You use your gun for self defense...then what??

[TonyB]

Ok,You're approched by a bad guy, who says"Gimme your money"....he has a knife.......you have a gun,and you politly show it to him.He turns and runs(not all bad guys are dumb)......now what???Do you call the cops,and make a report(being that you brandished)or do you high tail it out of there(no harm no foul)????:cool:

[cool45auto]

I'd call the cops and then give a description of the loser so that he may get picked up. If you call before he does then he can't say some crazy guy pulled a gun on him and get you into trouble.

[Baba Louie]

The Boy Scout answer is, of course. Report the scum...er, underprivileged fellow to the police with a good description, location, time, etc.

Points to ponder, however are,

Where are you?
How close/fast will the police response be?
Are you carrying legally?
Did BG see your car or get a good decription of you?
Should you call the police?
Are there witnesses?
Are they your friends or BG associates or neutral third parties?
Do you have some other pressing engagement you can't miss?
Could you call your attorney first or second?
Do you even have an attorney or do you want him/her billing you for his "friendship and advice"?

Would you be willing to testify against the BG in court and face the future consequence that decision may bring -or- are you willing to let bygones be bygones and allow some other victim to face a different end result?

Your call.

Adios

[Graystar]

ALWAYS report crimes. Although they will probably not catch the guy, the police department uses geographic crime statistics to determine deployment. So if an area needs more cops, the best way to get them is to always report criminal activity.

As for pulling out your gun, don't worry about it.

[Edward429451]

Realistically it depends on if there was witnesses. There are those who will say 'Do the right thing and call the cops' and in fact it may be a good idea depending on if you have your CCW permit, or if you want to build yourself a defense paper trail just in case you ever show up in court for a weapons charge, etc..

If the BG runs and you're ok, I see no problem re holstering and going your own way. Save the LEO's a lot of paperwork, maybe they could go home early to thier family. Might save you a charge or three also.

I don't have a CCW permit and a dog attacked me few years back. I shot once in the grass in front of the dog and it turned him from the attack. I beat feet out of there and went home. (Noticed the next day the dog was now chained up!) Everybody won that day. I did the right thing.

Circumstances could drastically change the correct course of action. I might call the cops next time, might not.

YMMV. Don't take legal advice from me. I am not a lawyer.

[txgolfer45]

Assuming you are carrying legally, absolutely call the police and make a report. Otherwise, the BG could call the police and accuse you of brandishing. Be the first to make the call!!!

Scott

[Mannlicher]

well, I would not show the guy the gun. I would not give the money either. In either case, I would not report it.

[Standing Wolf]

At the least, I'd want the cops to have the criminal's description and modus operandi. Just because one citizen refused to be a victim doesn't mean all will.

[NC Shooter]

Call and report it. One of the things that bugs the hell out of me is that there are very few statistics on how often guns are used to prevent crime and harm.

Too often the gun is re holstered and the GG walks away. The BG is free to commit crimes again and again, maybe hurting other people. The beneficial use of a gun for self defense is never recorded.

Please report the crime.

[Edward429451]

Please report the crime.

That'd be ideal and I thought about that. We all know that the GG's all too often get charged, jailed, property confiscated, the whole nine yards when an incident occurs. Anymore It seems to be a rarity for a GG to walk with no charges. It seems that the police are to be feared more than any criminal for this reason alone. You hardly ever run into a BG, but the police are everywhere. Why subject yourself and your family to the wringer when no harm no foul, the BG left? It goes against reason.

True enough the BG walks away to possibly commit more acts and I'm not without my sympathy to the community, but (thanks to the administration), I can't warn the community of the punk and must put My family before my community in this instance. The administration forces this reality on us. I don't like it. I think I'm just being realistic. Trying to do the right thing is like panning for gold in a septic tank, you might not find a nugget but you're sure to get splashed with crap.

If I ever had to really use my sidearm in defense, I'd certainly call in the police. You cant run from a body and John Walsh and it would look worse to try & run & get caught later, but John Law gets the night off if no shots fired.:D

It dont sound nice or PC, but the family unit is to be protected from all enemies, foreign (BG's) and domestic (administration).

