches of the worst sort by improperly handling lead in those volumes. Of course others have been killed by having the lead ingots fall on them. Hobies are often dangerous.

Of course, most lead poisoning comes from prolonged exposure. Look at the medical histories of people who worked at early tetra-ethyl lead plants... a disproportionately high number of "mental health" issues. Arguably anyone over about 15 has received far more lead exposure from leaded gasoline than any amount of eating at shooting ranges could cause.

I wouldn't eat at an indoor shooting range (I don't even like breathing at indoor shooting ranges) but then again I wouldn't smoke either. That doesn't give me grounds to be a busybody.

Zoogster
February 1, 2008, 05:14 PM
Much fewer laws and restrictions were necessary when people could accept minimal positive criticism of thier actions.

Now people get all uptight and consider anyone that gives them any criticism to be the bad guy. See a guy waiving a gun around, or being dangerous? Tell him that is unsafe and now you have an armed careless individual upset with you.
They are infringing on others rights to be safe. "Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" is a right others should enjoy.
Since people are less able to accept criticisim the guy that might have just been more safe is not confronted, and instead employees are told, or new rules are adopted that prohibit various actions.
Instead of a non issue that is remedied you end up with fewer freedoms at the range.

Inform someone that eating food while handling lead with the same fingers might be bad for thier health? "Mind your own business", you are now the bad guy.
While that might be unsafe, it really is thier own decision, and I respect it, just like I respect thier decision to use anything that might be harmful to them if they respect others rights.
However informing someone of something potentialy hazardous to insure they know the decision they are making is nothing worthy of taking offense.

I dislike people believing they have a right to impose thier views on others if thier actions are not potentialy infringing on others rights. However at the same time someone politely giving criticism in a non confrontational way before continuing on thier own way has done nothing wrong. We can disagree and ignore it, or consider it and disagree, or agree and potential benefit. No harm is done.

That is called communication. If more people communicated less people would go and create laws limiting our liberties. Labeling others "busy bodies" and other terms is just going to cause people to go around you and impose thier beliefs on you through legislation (or new range rules etc) rather than voicing them through communication.

Vicious-Peanut
February 1, 2008, 05:16 PM
I haven't read the whole thread, but have a story that happened last Saturday. I was at the range I frequent and they have about 10 50 yards benches and 30 100 yard benches. The 50 yard benches were all taken and there were two groups that each wanted one so they waited a few minutes and when I turned around there were a bunch of range officers telling all of them to leave. My father was shooting very close to where it happened so he told me they started arguing and one of then pushed another. I was pleased with how the range handled it, but the funny part of it all is that the cease fire two minutes after they had to leave yielded four free benches.


People that cannot refrain themselves over something as trivial as shooting benches do not belong on a range in my opinion.

Ed Ames
February 1, 2008, 05:36 PM
Zoog,

Fewer laws and restrictions were necessary when laws and restrictions were primarily to protect people from each other. It has nothing to do with accepting criticism and everything to do with what you think is legitimate to control.

At one point you could sell anything you wanted so long as you didn't force the buyers to buy whatever you sold. Want to sell rotten meat? Go right ahead so long as you don't force the buyer to accept rotten meat. Don't want to buy rotten meat? Don't. Caveat Emptor.

That went away and the justification was that it was too difficult for each buyer to individually exercise full dilligence. The buyer couldn't beware so laws were needed. A sort of collective wariness was legislated where sellers were restricted in what they could sell. Caveat Emptor became Caveat Venditor... the burden is on the vendor (and the government enforcers) with penalties for selling less than expected products.

Now, however, people are trying to use the law to control areas of behavior that should not be legally regulated. The types of substances you can consume as food or for recreation. The type of intercourse you may engage in with a consenting adult. On and on.

It doesn't matter how well people can take criticism. These busybody laws are entirely infringement on liberty and they are not necessary no matter how you measure it.

Trying to twist it around and say that it's the free person's fault that laws are necessary because they don't take cricisim is as strange as it is illogical. They don't need to take criticim and they don't need to do what others tell them to do... if they are free.

The real issue is that some people aren't happy knowing that someone else is exercising freedom when they don't.

yakkingallover
February 1, 2008, 06:03 PM
I am new here but have followed this thread and have been shooter for a few years. In regards to comments of the OP minding his own business about someone elses burger I would have to say beyond someones right to eat smoke,drink or ingest lead it comes down to the fact that if I or any other person in that range happened to set a case,firearm or foot down on some mayo,onions or anything else from a burger it would anger me as much as someone bugging me about eating. What about my rights and the rights of other shooters who obey the rules to not have our fun with other peoples mess involved. I do not want my 1911 with a side of ketchup.

Ed Ames
February 1, 2008, 06:17 PM
Yakking....

That's not an issue.

Eating on the range was against the business's rules. The business made the rules and therefore had the responsibility for enforcing them. The business (eventually) did so.

They were minding their own business. Literally.

The OP, on the other hand, wasn't minding his own business. He was minding everyone else's. His business was to use, and take care of, his guns and to have a good time/learn a lot, perhaps making friends along the way. He wasn't doing that... instead he was trying to do the job of the range owner or the other shooter. He was minding everyone else's business instead of his own.

He shouldn't have been minding everyone else's business.

Why not?

