[sm]

I am a believer in the 20 gauge shotgun being a great general purpose shotgun.
I am not the only one, I assure you.

20 gauge shotguns tote easy in fields, will fell game from quail to deer, break any clay on a skeet field and allow to shoot not only the 20 ga event , also the 12 ga event in skeet.

I personally just use 2 3/4" shells, in everything , except in .410, where the
2 1/2" shell is used 99% of the time by me.

I grew up around all sorts of firearms, including shotguns of all gauges, and the 20 gauge protected homes, property, felled quail, ducks, geese, bear, deer, and of course rabbits and squirrels.

Single shot, O/U, SxS, pump, or semi-auto, will still do today, as they always have.
It is the user of a tool, not the tool itself ,that effectively and efficiently takes care of a task.

Another thing I believe in is a bigger person can effectively use a smaller shotgun, where a smaller person cannot.

Often times I also share the truism "the best kept secret is a 20 ga skeet gun", referring to a semi auto such as a Win 1400, Beretta 303, 390, 391, Rem 1100 in this respect.

Same applies to other platforms in 20 ga. used in skeet, or other clay sports.

Yes, I know of real life situations where a bone stock 20 ga 1100, 1400 have stopped an immediate threat.

I know too many folks, including couples, and families, where the Home/Business shotgun is a 20 ga.

One family, the dad is 6'3, mom is 5'4, teenager daughter 5'1, and grandma has shrunk to 5'2.
There are multiples of the same bone stock 20 ga, with youth stocks.
This family shoots together, and this includes hunting, property duty, clays and serious lessons.

Dad and mom have the most experience, grandma technically does as she competed and hunted forever, just does not do as much as she did, and the teenage gal, is learning real fast!

Tossing clays akin to low 7, except lower, all members were breaking targets.
Using slugs.
Consistently I might add.

There are some great buys on 20 gauge guns, especially with those with only 2 3/4" chambers.
Not to mention some folks buy a gun to hunt a season and sell it, and then next season buy another gun.
Add Tax season is upon us and Divorce Season starts in May around here.

Just a post to share some thoughts and plant some seeds is all...

[Dave McCracken]

Good post, Steve. Agreed on most points.

I recently read an article in an old Double Gun Journal about a guy that used a 175 year old flintlock fowler to take both partridge and elk. It was a 20, of course.

[3/325]

Twenty is plenty.

[PJR]

I am not enthusiastic about the 20 gauge. Compared to the 12 it's main benefit is a lighter gun but one that often recoils as much as the larger gauge because the gun is light.

In ammo selection the 20 isn't as versatile. Non-tox isn't as available nor as good as what's around in 12 particularly the steel. Buckshot loads are most often to limited #3 compared to the wider variety of 12. 20 gauge slugs are pretty good but rifled barrels and sabots are pretty much a 12 gauge proposition. For waterfowl, deer and when things go bump in the night I'd rather have a 12.

For skeet and close range clays it's fine but having shot a three barrel skeet set (20, 28, .410) for a couple of years I concluded that when compared to the 28 gauge the only thing that the 20 gave me was more recoil. Scores didn't differ.

I am also wary of the potential for a 12/20 burst. I came very close to having one while hosting some guests at the club who wanted to learn about shooting. When the gun went "click" I was about put in a shell figuring I'd forgotten to load in the excitment. I'd been shooting 12 and 20 and at the last minute I instead chose to tip the gun up and tap the butt on the concrete pad. The sight and sound of that 20 gauge shell popping out of the chamber and on to the ground is not one I'll soon forget. Incidentally, it is also possible to have a 20/28 burst if you load a 28 gauge shell into a 20.

I sold my remaining 20 gauge gun last year and now own 12 and 28 gauge only. I don't miss the 20 gauge. I believe for general purpose the 12 gauge is still the best choice and for sheer shotgunning delight nothing beats the 28.

Paul

[ArmedBear]

I'm not sure I'd call the 20 an all-purpose gun, though in the field I seldom carry anything else. The 12 is really versatile, but versatile doesn't always mean "the best for the task." The 20 often is the best for the task.

It's the 28 that doesn't interest me so much, since it seems a lot of 28 Gauge guns are built on 20 Gauge frames anyway, and I can load 3/4 oz in a 20 Gauge hull too, if I want to. The ridiculous price of 28 factory ammo means I would be shooting mostly handloads, not factory shells, in a 28.

But if I'm going to load them myself, the 20 will cover all the bases a 28 will, and a lot more. If I want low recoil, I'll load for low recoil; there's no reason that 28 Gauge has noticeably lower recoil than 20, for a given load.

[sm]

Paul,
I appreciate your input and I even agree with some of your points.
You and others know my stance on the 28 gauge.

Everyone.
Being serious.

Raised in the era I was and mentored by the folks I was, shape what I am and my belief system.

I am really concerned as my mentors were and have been been vigilant ever since in regard to Freedom.

We used to order a firearm , including a shotgun and have it delivered to our door by the Postman C.O.D.

Mentors had experiences in regard to restrictions of civilians having what Police or Military had abroad in regard to make and ammunition.
i.e Police/Military are issued 9mm or .380, civilians could not have these calibers.

Take a look what has occurred in the world in regard to restrictions with guns, ammunition and knives.

If...and may it never occur...US civilians are restricted in having what Police/Military use, that would mean 12 gauge and right off the bat the 870 could not be legally owned, used, by civilians.

A lot of these restrictions we have, all through history come about because of Perceptions of users of tools.
i.e Black AR is evil.
Heck for sensationalism - everything today is black, evil , assault, arsenal, hi-cap...
It does not matter if true, first impressions stick in minds and law abiding get hurt and it does not matter one iota to criminals.

Repeating shotguns and magazine capacity has often been scrutinized by politicians and antis - in how the various legislations are worded and interpreted.

Twenty bore I happen to like , and I understand it has limits and all, still if matters go south , it would be a good idea to have a twenty bore , bone stock, set back to be "legal" if the 12 bore became off limits to civilians.

28 gauge, oh heck yeah! I know what it can and cannot do, including with 28 ga slugs.
.410 - again, I know the pros, cons, and limits.

I am attempting to plant some seeds, one being the 20 bore being a general purpose shotgun.
Another being for folks to continue to fight to preserve freedom and this includes acting like a responsible firearm owner and not aiding and abetting Tyranny by acting like a damn fool...if I may be so blunt.

History is great teacher and Internet now affords one greater and faster communications. Use it.
Take a look at by doing searches as to how our members on THR in the UK and say New Zealand got in the fix they are in.

Ireland, last time I checked, restricts civilians to an minimum barrel length of 24".

How many have shared on THR alone, their gun club restricts them in using barrels at least 23" long?

Connect the dots, do the research, learn from history and ...continue to fight to preserve Freedom.

It is up to you whether you choose to get a 20 ga, left bone stock or not.
Maybe a 28 gauge, and take a look in regard to loadings, including slugs.
Setting back primers and other reloading supplies...



Steve

[mugs79]

I'm going to be totally honest here.

I love, love reading posts from sm.

But, frankly, I have to disagree with this one.

I've shot 12 gauges. Never a 20, never a 28 or a .410, or even a 16 or a 10.

Only 12.

I've fired a dozen or so magnum shells at ducks in a single afternoon.

I've fired dozens upon dozens of 2 3/4 inch shells against my shoulder at clays, in the course of a few hours.

As a male, I stand at 5'7." Hundreds of shells fired at clays left a bruise. But not one that bad. More in a good, satisfied type of bruise.

You'll forgive me if I have a hard time understanding the recoil type arguments against the 12 gauge. It's all I've ever known. Yes, after a time, it starts to hurt...

But only after a long time.

I'd rather have too much gauge against my shoulder, than not enough.

Hell with 20 gauge. I'm perfectly content abusing my shoulder with 12 gauge.

