I was looking at the Custom Shop pages at Remington and I saw that the MSRP on the 40X rifles is around $2,600 or so. Are these rifles that much nicer than the standard 700-series?
I'm looking for target rifles in .308/.223/22LR that will make tiny groups with the nicest trigger in the world. I'd like the bolt and other moving parts to function like they're sliding on butter. Fit and finish should be PERFECT. :)
Is a 40X worth the investment?
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January 20, 2008, 02:15 PM
I just bought a Savage target action for $500, with the target Accutrigger ( 6oz to 2lbs),solid bottom, left port. very well finished. With replacement caliber bolt heads and the ability to change barrels easily, $2,600 for a Remington seems high. Remington 700 actions have been the production go to actions for a long time, I think Savage has a better product now.
January 20, 2008, 02:20 PM
They are very, very, good, but at that price I would get a custom action and build a gun. Well, get a smith to build me one. :)
The Deer Hunter
January 20, 2008, 02:21 PM
Fit and finish should be PERFECT.
Well seeing how fit is different person to person I don't think we can help you with that...
January 20, 2008, 02:22 PM
The 40X is a Remington Custom Shop offering, and it's technically not a 700 action. If you take this 2006-vintage 40X and compare it to something like my 700PSS, you can easily tell the difference in fit and finish. The 40X uses a different trigger assembly, although it can be fitted to the 700 series easily enough. The fit and finish on this rifle are far and above what's obtained on an assembly line rifle, and I was getting repeatable 1/4" groups at 200 yards the day I took this picture.
IMHO, Savage would have a long ways to go before it approached a rifle of the 40X's quality. Simply putting the silly-assed Accutrigger in a Savage does not a 40X make. :scrutiny:
January 20, 2008, 03:22 PM
That's a tiny group all right... I can do that, provided I fire only one round.
What loads does your 40-X like?
January 20, 2008, 03:39 PM
IMtheNRA was asking for a rifle that shot tiny groups, had a perfect fit and finish, and thought the 40X was pricey. I will agree the Custom Shop produces fine looking rifles that are also accurate, my point is that the Savage Target series delivers the same level of accuracy, although less attractive, for 1/2 the money. I have older Savage and Remington actions, and the new Savage Target action I just purchased is far superior in fit and finish to both. In addition the floating bolt head on the Savage is superior to any rigid bolt on modern production actions. Only benchrest actions or sleeved bolts achieve the same level of consistent lug contact. Combined with the fact that interchangeable bolt heads and the barrel nut head spacing allow one action and scope to be any caliber rifle, the Savage, in my opinion, is a better deal.
January 20, 2008, 03:48 PM
I have mixed feelings about whether that's a benefit or not. :scrutiny:
Good locking lug engagement isn't the exclusive domain of the Savage, regardless. I don't recall the original poster inquiring about a switch-barrel rifle, either. He did, however, ask about perfect fit and finish.
Can you get a Savage to shoot well? Of course. I have an older pre-Accutrigger 110 series in .30-06 that does quite well, but I've also done some tweaking to get it there. I have the patience of Job to fiddle with stuff like that, having built a 1000-yard 6.5-06 rifle using a Krieger barrel and 1916 Haenel Mauser action, blueprinted, lapped, you name it. It ain't out-of-the-box, but I had the time and money to build it. The money spent could've bought me another 40X, or a nice custom from Jarrett, Iron Brigade, etc.
I waited a while to have Remington build my .308 40X, but I consider it money well-spent, and still cheaper than the custom-built Nesika Bay or Stolle rig I still hanker after.
IOW, my Chevy pickup is nice, but it ain't no Ferrarri - nor do I pretend that it is. ;)
January 20, 2008, 05:26 PM
Is a 40X worth the investment?
Nope. For a few hundred more, you can get a custom-built rifle from one of the country's best gunsmiths.
January 20, 2008, 07:50 PM
The 40X is an expensive rilfe. the reason for that is they super tune them at the factory. That one and the M24 s get thsi speacial treatment. I shoot Only Remingtons (700s) Mine are extremely accurate rifles. My .308 is an original PSS. Will shoot small clover leafs at 100 meters. 168 NM hand loads.
My .223 PSS is even more accurate. I also have a Rem. VS in .223.
That rifle is off the shelf. An 8x32 scope and very tiny groups at 100 meters.
Is the 40 X worth the money? I guess if you have it. No rifle out there competes with the reputation of the 40X Remingtons Period. This has been proved, repeatedly and time tested over many years. Rifle history tells us this is a fact. The quality and craftsmenship are second to none. You acn buy a rifle with nicer finishes. but that is not what Remington was selling in the first place. I have never even heard of a 40 X that did not shoot well.:)
January 20, 2008, 08:11 PM
40X rifles are built to a very high standard and you get your money's worth.
