Range Rules & CCW


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Treo
January 20, 2008, 09:18 AM
My local shooting range has a the range rules very clearly posted at the entrance to the range. One of the rules is that all weapons must be unloaded until you are actually on the firing line, and at anytime someone is down range. I understand these rules and am willing to comply W/ them up to a point, the point being I have my CWP & I carry every where I am legally allowed to carry . The other point that I balk at is that I don't know most of the people that use this range ( most are active or retired military & present no worries) & I've already had one range commando tell me how he could disarm me at will . That said I follow a practice of always having one weapon loaded at all times while on the range, and I caution my wife ( also a CHP holder ) to do the same. Am I being paranoid ? How does everyone else deal W/ similar situations? EDITED TO ADD the gun club is in a pretty rural area & the range is almost a mile from the club house so if you're on the range alone you are ALONE

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Creature
January 20, 2008, 09:26 AM
Range rules are ranges rules. Comply or do not use that range.

The Lone Haranguer
January 20, 2008, 09:29 AM
Shoot your other guns and have a holstered carry gun - to remain holstered unless needed - in reserve. Concealed means concealed, as they say. The rules are meant to avoid accidents while handling or shooting firearms and as such are perfectly reasonable, but a holstered gun is not going to go off by itself.

ilbob
January 20, 2008, 09:29 AM
a rule is a rule. if you want to belong to the club and/or use their range, its part of the deal.

if it really bugs you, you might want to talk to the people running the club about it. its also possible you are misreading the rule.

its a very common rule to have cold ranges. it is a legitimate safety protocol for the same reason that uspsa (and probably all other action shooting sports) does not allow loaded weapons at matches except when actually shooting.

Javelin
January 20, 2008, 09:31 AM
I have to disagree. Concealed means concealed. If you carry your concealed firearm you just do not shoot that weapon at the range.


EDIT: Too long on the trigger before firing... Lone beat me to the post!!!!

But my thoughts on the matter still stand.


:)

Infidel
January 20, 2008, 09:34 AM
Have you discussed this with club officers and/or range officers? At the clubs where I am a member, the same rules exist, but do not apply to concealed handguns carried by permit holders. That is actually made clear in the full version of the rules now, but was not a few years ago, although the policy was the same then. The exception for CCW does not apply at formal shooting matches, though. It's worth asking about. My clubs also make it clear that concealed is concealed....

xsquidgator
January 20, 2008, 09:42 AM
You bet I do (and almost every shooter I know as well)! It's an unfortunate reality that it is *possible* that your firearms could be the target of a criminal, with only you being in the way. It would be foolish to not be alert to the possibility, especially when simply keeping a firearm ready to go just in case will go such a long way towards helping to keep you safe. We just have to accept that we need to be alert and that we may need to defend ourselves and our firearms from attack/robbery.

I comply with range rules, but there is at least one place locally where I won't go because of this kind of issue. Here in central Florida, about a year ago there was a group of thugs who specifically targeted people shooting at local ranges. "Robbers target shooters" (http://www.local6.com/news/10962467/detail.html) They would follow them home, in one case over 20 miles away, and then stage a SWAT-style armed robbery on their victim as soon as he pulled into the driveway. Like 4 armed thugs swoop in behind you, block you in your driveway, and suddenly you're looking down the barrels of 4 guns drawn on you. They got away with several of these, and , it could easily happen again.

Since this is a clear case of an ounce of being prepared being worth a pound of "cure", and it's easy to do, since these local incidents I
- like you, I keep a CCW ready, or keep at least one firearm with loaded magazine(s) ready to go. But don't stop there.

-always leave the range with at least one firearm ready to go, don't EVER shoot all the ammo I came with
-when I go to my club range (rural) which allows long guns, I try to bring at least one suitable long gun and keep it with me (not in the trunk), especially on the trip back. This is one of the types of situations in mind for which people pack a "truck gun" or a "trunk gun". You need to be aware of local laws, since this may not be legal in all places. My understanding of my locality law is that loaded long guns are not ok, even with CWP. But, nothing says I can't have an unloaded long gun with one or two magazines nearby, plus my CCW.
-I'm much more attentive, especially on the return trip home. Anyone possibly following me? If so, I don't care if it looks paranoid, I take a detour, do a couple of turns, and make sure I'm not being followed to my house.
-As soon as I get near the house, I open the garage door with the clicker, drive in, and shut the garage door as soon as I'm in, watching the rearview mirror.

