.410 derringer ballistics


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tiberius
July 29, 2003, 05:14 PM
These American Derringer and Bond Arms creations are certainly intriguing and I know there are several owned by members here. My question is. does anyone have any information regarding the ballistics of these rounds? I know that the slugs are VERY anemic (<100 gr and <1000fps), but some folks seem to feel that various sizes of shot would be very effective at close range. I'd like to think that are effective, but am somewhat skeptical.

Does anyone have any data, and failing that ... anecdotal evidence?



Hmmm, These two companies are within an hour drive of my house (Waco & Granbury) maybe I should take a road trip and see what they have to say.:D

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No Quarter
July 29, 2003, 05:42 PM
Tiberius,

I own a Bond Arms in .45/.410 and live in DFW as well. I will be happy to let you shoot mine if you'd like to try one out. I do not have a chrony, but if you look in this forum for a post titled "Mousecannon" you will find some good discussion about these guns.

I have complete confidence that my gun will put a thump on a BG.

NQ

tiberius
July 29, 2003, 06:30 PM
No Quarter,

It was your post in this current thread http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=32650 that got me thinking about this. Just so you know, I definitely like these guns and think they rate very high on the “fun factor” I am only questioning how effective they really are as personal defense weapons. I have scoured the web and other fora, but have not found any info that I could really trust.

Winchester lists their .410 000 buckshot at 1300 fps at 3 feet, but this is from a 28” barrel no doubt and the velocity from a 3 or 3.5 inch barrel must be dramatically lower. Like I said in my initial post, the slugs are reported in the same class as .380 ACP, but Winchester does show their 1/5oz (87.5gr) slug at 1850 fps at 3 feet.

I read your Mousecannon post, but it focused on .45 colt primarily of course.

I have no confidence in slugs or birdshot in this little hand cannon, but I think that buck shot may be interesting at the 10’ range and would like more info.

If you know a good place that we can shoot at stuff other than paper, I would definitely be up for a little testing. I would like to talk myself into a Bond Arms 3.5 inch model, that’s for sure.

Mike Irwin
July 30, 2003, 01:15 AM
Shot has even less penetration than the slugs.

I can't see it being much more, if any, effective than a slug.

Also, I think there is a HUGE safety factor involved with shooting shot in these short barreled guns.

The shot doesn't achieve any great velocity, and is unlikely to penetrate wood or another similar hard surface.

It will come flying right back in your face.

I've had it happen with a Thunder 5.

clubsoda22
July 30, 2003, 01:54 AM
i know a guy who carries a .410/45 derringer. The first shot is birdshot, and if that doesn't discourage you, the second shot is .45 colt hollowpoint. Call him a humanitarian i guess. Don't use .410 slugs in a derrenger, they're simply not as powerful as the .45 colt. If you're using .410 in the derrenger make it birdshot or buckshot.

My personal favorite 410/45 combo
http://www.thunder5.com/T5d.jpg

coldshot03/04
July 30, 2003, 02:03 AM
I had a FMJ Cobray 45LC/410ga double barrel sidexside derringer. That darn thing had a kick like you wouldnt believe.:eek: I used it to carry around on fishing trips for snakes (birdshot) It wasnt very good for anything else.:(

clubsoda22
July 30, 2003, 02:09 AM
i think that's the point tiberius, these 45/410 are great survival guns, but not much else. definately think the thunder 5 take's the cake for a hiking gun. .410 buckshot and .45 colt for defence against the human element and larger game, 410 birdshot for small game and snakes, .410 flares for safety.

No Quarter
July 30, 2003, 08:45 AM
The .410 000 buck I've shot buries itself pretty deep into wooden fenceposts. It will go right through water jugs and blow soda pop cans up really well. I am sure the the velocity might not be zipping along at over 1000fps, but I would venture to say that they are traveling along just as well as a .38 out of a snubby and that seems to be a pretty well thought of round. The fact that three of these projectiles will be hitting your target at the same time only adds to the equation in a positive way. So - 2 shots of 000 buck hiting your ttaget equals 6 holes in the bg.

i have shot #9 shells out of mine and they completely pepper a soda popcan and pass right through it. I have NEVER had any shot bounce back at me when shooting this stuff.

I would also venture to say that if you were to ever use this gun at fighting distance (3 yards) not only would the rounds put a good hurt on someone, but the muzzle gasses and blast ould barbecue 'em, pretty damn good too.

This is all subjective information sice I have not had to shoot anyone yet. I have shot and owned bunches of other firearms and mouseguns. Out of all the guns I have owned and shot, this one throws the biggest bullet and has the best observable results on my usual "fun" targets.

Mike Irwin
July 30, 2003, 10:42 AM
"i have shot #9 shells out of mine and they completely pepper a soda popcan and pass right through it. I have NEVER had any shot bounce back at me when shooting this stuff."

Then you've not shot it at anything very dense/hard, such as a wood door.

I'd suggest that you don't, either.

No Quarter
July 30, 2003, 12:54 PM
I would absolutely never shoot #9 shot at anything like hard wood even out of a long gun! You never know at what range the shot will be going slow enough to bounce right back and give you a little "incentive" to not ever try it again :)

clubsoda22
July 30, 2003, 01:51 PM
yeah, you'd end up sandblasted.

abaddon
July 31, 2003, 12:12 AM
If you guys ever meet up to test it out please post the results. I'd be very interested to see what type of penetration you get out of it.

