Marlin 39 Postal Match 2


January 20, 2008, 11:58 PM
The Marlin 39 Club Valentines Day 3x5 Heartbreaker Challenge

Eligible Firearms: Any variation of Marlin Model 39 is eligible. Any sight system is allowed though scores will be listed under Magnified or UN-Magnified categories.

Ammo: Any Ammunition that will function in your 39 is legal.

Target: 3x5 card index card. It may be shot plain or with a heart shaped aiming point. The heart may be a sticker or drawn on the target but must be small enough to covered with a U.S.A quarter. Shoot as many as you like and submit your best. You can also submit more than once if manage to better your first entry so long as it arrives by the deadline, so shoot early and often.

Range: 25 yards

Positions: One target Off Hand (“the way John Wayne did it” –Shaky Jake) AND another target any other way you want – Benched, sitting, prone, kneeling, sitting on a horse…. You may submit targets for both the Magnified Class and the UnMagnified Class and for those fortunate enough to own more than one Marlin 39 you may submit targets for each one you own or can borrow.

Number of shots per Target: Three

Scoring: Group size determined by measuring the distance between
shots 1 and 2, 2 and 3, 3 and 1 added together for score. The distance measured from center of the group from the center of the card will be used to break ties.

Bonus Match: LARGEST GROUP on a 3x5 Index Card. Must be three consecutive shots, no shooting around the edges until you have three holes. Submitted targets must be marked “Red Neck” because the inspiration for this match came from Mal who literally duct taped a scope on a Model 39 ( ) to compete in the previous match. I believe Foxworthy said that was a sign that “you might be a red neck.”

Prizes? We’ll figure that out later. It’ll be tough to beat the “Skeeter Certificate” though.

All targets must be received by February 14th 2008.

Submit Targets to me via Snail Mail (PM for my address) with the following information included.

1. Shooter forum name and/or family relation
2. Magnified or Non-Magnified
3. Model and Vintage if known.
4. Sights (i.e. Swarovski Optik Z6i 2-12x50 or Skinner peep sights)
5. Shooting position (i.e Offhand, Benched/or anything else)
6. Indoor/Outdoor (weather conditions)
7. Ammo

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Fast Frank
January 21, 2008, 12:21 AM
I'm in!

Consider this my official notice of intent to win!

January 21, 2008, 06:14 AM

Now all I've got to do is get a day off between now and the deadline
(last one was in August), and temper my expectations by the fact
that this will be the first time I've shot my nearly new,
still-not-properly-sighted 39 for the first time since June,
when it went in the shop for a FTF problem.

What's that? Why, no, thank you,
I won't accept a handicap.

It'll be a learning experience,
and the winner (perhaps named Frank)
will set a bar for the next match.


January 21, 2008, 10:06 AM
It's 19 degrees as I write this but I may scoot out to the range today anyway and finish sighting in my three week old 39AS. This looks like the perfect push I needed to get out there and do it.


January 21, 2008, 10:59 AM

Temps are down here too but spirits are high so count me in. This should get me out from in front of the fire and out from under the wife's feet:D
It's tough being retired;)

Best of luck to everyone. Since we are all tied at this point guess we can't start bragging yet, huh?


January 21, 2008, 12:42 PM
Can you submit separate entries in an attempt for the smallest group and the largest group?

Mal H
January 21, 2008, 02:07 PM
Let's get it on!!

I have stickified this thread for easy access and visibility.

It seems pretty straightforward, but like waterhouse, I need a little clarification on the match.

I take it we shoot 2 3X5's; one off-hand (elbow not supported on body), and one freestyle so to speak. And those can be shot either magnified or non-magnified. That would yield 4 targets to submit if we shoot in both categories. The clarification part: are the cards submitted considered to be paired? IOW, if we shoot a better off-hand card later on, can that be submitted alone to replace the off-hand card of the previous set we submitted?

The bonus match is 3 shots only attempting to shoot as large a group as possible. This also is freestyle?

All at 25 yds.

Ol Korrect?

January 21, 2008, 02:16 PM
Let's see if I can get a warm enough day at the range between now and the deadline.

January 21, 2008, 09:17 PM
Waterhouse: Yes, you can submit entries for both largest AND smallest group.

Example of what is allowed per rifle/ shooter:
1 target offhand for smallest group you can shoot.
+ another target shot from any other position (freestyle).
then mount a scope (or take it off..) and shoot another off hand target AND another "freestyle" target
for a total of 4 targets.

For the 'Bonus Match' you can shoot 4 MORE targets using the same rifle, magnified or unmagnified but try to get the BIGGEST groups possible onto a 3x5 card.

Total 8 targets possible per rifle.

Mal: Each target is an entry by itself. You can submit 1 or more. All will count up to 8 per rifle. "upgrading" your target is OK should you produce a better, or worse group in a category you have already submitted a target for.

My goal is to get us shooting our 39's, to have fun and to do it with 'friends.' Thanks to Nem I discovered I'm not the only 39 nut growing on the tree.

Good luck everyone! Get shootin!

January 21, 2008, 09:32 PM
Fast Frank: Ya gotta like a guy that tells ya where he stands. Best of luck to you pard! Sorry about the short range but after seeing you blast a rock at 200 yards I figured this would be the best way to handicap you.

Nem: I sincerely hope you get your 39 back and send me some 3x5s you killed with it. In your case I'm willing to let you compete with your tomahawk just to get you involved.

DJR: I'm especially glad to see some rookie talent entering the fray. I'm looking forward to some 3x5's that still have the 'new gun smell' on em.

Rim: You give me hope that in retirement there will be something besides a honey-do list to look forward too.

Sistema: Good luck with the weather and the shooting!

Mal H
January 22, 2008, 12:42 AM
Sorry about being dull here. ;) But, it's best to get these questions out of the way early.

The Bonus round - we can shoot 2 cards, one offhand and one freestyle for each sight category? The only difference in the Bonus round and the accuracy round is that we are seeking the largest group rather than the smallest. (It wasn't clear in the first post that the Bonus was anything more than a single card, but your explanation to waterhouse implied we shoot 2 cards.)

Lastly, by "benched" do you mean bench supported as in the previous match, i.e., one elbow can be supported on a bench. Or do you mean true bench rest shooting is allowed - sand bags, stock support - the whole 9 yards?

January 22, 2008, 07:36 AM
Mal: Yes, the bonus round allows for up to 4 more entries. Off hand magnified, offhand unmagnified, freestyle magnified, freestyle unmagnified.

Benched can mean front rest, rear sandbags if one is so inclined. It is an unrestricted category. Shooter's choice.

Fast Frank
January 22, 2008, 07:39 PM
As some of you may remember, I have a Buddie that owns a model 39 that survived a house fire.

I cleaned it up for him a while back and posted some pics.

So, I'm at work today, and he comes walking in.

(Frank) "Hey, do you still have that burned up .22?"

(Bud) "Yeah, but I haven't touched it since you cleaned it up for me. That thing is scarey accurate... I don't know why I haven't been shooting it."

(Frank) "Well, it's been sitting for about six months, don't you think it should be lubed up a little so it doesn't rust again?"

(Bud) "Yeah... but I just don't have the time."

(Frank) "Why don't you bring it over so I can shoo... I mean clean it? I'll spiffy it all up for you and make sure the sights are adjusted right!":evil:

Looks like I may have a contestant for the iron sited AND magnified classes!

January 22, 2008, 08:27 PM
I want to see the video of you popping the rock with the irons!

Hey Fast, I didn't plan on you competing without the Parallax Handicap. :neener:

January 23, 2008, 08:27 PM
JustsayMo, thanks for hosting this one, I'm sure you'll have fun with it. Count me in, I just need a good day to get to the range between now and Feb 14.

My apologies to johnmcl and Mal H., I still haven't gotten your mosquitoes in the mail from the last match. I have no good excuse, printed them out a and still never got it done. So now, with this new match as an incentive, I have gotten them in envelops. Maybe they will make it the mail tomorrow. I was going to join Procrastinators Anonymous but... :o

January 23, 2008, 08:59 PM
I discovered a nest.

These are foam stick ons, I hope they can take being shot. Then again, they probably won't even be hit.

I seriously considered buying a full size Marlin 39A at the gunshow this weekend. Yes, this match was one of my "reasons" for doing so.

January 23, 2008, 09:32 PM
I'm going to try to find some heart stickers in the next day or so. I have to get moving on this as I'm flying down to El Paso on the 7th and won't be back 'til the 17th so the clock is ticking for me.

I've got Friday and Saturday off so I'm going to try to get something accomplished then. It hasn't been getting above freezing here the last few days so this may be a situation where I'll have to leave the truck running and jump out, shoot, then jump back in to warm up. :(

I don't have a dedicated .22 scope and the only one I have with an AO that isn't otherwise employed is this old Burris 6X18 that is old school to say the least. Okay, I know it's hinkey but I really want to shoot this match and the CFO has forbidden any more gun related purchases until at least next month. Guess you will all be shakin' in your boots after you lay eyes on this :what:



Fast Frank
January 23, 2008, 09:39 PM
Nice setup!