Of course this hasn't been necessary, strictly speaking, since no one's tried to rob me, yet. But I feel much more prepared and ready now that I've developed these habits that don't cost anything and don't hurt anything/anyone.

The Lone Haranguer
January 20, 2008, 09:45 AM
Have you discussed this with club officers and/or range officers?
Agreed. If you haven't done so already, you might want to have a "sit-down" with the management and ask for clarification, as well as report the incident(s) with the weirdo(s).

sacp81170a
January 20, 2008, 10:42 AM
I've already had one range commando tell me how he could disarm me at will .

Not unless he's an LEO acting within his jurisdiction and the scope of his duties, he can't. The best the property owner can do is ask you to leave and then file charges for trespassing if you refuse to do so. Any stranger on the range who walked up to me and insisted that I hand over my loaded CCW firearm would get a blunt refusal and a laugh. That said, you should really clarify what the owner of the range means. I shoot regularly at an indoor range that doesn't allow "draw and shoot" practice. They "bend" the rules for local LEO's that they're familiar with so we can practice for qualification, but only when no one else is using the range. Otherwise, we comply with the rules.

brickeyee
January 20, 2008, 10:45 AM
They are trying to run a 'cold range' for safety.
It is their option.

Cold ranges DO have advantages when inexperienced people may be present.
I know how to handle a gun, you know how to handle a gun.
That does not mean that someone shooting a gun for the first time would be a good idea on a 'hot' range.

Change the rules or leave.

TexasRifleman
January 20, 2008, 10:50 AM
Concealed means concealed. That sign is for the guns you will be shooting.

I always wear my CCW at the ranges with signs like this, and it stays concealed.

Where's the problem again?

orionengnr
January 20, 2008, 11:01 AM
Yes, by all means, make sure you understand the rules as they are intended, not necesarily as they are written. By this I mean: ask the questions and find out.

My local range has a similar sign, but after I asked, I found that they have no problem wih a CHL or an LEO maintaining a loaded concealed weapon. Key word--concealed. It is a don't ask, don't tell situation in reverse--if you don't ask, they won't tell you.

The rule was written for the people who walk in with a range bag--none of those in the bag may be loaded.

Now I walk in (and out) with a bag of empties, and an ace in the hole :)

It was actually reading about that business in Florida (BGs following the guy home from the range) that got me thinking and asking the questions.

Communication is a good thing.

ravnew
January 20, 2008, 11:23 AM
At the OSA range I belong to CCW holders are allowed to keep a loaded, concealed and holstered weapon on them at the range as long as it stays holstered. There is some talk about designating two points for CCW holders to use just to unload and load their CCW's in the event that they want to get some practice in with them.

Treo
January 20, 2008, 12:01 PM
My range doesn't have range officers per sť 99% of the time safe range practices are followed & as I pointed out the pistol/rifle range is way out on the butt end of nowhere my CCW stays concealed while I am at the range and I never leave W/ a paper weight

GRIZ22
January 20, 2008, 12:08 PM
Having all guns unloaded until they are on the firing line is a common range rule, CCP or not. This may be required for insurance reasons and even if it isn't it's not a bad idea. I was a LE Firearms Instructor and reuiqred all agnets to unload before coming on the line and leave the line with an empty firearm.

Don't go to that range if it bothers you that much.

DFW1911
January 20, 2008, 12:21 PM
Concealed means concealed. That sign is for the guns you will be shooting.

I always wear my CCW at the ranges with signs like this, and it stays concealed.


+1; the range I go to spells this out pretty clearly.

Thanks,
DFW1911

fearless leader
January 20, 2008, 12:24 PM
I carry everywhere I can get away with.

If I cannot be charged with a crime, I am packing something, even at the beach.

If I am at a pool, something is close by. In the shower, something close by (I have actually had someone attempt to break in while I was in the bathroom). If in bed, no telling.