[ArmedBear]

It's not about shoulder abuse. I hunt with a guy who has your attitude: 12 Gauge is the only shotgun he wants. His response to any gun, even a nice little upland O/U is, "That looks nice! Do they make it in 12 Gauge?" He wants to get his wife a 20, though. I don't get it.

I bring a 20 Gauge with 2 shots, he brings a 12 with 3, and I almost always have more birds in my bag than he does when we go home, even though, at the range, he scores better. Lately I have had the only non-empty bag on some sparse days. The quick little 20 just plain works better for almost anything but waterfowl, regulation trap disciplines, and clays shooting where you have to reach way out there and swing slow and smooth.

Now I just bought a 12 that's well-balanced and lighter than my old clunkers; I really like the feel of the thing. It might work better for hunting than other 12s I've used. But really, it's all about how fast you want to shoulder and swing the gun. Sometimes, slower and smoother will bring down more birds, sometimes quicker will. It can really limit one's success, though, to refuse to look beyond 12 Gauge in the field.

[TrapperReady]

To tell the truth, 20ga is the one I use the least*; however, it is a very versatile option. For breaking clays, a 7/8oz 20ga load is fine for all but the longest of shots. For shooting birds, a 20ga is (IMO) just about perfect for anything shy of geese or pass-shooting.

Ammo is readily available, though not in as many different loadings as 12ga. It's certainly easier to buy a box of 20ga at a gas station than it it is 28ga or 16ga. Cheaper too.

20ga guns can be perfect for smaller statured shooters (typically kids and women). I've got a youth model 391 20ga which I use mostly for instruction. It's lightweight, seems to fit a wide range of smaller shooters and doesn't have too much in the way of felt recoil.

BTW, a lightweight 20ga can have every bit as much felt recoil (or more) than a 12ga. For example, my 20ga Benelli M1 Field weighs probably 6.5 lbs. My 12ga Kolar weighs 9.5 lbs. The recoil is "worse" with the 20ga in that comparison.

One thing to remember with younger/smaller shooters is that recoil often isn't the main problem. The overall weight plays a big part in how comfortable the shooter is with respect to handling the gun. Recoil, as long as you're talking about target loads, is more of a secondary issue to fit and the ability to hold the gun up for a while. I've worked with a number of young shooters, and more often than not, their fatigue comes from simply holding the gun up... not from recoil.

* FWIW, I don't use 20ga much because I tend to use a bunch of different shotguns for different puposes. As my collection has grown and I've worked out what I like for specific tasks, my 20ga guns have been edged out by other choices. If I could have only one gun/gauge, then I would be pretty comfortable with either 20ga or 12ga.

[PJR]

Attitude is a funny thing and it can cut both ways.

A few years ago I was hunting with a man who criticized my light 12 gauge sxs. His firmly held view was the 12 gauge was overkill for the preserve pheasants we were chasing that day.

After he downed a bird I picked up his discarded hull. It was a 20 gauge, 3" magnum, 1-1/4 ounce load of #5. Meanwhile in my gun there was a 1 ounce load of #6 in the right barrel and a 1-1/8 ounce load of #6 in the left. I guess "overkill" is just a state of mind. :)

As for the 28 gauge, it is a very specific cartridge with limited use. It's an indulgence but a very pleasant one.

[TrapperReady]

overkill for the preserve pheasants


Arghhh!! IMO, there isn't such a thing as overkill. If you can shoot a bird and kill it humanely, that's the ideal. However, it is entirely possible to have "underkill". Sometimes you'll have small-gauge fans take shots outside the effective range of their guns (although that can and does happen with 12ga as well).

The only real problem I see is if someone is shooting very heavy loads and blows the bird up at close range. Most of my pheasant shooting is done with either a 12ga or 16ga with full choke and 1 1/8 - 1 1/4 oz od hard #5 lead. I let them get out to 30 yards or so before I shoot.

BTW, my favorite all-around upland load is 1 oz of #7 (not #7.5) shot. It tends to pattern very well and will kill most any bird from doves to pheasants without tearing them up too badly. On pheasants, I just make sure to keep the shots inside 35 yards and only shoot if I can see the heads. If I'm ONLY hunting pheasants, then #5 shot is preferred.

[41magsnub]

20ga is definitely overkill!!! :evil: As a boy of 12 my dad and I went on a combo antelope, duck, pheasant hunt. We brought along a buddy of mine who had never hunted or even fired a gun before. We pull up to an overlook over a valley and see a stock pond completely full of ducks and there was a ditch starting a couple of hundred feet away going right up to the edge of the pond.

Dad sends the two of us down the ditch towards the ducks thinking there is no way we will get close enough to the ducks and will just tire ourselves out which is good for him. My buddy is carrying my 20 ga with a youth stock and the improved cylinder choke, i have my dad's 12ga wingmaster which was much too long for me.

We get to the edge of the pond still in the ditch and get ready, then charge over like a couple of dough boys crossing no mans land. I pick out one duck and drop it, then jam the shotgun because I short pumped it. My buddy takes one hail Mary shot into the flock with the 20ga and drops 4 ducks :what:, none of which were dead just wing hits.

Based on this one incident I can say 20ga is overpowered and should be illegal for hunting!:evil:

[sm]

It's not about shoulder abuse.

Armed Bear and others around here will understand and have seen what I mean by Safety and use of gauges less than 12 gauge.

First off Americans have this "bigger is better attitude" stereotype by others around the world.
Payload to bore ratio and w-a-y back when the Brits determined 11/16 oz payload from a 12 bore was ideal.
Rule of 96. Six pound gun shoots a 11/16 oz in a gun that fits shooter best due to less perceived recoil.

To the Brits, 1/18 was/is a heavy load [standard skeet/trap load in the US) and 1 1/4 oz a magnum load.

~~ Safety

Shotgunners that shoot up to 50,000 rds a year, for years and years have safety concerns.

The human body is designed to protect itself.
Release triggers come to be to assist those after high round counts, their body said "when he/she slaps that trigger - there is recoil" and flinching started.
The shooter never flinched before, they learned to shoot correctly it was the human body protecting that shooter.

Detached Retinas do occur, as does neck and backs -"protecting" the human body or - after hundreds of thousands of round, have been abused and punished.

Everyone's body is different, and these "wearing down" of body parts are not age dependent.
Young folks with less round counts suffer these various concerns.

Add, life is hard and just accidents in life detach retinas, injure necks, backs, knees, hips...

~~ Common Sense

28 gauge is the most effective payload to bore - Period.

Coming up as is true today, not everyone will buy a 28 gauge, nor will they invest in reloading 28 guage.

28 gauge is what I and others prefer to teach new shotgun users with.
While we prefer a 28 ga on a 28 ga frame, the Rule of 96 assists with a 28 ga load from a 20 ga frame.

Some of these shooters are smaller framed, and a huge deal is not letting the student get hurt.
Correct basic fundamentals are best learned with less felt recoil as well.

Prevention if will.

Time passes and 100k, 200k, 300k, etc round are shot and the person is down.
Doctors Orders! NO recoil!
Detached Retina, neck, back, and other damage, and the like.

IF...if the person recovers, and Doctor Approves, these persons can shoot again, some are restricted to .410, others to 28 gauge.

One reason "short course" trap, 5 stand, sporting clays come to be, skeet is already easy to shoot with a 28 gauge.

Not to mention with neck, back, hip, knee, surgeries and walking, and carrying anything - like a shotgun can be tough, and lighter shotguns that tote easier, just makes sense.
Especially when toting is going to done more than shooting.

20 gauge standard load is 7/8oz
28 gauge standard load is 3/4 oz

Twenty bore.
We downloaded from 7/8 oz to 3/4 oz loads to have less perceived recoil from a 20 ga shotgun, w-a-y back when, for not only smaller sized/framed folks, also to prevent injury in anyone, and for the older folks as well.

