Too much for home defense?


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dsffsll
January 21, 2008, 03:44 PM
Hello

Would these rounds be too much for home defense against people trying to break into my house?

http://www.midwayusa.com/mediasvr.dll/highresimage?saleitemid=660911

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High Planes Drifter
January 21, 2008, 04:02 PM
I dont know about that; 45-70 has a reputation for penetration. Check out Old Painless' "Box O' Truth" and check out what .45-70 is capable of:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot4_2.htm

I know the bullet in that test is a hardcast, but I wonder if a hollowpoint load would be a whole lot safer in terms of over penetration.

El Tejon
January 21, 2008, 04:08 PM
What kind of house do you live in and where is it?:confused:

Castle in the desert? May be O.K.

A brownstone in a large urban area? No.

Remember the Four Rules (especially #4).

Javelin
January 21, 2008, 04:10 PM
Is this a funny "haha" thread or are you seriously contemplating a .45-70 as HD?

If you live in the woods I would say no. But if you look out your door and see a neighbors porch light then yes.

Diggers
January 21, 2008, 04:13 PM
It would be fine if Bison are trying to break in! :) :rolleyes: :scrutiny:

People often tend to protect their home with a .38 special.......so a 45/70 @ 2405 foot/lbs of energy seems a bit excessive.

takhtakaal
January 21, 2008, 04:34 PM
It would be fine if Bison are trying to break in!

Hey, with as many players who are on all sorts of suspension these days, you never know.

http://xd5.xanga.com/b97a6a614243571956048/b48425375.bmp

GO NDSU!

Bartholomew Roberts
January 21, 2008, 05:00 PM
I haven't seen the penetration for 300gr Corbon DPX; but I am thinking that a 300gr all copper hollowpoint travelling at rifle velocities is going to exit anything you shoot and continue to penetrate several interior (and possibly exterior walls) with enough force to be lethal to someone else.

benEzra
January 21, 2008, 05:50 PM
I think you'd be much better served with some .223 JHP's out of a lightweight carbine, unless your potential home invaders have 4 legs and/or weigh 1000 lbs.

A .45-70 is less handy than a .223, slower for followup shots, has a comparatively minuscule magazine capacity, and will shoot through your home's exterior wall, your neighbor's exterior wall, and potentially your neighbor.

mgregg85
January 21, 2008, 07:07 PM
I guess at least is a 300 gr DPX bullet and not a 500 grain hardcast bullet. Buffalo bore also loads the 45-70 with gold dots.

Bazooka Joe71
January 21, 2008, 07:16 PM
Would these rounds be too much for home defense against people trying to break into my house?


HECK YEAH, absolutely....If your defending your home against this guy:

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h200/benrulez71/SumoWrestler.jpg

Otherwise, 45-70 may be a little too much gun.:p

Cosmoline
January 21, 2008, 07:42 PM
In spite of the silly responses, it's not a bad idea. An expanding .45-70 is a far cry from a b-bore penetrator and will work well as a man stopper. 300 grain is actually pretty light for that cartridge and has a comparatively low sectional density.

I'd use it to save myself. That said, you'd be better off with a nice lead SP or standard HP rather than a DPX penetrator. Soft lead HP would be perfect, but I don't know if anyone makes one.

browningguy
January 21, 2008, 07:46 PM
I shoot a 45-70 and personally think the DPX would give too much penetration, they are a hunting round. Personally I owuld go with a 300-350 gr, hollow point, still plenty of knowckdown and probably not as much penetration. I keep a magazine of 325 gr. HP's for my AR in 50 Beowulf (very similar ballistics to a 45-70) just in case one of those Sumo wrestlers tries to get in.

Diggers
January 22, 2008, 02:50 AM
Hey, I've become curious........why do you want to use such a powerful hunting rifle cal. for HD?

I mean it has 3 times the energy of a .44 magnum, :confused: It is going to pass though a person an keep on going with out a doubt, no matter what load you use.