What they don't know won't hurt them. Just conceal well.

I read your original post after that happened. Just be a duck and let it roll off of your back. Don't let some loud mouthed A hole destroy your confidence. He was just shooting off at the mouth.

Point of fact 1: most people can be disarmed.
Point of fact 2: it is easy to get killed trying point of fact 1.

Javelin
January 20, 2008, 12:26 PM
Don't go to that range if it bothers you that much.

I think the jist is that it does not bother anyone. Just keep your CCW concealed and no one is the wiser, which is the same at a mall, wal-mart, or bookstore.

:)

alligator94
January 20, 2008, 12:40 PM
I used to go to a range that did not allow any holstered weapons, especialy no CCW. (This was in MD however) This rule also applied to any and all law enforcement, I have seen them kick out more than one for refusing to disarm.

RPCVYemen
January 20, 2008, 01:11 PM
My local shooting range has a the range rules very clearly posted at the entrance to the range.

Ask wether that included CCW. Most ranges have faced this issue, and have some kind of policy.

Also, understand if the range does not make an exception for CCW. There - as far as I know - no implication that holding a CCW implies any training in safe handling if weapons. My guess, and this is anecdotal - I haven't seen the stats, the cast majority of ND happen either when weapons are being cleaned or holstered/unholstered.

A lot of folks that wear weapons in holsters don't really understand how difficult muzzle control can be when drawing weapon on a firing line (for example shoulder holsters and cross-draw).

A lot of ranges don't want you shooting yourself on their range - it will wreak havoc with their insurance company, even if you don't sue.

So ranges have good reason to be paranoid about CCW. I shoot at range where only LEOs can carry loaded weapons behind the firing line, and another where CCW is OK.

Mike

Treo
January 20, 2008, 03:22 PM
The first thing I want to ask is of all the people who are telling my to abide by the range rules period, how many of you have a CHP & how many are cops? Second I want to clarify 60% of the time the wife & I got to this range we are alone on the range, in that case no question, I carry. I do NOT practice quick draws on the range REGARDLESS of who else is there and my CCW stays concealed while I am on the range if I choose to pratice W/ my CCW I walk to the end of the range unholster and switch to fmj rounds before shooting And I want to say it again the range I practice on is waaaaaaaaay out on the butt end of nowhere there's nothing to stop someone W/ criminal intent from walking over the berm . I don't see that I am endangering anyone.

Creature
January 20, 2008, 03:59 PM
I was one of those who advised in previous posts that you comply with the range's rules...and I have a CHL.

Until you address this issue with the range owner, I would still advise that you not carry your weapon on the range...unless you want to possibly run the risk of being banned from the range and/or having a complaint filed against you by the owner. If you want to play on their court, you've got to play by their rules.

Sam1911
January 20, 2008, 04:49 PM
Concealed is concealed.

The weapon you are carrying for personal protection is NOT in play or (ethically, at least) under the range's firearms handling rules.

If you are planning to shoot your carry weapon, then clear it and treat it like any other gun. If you finish your session by stepping to the line and drawing your concealed pistol from under your coat and ripping off a few drills, then you have violated the range rules and deserved to be kicked out.

Unless you are in a legal jurisdiction where a property owner's demand that you disarm carries some legal weight, then your concealed weapon is NONE of his/her/their concern. If you were entering a restaurant, store, office, etc. that had "no guns" signs posted, would you, in your state, be obligated to disarm? If not, then their restrictions and rules apply only to your conduct and handling of the weapons you are using their range to shoot.

If you are "made"/spotted carrying, a range officer COULD require that you disarm or leave. And you would have to or be subject to charges of trespassing. If your weapon stays concealed then you harm no one and break no laws.

This seems like a very simple point. As TXRifleman said, "Where's the problem, again?"

-Sam

Zedicus
January 20, 2008, 05:23 PM
There is one range south of Boise that is run by a BP & Muzzle Loader Club (Bunch of FUD's I'm told), I'm told they actually have "No Concealed Weapons" signs up in addition to Range Rules like these, as well as a Rule that any loaded Firearm must have the muzzle pointed Skyward unless you are shooting at a target downrange (Dangerous IMHO) due to Concrete Floors.