Not everyone has a 28 ga, would/ will buy one, get a reloading set up...they would and did do 20 bore from extra lite to heavier.

20 gauge in a single shot shotguns what I and others have suggested forever
instead of 12 ga.

28 is a real darn nice single shot!
Known instructors use 28 ga single shots for instructions for not only kids, small framed persons, also those getting back into shooting with injuries.
Correct basic fundamentals and O/U will come later.

20 gauge again does not have the load offerings a 12 does still more off the shelf than 28 in many areas.

Payload.
Standard is 1200 fps for target loads, all 4 gauges in skeet are 1200 fps standard. Ditto for trap and other clay games. Many hunting loads are as well.
Super lite and similar run 1145 fps.

Recall the "bigger is better" attitude?

WE did back in the day what Brister shared in his book.
Tickled us to no end.

Patterns boards do not lie, and moving pattern boards tell more of the truth!

We backed down 20 ga loads, the 3/4 oz loads, and got better patterns, and shorter shot strings.
Best recall we had these running 1050 -1100 fps

Essentially a soft 28 ga out of a 20 bore.
Killed ducks with this load we did!
Before this stupid non-tox bit on waterfowl, WE used 28 ga shotguns.
20 ga with 3/4 loads too!

Way back when we saw on pattern boards, and really on moving pattern board how the 3" shells and heavier loading were blowing patterns an ineffective.

3.5" shells come to be and some of these really blow a pattern!

Shells and components improved, such as wads, still bigger is not always better and preventive damage to a body or being able to shoot again after damages.

I am mine really really like it when a person has rinky dink 2 3/4" 20 ga shotgun and they "have to have" a tactical shotgun or skybuster for doves, ducks - whatever - because a 20 gauge is so rinky dink.

Toss the $135 down and walk off with a 1400, or 1100.
$35 for a two year old H&R topper 20 bore as 20 bore sucks, and they "have to" whack off a barrel on a 12 bore.
$150 for a 311, as they "had to have" mag extensions and side saddles.


One young lady had detached retina, shoulder and knee surgery and wanted to learn shotguns.
I/we started slow with Doctor, and Physical Therapists.

Time heals, and she is a shotgunner, not someone that owns a shotgun.
There is a difference.

[bofe954]

I agree in theory, but it just seems like 12 gauges are more common and less expensive and the ammo is more common and less expensive. I haven't been lucky enough to start pheasant/bird hunting yet, maybe then.

I also haven't totally convinced my wife that shotguns/rifles are like golf clubs and that you really need several of each to do things correctly.

SM- I bought a used copy of Brister when I bought my 525, because of your posts. Really interesting read, I wish it had a little more about steel shot but I guess it is a little old for that.

[sm]

12 gauge:
No doubt this is the most versatile gauge.
Ammunition can be had anywhere, and this includes down here in the South, being available in bait shops, hardware stores, gas stations and drug stores.
Some places still have a coffee can with loose shells, grab a few and done.

Advances in hulls, shot, powder, wads and primer, have increase the effectiveness of all shot shells, including 12 ga of course.

Decline in shells have also occurred, as business practices have declined, therefore quality and service of all products have declined.

It is not about us the consumer, instead them the mfg.

One can download a 12 ga to 28 ga 3/4 payloads, and quite effective.
In the early days when I and others were messing around with all of this, the idea of increasing fps, was "wrong", as we were getting blown patterns - even with hard shot.

Then Int'l Skeet and Int'l Trap, were decreasing allowed payloads [24 gr] and increasing velocities!
Advances in components is what allowed this to occur.

Again, my concerns come from perspectives of being restricted in owning 12 ga guns, Safety for new shooter and those with Physical limits, and Budgets.

$500.00 is a lot of money to some.
$1200.00 is really a lot of money to some.

Each person is different in tools for task, still my contention is how important the user of a tool is, versus the tool itself.
I miss low 5 with a $65,000 custom gun, I have done so.
I can miss the same low 5 with a $25 pawn shop .410 single shot.

I'm talented, I can miss with anything! I have experience! *wink*

Pride of ownership - I have no problem with, where I get a bit negative about is the attitude of some owners of certain makes and models.
These folks exhibit the same behavioral attitudes with other items and makes and models - some folks are just this way.

2 3/4" chamber will do 95% of what folks will use a 12 ga shotgun for.
So will standard mag capacity.

$500 will get one an Older Used Quality made shotgun, with metallurgy , craftsmanship, and quality control , with a 2 3/4" chamber, such as Win, Rem, Ithaca or Mossberg.

Larry and I found him a older 870 in 28 ga in Tulsa one year for $500 or a bit less ( forget).
I wanted the Win model 12 in 28 gauge, just I was $4,799.00 shy of the $4,800.00 price tag.

$500 has bought a good used quality shotgun as mentioned, a used single stag reloader, with some components, and still monies to get Eyes, Ears, shooting pouch, range time...

$1,200.00...back up the truck, I have purchased quite a bit of shotguns and related shotgun stuff for $1200.

Reality is-
All my life have being doing this "role" I do.
$500?
No way!
The lady has been beaten, battered, assaulted, sexually assaulted, raped...
add a kid(s) and $50 is a helluva lot of money!

20 ga single shot from the Mom&Pop Gun store, Pawn Shop, Yard Sale, for less than $50, sometimes donated, and I have gotten a lady (anyone) up to speed in 15 minutes on using that gun to stay safe.
Money?
No, gave these to these folks.
Not there has not been times we have looked for one for someone, but the emergency needs...no money. Human life is at stake here.

Biased I am on my perspectives, I admit this.
I am a product of the era I was raised in, what was going on in the world, mentors, and my moral law.

It just does not hurt to have a 20 bore stuck back -

[waterhouse]

My thoughts on the 20:

I can afford more than one shotgun. I own several. If I could only own 1, it would be a 20. Why?

It's lightweight and I enjoy hunting with it. I've walked with a 12, 16, 20. The 20 is lighter, and the pocketful of shells is lighter. That's the activity I really like doing with my shotguns . . . walking behind dogs for quail or pheasant or woodcock or shooting doves as they pass by.

So the 20 does 90% of what I actually use my shotguns for on a regular basis, and it does it well. I'm guessing a 28 would do all of those things well too, but shells are pricey and . . . if called upon, I could use the 20 for things I now use 12 ga. for . . . I wouldn't feel bad using a 20 in a duck blind, or for slug use on deer, or for HD.

Plus, to me, 20s just look nicer than their bigger brothers :D

[distra]

Personally, I prefer the 20ga to 12ga for shooting clays even with light 12ga loads. My 1100 20ga and Browning Citori 20ga both are light easy swinging guns. I'm not a great skeet shooter, but for getting started the 20ga is great, IMHO. I know a lot folks shooting 28ga and they love it. I'll probably get 28ga tubes for my Browning someday. Not knocking the 12ga I just prefer to break clays with the 20. My wife prefers the 20ga over 12ga due to reduced recoil. To each his own.

[birdbustr]

If you are happy with your hit/miss percentages on any game with the 20 gauge, then that's great. If all you can handle is a 20 gauge, I understand that point also.

I've always used a 12 gauge since the age of 12 and I've always been happy with my percentages. I've also had a 20 gauge at my disposal since that age and I now own that 20 gauge shotgun as well. The only reason I don't use it much is due to the 26" IC barrel on this shotgun doesn't push a pattern much past 30 yards reliably. For rabbits with dogs or just kicking around the woods, I still reach for the 20 on rare occasions. If I got a invector choke barrel for the 20, maybe I would use it more, but I am still very happy with my 12 gauge shotguns, so I won't fix what isn't broken.

Does the 12 gauge have space for more pellets in a load, and therefore giving you more likelihood of a hit, yes it does and I don't see how that could be argued. But that could go on to the 3" 12 gauge is more likely, and the 3 1/2" is more likely, and then the 10 gauge is more likely, and so on.