Back in the 1970's I talked to the then-manager of the Remington custom shop and he told me that they would not allow a 40X .22LR target rifle out of the shop unless it could group AT LEAST 3/4" of an inch at 100 yards, and most did "significantly better" than that.
January 20, 2008, 08:32 PM
I'd take a Savage target action over the 40x action.
$2600 for a 40x rifle is a bit expensive considering more modern actions have surfaced in the past several years (i.e. Kelby, Surgeon, etc). 25 years ago, the 40x would have been considered one of the best actions to build a match gun on. That is not the case today.
January 20, 2008, 09:04 PM
Gewehr98 That is one nice looking rifle. I guess Remington shooters are kind of by them selves these days. Just so you know I looked at your site and agree 100% on the issues you bring to light. (Fudds) Way too many out there. Shouldn't be that way butt it is. Thanks and happy shooting.
January 20, 2008, 11:46 PM
If I had to have a Remington, I'd get a true custom before I got a 40X. FWIW, there were a lot of factory Savages at the F-Class Nationals, in the winners circle. Didn't see any 40x's.
January 21, 2008, 12:03 AM
I say for the money an FN PBR, Ruger 77 VT, Howa 1500 tach, Remiington 700,and many others shoot as well, I was a sniper for over 14 years and at one point my partner was issued an XB40 (one of the first 40Xs) and was never able to out shoot me. and I eas shooting a M-21 system w/ ART scope. It's a semi auto and shot 10.5 in groups at 1250 meters. For the money I'd buy a Springfield "White Feather".:D
January 21, 2008, 12:21 AM
and I eas shooting a M-21 system w/ ART scope. It's a semi auto and shot 10.5 in groups at 1250 meters.
That's a 10.5" group at just a hair over 1367 yards using a scoped M14 variant in 7.62mm NATO.
You need to get off the forums and head out there to Gunsite, Raton, etc. as a shooting instructor.
This retired military guy thinks you're seriously wasting your talents and time here, dude. :scrutiny:
Thanks for the blog fodder, btw.
January 21, 2008, 05:46 AM
I saw that the MSRP on the 40X rifles is around $2,600 or so. Are these rifles that much nicer than the standard 700-series?
I love the standard 700 and have excellent results with the varmint /tactical models I have owned. But for $2600 you can actually have a rifle built on a custom action , Jewell trigger and match barrel like Hart , Shilen or Krieger. There are even custom actions out there that are based on the 700 with the same dimensions and bolt down.
Of course one could just buy a standard $500 Savage and out shoot any 700 , standard or custom shop. Funny thing , had to see for myself and bought a 12BVSS. I still like the 700.
January 21, 2008, 08:59 AM
Check out the second hand market- are they available and what do they cost...
I believe that like anything else the "I got one as good cheaper" crowd will always whine of cost and CAN NOT appreciate nor see the differences the last 5 or 10 percent of upgrades that make the difference that only a few of us see the value in.
Is a shiloh worth three times the cost of a pendersoli? I and quite a few others do.. is my Chris reeve sebenza worth 100 times more than that chinese knife sold at the gas station? I think so- others get by just fine with the minimums etc. Thats ok- we all get to choose...
January 21, 2008, 09:18 AM
Ford .vs Chevy. Escort .vs Corvette. Sure, they'll both get you there, but the question, as always in discussions like this, is HOW do you want to arrive and what are you own personal preferences?
January 21, 2008, 09:33 AM
just my opinion, but the stuff i've seen out of remington's custom shop hasn't been as cool as the S&W performance center stuff.
in any event, for that price, you can have a real custom gun built exactly the way you want it.
the only advantage a 40x would have over a custom gun is that you wouldn't have to wait 6-9months to get it
January 21, 2008, 10:41 AM
I made Master with a 40XCKS. The rifle would shoot, but the finish angered me. There were milling marks under the rear bolt bridge along where the sear engaged the bolt. The clip slot was not to spec and required some fettling.
The rifle shot well, but for what I paid, it should have been perfect, and milling marks? You've gotta be kidding me.
January 21, 2008, 02:55 PM
I have never owned a 40x or even shot one. But i might suggest that you look elsewhere for a 40x, I saw a beatiful one in Cabela's for $2150, i think, Stainless steel and what looked like a mcmillian benchrest stock. Beatiful gun, I would not be ashamed to own it. Of course, i did not ask to look at it as it was under lock and key and about $1500 more than i had to spend at the moment.