Well, for one... if he hadn't decided to play volunteer unpaid range employee the burger-eater wouldn't have thought himself "turned in" by the busybody. It wouldn't have been a confrontation between customers. The burger eater might have realized that it was a simple violation of the owner's rules instead of some jerk trying to mess up his lunch/shooting break.

For another.... if he hadn't decided to play safety tzar he might've made a friend who, after being told not to eat in here by the range operator, might have been receptive to a "well, you know, they're probably worried about lead affecting your health...."

The list goes on.

Your business includes taking care of your guns, yes... but the busybody's guns weren't endangered by burger-eater's hamburger. Maybe a future customer's would've been... in that case it's the range's responsibility (caveat venditor) to clean the range, and the range customer who was assigned that shooting position's right to complain, if the issue came up.

There is absolutely no evidence the issue ever would've come up though. That's unsubstanciated speculation. It is exactly like saying, "I don't want you to have a gun because you might shoot my kids." We complain when people use those arguments against us as gun owners... we can't turn around and use them against other people without endangering our own rights by legitimizing an incorrect argument.

lonegunman
February 1, 2008, 06:21 PM
DIE thread,,,,,,,die



I stick with my original position. PESTERING is walking over and interupting a guy you do not know more than once in an hour. Especially if you walk over and run your gob for 10 minutes and never mention any real or percieved rule violations. Revolverguy said the Hamburglar was there for 30 whopping minutes. He pestered the guy for 10 of them and then tattled and then followed him to the parking lot of all things.

He never once mentions the guy saying or doing anything in the least bit threatening and yet he calls the cops on him. Revolverguy interupted him over and over, followed him into the parking lot and called the cops. This guy ate a burger.

As far as some peoples fixation with the guys eating. What is it any business of yours? What the heck kind of burger do you eat that makes such a mess strangers cry and go tattle? Other than correcting a rule violation for eating the guy should have been left alone. And as I said before, that would be a 20 second chat for someone normally inclined. Besides it will be twenty years before this causes him brain damage, it was not like he was playing with a new chinese toy for god sakes.

Shooting in particular and the world in general would be a better place if people would mind their own business, keep right except to pass, use a blinker, refrain from offering their opinions on religon or politics and resolve trival issues without beating around the bush or calling the cops.

If a guy eating a burger and loading revolver magazines ( and YES Revolverguy said he was loading his magazines for his revolvers) is so scary you gotta roll three cars, maybe you live in a town full of sissies.

langenc
February 1, 2008, 09:38 PM
I know the Range safety Officer course tell you:
Wash hands (cold water) after shooting, change clothes after shooting, no smoking, no eating etc etc around the range.

When I was in college we went TO the range with brown bag lunch. Shot or coached someone and then went to classes all afternoon AND then to work for 4-5 hrs.

But I guess we must be careful.

Mr.Revolverguy
February 1, 2008, 09:49 PM
Little did I know this would cause this sort of reaction. I had not responded because I was hoping this thread would just die as well. But I do want to clear up a few things because it seems to me as if my integrity is being questioned. When I mentioned loading his magazines he was loading his 300win mag magazines. No matter what some may think I did not say one word to range officer either.

As I stated in the previous post (not the original) the gentleman would walk over and stand behind me and watch me shoot as he loaded his magazines. This was the only reason I approached the guy in the first place. I usually never just blindly walk over to someone just to introduce myself on the range.

Also I could have just kept right on to my car which they were parked right next to and risked a confrontation putting his and my life at danger as well as my career but it was not worth it to me.

I would also like to say that though it has seemed at times that I was attacked here by some who seemed to have not read or comprehended my post, I am by no means angry at any of them including lonegunman. Thats why I love this great country we all have the right to free expression and thought. I served and dedicated 20 years of my life to protecting those rights against all enemies foreign and domestic and would do it all over again if I had to.

Though lonegunman thinks I am nosey and a busy body it is my right to disagree and is ok for us to disagree.

BobbyQuickdraw
February 1, 2008, 09:59 PM
I told the range officer what the deal was and told him as I turned around I heard the one guy mention something to the fact that yeah that's him right there.

If this part of the original post is true, then calling the cops is justifiable, if not something everyone agrees with.

Other than that, I'm keeping out of this thread.

Mr.Revolverguy
February 1, 2008, 10:47 PM
Very much so true BobbyQuickdraw. There was body language that went along with it as well, which is hard to express and explain to others via written communication.

Anonymous Coward
February 1, 2008, 10:53 PM
He pestered the guy for 10 of them and then tattled and then followed him to the parking lot of all things.

Wrong. He walked out the door and the Hamburglar guy was waiting for him, with another guy.

Other than correcting a rule violation for eating the guy should have been left alone.

Wrong again. The Hamburglar chose to throw a little tantrum when the RO told him he couldn't eat on the range, demanded his money back, and then went outside...to wait in the parking lot for the OP.

That's excessive. That's weird. That's a precursor to an act of violence. That's a sign of an unstable guy who's decided he needs to pack a piece in his pocket so he won't ever again have to take any crap off anybody.

JenW
February 2, 2008, 02:23 AM
I live in a rural part of my state somewhere between Moronville and Idiot's Delight; therefore, I've seen my share of stupid people--even around firearms. If that guy was too stubborn, pigheaded, ignorant, or defiant to follow the rules, then he definitely didn't need to be there. It takes respect of oneself, others, and the tools at hand to maintain a safe and productive environment. There are stupid people everywhere you go, and most of the time, you can't cure stupid. Being stupid is willingly being ignorant.

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