If your 20 gives you results you are happy with, good for you, but I'm a 12 gauge man and I have shot them all in the field except for a 28 gauge. I can carry my 12 gauge shotguns and shoot them all day and it doesn't bother me, my shoulder or my back. The other guy using a 20 gauge doesn't bother me either, but "different strokes for different folks".

[3/325]

I'm not a sport shooter or a hunter. Nothing wrong with either of those, I simply have other interests when it comes to having fun. I tend to look at firearms in a purely practical light. There are thresholds in the categories of reliability, versatility, and effectiveness, and both the 12ga and 20ga stand in the "good" zone on each when considering the products of reputable manufacturers. I'll take either one and be satisfied. :)

[axeman_g]

16g is the real general purpose round

[41magsnub]

16g is the real general purpose round until you can't find ammo for it!:neener:

[TFin04]

I'm a firm believer in the 20 as well.

I have a nice O/U I use for the clay range, and a set of Briley subgauge tubes for it. I find myself shooting the 20 ga tubes more and more. Same price, same relative performance and recoil is about half that of 12 (in my heavy range gun).

Likewise, I enjoy a 20ga SXS for upland hunting. Plenty of power, lightweight gun. Recoil is stout. I wouldn't call it "bad" but for hunting where you probably shoot less than a box over the course of a few hours, it's just fine.

I shoot the 12 on the sporting clays course because I don't have the right chokes for my 20. Once I remedy that, I will give the 20ga a go there as well.

[Bud Tugly]

The pellets come out of the end of the barrel at pretty much the same speed regardless of gauge. The only difference is the number of pellets you put in the air.

If you're shooting at targets or game 40-50 yards away and more then you need lots of pellets since the pattern thins out with distance, but at closer range it's just overkill. It only takes a few pellet strikes to break a clay target or kill most small game, so the smaller gauges throw more than enough lead to be effective inside of 25-30 yards.

I've killed hundreds of grouse, rabbits, squirrels, and woodcock with a 20 gauge and .410. Their lightness makes them easy to carry and quick to shoulder and I've outshot lots of buddies with 12 gauges, especially hunting heavy cover. Shots in those situations are almost never over 25 yards.

The only time you really need a 12 gauge is when you will be making extremely long shots. The 12 is definitely the most versatile gauge, but in some situations the smaller gauges are not only adequate but actually superior to a 12.

[Oldnamvet]

And then theres me -- 3/4 or 7/8 oz loads in 12 gauge. Semi-auto and limbsaver. Hardly feel it go off at all. Pattern is good and clays break if I don't choke and shoot behind them. For hunting, I go up to 1 or 1 1/8oz of #5. Brings them down just fine.

Steve, you sure have a talent for getting people "talking". Next time make some comments about synthetic vs walnut vs beech gun stocks.:evil: With your style, it would be sure to stir the pot.:D

[sm]

Oldnamvet,

I have a method to my rebel ways.

Just wait until this bunch reads about the 24 gauge and 32 gauge.
Works of art that are such great shotguns.

Folks cannot borrow your shells, as your 24 ga or 32 ga shells will not fit their guns, be they 12, 20, 16,28 or .410.

If one tosses another a 24 ga, or 32 ga shell as they ask to see what loads you are shooting, they get baffled and miss the clay or bird, affording one with the 24 ga or 32 ga to fell targets.


...just a little brain salad surgery - Dr. Hook

*grin*

[ArmedBear]

16g is the real general purpose round

The 16 Gauge has been overtaken by technology. When Beretta offers an all-steel, well balanced 28" 12 Gauge O/U that comes in just under 7 lb., Benelli makes reliable semiautos at about that weight too, and others have introduced alloy-frame light field O/U's that weigh a good deal less than that, there's no reason to get a 16.

If every gun was like the hilariously named Citori Lightning or the 11-87 Sportsman, and weighed 8 1/8 lb. for a standard 28" 12 Gauge field gun, maybe there'd be a reason to get a 16 still. Fortunately, they're not, and there are plenty of guns that "carry like a 20" used to, but really DO "shoot like a 12".

That said, I still like my little SKB 20 for bird hunting. It's just the right weight, length, balance, size and swing speed.:)

[axeman_g]

All people who doubt the 16g will feel my wrath...MaaaaHaanananahahahaha


I am the original 16gaugefanboy!!!!!!!!!

I should change my nickname.

As for finding shells... I look upon shopping for 16g shells as an extension of the hunting season.

[birdbustr]

Hold up BUD: SUPERIOR. I don't think so.
To each his own. Do whatever feels best and fills your bag. True, shoot what you want.
All of the reasons given here are extremely subjective to the individual. How did this get to be a 20 gauge is the best thread anyway. To say a 20 gauge is ever superior than a 12 is pure BS. A 20 gauge may do just as well and save you a little lead and recoil, sure. No matter how you slice it you can always load down a 12 gauge load, but loading up a 20 gauge to equal a 12 is extremely limited to the low ball 12 loads only. How can 200 pellets from a 20 gauge ever be superior to 300 pellets of the same size, out of the same length barrel and out of the same choke ever be "superior". Maybe if you consider a 2 pellet kill better than a 4 pellet kill. It might not tear up your game quite as bad, but either way just as dead. A 20 gauge is a good multi purpose round, but so is the 12 gauge.

[TrapperReady]

I've got more guns in 16ga than in any other except 12ga. Most of the pheasant shooting I've done this year has been with an Ithaca 37 in 16ga, and all of my grouse hunting is with a 16ga Model 12.

If there is a disadvantage with those guns compared to their 12ga counterparts, I can't think of one, except for availability of ammo. Even then, it's not hard, just a little more expensive.

I don't think that 16ga is quantifiably better than 12ga or 20ga, but I do like it. Perhaps it appeals to my slightly contrarian nature.

[Dave McCracken]

The 7/8 oz loads I use copiously in my 12 gauges duplicate typical 20 gauge loads. They break clays at ridiculous ranges when I do my part. They worked well on doves at up to 45 yards.

A 20 can be loaded up, but not as well or as easily as loading down a 12. Whether that's important is an open question.

[TrapperReady]

Oldnamvet - You're not the only one here who knows the benefit of light loads in a 12ga. Now that I've returned to reloading, I am loading everything but hunting loads at 7/8oz. They make the perfect practice loads, breaking targets well out to 40+ yards and having very little recoil.

I'm committed to practicing entirely with 7/8oz reloads for this season, and have duplicated my standard competition load (1 oz of #7.5 or #8 at 1300 fps), except with a bit less lead and recoil. Since I switched a month ago, my scores have remained steady and I can honestly say that any misses I've had were not the result of fewer pellets.

I've yet to find a recipe that I really like for 12ga 3/4oz loads, but I'm still experimenting.

[Bud Tugly]

When hunting thick cover for small game you generally either get a quick shot or none at all. That's the situation where the lighter gun is superior to a heavier one. Of course not all 20's are lighter than all 12's, but in general there is an advantage of 1/2 to 3/4 lb to the 20 (and even more for the 28 and .410) in a given platform.

For more open terrain where shots are longer and speed is less critical that advantage disappears, and that's where the versatility of the 12 shines.

[sm]

-Twenty bore shells come in yeller.
-Easier to see shells, like when dropped.
-Goes well with Case Yellow handled knives with Chrome Vanadium Blades I use.
-Old Yeller is a great movie.

-And Damn! You should see the long legged , good looking babe that drives a Yeller Ferrari [Yeller Mustang when dressing down] that shoots a 20 bore!
And I do mean shoot!

I win.

*neener*

[goon]

sm - I'm kind of leaning toward your philosophy. At least in part.

I'll always have the 12 gauge for HD work and applications where I just need a bigger piece of lead but I have been thinking lately that the 20 gauge has a lot going for it. I'd like to get a little NEF single barrel someday.

[sm]

Serious.