Where's the flaw in that logic?:scrutiny:

[Dr.Rob]

If you draw you had better be ready to shoot. There is no 'brandishing' to make him turn tail and run.

[Shaughn Leayme]

Given the plethora of video camera's that we have in this day and age and the quality of pictures that they can take, you are taking a risk, by not calling the police.

Before someone says, "but they aren't in alleys" think again, business and landowners are putting camera's everywhere, in part to satisfy residents and insurance companies and for thier own piece of mind.

A camera is impartial, but the person looking at the footage can come to the wrong conclusion about what happened and then he/she/they call the police and since they have footage of you, pointing a gun at someone and the innocent person (remember his weapon may not be visible to the camera) turns and runs away and then you holster and go the opposite direction looking around in a furitive manner (perception of the person looking at the film), looking for witnesses to your (il)legal act (again based on the perception of the viewer).

Now the police get a report from you, saying that you had an attempted robbery and how you dealt with it and then this tape shows up and it will be looked at in a totally different light.

I am going to call and report, even though I might have to jump thru some hoops, because of it.

If I don't report and the BG does, then I have to refute his story and since I didn't report right away, who is going to be looked at with a jaundiced eye?

[Baba Louie]

TonyB,

The reality is, if he's within 7 yds of you and has knife in hand and you DO NOT have gun in hand, you lose... or you'd better be backing up fast.

21 ft. is about 1.5 seconds or less for him to cover you and paint you red, if he so chooses. 7 yds. is the magical number I've been taught.

Tag... you're it.

So, I guess I'll waffle again and say... it depends on your jurisdiction.
Urban or rural, east coast, west coast or in between, big town or small town.

If you see him/them laying in wait as you approach... that's another thing altogether.

Still and all, calling to give the Constables an eyewitness account of the accosting is a prudent procedure.

Adios

[Preacherman]

Dr. Rob and Baba Louie have it. If he's within range to threaten me with a knife, he's not going to get the opportunity to turn and run - I'll be shooting, not brandishing the gun like a talisman! If you've ever experienced the Tueller Drill, you know what I mean. It's just too darn dangerous to assume that he'll turn and run at the sight of your gun. Besides, a good knife man will know what he's capable of doing. If I were within 7 yards of someone I knew to be a good knife man, believe me, I'd be giving him my wallet rather than trying to draw my gun. That can come later, when he's further away!

[bountyhunter]

You just put your hands behind yourself and wait for the cuffs.

[Jeff OTMG]

My action would be totally dependent on what state, city, and area the incident occurred.

[TarpleyG]

I don't buy the "bad guy calling the cops on you" routine that many of you advocate. The last thing in the world 99.9% of these types want is an encounter with police. Even if it is just a phone call. I'd say, if it is just you and the bad guy, don't report it. They won't catch the creep anyway. OTOH, if someone else sees the event, you may want to either acknowledge/converse with them if possible and explain or just call the po-po and report it. I would still remain anonymous if you can.

GT

[KMKeller]

Tarp - You're assuming that the guy is going to hang around. All he has to do is place an anonymous call reporting a "man brandishing a gun" and give your description and where he saw you. Damage is done.

It's happened many times in the past and I'm sure will happen many more times. I advocate calling the incident in to the local PD. The next person may not have a pistol to protect themselves and the perp may find himself in the mood to do some damage to someone. Give the PD the help they need.

[rappa]

Diall 911 and report it to the police so they can keep an eye out for the perp and you can establish that you were the victim and avoid any identity problems when the police arrive.

[El Tejon]

What KM sez. Save the super secret vigilante (Batman) stuff for the gun shoppe.

Remember there are only two boxes on the police report: perp and victim. If BG gets a hold of the po-po first, he goes down as the victim.:eek: Problem #2 lingers!