Gewehr98, Have you ever shot or handled a savage target action?
January 21, 2008, 05:53 PM
Gewehr98 - what does that gun weigh??
January 21, 2008, 09:25 PM
My experience with recent model Remingtons has been anything but good. I bought an XR-100 a year or two back in .22-250 which was nice looking, but poorly bedded, and shot 1.5 MOA. I had to bed it, bush the firing pin, get the action trued, and swap the barrel for a Shilen to get it to maybe 1/2 MOA. I thought the 40X trigger was 'OK' but nothing to write home about.
Gewehr, if your 40X really shoots 1/8 MOA, hold onto it. You probably got a good smith at Remington working on it, and the action is probably true, and the barrel might be better than most Remington barrels.
At our range, there a a few 40X(s) that shoot benchrest. One, heavily smithed older .222 with a Kreiger barrel and Jewel trigger shoots well. The others aren't all that impressive.
If you're seriously considering spending $2600, you'd likely be better off getting a used rifle built on a BAT/Stolle/Stiller/Nesika or similar custom action with a Hart/Shilen/Kreiger/Pac-Nor or other barrel....it'll probably already have a Jewell Trigger. Ask the same question on Benchrest.com or 6mmBR.com, and you'll likely get the same advice. Money put into a custom action BR rig will hold value better than a trued Remington.
There is a whole sub-industry built off of truing, sleeving, bushing, and rebarreling Remingtons. They can be made into accurate rifles, but with the solid bolt design, the smithing and precision work is what makes 'em.
If you're going with a less-than-custom action for Varmint rifle accuracy, I'm with those that prefer Savages over Remingtons. The floating bolt head cures the ills that force lug lapping etc on Remingtons. You can do garage smithing and swap barrels and bolt heads in minutes. I built a 6mm BR/.223/.22-250AI swap-barrel rifle on a LRPV that's 3 for 3 on shooting flys (the insects) at 100 yards (with the 6mm barrel). Not bad for a bubba-ed Savage!
January 21, 2008, 11:04 PM
I have a 40XB-KS in 7.62, it took a while to get but I think it was worth every penny. It runs 1/2 moa with no problem and the quality is well beyond anything from a production built gun. Getting any of a number of custom gunsmiths to assemble a similar rifle would cost the same money. In the end, those guys are just gun plumbers. Remington said they could do the job and they have a custom shop full of well trained guys and parts.
I had years of trigger time before I had a rifle built and had definite ideas about what I wanted. You should buy this sort because you want it and intend to use it for a while. If you try and base it on resale or how many ohhhs and ahhhs you hope to get at the range, you are gonna be disappointed.
January 22, 2008, 11:13 AM
Didn't shoot that to impress. I was able to group at 1175 and 1250 meters at Ft Bragg in 1977, Only shot 1000 meters since anywhere else. also shot oranges cold shot at 300 meters. If you've never shot an ART scope you've missed a pleasure. Long range is a ZEN type experience for me.some days you are on and some days you're not. I've go two Gewehr 98s and love them. I shot 100 meters with one that is scoped and 600 meters with iron sights. I also shoot 45-110 Black powder cartridge to 1000 yards. Love long range shooting.. and am working up a 1600 meters round for 30-06 with 240 gr bullets. I can understand your doubting. Blitz
January 22, 2008, 11:14 AM
Didn't shoot that to impress. I was able to group at 1175 and 1250 meters at Ft Bragg in 1977, Only shot 1000 meters since anywhere else. also shot oranges cold shot at 300 meters. If you've never shot an ART scope you've missed a pleasure. Long range is a ZEN type experience for me.some days you are on and some days you're not. I've go two Gewehr 98s and love them. I shot 100 meters with one that is scoped and 600 meters with iron sights. I also shoot 45-110 Black powder cartridge to 1000 yards. Love long range shooting.. and am working up a 1600 meters round for 30-06 with 240 gr bullets. I can understand your doubting. I do physical therapy now and don't shoot nearly as much as i should. Blitz
January 22, 2008, 11:16 AM
sorry must have double clicked
January 22, 2008, 11:35 AM
As a kid I shot NRA smallbore rifle in a Jr Police Rifle club and later in a JROTC rifle team.
As my buddys dad ran the club I was issued to take home a DCM Rem 40X in .22lr, I was ~13 years old, and could barely lift it.
That rifle shot better than ANY .22 I have shot in the 30 years after I turned it back in when I turned 18.