My reason for posting was a serious one in regard to thinking out of the box if restrictions were to be imposed, affordable guns for folks on a budget, what a greater percentage of shooters actually use a shotgun for ...etc

[ArmedBear]

I've got more guns in 16ga than in any other except 12ga. Most of the pheasant shooting I've done this year has been with an Ithaca 37 in 16ga, and all of my grouse hunting is with a 16ga Model 12.

I think that the Models 37 and 12 are probably closest to perfect in 16 Gauge. That may, however, be more a function of those particular gun designs than something that can be applied to other firearms.

[TrapperReady]

I think that the Models 37 and 12 are probably closest to perfect in 16 Gauge.


I would agree. They are just a it lighter than their 12ga counterparts, but carry enough weight to not seem whippy. Both guns carry great and shoot well. Besides, 16ga seems just about perfect for generating great patterns with 1 oz or 7/8 oz shells... which are my favorite for general use.

Unfortunately, 16ga sits right between 12ga and 20ga... rmaking it seem redundant too people unfamiliar with it.

BTW, one of my others is a 16ga Browning Auto 5 (not a Sweet Sixteen). It's actually built on a 12ga frame, but it's a lot of fun also.

[PJR]

I have a partial 16 gauge. My sxs is built on a 16 gauge frame. The barrels however are 2-3/4" 12 gauge. Tips the scales at 6-1/2" pounds. The best of both worlds. :)

[JohnBT]

Being raised around a 20 ga. Model 12, I think the 20 ga. is a fine choice. My father had one with a full choke, but with today's ammo I'd want an IC or MOD.

I'll stop now, before I retell the story about the 3 of them killing the bear with birdshot.

John

[axeman_g]

Trappeready might by the original 16gfanboy....

I am always out with my SweetSixteen.. it is the gun I grap for 90% of the hunting I do and when I add deer to my list this fall I will take it then also.

[TrapperReady]

Dr. Strangegauge - Or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the 16ga

ACT ONE - Takes place at a local retail sporting goods store

Me: Hey, that old A5 is in decent shape and the wood is beautiful! Who cares if it's in 16 gauge! Let me start filling out the forms.

Later that same day...

Me: Hmm... That proof mark says "65". I hadn't noticed that when I bought it.

Still later...

Me: So a 65mm chamber is actually 2 9/16" and it won't take normal 2 3/4" ammo?

Expert: Correct. You'll need to get a bunch of work done to have it converted or buy short shells.

Me calling Westley Richards: I'll take two flats of 16 gauge 2 1/2" shells.

A couple days later...

Me: I love this gun!

ACT TWO - Takes place at a different local sporting goods store

Me: Wow! A 16 gauge Model 12 for under $200?! It's kind of a beater, but mechanically sound and has short chambers; however, I've got a bunch of 2 1/2" shells at home. I'll take it!

ACT THREE - Takes place at a friend's house

Friend: I've got a bunch of 16 gauge ammo that's been sitting around here for probably 20 years, and nothing to shoot it in? Do you want it for free?

Me: Sure. Thanks!

The next day...

Me: Hmm... The free ammo is all 2 3/4" shells, and they won't work in the guns I've got.

ACT FOUR - Takes place at yet another sporting goods store

Me: They'll work in this Ithaca!!! I'll take it.

ACT FIVE - Montage (even Rocky had a montage)

Cut between a bunch of hunting scenes, showing the guns being used for grouse, woodcock, pheasant and dove.

Fade out to a happy ending...

Lot's of room for sequels. :D:D

[sm]

TrapperReady,

Semi-worthless dawg.

You forgot Semi-worthless dawg in this play.

I "are" so disappointed...*sniff*...

*grin*

[ArmedBear]

Unfortunately, 16ga sits right between 12ga and 20ga... rmaking it seem redundant too people unfamiliar with it.

Again, now that there are many quality 12's that have balance and weight characteristics like the old 16's, the 16 may not be redundant, per se. But there's no good argument that can be made for buying a new one, either. 7/8 and 1 oz. loads pattern extremely well from a 12 Gauge.

An old 16 wouldn't be a good replacement for my little 20, either.

I understand the love people have for the old guns and the 16 that worked so well in them. However, I still don't think the 16 is poised for any kind of comeback; modern gun designs have changed things a bit, and pump guns are playing in a different court now. The shotgun market supports my assertion.

[Bud Tugly]

Look at how many different calibers there are for rifles and handguns. It would be a shame to see shotgun gauges disappear when each has advantages.

[TrapperReady]

I guess I view the 16ga kind of like the .41 Magnum or the .35 Whelen. It's good... very good. However, there's too much competition from other calibers/gauges. There's ammo available, but not a wide variety, so that's one strike. The second strike is that most modern guns (like the horrible 16ga Remington 870 of a few years ago) were apparent afterthoughts. The third and final strike is that there is no support for the 16ga in competition.

However, while I don't see 16ga growing, I do see it maintaining. There are lots of wonderful old guns available; often at a discount over 12ga or 20ga versions. Also, due to folks spreading the word on the Internet, some people are learning just how good these guns are for upland hunting.

[ArmedBear]

Trapper, what does a modern 16 offer the upland hunter when guns like the 686, 105 CTi, 391, Cordoba, and others have weight and balance like the old 16s, but in 12 Gauge?

I can see getting an old 16, but current offerings wouldn't make much sense, especially since a lot of people who don't have the "more is better" mentality already have adopted 20s and even 28s where appropriate.

[sm]

16 gauge was not around my parts coming up.
Mentors said it did well in Pheasant country, no pheasant were I was raised or am now.

Duck hunting is what we have, so 12 and 20s used
Plus 28 gauge. Lots and lots of ducks fell to 28 gauge. Some areas and private, with invite only, one could not use anything but a 28 ga or .410 for ducks, it was that special a spot.
Applied to quail, doves and small game too.

16 ga fits the Rule of 96 really really well!

"They gots pheasants and and we gots ducks; they gets 16s and we gets 12s, just how tools for tasks work out in this country of ours" Mentors

Now folks would come in to hunt ducks, bring 16s and they worked great on ducks and geese, everything else too, even skeet and trap.
Folks over the years moving in, brought 16s they had, and it was non-tox shot regs for waterfowl that had these folks get 12s.

Lever action 30-30 is used heavily here still for deer as well. Oh we have bolt guns, and open areas, just the deer are mostly harvested in thicker brush and close shots.

Location and tool for task again.

My only gripe with 16s - is me not paying attention and in reloading getting a 16 ga hull stuck on the 12 deprime stage.

Just be rocking along, snagging hulls from those policed and run into a batch and get stuck.

I have a PhD in this, trust me, I worked hard to earn that PhD.

*grin*

[TrapperReady]

ArmedBear - In my opinion, a well-made 16ga is just about the perfect compromise of payload and weight for most upland birds. I tend to find 20ga shotguns (of which I've got a few... new and old) to be almost too light. I have to actually shoot them a little differently, and really concentrate on keeping the barrels moving through the shot. 12ga guns, while extremely versatile and effective, tend to weigh a bit more than a properly scaled 16ga. It's not a bunch, but just enough to make carrying a 16ga just a bit easier.

For example, when I'm grouse hunting, the shooting window is very, very short. You basically have to always be ready to shoot. My 12ga guns tend to be very tiring to carry. The 20ga guns are lighter, but I tend to not shoot them quite as well, especially on crossing birds. The 16ga seems to be "just right".

I agree with you that modern 16ga guns tend to be somewhat lacking. The abomination that Remington came out with a few years ago was essentially a 12ga, except with a smaller hole in the barrel. It seemed like the outside diameter remained the same, so the gun weighed MORE than the 12ga. While it should have felt more nimble, the smaller gauge gun was a pig.