How's it shoot?:p

Cmdr. Gravez0r
January 23, 2008, 09:43 PM
what if my "large group" is smaller than my "small group?" Hehe.

January 23, 2008, 09:49 PM
I'm worried my small group entry will be mistaken for a large group entry!

January 23, 2008, 09:57 PM
Fast Frank - I don't know. :) I shot it one day to see that it went bang but aside from that it's right out of the box. The scope is just thrown on there to see if I have any ammunition that the rifle likes better than the rest. Pulled it off of an old 581 Remington that was gathering dust yesterday. Don't think you guys have anything to fear from me but I'm glad for the push to get out and shoot.


Fast Frank
January 23, 2008, 10:10 PM
Scared? No way!:D

I lost the last match MISERABLY and it's all uphill from there!:neener:

Welcome to the 39 club, by the way!

January 23, 2008, 10:16 PM
Scared? No way!

I lost the last match MISERABLY and it's all uphill from there!

Welcome to the 39 club, by the way!

You need to quit reminding me how bad you shot in the last match.


I happen to think you did exceptionally well. :D

January 25, 2008, 09:19 AM
Well, I'm headed out to the range this morning. Wish me luck. It's 10 degrees right now and I suppose the best I can hope for is 15 by 8:00 or so. I'm pretty sure I'll have the range to myself. :D


January 25, 2008, 11:13 AM
well it is suppose to warm up this weekend i will try to get my old rifle out to the range! mmmmmmmmm this might just be a heck of a lot of fun

January 25, 2008, 03:08 PM
I'm back. First, I LOVE THIS RIFLE! Spent three and a half hours shooting it in temperatures from 15 to 25 degrees. Wind was calm which is extremely rare around here. Sunny.

Got to scoot, much to do yet today. I'll try to get a range report in this afternoon. I do have the two magnified cards that I will submit so that has been accomplished but the real news is I've totally bonded with this rifle. I don't expect to be competitive but that was never the idea.

I'll try to get these cards in the mail today.



January 25, 2008, 04:34 PM
Okay, I've got a few minutes between appointments so here's a mini-range report.

Got out to the range about 8:00 this morning. No wind, but cold at 15 degrees. Set up on the 25 yd. line which I find is the only one that doesn't have a nice cement bench. Shooting off of a wood table which seemed to work okay but not as solid as I'd like.

Started off with some sighter rounds to adjust the scope. Not real pleased with how those looked but I figured the rifle just didn't like Remington HV hollow points. After that I tried Armscor Precision Std Vel. HPs, Federal bulk pack HPs, CCI Green Tags, and Remington Sub Sonics, none of which produced any really consistent groups.

Then I tried some Winchester Wildcat HPs. Boy howdy does this rifle like these! Like throwing a switch. Shot all that I had off the bench. Picked the best for the benched/magnified side of the match.

Back to shooting everything else for the unsupported part. Picked one that was shot with the Rem. HV HPs.

Probably put more than 400, but less than 500 rounds downrange and had an absolute blast. Not sure if I will be able to get back out before I leave for Texas but next Monday is a possibility. I would like to take a crack at the unmagnified shooting.

Here's a couple of pictures.


Fast Frank
January 26, 2008, 12:55 AM
Looks like you had all the fun today!

I had to work.:barf:

Two thumbs up for being willing to go out in the cold!

Down here in Texas, we hide when it's 15 degrees outside.

Are you getting any vertical stringing with that big scope?

January 26, 2008, 08:48 AM
New to the board and would like to participate in this and future 39A postal do I send you an PM so I can have your address? :confused:

Fast Frank
January 26, 2008, 09:17 AM

Welcome to the high road!

You can access your Private Messages by clicking the link right below where your name is at the top of this page.

Send your PM to JUSTSAYMO.

Also, feel free to drop in over here-

We would love to see a pic of your rifle!

January 26, 2008, 09:32 AM
Welcome bluemountain!

Another way to PM is to find a posting of Justsaymo's, left click on it and a drop down menu will appear. The second choice on the menu is "send a private message to ______"

Glad to have you, what do you have? - an old girl, a new one, a mountie, 39D, pics? Post 'em if you got 'em in the Marlin 39A Clubhouse.

January 26, 2008, 10:12 AM
Fast Frank - I was anticipating problems after I read your posts but actually there was no verticle stringing at all. At one point I could feel a looseness and tightened the rings and mounts. No good. Pulled the scope and tried to put a little more on the base. Still no good.

Playing with it I found the take down bolt on the rifle had backed off enough to allow some slop. Tightened it up and I was back in business. The rifle shot very well I thought. Of course it likes the stuff I have the least of but that's my luck.

I think my scope is sooo big it tends to dampen itself out. :D


January 26, 2008, 10:44 AM
bluemntceltic: By your handle I figure you are East of me somewhere, I'm in the tri-cities. This is a terrific excuse to shoot and I had a great time doing that yesterday. It was only the second time I've had my rifle out and I could have stayed out there all day. Good luck in the match, my only purpose here is to make the rest of you look good. ;)


January 26, 2008, 11:31 AM
Blue, I sent you a PM with the information. Let me know if you get it.

It's good to see other 39 enthusiasts are residents of the evergreen state. I met another "local" at our club's range last summer but I've forgotten his handle. He bought Shum's 39D. Sweet rifle! I must admit being a little envious of you guys on the (better) Eastside of the state. My wife and I are looking for property there as Seattle's vile political influence pollutes more and more of this side.

It's the weekend, time to go shootin! Best of luck everyone!

January 27, 2008, 09:53 PM
Went to the range today, 70 degrees, high clouds, winds 10-20 mph with some gusts but a good day. My wife went with me and we have our first 'relative' in a postcard match. She only shot for best groups, both John Wayne style and on a bench, while I shot best and bonus match cards from both the John Wayne and bench.

I'm sure you are all dying to know... yes she kicked my butt. I think I got her beat on the bench, it's close, but she out John Wayne'd me. :o

The good of having a wife that shoots beats the bad of getting beat by a girl. :D :p :p

Fast Frank
January 27, 2008, 11:04 PM
Jag, She sounds like a keeper!

I went to the range today, too, but because the "Good" range was closed I just shot 50 yards.

it was fun, and I learned some things.

I'm gonna kill some cards next week.

January 28, 2008, 07:54 AM
Frank, it looks like you missed the fog yesterday morning. ASC was delayed opening by 1.5 hrs due to fog. I learned some things:

1. Penny sized pink & light purple hearts are really hard to see in the fog. Red is almost as hard. Dark purple works well. Penny size is almost too small in low light conditions.
2. The front bead doesn't work well with the Skinner peeps. A new front sight from Dr. Skinner is on its way.
3. It's weird shooting in 4 layers of clothes. You guys up north will chuckle at that but I'm a Florida boy. I had several groups thrown off my POA by an inch or two. One group I would have happily mailed in - probably 3 MOA center to center! - but the 3rd shot was off the card!

More practice, esp. mounting the rifle directly to natural POA. Cooper recommends about 3 seconds from raising the rifle to "compressed break" of the trigger.

January 28, 2008, 08:23 AM
You guys are killin' me. It's 6 degrees as I write this. Snowed all day yesterday. Power was out for two hours last night. Last day of hunting season yesterday so my son and I went out after church.

I have only one window of opportunity to shoot my rifle for the unmagnified side of the match. That will be Monday one week from today. Unless conditions moderate it's going to be tough.

Here are a couple of pictures from yesterday. If you scroll back up the page to the pictures I posted at the range you can see how conditions have changed since Friday when it was just cold.


January 28, 2008, 12:49 PM
New here also and I too would like to try this match. Have a 39A Golden with a tang sight for cowboy side matches that I rarely use. Looking forward to it if weather cooperates. I will get the PM and such avfter I shoot the cards. Gus.

January 28, 2008, 04:09 PM
Well pards, the first entry has arrived. DJR has submitted some mighty impressive targets for the scoped freestyle and scoped John Wayne categories. I haven't measured yet but we have our work cut out for us.

That's some fine shootin' DJR! I don't imagine there are many livin' varmints around your place. We should have made you shoot in the snow! The cold weren't enough.

January 28, 2008, 04:29 PM
Welcome Gus! Git busy shootin'

Don't worry we plan on having a series of these matches. Might even allow some outlaw levergun categories (Browning, Winchester, Henry, Ruger) for fellas not lucky enough to own Marlins :p Maybe even a future match that requires yer sixshooter too. Lots of ideas we'll save and use in subsequent matches.

Best of luck to you!

Fast Frank
January 28, 2008, 06:02 PM
I don't have a six-gun.

But having a .22 rifle and .22 pistol combo match sounds like fun!

January 28, 2008, 10:03 PM
All Right!!!!!!!!!! I'm temporarily in first place! Of course I'm also in last place but I won't dwell on that. :(


January 29, 2008, 07:45 AM
All Right!!!!!!!!!! I'm temporarily in first place! Of course I'm also in last place but I won't dwell on that.


Don't worry, I'll drop my cards in the mail today and then you can stop worrying about last place. :p

January 29, 2008, 08:30 AM
Jaguar - Well, maybe. But from what you said about your wife's shooting I can probably also stop worrying about first. ;)

Fast Frank - If you actually shot 3X5 cards at the 50 yard range Sunday I think you would be within the rules to turn them in. Don't think there's any max. range. Just trying to be helpful. ;)


Fast Frank
February 1, 2008, 12:19 AM
The weather is looking like I MIGHT get to shoot Monday.