Just for an interesting comparison, here is a what a Colt .45 -255 grain SWC at 900 fps can do. It has only about 460 ft/lbs of energy.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot28_2.htm

chris in va
January 22, 2008, 04:20 AM
If it's all you have, not much more to be said really except maybe look for something less penetrating?

takhtakaal
January 22, 2008, 04:25 AM
If every problem you have looks like a buffalo, quite naturally, every solution would seem to be in .45-70.

dodge
January 22, 2008, 09:07 AM
Just think you might not have to shoot. When the BG sees the end of the barrel I think he would have second or third thoughts about doing his deed.

Cosmoline
January 22, 2008, 12:21 PM
It is going to pass though a person an keep on going with out a doubt, no matter what load you use.

Two holes are better than one. That's why you want hunting bullets to go through. So long as the round has fully expanded and lost its stability the potential for mass mahem afterwards is minimal. The first order of business is to stop the attack, and if the bullet will stop a hog it will stop a man just as well.

TexasRifleman
January 22, 2008, 01:06 PM
So long as the round has fully expanded and lost its stability the potential for mass mahem afterwards is minimal.

Problem with the .45-70 is that probably doesn't happen until the 5th or 6th person it passes through.....

MCgunner
January 22, 2008, 01:07 PM
Why, I don't know why it'd be too much. I keep a .460 Weatherby handy, myself. :rolleyes:

It's the Dirty Harry thing. History channel needs to quit showing that movie over and over.

TexasRifleman
January 22, 2008, 01:09 PM
MCGunner, you need to get one of these.....

I keep one aimed at the back door, you just never know.

http://www.obscure-reference.com/guns/lahti20mm/Left_Side_thumb.jpg

(20mm Lahti, no I don't own one)

Cosmoline
January 22, 2008, 01:15 PM
So where are you guys that five girl scouts are lining up right behind the intruder? You're way too worried about overpenetration.

El Tejon
January 22, 2008, 01:19 PM
My neighbors disagree with you, Cos.:D

Depends on where you live. I live in a residential neighborhood close to downtown. A .45-70 will get my neighbors even the ones in the brick homes.:uhoh:

Cosmoline
January 22, 2008, 01:21 PM
Well what's worse--a single rifle round that blows him in half and sends a mangled bullet bouncing around down range or a dozen handgun rounds most of which clean miss and blast into the neighbor's house fulling intact and operational?

Bazooka Joe71
January 22, 2008, 01:26 PM
I keep one aimed at the back door, you just never know.

LOL, that's good stuff.:p



You can never be too prepared can you?:eek:

Diggers
January 22, 2008, 01:49 PM
Cos, you have a point. AND I really do believe that OP is over stated, its probably the bullets that miss are the real threat. But then again anyone can miss with anything.

Matt-J2
January 22, 2008, 01:58 PM
I'm in an apartment. Set off a .45-70, and hit or miss, I'm going to put holes in my neighbor's homes, if not my neighbors.

Granted, lots of rounds are going to do that, but that doesn't mean I can't do better than .45-70.


And why would I be firing a dozen handgun rounds, but only one .45-70?

Macpherson
January 22, 2008, 01:59 PM
If your home is a medieval castle with stone walls, AND if your most likely home invader is a buffalo, moose or rhino, then yes. Otherwise I would go with a smaller caliber. Some might say theres no such thing as too much gun, but there are good reasons for using a smaller but equally effective round. Overpenetration issues aside, most 45-70 rifles are not designed for HD and won't be well suited to the task. Also, you should seriously consider what the effects of shooting that round in an enclosed space without ear protection would be; you'd be in less pain than the target, but only slightly.

takhtakaal
January 22, 2008, 02:02 PM
Now I begin to ask myself serious questions: what caliber for Land Sharks?

Since I can't find the original ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMaKQJbSJx0

Cosmoline
January 22, 2008, 02:09 PM
And why would I be firing a dozen handgun rounds, but only one .45-70?

Much less chance of missing with the long gun.

My mantra has always been if my life is on the line I will use the biggest baddest weapon I have to defend it. I don't waste much time on secondary and tertiary concerns about "overpenetration" and whether the jury will like my underwear color. If your life is at risk all other considerations fall to the wayside and the single goal is to survive. If you are facing imminent and unlawful deadly force you must stop that force RIGHT NOW or die. There is no room for putzing around. So if you have a big mean hunting rifle and a little CCW piece, use the rifle!