The part about the "No Concealed Weapons" signs is Unconfirmed btw as I can't be bothered wasting the $25 worth of fuel driving all the way out there.

kd7nqb
January 20, 2008, 06:04 PM
My range has similar rules but theirs specifically says NO CCW. I happen to chat with the owner about this she mentioned that it was due to their insurance requirements.

TexasRifleman
January 20, 2008, 06:05 PM
I happen to chat with the owner about this she mentioned that it was due to their insurance requirements.

My gut tells me that's just a handy excuse.

Range owner: I'd like to buy some insurance for my shooting range.
Underwriter: OK, but you can't allow anyone with loaded guns into your shooting range.
Range owner: OK, I have an ice cream store next door, what about that?
Underwriter: Sure, loaded guns are no problem in there, of course.
:scrutiny:

I just don't see any reasoning behind this applying to a concealed carrier's carry weapon.

Don Carter
January 20, 2008, 06:22 PM
What do the requirements of your ccp say. Carrying in accordance with those rules in my opinion is the logical answer. My permit says I can carry in any place I can legally be......except at facilities containing elected government officials meeting in an official capacity...... and a few other specific places like dirt floor bars...... OR WHERE OTHERWISE POSTED.... like our local movie theater and my gun range.

I do have a choice of complying or not, depending on whether I am willing to break the law.

GRIZ22
January 20, 2008, 10:15 PM
Range owner: I'd like to buy some insurance for my shooting range.
Underwriter: OK, but you can't allow anyone with loaded guns into your shooting range.


That's not very realistic. They might say no loaded guns off the firing line.

ornithoid
January 20, 2008, 10:41 PM
Treo, I'm with you.

I NEVER go shooting without keeping a CCW gun on me that does not come out (or get divulged) during my entire trip. To me, it's common sense. Would you want to walk out to the parking lot and be ... divested of your guns because you had nothing with which to protect them?

It's been said, "The rules are the rules; comply or go elsewhere."

Where have I heard that before? Oh yes, that's right, it's what they tell us when gun ownership, or CCW, is banned in a given state or city. I guess we should just do what they say until our right to own or carry them at all is just obliterated everywhere.

Nuh-uh. Not me, thanks.

B yond
January 20, 2008, 10:53 PM
I keep my carry gun concealed and loaded unless it's the one I'm shooting, in which case I always have a loaded mag in reserve for it or a BUG, should I need to prevent someone from doing something stupid. That said, I don't shoot at a public range with rules forbidding my actions; I shoot in designated outdoor shooting areas where there are no rules (aside from the law).

Most ranges I've tried didn't allow the use of holsters, drawing from concealment, or rapid fire, which kind of defeats the whole purpose of practice for me. Besides, how many of us have seen someone new to shooting or just plain dumb doing something dangerous at a public range? I don't trust range-jockeys or chairborne commandos enough to be around them unarmed.

Also I would hold myself responsible for anything evil done with my weapons should they be pilfered, so I don't take them out unless I'm prepared to prevent their theft.

Wolfgang2000
January 21, 2008, 12:20 AM
I always found it easier to get forgiveness than permission. Just don't flaunt it.

Jon Coppenbarger
January 21, 2008, 12:48 AM
which range is this that has that problem? it sound like either CRC or ben lomond from the large range area you describe.
Have you asked the board to be more specific on what the rules of CCW is in there club.
I know frontier in the springs allows it and so does buffalo creek at baily.
i would ask a board member or have someone show you where it say NO CCW on the range. as thats a stupid rule if it is. At frontier some aholes tried to tell folks they could not CCw and we had a club vote and it was allowed to happen by about 95% in favor of ccw on the range. and even open carry but you best not take it out as then it breaks the loaded gun on the range rule.

I would find another club and if someone here in CO talked to me like that I would turn their ass in to the board and demand they do something about that person.

If they give you some stupid thing about insurance thats BS as the nra supplys most range insurance and thats why most all clubs make sure you belong to the NRa. Heck even the wittington center allows CCW and open carry and thats run by the NRA.

Which Club is it as I know someone on about half of the boards around the state.