Cross your fingers and toes, guys... I need a break in the rain.

February 1, 2008, 03:43 AM
I need a break in the rain.Dude, I can so relate.

It's rained or snowed here every day for the last three weeks.
Some days more than others, but every day has been cold as well.

I'm ready for warm and dry.

Mr. Ground Hog better predict an early spring on Saturday,
or I'm gonna take my 39 out ... and challenge him to a 3x5 match.

Given what he's shooting, I'll win.

February 1, 2008, 08:15 PM
I shot this card today. It's not the target I'll turn in but it's pretty good shooting for iron sights - the heart is the size of a penny.

I started singing to myself "Shot through the heart / And you're to blame" and thought - we ought to have a special mention for the person who shoots their heart target the most times.

The Cupid Award!

February 1, 2008, 08:23 PM
If we don't get any more snow I'll be shooting iron sights on Monday. My expectations aren't very high but if singing helps I'll give it a try.


February 1, 2008, 08:50 PM
Just got Mr & Mrs Jags' entries. Nothing official yet but I suspect Mrs Jag is the new leader in the Non-Magnified John Wayne category. Mr Jag also submitted the first Bonus targets and currently leads in both divisions.

Of the targets submitted so far the newer rifles -- 2006 & 2007 vintages -- are outperforming the older models and currently leading in all categories. It's early so but those of us with rifles from the previous century have some catching up to do.

Fast Frank
February 1, 2008, 09:18 PM
I stopped by Gander Mountain to grab a box of Green Tag for this weekend.

Man, I just couldn't do it.

You know, I make enough money to buy a Eighteen Dollar box of bullets, but I'm just not going to do it.

I refuse. These guys are asking eighteen cents a shot for green tag!

I'll shoot the match with something else.

February 1, 2008, 09:32 PM
I'm actually sitting on a bunch of CCI GTs but my rifle didn't show any particular fondness for them when I was shooting the magnified targets. Monday I'll try whatever I have left that I haven't tried yet. Nothing exotic but several different brands of target stuff.


February 1, 2008, 09:50 PM
$18 bucks - ouch. Like DJR, my Marlin and CZ are pretty indifferent to the Green Tags. I shot the match with Federal Gold Medal with good results.

Since this is an offhand contest, to what standard do we shoot? It's kinda fun to compare my offhand shooting to the Civil War sharpshooters:

The late Ned Roberts (of .257 Roberts fame) was taught to shoot by his uncle Alvaro Annis, who had been one of Berdan's Sharpshooters during the Civil War. Roberts wrote that his uncle "insisted that a good rifleman with a good rifle should be able to hit a silver dollar at 10 rods (55 yards] offhand, five times in succession." (The Breech Loading Single-Shot Rifle).

In another book (The Muzzle Loading Cap Lock Rifle), Roberts wrote: "Uncle Alvaro... frequently told me that the "real rifleman" should be able to keep his bullets in an 8-inch bull's-eye at 40 rods [220 yards] offhand shooting."

Okay, it's actually kinda humiliating to compare my shooting to these guys. This standard is 2 MOA, offhand! John Wayne never shot that good.

February 1, 2008, 11:08 PM
It's official. Mrs. JAG is the current NON-Magnified JW and freestyle leader!

February 2, 2008, 04:11 AM
That's very cool. :cool:

February 2, 2008, 08:55 AM
It's official. Mrs. JAG is the current NON-Magnified JW and freestyle leader!

Out of how many shooters so far?

I was pretty sure my freestyle card was better. But as I learned in the last match, you never know until you measure it. I had a nice three shot triangle, quite close, and my wife had three shots on a horizontal line that had her furthest two further than any of mine. In retrospect getting the middle shot in tight helped where having a triangle pattern increased all the measurements.

Stoopid scoring system, who's bright idea was that anyway? :cuss: ;)

February 2, 2008, 10:11 AM
Mrs. Jag's group edged your excellent unmagnified freestyle group by .010" using the official JAG ;):p measuring method; 1-2, 2-3, 3-1. Your group was excellent but Mrs. Jag has us all beat in both the divisions she entered. So far she's ahead of four shooters.

Making a strong showing for rookie of the match is DJR. I suspect DJR is the great grandson of Annie Oakley. His magnified groups are mighty impressive and based on the previous match results will likely be very competitive. We'll see if he can shoot with the irons as well. The cold conditions and newness of the rifle didn't seem to hinder him much.

Fast Frank
February 3, 2008, 01:10 AM
So I'm sitting here, in the middle of the night, drawing little hearts on index cards, right?:D

Little Ralphie's fantasies about Black Bart have got NOTHING on on the butt whipping I'm handing out in my mind right now!:p

February 3, 2008, 09:48 AM

February 3, 2008, 11:52 AM
Awwwww! I need a Marlin 39!!! This just looks like too much fun!! :)

February 3, 2008, 03:14 PM
It has indeed been great fun and the good news is there is still time. Go borrow or better yet buy a 39 (you need one anyway) and you're there.

Today I'm putting heart stickers (Walmart has the perfect ones) on 3x5s in preparation for my big day tomorrow. I have nothing else on the agenda for tomorrow but shooting. I'm taking a huge thermos of coffee (so I'll be at my best) along with chili, crackers, and a back pack stove. I plan to stay all day if neccessary or until my eyes give up. Tomorrow is my unmagnified day and I have no delusions about it.

Bad news: Snowed again last night. Good news: It's melting and 35 degrees at noon.

Better get back to my preparations.


Fast Frank
February 3, 2008, 03:34 PM
Good luck!

I too am not looking forward to the stark reality of shooting "John Wayne" style with open sights.

Hopefully, I can redeem myself from the bench...

About twenty years ago (OK,Thirty) I could hit small targets without support or optics.

Sadly, those days are gone.

I'll do the best I can and brag about it anyway!:D

Fast Frank
February 3, 2008, 08:57 PM
Here's a test target I just shot.

This is a whole box of Mini Mags, and it was fired at 200 yards.

Not bad, huh?:rolleyes:

February 3, 2008, 09:29 PM
Kind of a ragged hole,
but not bad for a whole box.
(Oh, wait: it's that heart that's ragged-edged.
Optical illusion.)

Best smile I've had all day. :D

Interesting tool, there. :scrutiny:
I'm guessing some kind of
new fangled wrench for lever guns ... :rolleyes:

February 3, 2008, 09:49 PM
Frank, you are now the front runner for the Cupid Award.

And I thought your 39A didn't like Mini-Mags all that much...

Fast Frank
February 3, 2008, 10:11 PM
Nope, mine doesn't like Mini Mags that much.

I shot that with the borrowed rifle.

Iron sights.

February 3, 2008, 10:40 PM
Fast Frank, I recommend you enter that one in the bonus match. :neener:

Just let me know if that was freestyle or John Wayne. :p:D

February 4, 2008, 05:31 AM
Iron sights.Which reminds me of a question.

How will trad iron sights measure up against ghost rings and peeps?

February 4, 2008, 06:43 AM
Did you use Remington Bulk to form the heart before you placed it on the
3x5? It looks a little too ragged for MiniMag. Great shootin, tho', especially with a 1" sight radius. :uhoh:
TaKe CaRe

February 4, 2008, 07:45 AM
I expect the unmagnified class will be dominated by the peeps (or the guys with office supplies :-) but I'll be shooting the factory sights this morning. From the one time I shot it without a scope I'm pretty sure I'm going to have to drift the sight just a smidge so I've got my brass drift in my gear bag.

Woke up at 3:30 and finally got up at 4:00. It's 32 degrees right now and I'm not in too much of a rush. Good shooting light will be after 7:30 or so. I'll probably be shooting by 8:00.

I've been looking forward to this all week. Luck to you Frank and anybody else shooting today.


Fast Frank
February 4, 2008, 08:55 AM
I'm packing up to go right now.

The weather looks promising.

Happy shooting!

Fast Frank
February 4, 2008, 03:15 PM
OK, it's done.

I had a GREAT time at the range.

I hung a piece of cardboard on the 25 yard rails and stapled the cards to the cardboard.

I used the target to the right of the cards to warm up, and then shot groups from the bench with both rifles.

After changing cards, I shot groups "John Wayne" from both rifles.

I shot 18 cards total, and picked the best of those.

I think I did all right, but I'm probably not going to win this one, either.

The big surprise probably isn't a big surprise to most of you.

The 1950 model with the iron sights shot better groups than the 2002 model with the 3-9 Leupold on it.

Cards on the way, Mo!

Fast Frank
February 4, 2008, 03:24 PM
Here's some that didn't make the cut.

For entertainment purposes only!

February 4, 2008, 05:00 PM
I'm done as well. The wheels didn't completely come off but it wasn't pretty. Somehow I packed a box of something that looked like Wildcats only to find out they were something else once I was out there.