Overpenetration issues aside, most 45-70 rifles are not designed for HD and won't be well suited to the task. Also

How so? There are many short, handy leverguns in .45-70. Using one for home defense is just a question of load selection.

without ear protection would be;

If you fire a handgun or 12 ga. in that space you'll lose some hearing as well. I fired a .357 in a room once and my ears were ringing for weeks. It's inevitable that you will have some damage. If your life is on the line your hearing is a secondary consideration.

USPfan03
January 23, 2008, 02:08 AM
while the longer gun is more accurate it also hinders the shooter in HD due to that same length that gives it the accuracy. I would recommend something more like this; http://www.hecklerkoch-usa.com/rifles_usc_general.html
Just seems like something more like this would be a better choice for HD, accurate but not so big that it becomes hindering in a house full of stuff. Personally I would have an mp5 for home defense if I could get one. Yeah you will lose some penetration but could fire 3 to 5 rounds accurately with a lot less recoil. Just my thoughts though.

Tony50ae
January 24, 2008, 12:22 AM
The 45/70 was a standard infantry weapon at one time typically a 405 grain bullet poking along at about 1200fps. I bet that round still went through an enemy soldier no problem. The OP showed a hollow point though and a much lighter bullet. At 1900 fps I guess it would be still too much, though recenly here in Hawaii we had a guy chase down his ex girlfriend and beat her to death with the butt of a shotgun in broad daylight. He stood 6'2" and weighed nearly 340 pounds! I am betting that 300 grain hollowpoint bullet would be about perfect for him!

Combatops1911
January 24, 2008, 04:05 AM
ONLY IF YOU GET THIS MODEL:

http://www.wildwestguns.com/Bushwacker/Bushwacker2.jpg

Cosmoline
January 24, 2008, 01:50 PM
while the longer gun is more accurate it also hinders the shooter in HD due to that same length that gives it the accuracy

An 1895G is actually built to be easily manipulated in tight situations. Have you ever carried or used one? You might be surprised. It's actually easier to manipulate than the H&K faux subgun there. The H&K is 35" oal while the 1895G is 37" oal. The H&K has numerous snag points (magazine, skeletonized stock), while the Marlin has very few. Arguably the sights, but those can be altered easily.

I'm not saying the H&K is a poor choice, but given the two I'd grab the Marlin any day of the week. It's a wonderful feeling of security to have that level of power in hand.

41magsnub
January 24, 2008, 01:59 PM
I am reading this thread and having visions of clearing rooms in my house to get to an exit or a more suitable gun with my Shiloh Sharps and cringing!:neener:

yah.. I know about the levers but this what I think of when I think 45-70.

The Sharps is in the safe, other more practical guns are at hand!

Eyesac
January 24, 2008, 02:05 PM
Certainly wouldn't be my first choice and neither was 300WM... If it's all I had, sure.

takhtakaal
January 24, 2008, 02:06 PM
The Sharps is in the safe, other more practical guns are at hand!

That's easy for you to say, pal. You don't have a marauding buffalo herd to contend with in your house, now do you?

:D

Cosmoline
January 24, 2008, 02:34 PM
I am reading this thread and having visions of clearing rooms in my house to get to an exit or a more suitable gun with my Shiloh Sharps and cringing

Hey it worked for Quigley ;-)

KBintheSLC
January 24, 2008, 02:37 PM
I really don't see the point in using this caliber for HD. If it is carnage and destruction you wish to deliver on your target, why not use a 12 gauge with some buckshot? That should quench your thirst for blood, while leaving distant neighbors out of it.

takhtakaal
January 24, 2008, 02:43 PM
Nah, it's the buffalo tongues we be wanting.

[http://www.bikerlady.com/portfolio/images/Mainbuf.jpg

Just not this one, for sure.

blackhawk2000
January 24, 2008, 02:48 PM
I'm leaning towards the overpenetration side, but until someone shoots someone with it, or posts gelatin tests this is all just speculation.

41magsnub
January 24, 2008, 02:48 PM
That's easy for you to say, pal. You don't have a marauding buffalo herd to contend with in your house, now do you?