Jeff

Psalm 144:1
October 31, 2009, 11:22 AM
Has anyone looked at the ballistics of the new Federal "Premium Personal Defense Handgun" rounds? Federal states the 000 contains four pellets that penetrate to a depth of up to 15″ in bare gelatin. The #4 pellets (approximately 10) penetrate to a depth of up to 6″ Can anyone verify performance from the Bond Arms? Thanks.

kjeff50cal
October 31, 2009, 01:19 PM
This must be the day of resurrected posts....

Jack2427
October 31, 2009, 08:27 PM
Birdshot is for the birds, literally, if you want the gun for defense, use slugs or buckshot or better yet the 45 Colt, even a cowboy round will be a good stopper at any range you are likely to hit with from a derringer.

Psalm 144:1
November 8, 2009, 11:35 PM
Yes, birdshot is appropriate for birds or snakes or having fun with clay pigeons. That's why I was asking about the Federal .410 handgun ammo in OOO buck that claims to exceed the performance of all the rounds mentioned above. There are enough mouse gun advocates out there that 4 proximate holes at once with 15" of penetration might make the round viable - especially with a .45 colt backing it up. Considering this as a BUG for my 10mm in lieu of the 357 barrels I have now. Perhaps I've chosen the wrong forum to ask the question...

John Wayne
November 9, 2009, 12:07 AM
.410 derringers have their place, for when you need to shoot snakes and don't want to carry a shotgun. The buck and slug loads might be adequate for shooting a racoon or possum in tight quarters, like under a house or something. Otherwise, they have poor terminal ballistics in comparison to their weight and recoil.

Not saying firing a .45 colt is anemic, but a .38 revolver is of comparable size and weight, and gives you five to six shots with the option of double action.

Shadan7
November 9, 2009, 09:33 AM
We did include a number of Bond derringers during our "real world gun (http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/realworld.html)" tests. The .410/.45LC I own gave readings on the low end (700 - 800 fps) for the .45 Colt rounds, which I would expect. I still wouldn't want to be shot with the thing.

.410 loads? I have 5 pellet 000 Buck in mine, which serves as a back-up home defense gun. No, not as impressive in terms of penetration as the .45 Colt bullet, but still enough to serve its purpose at the 10-12 feet range where it would be used. :eek:

Jim D.

Psalm 144:1
November 9, 2009, 04:58 PM
Shadan7, Thanks for a response to the question. I was pleased with the actual data on your site as opposed to opinion. (I've added to my favorites) I appreciated the different loads and barrel lengths as well as the use of “real world” guns. I guess I'll have to by my own chronograph soon. Different loads have different velocities and penetration so it is good to have a broad sampling. Sharing a similar curiosity as you list on your site and a bit of apprehension about the factory numbers, I was hoping someone had confirmed them. I noted 100-150 fps variance between some of the test barrels and "real-world guns" on the 45 colt alone and I often note similar variances between manufacturers claims and real world results. Was the federal “Premium handgun” ammunition actually fired out of a Judge to get the 1200 fps they claim, or was that number generated from a 20” shotgun barrel? The difference is significant enough from the other rounds on the market to make a difference. I can extrapolate the performance in my Bond Arms. They claim to be using a faster burning powder to preclude the fireball and rather transfer the energy to the shot while it’s still in the barrel. Makes sense in theory. If valid, perhaps Federal should do the same with the 45 Colt? If you are using the 410 as your back up home defense gun you might want to run these through the chronograph. Now if I can just get some data on penetration for THIS ROUND http://www.federalpremium.com/products/details/shotshell.aspx?id=847 with OOO buck as opposed to the Box O Truth versions of cut down shells and comments on bird shot…

nonseven
November 9, 2009, 05:01 PM
I've got a Bond Derringer. I tried the new .410 Federal Handgun defense round with 000 buckshot, through my chronometer. I got 590 fps.

At that point I gave up on the mild temptation I had to carry it as a defensive load.

On the other hand, throwing a clay pigeon over your head and shooting it with birdshot with the Bond is great fun.

My class 3 dealer has an H&R single shot .410 with a built-in suppressor, which I'm dying to get.

Shadan7
November 9, 2009, 05:47 PM
Yeah, the .410 loads are not my preferred SD - it is for one specific purpose: to allow my wife to have a last-ditch weapon she can handle one-handed and still be reasonably sure of hitting an attacker at across-the-room distance with at least one of the pellets. But trust me when I say that this situation would come about only after a number of other options have been exercised that I have much more trust in. ;)

I think it'd be good if we can get BrassFetcher (http://www.brassfetcher.com/) to test these rounds out of a handgun. I'll talk with him about it.

Jim D.

Psalm 144:1
November 10, 2009, 09:46 AM
Nonseven,
Thanks - THAT was the input I was looking for. Do appreciate. Advertized at 1200 fps, actual 590 fps. That's pathetic. Can we say they were 1/2 right? Maybe it was 1200 fps if I add both barrels together. ;-) The reviews I had heard implied some sketchy replies from the Federal spokesman on the topic - including the implication of #4 buckshot versus 4 birdshot. Guess that answers the .410 defense load question, although the 45 Colt is quite formidable. (Downside is that Bond recommends standard pressure 45 loads in the gun) Perhaps Federal meant 1.5 inches of penetration instead of 15 as well... I guess I'll stick with either the .357 barrel or the 45ACP for the thin pocket BUG, but admit to wanting to try the .410 for fun. Sounds like it could be a blast at the range...

nonseven
November 10, 2009, 10:52 AM
To be fair, the Taurus revolvers for which this load must be intended, have longer barrels than the Bond. However, I still doubt they would do anywhere near 1100 fps. Yeah, I'd stick with the .357 or the .45 and have two good chances rather than 4, 90 gr balls at an anemic velocity.

But the Bond is a blast to shoot - a little gun with a big bang.

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