Had on insulated underwear and wool pants, a fleece pullover under a down jacket. Was doing okay until the wind picked up. The snow was mostly gone and I set up on one of the cement benchs. Taped out 25 yards and set up a target stand. Adjusted the sights and settled in for a long day.

In the end the cold got to me. The wind finally had the range flag standing straight out and gusting. I quit a little after noon. From the looks of the cards that Frank culled I'm probably not in the running but I'm pretty happy with what I'll send in. Besides, there's no crying in the Heartbreaker Challenge.

My JW target was shot with Remington Target and my bench target was shot with Green Tags. Had a lot of fun with two minor problems. Had two FTE issues but I'm confident I know what caused it. Both occured with some Armscor stuff that came out of the box as one coagulated block. The wax seemed to have congealed in the cold. I think when I broke them up they were lopsided and lumpy with wax. Anyway, I got to figure out how to field strip the rifle.

That's it from up here. I'll mark these targets and pop them in the mail.


Fast Frank
February 4, 2008, 05:31 PM
Amazing, isn't it?

If you had asked me before all this started, I would have told you that I could most likely get three shots touching from the bench at 25 yards.

Yeah, RIGHT!

I failed to do that today!

February 4, 2008, 06:07 PM
Yeah, I hear that. Did you do anything with the bonus shoot? I just didn't have anything left to try it. It would have meant putting the scope back on and rezeroing so I let it go, although I had some targets that might have been contenders. <grin>


Fast Frank
February 4, 2008, 06:50 PM
No, no bonus points for me.

When I got to the point that I realized shooting more groups wasn't likely to get me any better groups that the ones I had, I started thinking about lunch...

And it was all over at that point!:D

February 4, 2008, 07:55 PM
I hope I get out in time to meet the dead line(college and stuf).

February 4, 2008, 07:55 PM
I mailed my card in today.

FFrank, your card on the right is pretty good for a non-contender. I sure hope that's magnified class.

Nem, I put a 0.07" aperture in my Skinner peep; it's fairly small for a Skinner and it helped with the sight picture. I'd rather be using that than the factory sights.

I'd probably rather use factory sights than a ghost ring. Dunno. My Mountie didn't have a rear sight on it when I bought it, so I didn't have anything to compare to the Skinner.

DJR, the last time I opened up my Marlin there were quite a few wax shavings from shooting lead bullets. PM me if you want me to email you an owner's manual with takedown instructions.

February 4, 2008, 08:05 PM
Hi All,
What a Friday we had for shooting. Went to Knights Trail, the outdoor county recreation run range for some shooting. It was barely tolerable. From the bench to 25yards the wind was blowing about 15knots and swirling 90 degress from the port beam to head on. Oh did I mention the temperature was 66 degrees but with the wind the RO said the wind chill was at least 60, and me in just a long sleeved shirt. Well with my eyes and tremor unfortunately we are limited to magnified and "rested", but ole Sweet Lips sure did her part. You have to of watched the 2 hour special about Hillbillies to understand giving the rifle that Hallowed name. It was really facinating and educational. Will get the cards out post haste. Suppose to be in the 80's tomorrow.

TaKe CaRe

February 4, 2008, 08:07 PM
turtlehitman: welcome aboard.

Slugless: I actually have a manual, just didn't have it with me. No problem, I had read it and have seen enough references to the procedure that there was no problem. Thanks for the offer anyway.


February 4, 2008, 08:51 PM
I have mailed out my targets let me know when they get there curious on how long it takes. Thanks Gus

Mal H
February 5, 2008, 02:30 PM
I just finished shooting the match and am mailing the targets off today. Weather today was a slight balmy breeze and 72 degrees! (Yes, it's February 5th not May 5th.)

There were a few surprises while shooting namely how difficult shooting the "Bonus" round actually was. Funny how when you try to nick the corner you can't. The other surprise for me was the "John Wayne" target. I had shot about 4 benched targets and had a few good ones. So I says to myself might as well shoot the offhand one and be done with it. Trust me, I was expecting to create an entry for the bonus round. To my extreme surprise the very first one was pretty darn good! I tried one more, but it was no where near as good so I quit while I was ahead.

Frankly, I attribute my good "luck" to the excellent balance of the 39. I've shot off hand, of course, many times, but I usually have a hard time gettin all shots in a good group. (However, I shouldn't forget that it was 25 yards, not 50 or 100.)

I didn't use anything special to shoot the benched portion of the match. I didn't feel like schlepping the sandbags and front end rest assembly out to the field so I used my old Uncle Bud's "Bulls Bag" only. It worked just fine as always even though the name conjures up some old James Herriot stories. ;)

Oh, and my wife is now missing a bunch of her return address labels that had little hearts on them. :)

February 6, 2008, 03:13 AM
Weather today was a slight balmy breeze and 72 degrees!
(Yes, it's February 5th not May 5th.)So noted. Balmy, indeed. The tropics move north. :scrutiny:

I wonder how accuracy is effected by air temperature.

Is bullet trajectory more ... predictable/repeatable in cold or warm air?

Educated guess: Cold air is denser.
More molecules to divert bullets.
Ergo, warm air favors better groups.

But would it really make a difference?
Any studies known?

Fast Frank
February 6, 2008, 08:56 AM
I think the cold has more effect on velocity than anything else, because of the way the powder burns.

AR 15s were known to have accuracy problems in arctic conditions, an ammo change solved it.

Are you shooting this one, Nemo?

We would REALLY like to see your name mentioned in the results!

February 6, 2008, 09:36 AM
Nem, or does the bullet get a better grip on the thicker air and travel straighter? ;) :neener:

Looks like we'll need another winter shoot to test the hypothesis. We could call it, Nem's lab coat challenge (lab coat optional). If we get a big enough sample we can speculate if bullets prefer zipping through more or less molecules on their way toward a 3x5 cards. :D Yet another good excuse to go shootin'

February 6, 2008, 02:17 PM
Slugless' Non-Magnified John Wayne target arrived in todays mail. Yet another impressive target and this time done with a 50's vintage Mountie. I'll try to maintain the suspense until all the results are in, it looks like it could be the one to beat.

Other notes:
-So far all entries have come from either Washington or Texas.
-Shooting 3x5's is fun. Shootin' 3x5 with other 39 shooters is even more fun.
-I'm already looking forward to the next one.

February 6, 2008, 04:00 PM
Are you shooting this one, Nemo?I had planned to, Frank. I have only one day "off" between now and the next Thursday (deadline) - next Sunday, when I have no "regularly scheduled" work things - but a film project is breathing down my throat, so ... it's unclear.

I keep thinking I'm almost out of the woods (or almost to a point where I can get to the woods) but work seems to have a way of multiplying to fill the available time.

February 6, 2008, 04:10 PM
Cool. I have a model 39A that was my dads. I will have to try this soon.

Fast Frank
February 6, 2008, 07:41 PM
I will have to try this soon.

Better make it real soon, Valentine's day is the 14th!

You still have this weekend to shoot, and enough time to mail after that.

February 6, 2008, 09:11 PM
Slugless' Non-Magnified John Wayne target...looks like it could be the one to beat.


Fast Frank
February 6, 2008, 09:44 PM
Go Slugless! (Hey, I gotta beat somebody, and it looks like you're nominated!):D

February 6, 2008, 10:19 PM
I might as well enjoy it while I can!

I know there are guys in this club who shoot better than I do.

FFrank, your card on the right is pretty good for a non-contender. I sure hope that's magnified class.

I suspect DJR is the great grandson of Annie Oakley

I figure I'll get beat but at least not humiliated.

I promise not to b*tch about the Mountie anymore. Its lightweight allowed me to hold the rifle in position longer waiting for the sight picture to line up. I figure someone with a Mountie sporting a Marble tang target aperture will have a superior configuration.

This good news brightened a bad day! :cool:

Fast Frank
February 7, 2008, 02:02 AM
Hey, I was pulling your leg there, Slugless! No humiliation intended.

Congratulations on having the best groups!

I'm probably going to lose this one like I did the last one.

Fast Frank
February 7, 2008, 02:46 AM
So, I'm sitting here in front of the computer... Sipping on a tasty beverage... and surfing the board, right?

And it occurred to me that the 3X5 card just happens to be the exact same size as the most popular .22 target of all time.

Notice how a group that's 1 3/4" tall, that would score about 525 in our contest and measures out at seven MOA, would all be good hits on a Coke Can.

When I walked up and saw that group on that card, I was disappointed. (That group was "John Wayne" from the scoped rifle) The Duke, shooting at squirrels, would have called it dinner.

Kinda puts it in perspective, doesn't it?

I'm thinking that the 3X5 card is probably the PERFECT target for these contests.

February 7, 2008, 03:56 AM
MOCC: minute of coke can.

February 7, 2008, 08:24 AM
I like the 3x5 targets as well. No need to special order them, easy to mail, ubiquitous, no license needed to hunt them ... Jag introduced me (us) to one of the most neglected game creatures out there and made it into a great sport!

February 7, 2008, 08:27 AM
no license needed to hunt them ...

Maybe in your locale.

I might not get into this one, my only window of opportunity is tomorrow, but it might get stolen from me.

February 7, 2008, 08:35 AM
Sistema1927: No need to worry, we will be doing more of these matches.