[Daniel Flory]

1- Call the police
2- Call El Tejon

[Baba Louie]

The man that taught our CCW class proposed that we take a couple of 20's, fold them over half and "STAPLE THEM SHUT", and carry them as evidence money. Throw it on the ground in front of you.

Yeah, he told us, if the bad guy's that close, give them something to hang onto that YOU CAN IDENTIFY to the police... "Yes officer, he has three $20 bills with a staple (or staple holes) in them right over Andy Jackson's eyes" (or somesuch). Evidence that links him and his crime to you and the police can duly note it, if they pick him up based on your description and find money with matching descriptive holes.

Throwing it on the ground also forces him to bend down to pick it up, giving you a heartbeat to do something else... your choice. Boogey or begin to draw your... wallet or whatever you carry on your strongside hip...

Just an idea.

Ayoob wrote about carrying some money folded around a matchbook I think it was. Created some negative controversy... "I'm not giving any creep my hard earned dough, etc", but it does create another heartbeat for you to decide and act...

Adios

[Tamara]

Well, when the actual situation happened:

A) I was not cool enough to do the whole "no brandishing" thing. I pulled the gun out in full expectation of having to use it, he backpedalled and started saying "It's cool! It's cool!" and then turned and ran. I guess he'd never heard of Dennis Tueller either. He did, however, retain posession of his straight razor, so perhaps he set up shop elsewhere that morning.
B) I may have tried saying something in a commanding voice, but I doubt anything came out.
C) I was not inclined to shoot a fleeing man, so I guess I broke the ol' "never pull it unless you're gonna use it" bugaboo.
D) I did not report the incident to Johnny Law. Mea culpa.

EDIT: I did not report the incident per se to Johnny Law. The next day, my roommate called the cops to come clean out the guy's "nest" in our parking lot. I don't think the whole 'drawing the gun' part was included in the tale other than a vague reference to "...and my roommate scared him off."

Edited again, as (like the college dropout I am) I used "backpeddled" rather than "backpedalled". You "pedal" your feet, unless you are trying to sell them, in which case you "peddle" them. D'oh! :o

[RandyB]

call the cops. It improves the chances that they can take Mr. BG off the street and make our world a safer place. This is especially important since the next person might not be so lucky and get the drop on this BG.

[Edward429451]

With all the potential ways for it to go bad its a wonder anyone even goes to work or the supermarket. Think I'll stay home today and hide under the covers instead of walk that tightrope. But, OH NO, what if I have a home invasion? NOT.

I like Tams response to the incident. Call the police after the fact so the community still gets the warning. How'd I scare him off occifer? I made him think I had a gun. (I have a couple painted wooden trainer pistols) I was on my way to/from practicing disarming techniques with my friend.

Ya gotta admit, exciting times we live in.

[10-Ring]

Depending on the situation, I would call the police.

[Langenator]

Call the police, once you know you're safe. Security is always priority #1.

I was involved in an incident-"road rage" incident, not a robbery-where the BG did call the state troopers on me-mere minutes after my wife had dialed 911 from the passenger seat. (I had brandished my left mid-digit, which, in certain lighting conditions, apparently looks like a pistol; the woman who tried to merge her truck into my car brandished a Mini-Uzi. My Kahr never left the glove compartment, thanks to my wife.) I pulled off at a rest area to wait for the state troopers, and was "detained" briefly. The BG apparently never did stop.

If you're ever driving in the Vancouver, WA area and see a Ford pickup, WA lic A07580D, stay away from them.

[Langenator]

Call the police, once you know you're safe. Security is always priority #1.

I was involved in an incident-"road rage" incident, not a robbery-where the BG did call the state troopers on me-mere minutes after my wife had dialed 911 from the passenger seat. (I had brandished my left mid-digit, which, in certain lighting conditions, apparently looks like a pistol; the woman who tried to merge her truck into my car brandished a Mini-Uzi. My Kahr never left the glove compartment, thanks to my wife.) I pulled off at a rest area to wait for the state troopers, and was "detained" briefly. The BG apparently never did stop.

If you're ever driving in the Vancouver, WA area and see a Ford pickup, WA lic A07580D, stay away from them.