Now, a lightweight 12ga does have a lot going for it. A couple years ago, I came very close to picking up a Guerini Magnus Light 12ga for pheasant hunting. The thing weighed about what I'd expect a 20ga to, or less. Frankly, I think that PJR's 12ga on a 16ga frame sounds great.

One nice thing about a 16ga... ;):)

The shells fit tightly in vests with elastic shell loops. Often 20ga shells are too loose and can fall out.

Oh, and don't forget that the "more is better" crowd infects the 20ga and 28ga community as well. The 3" 20ga magnum loads and the 1oz 28ga hunting loads are pretty common... and awful in my opinion. Take a lightweight, sweet shooting, good patterning gun and turn it into a hard kicking, crappy patterning mess. No thanks!

BTW, one of my dream guns is a 16gax16gax30-30 drilling. A stag engraving on the bottom of the action, with grouse on one side and woodcock on the other. 25" barrels with a Greener action. Yeah, that would just about do it.

[ArmedBear]

I agree with you that modern 16ga guns tend to be somewhat lacking. The abomination that Remington came out with a few years ago was essentially a 12ga, except with a smaller hole in the barrel. It seemed like the outside diameter remained the same, so the gun weighed MORE than the 12ga. While it should have felt more nimble, the smaller gauge gun was a pig.

True of all too many 28's, also.

Now, a lightweight 12ga does have a lot going for it. A couple years ago, I came very close to picking up a Guerini Magnus Light 12ga for pheasant hunting. The thing weighed about what I'd expect a 20ga to, or less.

A Magnus Light weighs a good deal less than steel-frame 20 Gauge O/U's do. That's why I don't find it hard to adjust from my 12 to my 20; the 20 is lighter, but it's not toothpick-light. There's not that much room in between a 686 field gun in 12 and a steel-receiver 20 Gauge O/U; I can't see buying another gun with problematic ammo, just because it's in between 6.6 and 6.9 lb.

There's a whole spectrum of gun weights available. Even just in 12 Gauge, between the Citori Lightning at 8.1 lb. and the Franchis at 6.2 and Guerinis at 5.9, there are Rugers, other Brownings, Berettas, etc.

(Can you tell I just spent a bunch of time researching a shotgun purchase?):)

Final caveat: I've all but given up on anything but O/Us for bird hunting. We have a 3-shot limit here; I'd rather have the handling of an O/U, and two different chokes, than a pump or semiauto.

[TrapperReady]

ArmedBear - If someone is dead-set on buying a new gun, then I'd be hard-pressed to recommend a 16ga... regardless of the purpose. Old guns are another story altogether, as I think there are a bunch of good buys out there, based on properly sized actions.

FWIW, my ideas on hunting guns has shifted a bit. I had gone through a stage where I liked smaller, lighter guns. However, since I've been shooting a 9.5 lb Kolar for a year and a half, truly light guns just don't swing right anymore. I can do it (I still love my Model 42), but for it to be second nature (as in hunting), it's just not right. I think it's one reason I really like the 16ga guns I use. They're lighter for carrying, but have just enough weight to handle normally.

I think my favorite thing is shooting the .410 tubes in the Kolar. A .410 in a 9.5 lb custom-fit gun is giggle producing. I'll pull the trigger, the gun doesn't really move, and then the target breaks. The only downside is shooting a .410 event and then hustling to go shoot a 12ga event right afterwards (often a 5-stand or prelim). The first couple of pairs make a 1oz 12ga load feel like a sledgehammer. :uhoh:

One last thing about 16ga compared to 20ga. I prefer blue to yellow.

[ArmedBear]

I've made the conscious decision to use similar guns for whatever I shoot. I'm not a serious ATA guy, so I'd rather have field-applicable practice with a regular gun than the ultimate trap gun, for example. So I guess I went the other way, but for similar reasons.:)

[TrapperReady]

I've made the conscious decision to use similar guns for whatever I shoot.


Long ago, I went the route of "Vive' Le' Difference". Autos (gas, inertial, long-recoil), O/Us, pumps, singles, even a horrid old bolt. Browning, Beretta, Remington, Winchester, Benelli, Kolar, Western Field (hence the bolt). 12ga, 16ga, 20ga, 28ga, .410. In their own ways, each is fun and interesting.

As Steve would say...

Serious.

I like to have familiarity with a wide range of shotguns, rifles and handguns -- and other tools as well. I certainly have my preferences and some get used a lot more than others. However, I can use any of them effectively.

Some prefer to only use one platform, so that their skills are constantly tuned and reinforced. I can't argue with that. However, there's logic and utility in what I do as well.

There's certainly truth to the statement "It's not the arrow, it's the indian." However, there are some arrows which are strong, straight and true, while others are twisted up hunks of wood which fly about as well as Crazy Britney parents (again, that would be a Western Field reference ;)).

[JNewell]

I think 20s outnumber 12s here 2:1.

Do I remember that Mossberg made a 500 riot gun in 20g back in the 80s?

[axeman_g]

This is the type of thread that really makes THR the best and proves that there are different strokes for different folks.

All of SM and Trapper and ArmedBear's points are totally on spot when it coms to choosing a shotgun for yourself. It has taken me 20 years of buying shotguns, trying ... wanting the gun to work for me only to trade or sell it away. It just so happens that the two guns that have been in my closet the longest at 16g... A new 20gWMLH will most likely be there for a long time also once I really figure out how to shoot it well.

Here is my personal issue with 12g... they are to damn much for most jobs. I only use one to shoot trap or HD and that might change soon.

Here is my personal issue with 20g... I always seem to be behind a bird/clay whatever. Does that make sense... nope. You would think I would be ahead with the lighter faster gun... rarely if ever do I shoot over or ahead of a target.

For me 16g bust more game and clays. And dont even get me started on choke tubes... I cant stand them.

[ArmedBear]

I like to have familiarity with a wide range of shotguns, rifles and handguns -- and other tools as well. I certainly have my preferences and some get used a lot more than others. However, I can use any of them effectively.

Don't get me wrong, I like that familiarity, too, and I keep accumulating more toys to do it with.
Shooting BP revolvers, BPC rifles, AR's, bolt guns, muzzleloaders, pump, semiauto and break-action shotguns with and without ribs, semiauto pistols, lever guns, etc. doesn't mess me up. It makes me a better shooter.

There is one exception, though. Shooting an American Trap gun with a high, steeply-sloped rib DOES mess up my instinctive shotgun shooting. If I get used to floating the bird over the barrel, the next time I shoot a regular field gun, I shoot low. That's "practice" I can do without, since like I said, I'm not interested in becoming Mr. ATA.

And as far as that goes, the best shooter I know (currently within a few birds of Bunker in Beijing, and all our fingers are crossed) doesn't shoot anything but Bunker when a big match is coming up. It screws her up, plain and simple.

[TrapperReady]

Shooting an American Trap gun with a high, steeply-sloped rib DOES mess up my instinctive shotgun shooting.


Again, I would agree... which is one of several reasons why I don't shoot trap anymore. My Kolar shoots just smidge higher than 50/50, and all I shoot anymore is sporting clays, FITASC and the very occasional round of skeet. Although, now that the NSCA and NSSA have implemented the Crossfire program, I may actually try some registered skeet this year. I've already got the carrier barrels and tubes in all gauges.

FWIW, every year there is a large sporting clay shoot around here which draws a fair number of trap shooters in the Hunter class. I know quite a few of them, as I used to shoot in some trap leagues. It is amazing how poorly a lot of these guys do when faced with crossers, incomers and all the specialty targets we see in sporting. I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that they are used to guns patterning 80/20 or 100/0. While that's fine for rising trap targets, it's horrible for all-around shooting.

[Dave McCracken]

If I were to get a 16 gauge, it'd have to be about 6.5 lbs, have a LOP of 15" with drop at heel of maybe 2 3/4" and say Ansley H Fox on it someplace.

Otherwise, I'll stick to my 12s and 20. While I started on a 16, things have changed.