Speaking of which, we should start hammering out the details of the next shoot. Is a month long enough to do a match?

February 7, 2008, 10:35 AM
Shoot, Frank (pun intended) I know what you meant - the humiliation I was talking about was that I shot so badly in the first match I didn't even turn in a card! When I shoot a bunch I'm a pretty decent shot but for the first match...I was shooting cold and the Mountie takes a special technique.

You know, like in Kung Fu movies:

"Now I show you Mountie technique!"

Okay, the technique isn't that special but it did take some getting used to.

W.r.t the beer cans, I've been wanting a 50 yard beercan match. Spray an index card with silver paint, shoot standing (not offhand!) and bench.

I like the quick turnaround on this match but think 6 weeks is preferable to a month. I wouldn't turn down a month, though.

February 7, 2008, 02:36 PM
Fast Frank

Nice shootin gents!

Spoiler hint.
You all shot at least one target that put ya'll in medal contention.

February 7, 2008, 03:50 PM
Gus what vintage is your 39?

Fast Frank
February 7, 2008, 06:34 PM
You all shot at least one target that put ya'll in medal contention.

[Bevis voice] Dude, did we just score?[/Bevis voice]

Fast Frank
February 7, 2008, 07:10 PM
"Now I show you Mountie technique!"

Wow! When I read that, it had a cheesy Japanese accent!

How'd ya do that?:D

February 7, 2008, 07:13 PM
Am I the only one so far to take a sweetheart out shooting for the St. Valentine's Day post card match?

If so, do I get extra points? :D

February 7, 2008, 08:56 PM
Jag wrote: "Am I the only one so far to take a sweetheart out shooting for the St. Valentine's Day post card match?

If so, do I get extra points?"

So far you are the only one. We didn't know you were married to Annie Oakley though. Besides would you feel good about getting extra points for being beaten by a girl? :neener:


February 7, 2008, 09:50 PM
I'm taking my wife out.

Fast Frank
February 7, 2008, 10:06 PM
Check it out...

February 8, 2008, 07:32 AM
My 39 is a late 1990's Golden 39AS it has been good to me as I have won several cowboy side matches with it. Gus

February 8, 2008, 08:36 AM
So far you are the only one. We didn't know you were married to Annie Oakley though. Besides would you feel good about getting extra points for being beaten by a girl? :neener:

Maybe if I had some extra points, I wouldn't be beaten by a girl... :o

Annie Oakley huh? Women just seem to be inherently better shots then men IMHO, she has only been to the range with me twice before to shoot the Marlin, and the last time we were shooting clay birds at 50 yards and she beat me soundly in that.

When we were first married I bought her a Rossi .357 because the only place we could afford to live was in a less than desirable location. We went to the range and I ran a cylinder through at some bowling pins about 20 yards away and hit maybe two. I hand her the gun and she loads it, holds it out one handed standing, full magnum loads, and POW! POW! POW! POW! POW! POW! knocks down six pins and nonchalantly hands the gun back to me. :what::what:

We were young and in love, and that made me love her even more. :o

February 8, 2008, 04:17 PM
Hi guys,

Well, I was in a rush to get those index cards shot. I rushed from the airport to home, and then to the range. I got all the gear set up and then made the cards ups.

I used standard 3x5 index cards, with a 1.0 in orange dot and a hand-drawn Sharpie heart. I fired a few and got a couple of good cards. From a bench, all three are touching. From the Shaky Jakey they are all in the dot. I thought, nice going....

I drive home with a huge smile. Maybe I can successfully defend the championship.... When I'm home, I look at the card and the dot looks big. Sure as hell as I drop a quarter on it, I see a ring of orange. It turns out that a quarter is 0.95 in, not 1.0 iin diameter.

Even though the hand drawn heart is ok, my sticker is too big and I consequently DQ myself. There's no time to reshoot.

I still had a ton of fun and am still mailing the scores in just for grins. Mo, tell me where I would have ended up, but don't count me in the finish.

Now for the range report.

The weather was bright and cool at 50 deg F. The rests were Caldwell Rock up front, and Caldwell bags in the rear. The ammo was CCI MiniMag and the scope is a Leupold 4X RF. My 39 is a newbie, made in 2006.

I put four cards up on the target and load 12 rounds. The first string is terrible. The second worse yet. Then the last two come around and tighten up. "Hope springs eternal" my mind says. The next four are great cards. My bench submission comes from this. Then go up another for for the Shaky Jakey end. The first card has three holes in the 1.0 circle. 'Nuff Said, and I pack to come home.

This was a ton of fun, boys. I have ideas for the March Shoot, a St. Patrick's Day Classic....

February 8, 2008, 09:17 PM
John, Send em in. I'm sure we'd rather have you in than out... even if your target might not be to spec.

Mal, got your targets. Nice job.

Eight shooters so far. 5 different leaders. No Magnified bonus entries yet.

Mal H
February 8, 2008, 10:18 PM
John, one word for you - nonsense!

I am not speaking for Mo; this is his match and he is the sole judge. However, I don't think 5 hundredths of an inch in the target size could affect your shooting skill. If there was any advantage to a larger target, then certainly a DQ would be in order, but, if anything, a larger target is a disadvantage to sighting accuracy.

February 9, 2008, 04:18 AM
I'm siding with Mo and Mal, John.

February 9, 2008, 11:55 AM
I'm siding with Mo, Mal and Nem, John.

February 9, 2008, 01:18 PM
Hi all,

The cards got mailed off today from Northern VA. Mo, you should have them. You[re the judge. I certainly appreciate the vote of confidence. I'll pay closer attention next time!

With that said, it was a blast shooting. I can't wait for the next one.


February 9, 2008, 08:25 PM
Watching this now from El Paso. Took me two days to get here and spent some time in SLC (on Delta's nickle) then on to Dallas for a few hours before catching an AA jet to ELP. What started out as a short afternoon/evening thing ended up as a 48 hour odyssey. Anyway....

Shooting conditions here today are just about perfect but my rifle is back in Washington. :( I'm thinking these Texas shooters should be handicapped somehow, maybe something to do with mirrors. ;)

To even the playing field we might ought to hold a shoot (not the next one, I can't wait that long) in late July or August. :fire::fire::fire: :neener:

I sure don't have any problems with Johnmcl's targets, if his score wins then he deserves the win as far as I'm concerned.


February 9, 2008, 10:19 PM
It's official, Johnmcl's targets are hereby entered into the match and will be given full credit without prejudice.

Fast Frank
February 10, 2008, 02:21 AM
For anybody that hasn't voted yet... BUMP!

Fast Frank
February 10, 2008, 03:19 AM
DJR, Thank you for volunteering to run the "Heat Of The Night" match this summer.

I will take my sweat towel with me when I go to the range, and give it my very best shot!:D

Fast Frank
February 10, 2008, 03:35 AM
John, I don't care what size your aim points are.

This isn't NASCAR, and we aren't paying to protest over silly technicalities.

Glad you got to shoot with us!

February 10, 2008, 05:52 AM
Thank you for volunteering to run the "Heat Of The Night" match this summer.

I was thinking more along the lines of "High Noon."

It's going to be very interesting to see how this match shakes out. One thing I'm watching is how the rebounders do. Also the apertures vs. open. Lots to be learned here.


February 10, 2008, 06:29 AM
I am abstainin'. I saw through this ploy from the begining. Oh dear, my bullseye is .05" larger than what it is suppose to be. I will just have to throw myself at the mercy of the hordes, and with these wonderful targets too. :o ;):D You can't fool me John I get buffaloed every day by kindergarteners and their pros, so there. :neener:
You should at least go on yellow light and no treasure box this week.
TaKe CaRe

February 10, 2008, 08:54 PM
Hi all.
I was at the range, sun shining and no wind, good day right? NOT!:scrutiny:
Five practice shots to check the remounted scope and got almost
100% FTF's. Took it down today and I find I have a broken
firing pin. Bummer! :cuss::fire: Ordering a new one for the mountie tomorrow and am going to order a spare along some other parts just to have in case.

Guess you will have to put someone elses name on the winners
certificate. :banghead::D:)

Good luck to all. I'll win the next one.:neener::o


Fast Frank
February 10, 2008, 09:25 PM
Sorry to hear that.

What was going on the last time that rifle was handled?

Can you post a pic of the broken pin?

Fast Frank
February 10, 2008, 11:36 PM
Just in case you haven't voted yet...

Fast Frank
February 11, 2008, 01:27 PM
Well, today is Monday the eleventh...

If you have not massacred any 3x5 cards yet, you had better do it right now.

Tomorrow is the last day to get them in the mail!

February 11, 2008, 05:40 PM
JohnMCL's targets are in. Are they good enough to defend his magnified class title? We shall see. There has been some mighty fine shootin' sent in.

February 11, 2008, 05:58 PM
sorry guys.

looks like it isn't going to work out for me.

good luck

February 11, 2008, 08:40 PM
Are they good enough...?

JustsayMo -Master of suspense. ;)


February 12, 2008, 01:02 AM
How is this for suspense?