[Raz]

I suppose one of my biggest worries is being accosted by one or more weaponless individuals who intend to rob or otherwise do me harm. What would be the proper response if I had no recourse for retreat, and they forcibly tried to rob me? What if in my response to ward them off with my fists they discover a gun on my hip, and try to disarm me? Trying to grab your gun while your rolling around on the ground doesn't seem to be very strategically advantageous...

Even if I felt an extreme physical threat from someone unarmed, and I could not de-escalate the situation, there would be a lot of explaining to do if I ended up shooting them ... even if they had tried to take my weapon.


What do you all think about the risk of being disarmed by an unarmed assailant(s)?


-Raz

[pax]

On witnesses:

1) There is always a witness.
2) A witness never sees what you saw, and never knows what you knew.
3) Some witnesses are friends of the perp. These will, amazingly, see what he saw and know what he knew.

On brandishing:

1) Pulling out a gun in the reasonable belief that you are in immediate and otherwise unavoidable risk of death or grave bodily harm is not 'brandishing.' It is self-defense. Yes, even if you don't have to fire the weapon.

On reporting the crime:

1) Cops are trained to look for victims and perpetrators. The first one to report gets to be treated as the victim. If you have to deal with the law, this is where you want to be.
2) If you think there's any chance that there was a witness to your actions, you should report the encounter to avoid needless complications like getting arrested.
3) If you are carrying the gun illegally, you have fewer legal options. It would be stupid to report the encounter if in doing so you have to report that you were deliberately violating the law of the land. Better hope there were no witnesses.
4) See the first comment under "on witnesses."

pax

Thou shalt honour the 11th commandment and keep it Wholly. -- 'Simon Jester' in Robert Heinlein's The Moon is a Harsh Mistress

[pax]

Raz,

You cannot legally pull your gun if you do not reasonably believe that you are in danger of death or of severe bodily injury. ("Severe bodily injury" means crippling or worse -- something long term. A broken arm isn't, a broken back is.)

In order to reasonably believe that you are at such risk from an unarmed assailant, "disparity of force" has to be present. That is, the assailant must be bigger, stronger, younger, more powerful, etc than you are. Or there must be more than one assailant. Or the assailant must be male and you female. Basically, anything that makes it a radically unfair fight and gives you the reasonable expectation that the assailant could kill you with his bare hands would meet the 'disparity of force' criteria.

As you said, you'd still have a much stickier legal problem if you shot an unarmed person than you would if he were armed. But as long as disparity of force is present and as long as you have a reasonable belief that your life is in immediate danger at the moment you pull the trigger, you should be okay.

pax

[scottgun]

What do you all think about the risk of being disarmed by an unarmed assailant(s)?
Raz- First rule of a gun fight is bring a gun. I don't get into physical scuffles while I am packing. If someone tries to get physical, I will tell them to back off, next I will try to leave, if they follow and continue to attempt physical force, I will reply with force. Another good reason to carry pepper spray along with your CCW. No weapon displayed but the threat of physical harm, non-lethal pepper spray should take care of the problem. Stay SA, and don't let anyone get that close who might pose a threat.

I have fought off muggers (two ~16 year old kids, one displayed a gun on his waist) with only my loud commanding voice and a can of pepper spray. Any yes, I would without a doubt report such an incident to the police. They actually brought out a K-9 unit to try to track down the turds who tried to mug me, unfortunately with no luck. Judging by how fast those kids ran, they were miles away by the time the cops showed up.

I don't necessarily agree with 'you must shoot if you touch your gun'. A lot can happen in the 2 seconds it takes to draw and you will be responsible for the outcome. There are many instances where crimes are averted by a CCW holder presenting their weapon without firing.

[Nick96]

Murphy's Law:
In the absence of knowledge, training or experience - a split second decision made in the heat of the moment will likely be the wrong one.

Accum's Razor:
When faced with a multitude of plausible variables, the correct solution is usually the simplest one.