January 22, 2008, 12:53 PM
It was a Savage Tactical 10FP in .308 that I talked one of my subordinates into buying. I feel bad for doing that to him, in hindsight.
It shot "ok", but I was not terribly impressed, and thought my own older 110-series Savage had better fit and finish. As I've stated before, that vaunted floating bolt head has indeed cost one competitor his chances at winning a tactical match, even if anecdotal.
I find it funny that those who say the money is better spent on a custom forget that the 40X IS a custom. You pays your money, and they build the rifle for you, it shows up about 6 months later. Much is said about needing to tweak a Remington 700 action in this thread, and to that I'll heartily agree. My own 700PSS got a bit of tweaking. The 40X, however, is NOT a 700 action, lest we forget. The tweaking happened at the Remington Custom Shop, before it even shipped to me, as opposed to me buying a Savage and basically rebuilding it.
Maybe mine's the exception, with excellent fit, finish, lug engagement, etc. So be it, but I believe it was worth every penny, and as somebody who owns several customs and also helps keep Krieger barrels awash in cash, I don't disparage Remington their 40X. ;)
January 22, 2008, 09:27 PM
Gewehr98, I agree that the finish on most modern Savage actions is nothing to brag about. I have a 110 short action from 1963 that is much better finished than the 10 series I inspected last year. When I opened the box for the Target action (right bolt, left port), I was really surprised how well this action was finished, far superior to their production actions. They obviously put more effort into this series. I haven't seen an assembled Savage F/TR rifle, so I can't comment on their quality, although from what I read, the barrels are the weak link. I have a Krieger 6.5 barrel I plan to use, with a McMillan A-5 stock.
January 22, 2008, 10:26 PM
Gewehr98, do you consider a 40X a custom in the same vein as a Kelby (or whatever) built off of a Nesika/Stolle/BAT/Stiller with a Hart/Shilen/Kreiger/Lilja barrel? (I'm curious if the 40X with the 2 oounce trigger option really uses a Jewel trigger.) 40x triggers, barrels, and actions are still Remington factory parts, No? Sure they'll glassbed a 40X, but how much is it different than a Cooper, which pretty much everybody considers a 'semi-custom'?
By the way, do you consider a 40X equal to a Cooper? Would you consider it equal to a Cooper for the money?
I'll give you the fact that the fit and finish of a 40X is better than your average Savage, and that once trued and rebarreled you could make a decent BR rifle (which I pretty much consider the standard for accuracy, even if a BR rig is usually set up for a specific purpose).
I'm just not going to consider a custom shop 40X a viable (i.e. competitive) short range benchrest rig (to pick one dicipline), nor one that could hold its value like one. If you were to post on 6mmBR.com or benchrest.com about a bone-stock custom-shop 40X being competitive against the Nesika/Stolle/BAT/Stiller-based rifles, do you think you would really get anybody to consider it an equal competitor (excluding the VarmintGuy!).
Nothing against your rifle...a .308 that shoots in the .2(s) at 200 sounds impressive, and it's good shooting. I don't think my Savage 6BR shoots any better than .4s or .5s...but I've got significantly less in it.
It's not that hard to find a used Stolle Panda for $2K that will shoot in the .2s or better, and it would leave you enough for a Weaver T36, and you could be competitive.
One last point, there are some plain 'ol factory rifles that just shoot some loads pretty well. The target below was one of my first .308 reloads in a $700 CZ550 Varmint with a 3x12 Nikon. It shoots Varget (or RL-15) and SMKs really well and is still bone stock.
That may be in the .2s (or perhaps less), but it's not as good as a true custom, with a custom action and pemium barrel. Most customs seem to shoot most reasonable reloads well. (As does my Savage.) That CZ only likes Varget and RL-15. I don't in any way consider that as good of a shooter as a real custom.
I'm happy with a bubba Savage, which with a better shooter, might keep up with your 40X, at half the price...http://home.comcast.net/~gregrgasser/lrbr.jpg
January 23, 2008, 02:40 AM
I say that because it sounds like you're comparing high-end benchrest actions to a non-benchrest 40X action - apples and oranges. If you intend to steer the discussion towards the benchrest game, I appreciate that, but it's not where I'm coming from.