John and DJR are thirteen THOUSANDTHS appart in the Magnified John Wayne Class... The underdog Fast Frank has and entry in the catagory too and has predicted victory. :p Of course we haven't heard if Mrs. Jag is going to enter any Magnified targets or not... :p:D

I will add that there are multiple classes that the top three are going to require second party measurement to insure the results are valid.

One of the upsides to Honchoing the match is knowing the current standings... :neener:

Jag did a good job of keeping us on the edge of our seats waiting for the results. I'm doing my best not to let too much out of the bag until the deadline is passed.

February 12, 2008, 03:57 AM
Th' suspense is killing me over here ...

February 12, 2008, 03:22 PM

On closer reading, Mo didn't say either you or I were in first place with the other 0.013 in. back. He could be telling us we're in 4th and 5th place respectively.....

Ain't this fun? It makes me want a second 39A so I can have one optimized for iron sights and one for a scope.

February 12, 2008, 05:32 PM
Yeah, I saw that right off but am I fourth or fifth??? :D:D:D

This really has been enjoyable. I'm already looking forward to the next one.


February 12, 2008, 05:39 PM
I'm already looking forward to the next one. Me, too.

I've had fun just watching the first two happen from the sidelines.
Can't wait to actually shoot in one (even though I may be competing for last place ... :D)

Fast Frank
February 12, 2008, 08:28 PM
Well, this one's about over.

Today is the 12th. If your cards were not mailed today they won't be in on time to be scored.

I tried quite a bit harder on this one than I did for the Thanksgiving match.

I shot better groups this time, too.

I can't say that the extra effort reduced the fun level any. If anything, the borrowed rifle doubled the fun.

I hope I score better than the last place finish I got last time.

If not... Well I guess I'll have to borrow TWO rifles next time.:D

Good luck guys!

February 13, 2008, 05:50 AM
Well, this one's about over.<Best Roy Rogers voice>

"Happy trails to you ..."

Today is the 12th. It's now 2:50 am on the 13th.

Do you know where your 39 is?

Wait: what's this I hear about
another match in March?

Target is a clover leaf?

February 13, 2008, 10:26 AM
Are there any more entries Inbound?

I believe I've gotten targets (or an excuse ;) ) from everyone that contacted me for an address. I'll recheck, but if you have one I haven't acknowledged yet let me know. If we're all in, I'll post the results first thing tomorrow.

February 13, 2008, 04:32 PM
Hi JustsayMo
I have two targets on the way from Florida mailed Monday. May not get there until Thur. From the sound of things they are not that great, probably bottom half. Fun trying anyway. Problem sure isn't ole "Sweet Lips" but "Sour Puss".:eek: Can't wait for the next one. Sure is a great gang.
TaKe CaRe

February 13, 2008, 04:33 PM
I will not be able to sleep tonight..... :)

February 13, 2008, 04:55 PM
John, I hope that's because "she" keeps you awake all night ... ;) :D

February 13, 2008, 06:23 PM
I will wait for Shaky's targets before posting. The more the better. I'll score and post tomorrow after work or first thing Friday. THANK you to all who participated and supported this very enjoyable shoot.

Fast Frank
February 13, 2008, 07:30 PM
No, thank you, MO.

I appreciate you putting on this shoot for us.

You can send all the trophies and prizes to:

Fast Frank

1616 I Want The Goodies Lane

Houston, Texas. OU812

I'm eagerly waiting for delivery.:neener:

February 13, 2008, 07:51 PM
<drum roll>

Fast Frank
February 13, 2008, 07:56 PM
I have two targets on the way from Florida.

I think Old Shakey Jake is sharking us!:D

February 13, 2008, 08:04 PM
Yeah, and he may not be the only one. :scrutiny:

All in all it's been a huge success with over 2000 views, six pages, ~150 posts and it's not over yet. Pretty cool. :cool:


February 13, 2008, 09:51 PM
I gotta get busy on a bullet trap so I can shoot at home.

February 14, 2008, 04:28 AM
So, while we wait for the results to come in,
let's talk about the next one.

Target is a clover leaf?I've been thinking about this a bit.

If the next target was a cloverleaf,
and the assignment was to put one bullet in the middle of each leaf,
then the next game would be less about "smallest" group
and more about "optimal" group.

That is, a single hole would score less than 3 equidistant holes,
each in the center of a leaf.

Too close is not good.
Too far apart is not good.
Center of 3 leaves is best.

Measurement would be more complex,
but we could figure out the algorithm.

And I predict that shooting three different targets
on the same card could be more challenging than shooting one,
and maybe even more realistic (first shot, squirrel moves, then stops;
second shot, squirrel jumps, then pauses; third shot, squirrel stew for dinner).

February 14, 2008, 06:28 AM
I like this idea a lot.

I recommend the target be a cloverleaf design of any size that will fit on a 3x5 index card. The shooter lightly indicates the center of each leaf with an 'x'. The idea is big bold lines for the cloverleaf and a small 'x' in the leaf center.

Three shots per target with one shot per leaf is the COF. The sum of the three distances from hole to leaf center is that card's score. Low score of all cards submitted wins. I suggest 'John Wayne' at 25 yds, mag and non-mag.


Mal H
February 14, 2008, 08:00 AM
"I suggest 'John Wayne' at 25 yds, mag and non-mag."

Are you kidding?!

February 14, 2008, 09:16 AM
Mal, when you see Johnmcl's targets and you'll know he's not kidding. :D:p

John, you (and a few others) know you're just going to shoot the 'little x' out of the leaf and make it hard to score anyway.. :D

February 14, 2008, 09:18 AM
The results will be posted ASAP. I'm taking the wife out so it'll be later tonight or early tomorrow morning.

February 14, 2008, 09:56 AM

You know, a match shooting a little closer in would be a ton of fun too. Say something like 10 or 15 yds?

On the shooting, believe me, it is nothing inherent in me. I had my DNA permanently altered by Gunnery Sgt Kowalski many years ago. That DNA imprint is around long after he decided to take over a half acre of hell. I think he was promoted to Master Sgt there... :)

February 14, 2008, 11:47 AM
At the range I go to the minimum distance for rifle shooting is 25 yards.

For a cloverleaf shoot, I'd rather standing position instead of "John Wayne;" w/ JW style it was easier for me to shoot for a consistent sight picture rather than "COM" of a little heart.

How about a "Lucky Charms" shoot? Or a leprechaun-shaped steel silhouette? :D

I'm waiting with bated breath for the results!

February 14, 2008, 04:30 PM
Three shots per target with one shot per leaf is the COF.
The sum of the three distances from hole to leaf center is that card's score.
Low score of all cards submitted wins.John,

When I first read that, I misunderstood it. On closer inspection, yeah, I think we're on the same page, er card, er leaf.

In fact, it seems (on first thought at least) a simple solution to the problem I was having scoring 3 shots on 3 different leaves.

I'm attaching an image that I photoshoped to illustrate the challenge. I was thinking "distance to leaf center" meant distance to center of the three leaflets (i.e., in the center of leaflets; see my image). {Note: there's a bit of botany confusion here; I think a leaf is all three subleaves, w/ each little part being a "leaflet", though I could be wrong.}

But if we can construct the cloverleaf with a uniform size and shape, then make the center of each leaflet the target, then a direct hit in the center of each leaflet would result in a score of 0 + 0 + 0 = 0, perfect score.

Perhaps three circles drawn using nickels (quarters?) that touch each other without overlapping?

February 14, 2008, 05:07 PM

Let's get out definitions straight. There are three leaves to a shamrock. I am proposing that we shoot three shots at a shamrock, one to each leaf.

I was thinking we'd score to the center of each leaf. Then we don't care what the actual size of shamrock is as its only the distance to the center of the leaf that counts. For example, a center shot in a 2 in circle is as good as a center shot in a 2.25 in circle.

Can you see this in the accompanying diagram? Thoughts?



February 14, 2008, 05:18 PM
So what about a using a barricade style rest for this shoot?

The idea would be to use a range bag our something similar for the gun's barrel, shooting off the bench. No rear rest is allowed. You have to 'peek' over the top of the barricade to shoot the targets.

This is like shooting over the sideboards of a covered wagon. Get the idea?


February 14, 2008, 05:28 PM
Let's get out definitions straight. There are three leaves to a shamrock. I am proposing that we shoot three shots at a shamrock, one to each leaf.I agree, John. Let's just call each of those three things a "leaf".

{Background for me that caused my initial confusion: I'm a biologist. Technically, each of those three things on clovers and shamrocks are not "leaves" but "leaflets" (, because they share a common stem. But - again - let's not concern ourselves with that distinction. It's moot here since this is a shooting match, not a botany lesson. :D}

I like your scoring algorithm. Seems simple enough IF the scorer can actually determine what dead center is. For example, in your bottom diagram, technically the top shot (A) is not dead center since part of the X is exposed.

When we're using a single "spot", we can calculate the distance between the center of each hole, and sum those distances for a score. Obviously for three shots, a single hole would produce lowest score.

Here, we'd be using three different "spots" as target, so the scoring gets a bit trickier.

Does that make sense?

Thoughts anyone?

Gee, this is fun. Even creating the match is fun, even if shooting it is more so. :D


February 14, 2008, 05:45 PM
Well, let's think about simplifying life here.