A few more writs of common wisdom:
- The "authorities" are NOT your buddies
- It is the nature of all bureaucracies to seek to expand their sphere of control and influence - exclusive of the desire of those they were created to serve.
- Any dealings with the "government" WILL result in lost time & money
- You have rights, but they are not automatic - or often retained FREE OF CHARGE
- The entity most CONCERNED with your well being is YOU
- The entity most RESPONSIBLE for your personal safety is YOU
- Your peers are NOT stupid. You are better off being JUDGED by a jury of your peers than making a DEAL with bureaucrats.

I trust that 80% of the people involved in the law enforcement and judicial functions of government are fine, brave, moral and utterly dedicated servants of the public. Unfortunatally, many of my limited dealings have been with the other 20%. Just "luck of the draw" I suppose.

No bashing intended here - but consider that it's called the "Criminal Justice System" - not the "Victim Justice System". Right or wrong is open for debate - but that's the reality of the way the deck is stacked for MOST of us common citizens.

[TamThompson]

Baba,
My CHL instructor said something very similar. He said he carries $40, in the form of one twenty and twenty one's, inside a heavy, cheap Mexican money clip. If they try to rob him, he gets it out (the 20 is on the outside, so it looks like a lot of money, and the clip adds some flash and some weight), and THROWS it as far as he can. This gets the BG to retreat to go after it.

He also said that he then watches closely, and if the BG turns around and looks back at him after picking up the money, he sees CHL-instructor with his arm still outstretched, thus revealing his shoulder holster gun. :D
He added that if BG looks back, CHL-instructor DRAWS.

A nice system.

[Deepdiver]

You are the good guy, so do the right thing.

We have to hold the high ground, (morally) or our rights don't mean a whole lot.

[Pain]

First Scottgun:
Before obtaining my CHL here in Tejas, A buddy of mine who has his CHL carried Pepperspray as well as his Pistol. I asked him Why. He told me That it would be alot easier to Explain yourself and show justification in a shooting if you Maced the BG first, and he did'nt stop, so you shot him. This is due to the fear you felt after maceing him and he kept coming. Plus it is alot easier to explain pepperspraying someone if you misjudged someones action, than it is explaining shooting someone. It made sense. However since I have obtained My CHL I see it a little differently. If I have time to think about maceing someone first...... Then this leaves holes in the Justification of a shooting, due to the fact that is shows one has the mental facilities and is'nt truly in fear of his life, if he Nukes the Perp First. This could go either way, But It is my interpretation that If I'm being threatened with Bodily harm or possibly death and I truly reasonably believe so, than it is My right to defend myself with whatever force nessecary. So In my opinion it is absurd to Risk Blasting a BG with mace, who's holding a knife or Gun threatening your Life it's a waste of precious time that Might cost you yours. If he's Close Enough to Mace than he's already too close If I'm in Fear. Am I Crazy in these thoughts?????



One More:
Someone stated throwing the Money or whatever the BG wants as far away to get the BG to retreat after it. This sounds like a good way to get them Ticked at you and possibly get you killed for doing so. If Im being robbed at gunpoint or knifepoint, I'm not reaching for My wallet I'm drawing my firearm. I don't care if they really meant to use it against me or not. I have to assume they do And I have to assume they won't just walk away after they rob me.
It was also stated that If the perp retreated to get the object thrown, and he looked back he would see one drawing their weapon. Even though you were getting robbed In Texas ( as hypothetical as it may be) could get you arrested too. Because you are only allowed to "draw" your firearm when and if you are justified in the use of deadly force. I could be wrong, correct me If I am, but you If the BG has run over to retreive the Item, and is somewhat of a distance away and not immediately threatening your person. You would not be Justified in the use or show of deadly force.

[Sunray]

Just showing a gun is no deterent. You have to be ready and able to use it. If you feel threatened, you should be drawing your pistol, not flashing it.