As to the similar gun theory, I agree. That's why there's all these 870s around here.

And the Beretta feels like an 870. So there....

[PJR]

The 3" 20ga magnum loads and the 1oz 28ga hunting loads are pretty common... and awful in my opinion. Take a lightweight, sweet shooting, good patterning gun and turn it into a hard kicking, crappy patterning mess. No thanks!
I agree completely and hold the same view about the 3.5" 12 gauge.

On the 16 gauge I'll take a vow of silence. ;)

[TrapperReady]

Here is my personal issue with 20g... I always seem to be behind a bird/clay whatever.


axeman_g - That's not uncommon at all. The lightweight guns are quick to get started, but also quick to slow down. It's one reason why I shoot my 9.5 lb Kolar so well... once in motion, it tends to stay in motion. When I shoot our 20ga Benelli (which is like a wand), I have to intentionally push or pull through with my forward hand in order to make sure that it's moving throughout the swing. It's not that I can't do it, but it takes additional concentration.

I also find that sometimes I'll tend to aim a bit more with small-gauge shotguns. It's not so pronounced with the 20ga models, but 28ga and .410 can feel almost like rifles to me, and on straight-away or shallow-angle quartering birds, I'll sometimes start to shoot it like a rifle instead of a shotgun. When/if I end up getting a 28ga, it'll likely be a SxS, so that it's got a wider sighting plane.

[sixgunner455]

20ga SxS, old Spanish one, is the only shotgun I've ever owned. Love it. I can/have shot lots of other guns. FIL has a 12 870 Wingmaster that is beautiful and I have shot many pheasants with it. But when I decided I needed to stop borrowing shotguns, I got a 20, and I got it SxS because all I ever do with shotguns is follow my dog around while we look for birds, and practice a few times a year shooting at clays. If I put a couple hundred rounds through it every six months, I'm shooting it a lot. I wouldn't want it to be a 12 -- I really prefer shooting a 20.

[plumberroy]

28 gauge, oh heck yeah! I know what it can and cannot do, including with 28 ga slugs.


Sm Tell me about these 28 ga. slugs I have developed my own slug with a roundball I would like to know about anything else available
As far as this thread goes At 25 I had the attitude that bigger is all ways better nothing kicked to hard 12 was good If shells where afordable 10 would have been better
I will turn 46 this week, I find out of All the shotguns I have [A dozen plus]when I walk out the door with a shotgun most of the time the gun under my arm is a n.e.f. youth gun in 28 ga. that I put a choate adult synthetic stock, choate storearm fore arm and a Hi-Vis bead on It kills rabbits in front of my beagles just fine works for dove ,squirrel,grouse just fine and is a joy to carry
I would not be above trying to call a turkey in If I could call one within 25 yards he would be dinner Before any one jumps on the 28 ga ain't big enough band wagon take into accout I am very good at estimating short range yardage[100 yards and under] and have the self control to not take a shot past my self imposed range limit
Roy
Disclaimer : this is the opinion of a middle aged hillbilly plumber that
has been down the road a time or two and are based on my personal
knowledge and experiences offered to hopefully help you since we live
in a free country you have the right to have a different opinion,
Some one asked the question I am just trying to help
Roy

[bwavec]

I have turned several ladies that I know on to 20 gauges as a HD weapon that can still be used to hunt with. The best choice so far has been Rem 1100 Youth.

The main reason for them that has been better than the 12ga (which is my choice-for reasons that need not be gone into here), is that they will actually SHOOT the 20ga !

They were very gun shy about the 12ga after just a couple of shots. So much so, that even if I had bought them one myself, they still would have never shot it and become proficient and comfortable with it.

They like to shoot the 20 and are able to put rounds on target in a variety of situations, and handle the weapon comfortably and confidently.

[sm]

plumberroy and bwavec,

Life is cyclic. Folks are born, they get old, and this cycle of young and old repeats.
We have an aging society, and just the way the population is after World Wars, Koren War, and the Baby Boom.

Other societies throughout history have gone this same cycle. Wars are fought, young men go off to war and ladies, kids and elders keep the home fires burning.

Tools for kids, ladies and elders need to fit them.
The elders , both ladies and gents, used to be able to effectively and efficiently use the tools the ones that went off to war used, just time takes a toll on a body.
The younger persons, the kids are not fully developed yet, some of the ladies are expecting and some tools just do not work well for smaller framed persons such as ladies, especially those heavy with child.

Young men go off to War, and some return not whole, and they are not able to use the tools they went to war with.


Growing up, Veterans of previous Wars lived near, and there was a Veterans Hospital.
Vietnam was going on, and again ladies and gents that went to 'Nam, came home not whole and not able to use the tools they had left being able to use, nor the tools used in 'Nam.

We have those that left for Desert Storm, and other Theatres currently active with Conflicts, that left kids, expectant wives, parents, and even grandparents at home.

Cyclic. History.

28 gauge is a very effective , more than it is supposed to be, and one reason is the short shot string of the pattern it produces. Payload to bore diameter ratio is the key.
True bore diameter for 28 ga is .550
.54 caliber is not that much different than .550.
.54 caliber was used to fell deer, elk, bear and used in War and is still used in Black powder firearms.

Mentors, including these ladies and gents Vets of War, believed in kids and new shooters learning on a 28 ga shotgun. They could break every target on a skeet field, fell birds, small game, and they knew if a .550 slug was fired, it could fell deer, and take care of a rabid dawg or other pests.

Kids, ladies, expecting or not, and the elders , whether they had been in conflicts or not, could carry for distances a 28 ga shotgun, if nothing more than a single shot 28 ga.
Mentors, those mentored, and the Cycle continues.

Ballistic Products is just one source for slugs ( round ball) for 28 ga.

20 gauge.

Cyclic, History again.
12 ga is the most versatile gauge, and offers the most load choices, always has and 20 bore is next up.

Not every demographic used 28 ga, just the way locations are , and uses for shotguns.

One constant remains, and that is a bigger person can effectively use a smaller gun where a smaller person cannot always effectively use a bigger gun.
Home shotguns , like the single shot, were often Youth 20 ga guns.
Anyone in the house, could effectivley use that shotgun behind the kitchen door, or over the mantle.

From a kid, to expectant mom, to grandma, to grandpa, to the bigger, stronger healthier husband and grown boys- everyone could use the Youth 20 bore.

Semi-Auto shotguns deal with the recoil curve different that other platforms, and therefore less perceived recoil .
In a 20 ga, we also have smaller receivers and easier to handle, to carry and some uses like shooting a round of skeet, which is 25 rounds, or competition, 100 rds, this lessens fatigue, from not only shooting, also having to hold the gun.

Hunting, one often walks more than shoots, or again, is having to hold that gun, and add be still about it. Anything gets heavy holding and handling, no matter how much it weighs.
Just hold you arm out straight and in short order, your arm is "heavy" and one can feel the strain on muscles and notice shakes and movements...due to the strain of just the arm and hand held straight out.

Best kept secret is a 20 ga semi auto.
Another is a 28 ga semi-auto shotgun too. One of the best guns to teach new shooters on, and one a person with physical limits can carry, tote, hold and shoot more safely.

It was not uncommon to see the Mentors and Kids, use 28 ga single shots, including slugs.
The Mentor, had aches, pains and scars from War, the kid was getting woodscraft skills on deer hunting, bird hunting, small game hunting.

Same applies to Semi-Auto shotguns in 28 and 20 ga.
Those Mentoring could / can more effectively pass forward and the ones being mentored could / can effectively be passed onto.


Cyclic, History.

Folks do not want to learn correct basic fundamentals of anything.
The ones that have lived longer and have life experiences are ignorant and fools, as bigger is better, newer is better, and modern tools will do tasks without having to learn all that old antiquated teachings.

Mentors walk off, and quit mentoring.
Some are approached by those that want what the mentors have, and the Cycle continues in private lessons.