How about we shoot at a green circle of any size that fits on a 3x5 index card with the center marked with an 'x'. Fire three times, and the minimum total distance to the center wins?

What about five shots? I'm still up for the barricade rest off the bench.

February 14, 2008, 05:50 PM
I agree with:

* John's scoring system (sum of distance to center)
* Barricade rest (perfect for my range!)
* Nem's biology lesson

Personally I don't care if we call them leafs, leaves, or leaflets as long as I can shoot them....

February 14, 2008, 07:18 PM
Personally I don't care if we call them leafs, leaves, or leaflets as long as I can shoot them....<laughs>

Yep. Agreed there.

I still like the idea of 3 different targets - like three different green circles or green leafs :D - rather than just one X.

For me, that adds an element of challenge - both in shooting and scoring - and breaks away from the same ol'.

Fast Frank
February 14, 2008, 08:03 PM
Well, speaking of the next match...

I just looked at the "Two Gun Match" poll.

It seems that 15 percent voted no because they don't have a pistol or don't want to shoot a two gun match.

That's enough for me. I can't see pushing 15 percent of the model 39 shooters out because some of us like to shoot pistols.

This IS the 39 club, after all!

In my mind, that's a dead issue.

I wonder if shooting a model 39 match that includes any other Marlin lever gun for extra points might get more votes?

Has anybody seen Mo lately? I think he has a trophy or something for me...

February 14, 2008, 08:06 PM

I think Mo is out with Ms. Mo tonight. Something about Valentine's Day. Either that or he's laughed himself into a coma on our scores. :)

Sorry to hear the two gun is dead. That would have been fun too. I have a single six to go with the 39.

February 14, 2008, 08:11 PM
I like 3 different targets. John's right, however, that 1 circle would be simpler. I'd take either but 3 targets is a good variation.

5 shots vs. 3 shots?

5 shots is tougher. I usually shoot 5 shot groups and there's always a flyer.

For those of us who are more proficient at shooting than I am that may not be a problem. But 3 shots are less likely to have a flyer and that adds an element of chance to the game.

In other words, even inconsistent shooters like me can deliver 3 good shots and that makes it more likely to score well.

5 shot groups will definitely show who are the best shooters among us. 5 shot groups would make me practice more.

February 14, 2008, 08:30 PM
FFrank, I'm not sure we should kill the 2 gun match just yet. I suggest we table it for now and shoot a couple different 39A matches, like a 50 yard standing beercan match.

We've talked about an open class match, i.e. any .22 lever rifle owner can compete, esp. His Divine Shadow who couldn't buy a 39A.

The 2 gun match would be good for open class. 15% of Marlin owners couldn't compete but Browning & Henry & Winchester owners could shoot. A problem might be too many entries!

Fast Frank
February 14, 2008, 08:37 PM
I wouldn't mind shooting against the Henrys and what not, but we sure don't want to relax the rules enough to allow "Super Mod" guns in.

They will clean our clocks!

Heck, even my model 60 (Totally unmodified) will shoot groups half the size of what my 39 does.

Fast Frank
February 14, 2008, 11:48 PM
OK the poll just ended.

18.29 percent voted against including pistols in a model 39 postal match.

Maybe we could shoot a simultaneous event with pistols, but I don't think we should include pistols as part of a model 39 match.

You know... "Here's the rules for the 39 shoot, and if you want you can shoot the same event with a pistol as another class."

I don't think we should make it so a guy with a 39 and a pistol can score higher than a guy with just a model 39.

Penalizing almost 20 percent of our club just isn't right.

Having a guy say "I shot the best Model 39 target in the whole event, but that dude with the model 39 and a Ruger pistol got a higher score!" just wouldn't do.

After all, it IS the MODEL 39 CLUB!

February 15, 2008, 12:28 AM
The High Road Marlin 39 Club 2008 Valentines Challenge

Unmagnified John Wayne Style
Shooter Model Sights Position Conditions Ammo Score Notes
1st Place Slugless Mountie Skinner JW 60* Sunny Fed Gold medal 1.007 1958
2nd Place- DJR 39AS Factory JW 30* wind 10-15 CCI Green Tag 1.226 2007
3rd Place- Angus LincolnAngus Lincoln 39A Factory JW 25* Sunny Remington Golden 1.397" New
4-MalH 39AS Williams JW Clear 72* Lapua multi-match 2.026" 1999
5-Fast Frank 39A Factory JW Overcast Mini Mag 2.209 1950
6-Mrs. Jaguar 39A Skinner JW 70* Windy Fed 36gr HP bulk 2.324" 2006
7-Gus3836 39AS Marble Tang JW 32* Fed Champion 2.47" Late 1990's
8-JustsayMo 39A Mountie Factory JW 37* Rain Fed 36gr HP bulk 2.790" 1965
9-Jaguar 39A Skinner JW 70* Windy Fed 36gr HP bulk 3.389" 2006

Unmagnified Freestyle
Shooter Model Sights Position Conditions Ammo Score Notes
1st - Fast Frank 39A Factory Bench Overcast Mini Mag .785" 1950
He predicted and delivered victory! Atta boy!

2nd MalH 39AS Williams Bench Clear 72* Lapua Multi-Match .865" 1999
3rd- Mrs. Jaguar 39A Skinner sit/bench 70* Windy Fed 36gr HP bulk 0.999 2006
4-Jaguar 39A Skinner sit/bench 70* Windy Fed 36gr HP bulk 1.009 2006
5-DJR 39AS Factory Bench 30* wind 10-15 CCI Green Tag 1.121 2007
6-Gus3836 39AS Marble Tang Bench 32* Fed Champion 1.53 late 1990's
7-JustsayMo 39A Mountie Stock Sitting 37* Rain Fed 36gr HP bulk 2.882" 1965

Magnified John Wayne Style
Shooter Model Sights Position Conditions Ammo Score Notes
1st -JohnMCL 39AS Leupold 4X RF JW 50* CCI Mini Mag 0.896 2006
2nd -DJR 39AS Burris 6-8 x 40mm JW calm 20* Remington HV HP .909" 2007 vintage
3rd Fast Frank 39AS Leupold 3-9X40 JW Overcasts Win Xpert 2.228" 2002

Magnified Freestyle
Shooter Model Sights Position Conditions Ammo Score Notes
1st-DJR 39AS Burris 6-8 x 40mm Bench calm 20* Winchester Wildcat hp .466" 2007 vintage
2nd-JohnMCL 39A Leupold 4x RF Bench 50* CCI Mini-Mag 0.59 2006
3rd Shaky Jake39A 2.5 Bushnell Bench Remington Bulk 0.932 1977
4-Fast Frank 39A Leupold 3-9X40 Bench Overcasts Win Xpert 1.077" 2002

Unmagnified BONUS John Wayne Style
Shooter Model Sights Position Conditions Ammo Score Notes
1st-Gus3836 39AS Marble Tang JW 32* Fed Champions 9.691" Late1990s
2nd -Jaguar 39A Skinner JW 70* Windy Fed 36gr HP bulk 5.776" 2006 vintage
3rd Mal H 39AS Williams JW 72 Clear Lapua multi-match 5.23" 1999

Unmagnified BONUS Free Style
Shooter Model Sights Position Conditions Ammo Score Notes
1st- Mal H 39AS Williams Benched 72* Clear Lapua Multi-Match 7.512" 1999
2nd-Gus3836 39AS Marble Tang Benched 32* Fed Champion 7.461 Late 1990s
3rd-Jaguar 39A Skinner Sit/bench 70 Windy Fed 36gr HP bulk 6.784" 2006 vintage

Magnified Bonus John Wayne
Shooter Model Sights Position Conditions Ammo Score Notes
1st-ShakyJake 39A 2.5 Bushnell JW Remington Bulk 9.355 1977

February 15, 2008, 12:58 AM
I'll float an idea for the March match using the "leaflet" idea. How about a match that let you shoot as many leaflets as you could fit on a 3x5 card. One shot per leaflet until you miss.

Example: Mo draws (or buys a sticker) so big that only one can fit on his card. He gets one shot, hits and his score is ONE.

JohnMcl, DJR, Slugless, Fast Frank, Mal H, Gus3836, and Shaky Jake are all champions and decided they need a bigger challenge so they draw 10, 20 or even more smaller leaflets on their 3x5 cards. They go out and shoot until they miss or plug holes in all of em. Their score equals the number of consecutive hits on leaflets.

So what it amounts too is if you can consistently hit a 1" circle with your 39 you could probably get 15 leaflets on a 3x5 card and the max score you could get would be 15. As soon as you missed or doubled up on another bull the shooting stops and target is scored by the number of bulls hit.

10, 25, 50 and 100 yard divisions.

February 15, 2008, 01:05 AM
Oh and I'm all for an "outlaw" class for other rimfire LEVERACTION rifles

February 15, 2008, 01:12 AM
I can't see pushing 15 percent of the model 39 shooters out because some of us like to shoot pistols.Frank, I can't/won't speak for others, but I would have no objection to a two-gun match that I couldn't participate in because I don't own a .22 pistol/revolver (yet).

I suspect most (all?) in the club would agree with that. (Sour grapes don't own 39s. :D)

I mean, I'd like to race a BMW, but I don't own one, but I'm not going to tell others they can't.