What's funny is there is a guy raising several head of buffalo a couple of miles up the road so that is not outside the realm of possibility!

Cosmoline
January 24, 2008, 02:54 PM
If it is carnage and destruction you wish to deliver on your target, why not use a 12 gauge with some buckshot? That should quench your thirst for blood, while leaving distant neighbors out of it.

I have to ask, if you don't plan on inflicting carnage and blood why would you shoot someone at all? Some folks here have a pretty weird idea about firearms. As if a handgun is some sanitized form of deadly force that's more acceptable. Of course a handgun still draws an awful lot of blood and screams, it just doesn't stop someone as effectively as the mighty .45-70 would.

If your life is on the line, you'd better use the biggest baddest weapon you have. If you have a 20mm cannon and can bring it into play, by all means do so. You are facing IMMINENT DEATH after all. Ideally you will have loaded the cannon with exploding rounds, but when the reaper is at hand it's long past time to worry about such things. You fight as hard as you can with as much as you've got or you die, period.

KBintheSLC
January 24, 2008, 03:01 PM
If your life is on the line, you'd better use the biggest baddest weapon you have. If you have a 20mm cannon and can bring it into play, by all means do so.

Please don't move to my neighborhood.

If this is true, the we should all arm ourselves with small tactical nukes. So when someone breaks in, we can just vaporize the entire block.

If you are defending your property and your life, then your weapon doesn't really need to extend much further than that. An AK47, or a 12 GA, or even a good handgun is the most I feel I would ever need to cover MY grounds.

Cosmoline
January 24, 2008, 03:56 PM
An AK47, or a 12 GA, or even a good handgun is the most I feel I would ever need to cover MY grounds.

An AK or 12 ga, loaded with FMJ or slugs, will "overpenetrate" as much as a .45-70.

If this is true, the we should all arm ourselves with small tactical nukes.

No, that would kill everybody. If you can't understand the difference between the minute and largely theoretical danger posed by a round passing through a body and continuing to tumble through some walls and the danger of a nuke or high explosives, you need to get out to the range some more.

41magsnub
January 24, 2008, 04:03 PM
No, that would kill everybody. If you can't understand the difference between the minute and largely theoretical danger posed by a round passing through a body and continuing to tumble through some walls and the danger of a nuke or high explosives, you need to get out to the range some more.

Careful there.. what if by some fluke he got hold of a small nuke and set it off at the range. Do you want that on your conscience? Do you?

Cosmoline
January 24, 2008, 04:07 PM
It looks like our friend at brass fetcher has done some evals on this, actually.

Here's the results of a 300 grain hotcor out of a guide gun:

http://www.brassfetcher.com/federal4570.html

You can see from the gel that this is a true man stopper. Nobody is going to keep going after THAT impact.

Penetrated 16" and out of the block, then 6" of polyester arresting material. 0.761" average diameter.

In comparison, the heavy wolf SP x39 penetrated the entire block about 5" of arresting material.

A Speer 240 grain HP .44 Magnum penetrated the entire block and about 8" of arresting material.

If you move to non-SP/HP rounds the overpentration gets much greater. Even the .45 ACP, loaded with a SWC, penetrated 10" of arresting material after passing through the gel

http://www.brassfetcher.com/45acpswc.html


So faced with the reality that a lot of rounds will "overpenetrate", I'll stay by my choice:

http://www.brassfetcher.com/images/4570block2a.jpg

That'll do it.

Conventional wisdom about which firearms pose the greatest ovepentration concerns are often not confirmed by reality. Look at the mighty7.62x54R in a 180 grain SP loading. Surely THAT will penetrate five schools. Nope:

Single shot fired from 10' distance. Impacted at 2517 ft/sec and penetrated to 15.8" in gelatin and ~ 2.5" into a polyester bullet arresting box. Bullet was recovered at 113.4gr weight and 0.678" average diameter.

Or the 150 grain Ingman:

Single shot fired from 10' distance. Impacted at 2741 ft/sec and penetrated to 15.8" in gelatin and ~ 2.0" into a polyester bullet arresting box. Bullet was recovered at 103.4gr weight and 0.691" average diameter.