Ready2Defend
January 21, 2008, 12:50 AM
I don't have that dilemma at the indoors range(in town) or outdoors range (out in the boonies). Both plainly post no handeling of loaded guns except when ready to fire. I would never go to a range in the boonies without a BUG or CCW. I do this from my duty to keep my guns from falling into the wrong hands as well as my desire avoid being a victim. A range is too logical a target for a BG to obtain guns from not to keep that contingency covered.

Treo
January 21, 2008, 02:11 AM
I am a member of the Pikes Peak Gun Club. There is a range out west of town called Rampart Range. but it is a hell hole, people take their old refridgerators, T.V.s (I'm sure the ocassional unwanted dog ends up there.) and anything else they want to shoot up out there and blow the hell out of it. the place gives responsible shooters a bad name. & the have their share of self appointed range police. I haven't shot there in years and I wouldn't unless I was heavily armed. As for PPGC its a nice respectable range, I like it and I'm glad I shoot there but I still think it would be a HUGE tactical error to disarm out there.

ilbob
January 21, 2008, 10:07 AM
I used to go to a range that did not allow any holstered weapons, especialy no CCW. (This was in MD however) This rule also applied to any and all law enforcement, I have seen them kick out more than one for refusing to disarm.
The club I belong to is a cold range. No one (including LEOs) is generally allowed to have loaded firearms in the building at all, except when actually in a shooting point, with a couple of exceptions.

One exception is during matches, where under supervision of a range officer, a shooter may load in front of the points. There is also one range that has been designated to allow practice of holster shooting, and it is allowed there.

Drawing from a holster is only permitted by those who have been deemed qualified to do so, or under the direct supervision of one deemed qualified. There is a day long class that goes through some basic holster safety, and involves a fair amount of drawing and shooting. Once a person has been passed the class he is permitted to draw and shoot from a holster while in the points, or on the designated range.

Of course, this is in Illinois and we do not have CC for normal people. It is also an indoor, controlled access building in the middle of a good sized city.

Navy joe
January 21, 2008, 10:21 AM
The chances of me ever being empty on a range is nil. In the few times I've been unable to carry loaded at a range I walk around with an empty Glock in my holster locked open for the world to see. With about 4 full mags on my belt. Not ideal, but it will be loaded quickly. Too many situations of being downrange when someone shows up to take your guns. Best to have a friend guard while you post targets. In my new digs the ranges are National Forest on a dead-end dirt road in the middle of the woods. I think I'll stay hot thank you. Clarify the club rules if you can, be discreet if you cannot. Consequence of being found out is being kicked out for the day or forever. Consequence of no working gun is potentially much worse.

ilbob
January 21, 2008, 12:30 PM
Too many situations of being downrange when someone shows up to take your guns. Best to have a friend guard while you post targets.
This would seem to be more a case for locking or otherwise securing your firearms (such as having a friend wtch them) while they are not under your direct control than a case for being armed while 100 yards away.

I used to shoot at a public range north of Elgin. I never left any guns laying around when I went to change targets. They went back in the case and into the trunk of my car.

ilbob
January 21, 2008, 01:03 PM
<dupe>

Havegunjoe
January 21, 2008, 04:26 PM
I was at an indoor range the other day and I simply asked the range officer how she wanted me to handle the situation. I wanted to shoot the gun I was carrying. I had made sure I didn't have one in the chamber before entering the range. I told her I could unholster at the line facing the target, or remove the mag. before unholstering, or take it back to my truck and unload completely then re-enter. She said to simply unholster at the line was fine and thanks for asking.

As for range commandos you will always find them. I just pretend I can't understand them because of all the noise.

mekender
January 21, 2008, 05:37 PM
i like my local range

http://calibers.net/rules.php

∑ WHEN ENTERING CALIBERS, ALL FIREARMS TO BE SECURED IN A HOLSTER OR GUN CASE. FIREARMS DO NOT NEED TO BE UNLOADED.

∑ “LOAD & UNLOAD” YOUR FIREARM ONLY INSIDE THE SHOOTING STALL FACING DOWN RANGE.

no need for silly rules, these work just fine

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