I think a two-gun 39/.22 handgun match is a great idea. I encourage its development. And someday, I'll get to play too.


Fast Frank
February 15, 2008, 01:14 AM
I'm shocked!

I was expecting a spanking like the one I got last time!

Now I have to:

1. Buy my buddy a beer for lending me a winner of a rifle.
2. Get something done with the parallax situation on mine.


Here's some interesting stuff:

Top five group sizes-

1. DJR with a .466 (1.86 MOA)
2.JohnMCL with a .590 (2.36 MOA)
3. Fast frank with a .785 (3.14 MOA)
4. Mal H with a .865 (3.46 MOA)
5. Shakey Jake with a .932 (3.72 MOA)

Newest gun in the match-
Angus Lincoln's rifle is listed as "New". Is it an '08? DJR's rifle is an '07.

Oldest gun in the match-
The borrowed 1950 "House Fire Rifle".

The winning rifles(in order of appearance):

Late '90s

Winning ammos (In order of appearance):

Federal Gold Match
Mini Mag (2 shooters)
Winchester Wildcat
Federal Champion
Lapua Multi Match
Remington Bulk

The winners sights (In order of appearance):

Factory Buckhorn
Leupold 4X rimfire
Burris 6-8X40
Marble Tang
Williams peep
Bushnell 2.5

Just looking at that, I'm thinking there's no clear advantage to the new rifles, or the old rifles.

Also, there's no clear choice of bullets.

I don't see a clear choice of sighting systems, either.

In fact, it looks like any model 39 properly setup with any sighting system and shooting a bullet it likes can be a winner!


Mal H
February 15, 2008, 01:33 AM

It is truly an honor to have won with a rifle using a bench rest and shooting the largest group of the bunch!

(Hey! Wait a second! Are they all laughing at me for winning that category?)


Fast Frank
February 15, 2008, 02:13 AM
I mean, I'd like to race a BMW, but I don't own one, but I'm not going to tell others they can't.

Yeah, but what if you did have a BMW, and you raced it with the BMW club, and crossed the finish line first, only to watch the third place guy get the trophy because he also owned a fast Honda motorcycle.

Would that seem fair to you?

Like you, I think it would be great fun to do a two gun shoot and I'm willing to take whatever spanking you guys can give me.

I just don't want to see anybody feel gypped or left out.

I'll go with the group on this- if you guys want to do a two gun shoot, put my name in the hat.

I'll be your Huckleberry!:D

February 15, 2008, 04:28 AM

Well done, Mo.

February 15, 2008, 04:31 AM
Yeah, but what if you did have a BMW, and you raced it with the BMW club, and crossed the finish line first, only to watch the third place guy get the trophy because he also owned a fast Honda motorcycle.

Would that seem fair to you? If it was set up as a 2-vehicle, BMW auto/Honda bike race, you bet.


February 15, 2008, 07:34 AM
Hey Mal H
Keep in mind, I won the magnified bonus round shooting JW trying for a small group not the largest!:neener: Besides it was by default, I was also the last. Next match sounds great, but as you can see I need that support. Thanks JustsayMo for a GREAT match. Remember K. I. S. S. for us old birds.
TaKe CaRe

February 15, 2008, 07:35 AM
Justsaymo thanks for running the match it was fun. Depending on when who ever gets the next on going I do not know if I will be able to participate I am heading to Detroit to do a shutdown starting 3-3 will not have time when that starts. But hope to do the one after that. I noticied I had the largest group don't know if that is something to be proud of or not but I did hit where I was aiming on that target. Gus

February 15, 2008, 08:16 AM
Actually, I think the BIGGEST group was equally as challenging. I ran out of time before I could get a 3x5 with three holes in it. Considering I finished at the bottom of the two classes I did enter maybe I should have entered them in the bonus match. :D :rolleyes:

You are all very welcome. I enjoyed it and I'd like to thank everyone for participating and/supporting this shoot.

Perhaps the pistol category could be a bonus or side match...

Lets hammer out the details and get rolling again. :D

February 15, 2008, 09:16 AM
Woo hoo, last place!!! Take that Frank! :neener:

Seems the best I could do as the Duke was not as good as the best I could do on a bench. But the worst I could do as the Duke was better (worse?) then the worst I could do on a bench.

Okay, Im confused now. :confused:

Congratulations to Slugless, he is truly King of the John Wayne style, shooting unmagnified offhand and getting a score of 1.007, I am very impressed. The bullets are .22 in diameter, he averaged .33 from center to center to center. Wow

Congratulations to Frank, seems his rescue 39A is a contender.

Congratulations to John McL, again standing shooting offhand and keeping the total distance under an inch, even with a scope that is impressive.

Congratulations to DJR, wow, your average distance from center to center is .155! That is some mighty fine shooting.

Congratulations to Gus3836, that is some excellent bad shooting, an oxymoron if I ever heard one! Your bonus card beat out all categories of bonus cards, and that was done John Wayne style. Very nice.

Congratulations to MalH for putting up another impressive, unimpressive card. You didnt even use a scope duct taped to your rifle this time.

Congratulations to ShakyJake, first and last all on one card, not easy my friend. Still, judging by the score, that is a good card.

This was great fun and I would like to add my thanks to Mo for hosting this. It takes someone to step up and do it for it to happen, and Mo stepped up. I appreciate your effort, even though Im sure you had fun too.

Fast Frank
February 15, 2008, 09:22 AM
I just realized that some of the data I posted is wrong.

You can't calculate MOA from a composite group size.


Please ignore those MOA numbers.

February 15, 2008, 10:42 AM
Well, well, well.


A big huzzah! to 'Mo for his work - that was quite a few classes to score.

Thank you to Jag for his kind words. My best groups were 4, 3, & 2 MOA and I would have been proud to turn any of them in.

The reason I posted that link to the Civil War sharpshooters is that those men could consistently turn in 2 MOA offhand. Wow! I get to practice hundreds of rounds with a light carbine with nice sights. Those guys would have learned on full size ~.50 cal rifles with primitive sights. And what kind of triggers did they have?

Credit goes to the Marlin Co. for making such a nice rifle, the previous owner for a smooth trigger, Dr. Skinner for his sights, and the Marlin 39 Club for a fun time.

The trigger is what did it. Frank, too bad we can't correlate on that.

I think DJ is the man to watch....

February 15, 2008, 11:02 AM
The Marlin Model 39 Club 2008 Valentines Day Challenge Target pictures.

Mal H
February 15, 2008, 11:26 AM
Actually, I think the BIGGEST group was equally as challenging.Very true. As I said in the post when I submitted my cards (#83), it seemed to be harder to miss than to hit the target.

Thanks again to Mo for a fun and well run match!

I would like to go on record in favor of a two-gun match. (Maybe it'll spur those without a .22 handgun to go get one. After all, no battery is complete without one. I love helping to spend other folks money! ;) )

Mo - the attachment isn't working. Usually it's a database problem. About the only way to fix it is to delete the attachment and try again.

February 15, 2008, 12:34 PM
L-R: Non Mag John Wayne, Non Mag Benched, Mag John Wayne, Mag Benched, Non Mag BONUS JW, Non Mag Bonus Bench, Mag Bonus JW

Each column = top is first, middle second place, bottom equals third

Mal H
February 15, 2008, 01:17 PM
Received the emailed photo and attached to the above post.

February 15, 2008, 03:43 PM
I sure wish I'd had the time :(to enter the Valentine's Day Classic, the Thanksgiving day Classic was such a blast. Maybe I will have time for the Green Beer Day Classic.

February 17, 2008, 10:31 PM
Just so we don't lose anyone, the next match is being discussed over here in the 39 clubhouse ( starting around post 1188.

February 18, 2008, 11:05 AM
Random thoughts on the match:

After being without a computer (don't ask :mad:) and finally getting a chance to look at the results last night I'll follow Fast Frank's example and post some things that occur to me. Nothing conclusive as the sample group is too small to support that.

1. Mounties are at no particular disadvantage.

2. There was no clear advantage for pre safety/rebounding hammer rifles, at least not enough for me to go looking for my dremel tool.

3. If JohnMCL comes up with an unscoped 39 the unmagnified shooters are going to have to scoot over a bit in the standings. ;)

And some things pertaining to me in particular:

1. The 2nd place finish in the unmagnified JW was more a product of three flyers ending up in close proximity than truly represenative of my shooting.

2. The 1st place finish in the magnified freestyle is probably a pretty good indicator of what the rifle will actually do as it took me out of the equation for the most part. I actually had three cards to choose from that were all pretty close to the one I turned in, one that was better. I chose the one I did because it centered the heart better than the others and I just liked the way it looked. :D

3. I'm probably going to have to set up another rifle with an aperture style sight if I'm going to shoot the unmagnified categories. I'm hoping to get the money together for a new scope and when that happens I'll not be wanting to go back and forth, taking it on and off.

4. To clear up a minor discrepency the scope I used was a Burris 6-18X40 and not a 6-8 which is what I probably wrote on the cards. Shot it at 6x.

Looking forward to the next match but may wait until after it's over to mention it to Gafiredawg over on RimfireCentral.


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