Then SURELY that big 203 grain loading must overpentrate! Nope, it didn't even make it out of the block:

Single shot fired from 10' distance. Impacted at 2251 ft/sec and penetrated to 14.2". Two fragments of 6.2gr and 13.9gr penetrated to 12.6" (uncorrected) and 12.8" (uncorrected) respectively.

Matt-J2
January 24, 2008, 04:48 PM
Yep, says what I knew all along, .45-70 is too much for my home.
I value my neighbor's lives too much. After it passes through the bad guy, there's only a foot or two of empty air, 2 sheets of drywall, and then the next apt. I'm certain the drywall has less ability to stop the round than that bullet arresting box.

Your home might be different, though. If folks just remember that the people around them are living breathing people, not Bad Guys, Juries or Lawsuits, we'll do all right.

Cosmoline
January 24, 2008, 04:59 PM
So what do you use instead?

takhtakaal
January 24, 2008, 06:14 PM
So what do you use instead?

I think we need to come up with a potato gun chambered in 15 lb. rubber-coated bowling ball. It won't overpenetrate anything, except maybe for paneling, dry wall, and ten pins.

http://www.docsmachine.com/nonPB/mortar.html

http://www.docsmachine.com/nonPB/mortar07.jpg

Cosmoline
January 24, 2008, 08:04 PM
That would leave a serious bruise!

bpsig
January 24, 2008, 08:33 PM
Okay I used to keep a guide gun loaded with cowboy loads and hornady lever rounds.
Both in the car and in house. I am going to look at this as 1. he has a 45/70 currently and asking on loads performance.
In answer to this yes it will perfom. but it will also go thru depending on cross sectional area of impacts. So assume a side chest shot will it drop someone absolutely. will it go probably yes. question is do you have to worry about that ? Yes. if so what type of environment are you in ? Close neighbors etc Then again if thats all you have and its down to be drt or alive which one do you worry about first ?
A 223 may not penetrate but it also is non pc for most of the world. So That alone will draw more problems from the uninformed or the cranial rectal impaction groups. A lever action looks like an old west gun Which they consider old and not as threatening. Which is _____________. He dosen't say he has a 223. If it's a single shot rifle or sharps. it will do the job just more factors to think over but basic yes it will be enough rifle to stop someone. As the old west used them for how many years ?

takhtakaal
January 25, 2008, 12:00 AM
Okay, now this is funny, or is it timely?

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=334119

Must be a perceived lack of malevolent buffalo up there.

Diggers
January 25, 2008, 12:18 AM
That gel test made it look like there would be an exit whole the size of a softball. :eek:

I kinda wonder about those tests though, some times they just don't seem quite right. :confused:

Matt-J2
January 25, 2008, 12:29 AM
So what do you use instead?

Here's a picture:







That's right, nothin'. Not something I'd suggest, even for apt dwellers. ;)
No, it's not because I think nothing would be acceptable. I own two guns. One is a cap and ball .44 revolver. Doesn't work too well, though. The other is a Mosin M44. I love that rifle, but it's a bit much for in here. I've got a Neos on layaway, but that's a .22lr handgun. Not ideal, at all, but I'll keep it loaded anyway. Maybe I'll aim for the testicles. :p
We'll see what the taxman says this year. Maybe then I can afford something that meets my needs, and is affordable enough in ammo that I can actually practice with it, since I think we're all agreed that anything you miss with is bad mojo.






Oh, and in case you get the urge to ask, if I had the money...well, might be an AR. The .223 seems to have less 'punch through the bad guy issues' and I'm familiar with the platform from my time in the Army. Not sure though, honestly.
I'm just very uncomfortable with the idea of hurting my neighbors, especially the couple kids we have here. Possibly more than need be, and it may just be my downfall someday. It is what it is.

takhtakaal
January 25, 2008, 12:30 AM
Suddenly, the only obvious answer became readily apparent to all of them.

http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/1131/haribo108tb1.gif

It was time to call Haribo and have them bring out the GummiBuffalo™!

Matt-J2
January 25, 2008, 12:38 AM
Mmm, gummis!

The clear gummis are the polar bears!

Diggers
January 25, 2008, 02:49 AM
:):):)

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