What will become of Winchester, Browning, Remington & Marlin


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gmhamilton3
January 21, 2008, 03:52 PM
Is anyone concerned about the recent acquisitions of Bushmaster, Pather Arms, Remington Arms and Marlin Firearms by the private equity investment company Cerberus Capital Management. Does everyone know that Winchester and Browning are now owned by Fabrique Nationale de Herstal of Belgium. Will a corporate philosophy of profits first, out source the manufacturing of these widgits to China or India. Glad I bought my Rem 700BDL SS in 2003.

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Eric F
January 21, 2008, 03:57 PM
Who cares I cant wait to get my Chrysler AR15 next year.......

Actually I do not expect to see too many of these lines to go over seas. Some will for sure like the base lines and cheaper stuff but not all.

Jorg Nysgerrig
January 21, 2008, 03:58 PM
Is anyone concerned about the recent acquisitions of Bushmaster, Pather Arms, Remington Arms and Marlin Firearms by the private equity investment company Cerberus Capital Management
You mean other than the people who posted in the other dozen threads about this?
Does everyone know that Winchester and Browning are now owned by Fabrique Nationale de Herstal of Belgium.
Yes.

Omaha-BeenGlockin
January 21, 2008, 03:59 PM
Just seems consolidation going on.

S&W buying out T/C and Beretta gobbling up just about everthing else.

Probably will make for stronger companies---but I can see customer service suffering.

jad0110
January 21, 2008, 04:09 PM
Cerberus Capital Management is the same group who purchased Chrysler from the now defunct Daimler-Chrysler Corporation. There is some worry over that in the various automotive publications (Car and Driver, Motor Trend, etc) as Cerberus apparently has a reputation for buying troubled companies and selling off the bits and pieces for more $$$ than they paid up front.

Lets just hope those are unfounded worries.

MAKster
January 21, 2008, 04:52 PM
FN Herstal has owned Browning since 1977. FN bought Winchester/USRAC in 1989. Browning and Winchester do not manufacture any firearms. They are just brand names put on firearms manufactured by other FN subsidiaries.

PA1749
January 21, 2008, 04:53 PM
One more reason to go with RUGER !!!

ilbob
January 21, 2008, 05:10 PM
many browning brand labeled firearms were made in japan.

huntsman
January 21, 2008, 05:33 PM
History is littered with defunct U.S. gun companies. If there's a market for a product it will be made by somebody

jerkface11
January 21, 2008, 05:54 PM
You don't have to worry about DPMS or Bushmaster being outsourced. Evil "Assault" rifles can't be imported so they have to be made here.

Steve N
January 21, 2008, 06:20 PM
In typical short-sighted American business fashion, the new owners will ship the manufacturing and technology overseas for lower-pay labor. More high-pay US manufacturing jobs will disappear. American's will no longer be able to afford to buy those brands. Our foreign debt will continue to grow.

Pretty soon we will have outsourced all of our manufacturing, and we won't have the technology, capacity, or skilled labor to build the weapons to defend ourselves. Our enemies will simply walk right in and take over, and we won't be able to do a thing about it.

The typical American business model may be great for a few investors who have time to follow their stocks all day, and jump when the time is right, but for the rest of us, its not so great. In China, the govt will subsidize a business sector to get it started. In America, a company's stock drops 5 points if the CEO sneezes.

We are on a viscious downslope with our business models here in the US, and I don't see where its going to stop.

Communism is a bad idea, but a 5-year plan isn't.

atblis
January 21, 2008, 06:52 PM
One more reason to go with RUGER !!!
Yeah, if they manage to crap them up enough, Ruger might look like a good alternative. :neener:

SG Merc
January 21, 2008, 07:05 PM
Do I think it's a good thing for the future of firearms availability that nearly all firearms will be manufactured by only two companies?

Absolutely not.

Robert Hairless
January 21, 2008, 07:11 PM
Aren't such developments inherent in a free market system?

Winchester 73
January 21, 2008, 07:23 PM
Aren't such developments inherent in a free market system?

Certainly correct.The market will make the necessary adjustments.Nothing to worry about,IMO.

nplant
January 21, 2008, 07:43 PM
Look on the bright side - what with the dollar doing worse against other foreign currency, pretty soon, everyone will be switching their loss-leader products to US manufacture. Heheheh.