Likewise, if you're dead-nuts serious about a benchrest rig that'll be competitive, you're looking for a Stolle Panda, Nesika Bay, BAT, or Shilen DGA, plus all the fiddly bits that go with that type of action. Your website is ostensibly www.6mmBR.com as a launching point for that particular discipline. And no, you won't find a gaggle of Savages on the leaderboards at BR matches. It doesn't mean you can't build a BR Savage, just that there are better mousetraps already out there making your BR aspirations somewhat more difficult, much akin to the little black rifle displacing the M14/M1A at Camp Perry. If you have time and money, sure. This guy did just that, tweaking a Savage to his heart's desire:
I don't consider the 40X to be a benchrest rig, never have, and I guarantee you'll never find where I stated such. I doubt anybody does, it's the wrong rifle for that very specialized game. I do, however, consider the 40X to be an excellent across-the-course match rifle, an excellent target rifle, an F-Class rifle, a law enforcement rifle (common amongst sheriff's departments prior to the arrival of the 700PSS), and a damn nice rig to sit in that big gap intended for upscale rifles between the plain-vanilla Savremchestruger 700/77/70/110/10 and the seriously hardcore true benchrest rigs like Stolle, Nesika Bay, Shilen DGA, BAT, and so forth.
As such, I do consider the fit and finish of the Remington 40X to be in the league of the Cooper, Jarrett, Iron Brigade Armory, Shiloh, and other working man's customs. In other words, they're not BR rigs with metalflake paint jobs glued into their stocks and sliding on talcum powdered sandbags and vernier-adjustable front rests. (Although look at the front rest in my picture! :D ) I personally have no problems taking the 40X to the tree stand during deer season, and putting venison on the table, then spending a nice afternoon at the range shooting small groups to unwind.
I've built many custom target rifles, and purchased nearly the same amount. I've also had the pleasure of shooting, borrowing, and handling nearly everything that's been made or sold thanks to my decade or so of being a range safety officer and an extra ten years as competitive shooter. Some rifles leave me cold, while others really stick out as outstanding values for the dollar, including the seldom-mentioned and now discontinued Tikka 595 Master Sporter. Aesthetics don't paint the whole picture - I'll be the first to admit that. My Remington 700PSS looks rough as a cob compared to the 40X pictured above, but it also shoots darned well for the price. Heck, even my old Savage 110 in .30-06 has its moments. However, I've already learned that the 40X shoots better than the 700PSS (as it should!), and while I doubt one can extrapolate a linear metric comparing group size vs. purchase price, I don't regret the cost of the 40X at all. Likewise, the benchrest guys building Nesika Bay and Stolle Panda rifles know they're getting rifles that shoot bughole groups, and are more than happy to shell out the beaucoup clams to play the game.
I don't really have to defend my 40X purchase to anybody, honestly. The original poster wanted inputs on the 40X, and I gave an honest one. It does what I want it to do, and I paid Remington's Custom Shop the money to tweak it before they boxed it up and sent it to me. I could've bought another Remington 700 Varmint/PSS, and fiddled with it, or a Savage 10FP and done the same. But it's nice knowing that when that box arrives from Big Green, the boys at the Custom Shop got it right and the gun is ready to go, without further ado. Buy a custom gun from Kenny Jarrett, Norm & Rocky Chandler, Shiloh Sharps, or Cooper, and you'll enjoy that same feeling, right out of the box.
January 23, 2008, 09:30 AM
Gewehr, Most of the 40X(s) I've seen are the ones such as:
which strike me as a BR setup. So when you, in an earlier thread, seemed taken back that we didn't consider them a custom, I was comparing them to what I considered a custom BR rig.
Hopefully, no harm no foul!
Maybe my thinking is colored by my disappointment with my XR-100, which took some work (and parts) to get to a decent 'varmint-level' of accuracy...despite having much better glass than some of my others. The original barrel on that Remington seemed as smooth as any Shilen I've ever had...but never shot worth beans! I must have had the 'lawyers chamber reamer' and a 'Monday' factory build. But again, an XR-100 isn't a 40X...
January 23, 2008, 01:13 PM
$2600 isn't bad for a factory custom shop rifle.
Remember that $2,600 includes a 15% federal sporting tax. So actual cost without that tax is $2,250.
I'd like to know where some of you are getting all this cheap high quality custom work done on your guns ?
I will add what is coming out of Remington today is far better quality than what was being shipped out just 3 years ago.
I have never owned a 40X but I have never heard anyone that owned one ever complain about the accuracy they were getting out of the gun.
January 23, 2008, 02:30 PM
Well, Brownell's had Remington 700 actions for $400-$500. Get the best barrel Shilen or others make for about $500. Then, get a great synthetic stock for $400 or less. Maybe, $200-$300 to have a gunsmith put said barrel on said action. That's $1700-$2000.
Call me crazy, but $2600 sound a little steep (at least for my tastes). I'm thinking $1500 to $2000 would be more in line......
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