Some mentors walk off, or die off and what they have to share is never passed on anymore.

Cyclic, History again are those that age, and have physical limits hit with injury, sickness, disease, or take on a wife, and have kids.

Where are the Mentors? There was somethings they had to share about all this, where are they now?

I understand all this. I was one that started very young, and have always been one to hang with the Mentors and those with something to pass forward.
I was chided, kidded, ribbed, and made fun of for running with the old folks and the ones younger than me.

I also walked off before The Great Equipment race even got started , to never return.

[foghornl]

Started shotgunning with "Pops" 16-Ga Mdl 94B Savage/Stevens...Had that some sort of synthetic "Tenite" stock...was a serious 'thumper' on both ends.

Next shotgun was a "Sportsman" Model Remington 20-Ga, similar to the Browning A-5. Did well with that one till we HAD to start using that *&^(&&** steel shot for waterfowl. Those first few years of steel loads in the 20-Ga were uhhhmmm less than satisfactory. Didn't know at the time that the OLD shotguns were NOT for use with the steel stuff, so that probably contributed to the poor performance....and it was a full-choke, too. All 3 of my local [at the time] shops said that if gun was safe with modern lead loads, the steel stuff was OK, too.

Didn't even shoot a full box of the steel stuff, though, so I probably didn't wreck the barrel....too much.

Quit shootin' at ducks till I got the Maverick 88 12-Ga.

For just about anything but turkey/waterfowl, yeah I gotta get another 20-Ga...

Have the so-called "Non-Toxic" loads for the 20-Ga improved? The current 12-Ga ammo is much better than the early stuff, so I suspect other guages are better, too.

[sm]

Bismuth.
I was messing with Bismuth before non-tox was mandated.
NILO report was interesting in regard to non-tox .
I have lost my copy, I need to get another.

For the new folks NILO is OLIN backwards and OLIN being associated with Winchester.

WE were raised using woodscraft skills and we did not sky bust.
We used 28 ga to fell a slew of ducks and geese!

Some places only allowed one to use 28 ga or smaller on ducks...

Bing Crosby had some prime duck hunting areas and his guests were restricted to 28 ga or .410.
He is not the only known person to request this, and this way before non-tox was mandated.

I and mine were just piddlin', something to do, and messing with loads, choke, patterns and all with Bismuth, and everything else we did, like cubed shot, flat shot, and even "two loads" which many many years later Rem would call Duplex loads.
[we always thought ...nah...Rem would not get an idea like that from someone like us...]

I and mine were not anal or compulsive, just get a wild hair and piddle, and we were curious about some things and just investigated.

Bismuth is akin to lead and not harmful to bores like steel.

I have not kept up with it to be honest.
I'd check regs on using reloads for waterfowl first, then if legal reload getting with MEC and whomever one gets Bismuth from on some Bismuth recipes.

Quite a few folks want to take an older gun out to shoot a duck or two, and not hurt the gun.

Granted I would want to use Bismuth in 28 ga, just for ...being me.

[sm]

...Being the Rebel I am.

I started young and had fun with all the pattern board, moving pattern boards, load, choke , gauge and all testing, research, investigation and all.
Just piddling and learning.

I really do just show up a lot without a gun, or ammo and use what is handy.
I don't care.
I focus on target and not equipment and just shoot the darn gun.

Duck Hunting.
I show up and one of the folks has a H&R Youth 20 gauge single shot just like mine.
Granted I am the reason he has one, as do others...
Fixed modified choke, factory recoil pad.

"Gimmee that one, now does anyone have shells to fit this thing?" - I asked.
Well some 2 3/4" 20 ga shells were found, and I used these.

Just a hodgepode of 2 3/4" , 20 ga, steel shot by various makers and whatever shot size.
I didn't care, nobody could remember if these had even been patterned...I wa trying to recall, still I shrugged and did not care.

I was out to have fun, with good folks, and the dawgs.

Flooded Timber and I can't blow a duck call, feed call pretty good, still I can't whistle worth a flip, so forget any fancy duck calling.

Not to mention, when one has hunted with the ladies and gent World Champion Duck Callers and runner up...you don't call.

Listening and watching these ladies and gents is totally awesome!

So one of the daughters , about 19 is going to call, I mean a good looking thing in neoprene, and can flat call, not quite as good as her mom or dad, still she is well on her way.

I am wearing borrowed , old time hip waders, blue jeans, faded khaki shirt, and old waxed cotton jacket.
I do not do camo, never have and most folks I ran/run with do not either.

"Hey old fart, where you want the ducks?" this 19 y/o says.

Now dekes are out, I know the yardages , as we all do, along with yardages of various timber.

"Oh gimme a incomer and one going away..." - I said
"Okey Dokey!" she says.

Just made sense to shoot a double at H8 facing high house in flooded timber.
The dawg that was near was grinning, he seemed to like this idea.

She called - and damn! She could call, she brought them ducks down and one Green head come down, low and fast and at me , I wait, I wait, I wait some more, and then from low ready mount gun to face, slap trigger and this duck falls damn near at my feet...

Green head is coming from behind and has afterburners on...
Break gun, shell pops out, shove shell from weak hand, get gun closed and "bang".

Dawg is looking at me, sorta grinning...
"Oh, first you fell one so close I can't retrieve, and now you want me to retrieve that second duck?".

He did not have far to go, only 20 yds or so.

I had a ball, dawg and I got fussed at:

"You get my dawg fat on them do-nut holes in your pocket I am going to hurt you" - 19 year old said.

"Yeah, and you get do-nut holes in my high dollar Topper , I am going to laugh myself silly " he dad sad.

"I'm going to cook the boy fried pies if he fells a duck with a do-nut hole" - said the mom/wife.

"Oh dear! Don't tell him that, durn fool is liable to try it" replied dad/hubby.

"Anybody know if do-nut holes are legal non-tox loads for duck?' - I asked.

I had to inform the one dawg that had taken a shine to me, I was only kidding about giving his do-nut holes away like that.

Don't ask me what loads, I did not pay attention , did not care and have since forgotten.
I felled 5 ducks with 5 shots that morning.
None of us missed what we shot at that morning either...

Including the deer.

Season ran together, we are back from the boat ride and outside just drinking coffee, smoking and deciding on what to do next. I had to leave shortly.

19 year old looks behind us, and her eye said "don't move".
Her dad, mom and I stay still and she eases over and snags that Youth 20 gauge.
She mouths "deer".
She eases around the front of the truck, and one shot, using a slug fells this Spike that was "jogging" 20-25 steps away.

"Daddy, would you get that taken care of
Steve has to leave and we all said we were going into to town to eat".


"Daddy, I cleaned yours (his buck he took) last time...its your turn to take care of mine".

Farm hands took care of the deer, we cleaned up, went to town to eat...

Really and truly folks do not get wrapped around the axle on all this shotgun stuff, they have correct basics, the trigger time, understand patterns , habitat and all.

We have fun listening to excuses of the Camo clad, with the expensive shotgun of the week , and not felling ducks, geese, deer, turkeys and missing clays.

"Duck hunting....deer? Naw we just come to town to eat and all"
Said her dad to some folks that asked if we gone out or even hunted.
They had a bad morning and felled no ducks.

s

[patokari]

My 20 ga gets the most use. Citori Feather Sporting XS. I've been shooting all 12, 16, 20 and 28 guages; semi-auto and over-unders for many years for upland game, "on the farm range" :o clays games, squirel, rabbit, turtle doves, etc. and I have had many different guns. I can say that my Citori is the fastest pointing, lightest carry, and very low recoil from all those I had previously.

My Citori 20ga serves IT'S purpose well.

So does my 12ga Turkey gun.

My point here is that every shooter will eventually find THE right gun for him and IT's purpose.

It's very hard to say that the 20ga is the best all purpose shotgun because each season or sport will be approached in a different manner from the same individual... ?