Technosavant
January 21, 2008, 10:53 PM
I would probably expect that eventually, once the companies become stronger, Cerberus would spin them off, likely as one larger corporation with all the brand names under one roof. Spinning off a healthy company through sale of stock would generate a fair amount of profit (stripping and flipping may be worthwhile for shortsighted investors or companies that can't be made healthy, but if they can, better to rehab it).

If absolutely nothing else, the brand names themselves are worthwhile, and can be licensed, much like Olin licensed the Winchester name to USRAC.

Charles Daly
January 21, 2008, 11:00 PM
Steve N: what jerkface posted just before you is correct. The firearms from DPMS and Bushmaster cannot be imported into the US. They must be made here.

ozarkhillbilly
January 22, 2008, 12:05 AM
Lets see there are still

S&W
Beretta
Kimber
Glock
Springfield
CZ
H&K
FN
Cerberus Capital Management
Walther
Sig
Colt
Taurus
Armalite
Khar
Les Baer
Kel-tec
Para-Ordanance
Rock River
Ruger
Wilson
IMI
Tanfoglio
Stag
And all others I have forgotten


I do not know but that seems a far cry from just a couple. Lets face it Winchester and Remington were bought because they could not turn a profit and had massive debt. Marlin, DPMS, Bushmaster and Thompson/Center as well as a few other small players were bought because they could turn a profit but they needed cash to go to the next stage more then they could make, so their owners sold them nothing wrong with that.

By the way most companies do not out source because of lower paid workers, they out source because imbedded taxes count for around 30% of the cost of anything made in the USA. Cut out that 30% and factor in the fact that Americans are the hardest and most productive workers in the world and companies from all over the world would be opening factories here.

RedLion
January 22, 2008, 12:12 AM
Cerberus is only concerned with making money. They do this by taking out a loan for a very large portion of the cost of buying a company. Rearrange and streamline the management to make the company more profitable then turn around and sell it for an amount a little larger than what it cost in the beginning, but since most of the money is from loans they really doubled their investment.

I don't see a problem with it because Cerberus knows if they make garbage people won't buy it and they will lose a huge amount of money (read loan default) and they'll be in real trouble.

Zundfolge
January 22, 2008, 12:29 AM
Will a corporate philosophy of profits first, out source the manufacturing of these widgits to China or India.
Better that than a corporate philosophy that DOESN'T put profits first which ends with a boarded up building and unemployed gunsmiths.


Most folk on this site are on the "right page" on liberty when it comes to RKBA ... I wish we could get more of y'all on the right page when it comes to economics and the free market (which is the essence of liberty).

All too often those that complain about outsourcing and MIM parts are also the first to bitch and moan about the prices of quality, 100% Steel, 100% American made guns too.

CajunBass
January 22, 2008, 07:17 AM
If those companies were in such bad shape that it's cheaper to outsource them, or to shut them down it would have happened anyway.

What's the difference?

jaysouth
January 22, 2008, 07:57 AM
Few American jobs are lost because of wages. Most of the jobs that go overseas leave highly regulated, highly taxed states like California, New York and MA.

Overly complex regulations, the burdensome cost of compliance and intrangent unions are the reason that most leave for sunnier shores where business in wanted and appreciated as a source of jobs and not a golden goose to be robbed by shortsighted unions and politicians.

dodge
January 22, 2008, 09:01 AM
It's not all just the unions that are making the jobs to go over seas. The CEO's that demand mutli millon bonuses every year has a lot to do with it. At my place of work we went on strike this past fall trying to get some sort of health insurance that wouldn't cost the worker an arm and a leg. This past spring the ceo took a 25+ millon bonus. I say that he should have been happy with a 1 millon bonus and put the rest back in the company. We are a machine/assembly shop that make compressors and stuff for the oil companys and the military. We have machines that were made back in the 1920's and unable to get parts for them we have to make them in house. I for one am tired of everything being blamed on the unions.

cornman
January 22, 2008, 09:13 AM
Ex Fed chairman Snow and old Dan Quale are on the borard of Cerberus Capital Management. Cerberus is where you get a job after you are done doing all the GOP boot licking. Watch for down sizing of those companies to shore up the balance sheets and then a sale to an overseas company. The criminals will pocket the difference and call it good for America.

ShunZu
January 22, 2008, 09:24 AM
Years ago, Ross Perot was right on ONE thing. Remember his quote "That huge sucking sound you'll hear are U.S. jobs going overseas."

What you're seeing, in the midst of this stock market selloff and sabre-rattling of a recession hitting the U.S. -and- the dollar going much weaker against other currencies is very simple. The U.S. is being brought down and the rest of the world is going up -- we're witnessing an evening of parity worldwide. Whether that should be a discussion for conspiracy theorists or not is yet to be seen... but it seems to be what is happening IMHO.

JohnBT
January 22, 2008, 10:43 AM
"Ex Fed chairman Snow and old Dan Quale are on the borard of Cerberus Capital Management. Cerberus is where you get a job after you are done doing all the GOP boot licking. Watch for down sizing of those companies to shore up the balance sheets and then a sale to an overseas company. The criminals will pocket the difference and call it good for America."

It's obvious you don't know a thing about Cerberus Capital Management. Google can be your friend when it comes to facts.

John

Robert Hairless
January 22, 2008, 11:10 AM
The criminals will pocket the difference and call it good for America.

I'd be interested to know who these "criminals" are, what crimes they committed, and when they were found guilty of those crimes.

But if you mean that everyone is a "criminal" who disagrees with you, has a different view of life, has made a success of it, or is not chronically frustrated, unhappy, and angry please don't bother posting that lengthy list.

30 cal slob
January 22, 2008, 11:13 AM
isn't the head honcho over at cerberus a gun nut? :evil:

cornman
January 22, 2008, 11:47 AM
http://www.johnmugarian.com/2007/04/cabinet_members_who_got_into_t.html

gmhamilton3
January 22, 2008, 01:03 PM
Lets face it, the rifles and shotguns of today are at a pinnacle of technical innovations. Metallugy advacements have increased the power and accuracy while synthetics and recoil reducing technology have made long guns more pleasurable to shoot. They are truly 21st century weapons however I don't see any pending innovations which would spur a high cyclical demand like say in the computer or automotive industry. There is no built in obsolesence, a well made firearm will last a lifetime. Remington was experimenting with an electrical ignition system a few years back but the tried and proved mechnical system works just fine. My concern is that in a flat market corporate profit factors simply boils down to price of the product minus the cost of production. Competition controls the first and unless there are ways to manufactor long guns better and cheaper, corporations will just go with cheaper production techniques. Sad, but it is the real world.

JohnL2
January 22, 2008, 02:20 PM
I think some of us are having an emotional reaction to the consolidation. A lot of companies that we've known since we can remember are just being absorbed and becoming nonentities.
Remember AMC Motors? Plymouth? Oldsmobile?
It is the nature of the business world. The strong will overtake the weak.
And monopolies doesn't necessarily mean bad for the consumer. Look at Apple Computer. They are a monopoly but make products that a lot of people like. And they are considered a cutting-edge and innovation leader.

GunTech
January 22, 2008, 05:43 PM
FN and Browning have a long history together - about 100 years. Everyone seems to be worried about foreign outsourcing, but no one gets upset with Belgium made Brownings.

I have several Browning single shots that were made in Japan and they are superb guns. FN is making their M70 derived PBR and SPR sniper rifles in South Carolina, and that's where the new M70 are slated to be made.

As far as Remington and the others - many have been suffering from lack of capital investment and are using ancient machinery. They can use an influx of money and technology to make their manufacturing competitive.

Given Ruger's history of support for 'sensible' gun restrictions, it's hard to get excited about that company. Their products are only average anyway.

ozarkhillbilly
January 22, 2008, 06:24 PM
Cerberus is where you get a job after you are done doing all the GOP boot licking. Watch for down sizing of those companies to shore up the balance sheets and then a sale to an overseas company. The criminals will pocket the difference and call it good for America

It is apparent that there are allot of folks that do not understand capitalism or freedom. Unfortunately a socialist mind set is effecting a lot of our members here who just spout off anything that their democratic masters tell them.

atek3
January 22, 2008, 07:13 PM
Ya... how dare these evil capitalists try to cut waste and increase profits...
its unamerican...

atek3

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