[scottgun]

Pain, Good point, however the important distinction is between physical force and deadly force. If someone is threatening you with bodily harm, no weapon, just fists, you would be on shaky ground responding with a handgun. A single unarmed man could pose deadly force, but shooting an unarmed man would be trouble, IMO. The point of carrying pepper spray is to have a varying level of defense. A lot of punks will give someone crap to see how far they can push them, ready to go the distance but not really wanting to get in deep. Being able to respond with pepper spray is a good compromise where you are threatened but deadly force is not quite justified. Examples would include, a bum aggressively begging for change in my face and touches me, a road rager walking up to your vehicle unarmed yet screaming and pounding on your door, or a drunk guy coming out of the bar who thought you looked at his woman, and now wants a piece of you. I don't want to shoot anyone, and if I can defend myself with less than lethal force, I'll do so.

"So In my opinion it is absurd to Risk Blasting a BG with mace, who's holding a knife or Gun threatening your Life it's a waste of precious time that Might cost you yours."

If the BG has a knife or gun, you are right, all bets are off, skip pepper spray, go directly to CCW and respond with lethal force. I never meant to say always use pepper spray first. I like having the option, but every situation is different.


p.s. the mugging incident I spoke of in my above post was while I was living in unarmed NYS, and a can of pepper spray was my only defense at the time.

[Loaded]

You use your gun for self defense...then what??
Ok,You're approched by a bad guy, who says"Gimme your money"....he has a knife.......you have a gun,and you politly show it to him.He turns and runs(not all bad guys are dumb)......now what???Do you call the cops,and make a report(being that you brandished)or do you high tail it out of there(no harm no foul)????


First of all, you were approached by a low life who wanted your money. You had no idea if after he got your money that he would decide to turn you into confetti. Then you politely show him your gun? Have you not practiced drawing and taking a shooting stance? Had you drawn and told him to FREEZE!, I doubt he would have shown you that he excelled in Track and Field during his 5 month stint in high school. He probably would have needed a clean pair of britches. That is when you call 911 and report your situation. Hold him at bay until the blue guys show up. Give an oral and written report and the bad guy gets to spend the next few weeks in Hotel Cell.

Same scenario as I just mentioned except this time he actually lunges at you. Simple - You've already drawn your weapon and are in a good defensive stance and the next thing you know he's wearing a toga and is sportin' one of those fancy toe tags.

[TonyB]

Yeah,I'm not suggesting that I'd just flash my gun....I'd draw and be prepared to kill the SOB.........I was just saying what if he takes off instead of lunging at you or resisting.....shooting someone as he flees is not in my definition of self defense.....if you stand there w/ the knife however,I believe you're trying to kill me............and you lose.......I practice drawing and keeping my finger OFF the trigger until I shoot,and in that split second if he runs,I was just asking what you'd do after.....call the cops or not???
I guess it would have todo w/ the circumstances as they happen..:cool:

[Tamara]

Have you not practiced drawing and taking a shooting stance? Had you drawn and told him to FREEZE!, I doubt he would have shown you that he excelled in Track and Field during his 5 month stint in high school.

Apparently all three individuals I've thrown down on had lettered on the varsity track team. :scrutiny:

[Pain]

Scott I appreciate Your Reply, Hope you did'nt think I was trying to Flame Your Post ........Pain

[TallPine]

("Severe bodily injury" means crippling or worse -- something long term. A broken arm isn't, a broken back is.)

With all due respect, pax ...

how the heck am I supposed to know that someone only intends to break my arm .... :confused:

[happyguy]

>>>>Someone stated throwing the Money or whatever the BG wants as far away to get the BG to retreat after it. This sounds like a good way to get them Ticked at you and possibly get you killed for doing so. If Im being robbed at gunpoint or knifepoint, I'm not reaching for My wallet I'm drawing my firearm. I don't care if they really meant to use it against me or not. I have to assume they do And I have to assume they won't just walk away after they rob me.
It was also stated that If the perp retreated to get the object thrown, and he looked back he would see one drawing their weapon. Even though you were getting robbed In Texas ( as hypothetical as it may be) could get you arrested too. Because you are only allowed to "draw" your firearm when and if you are justified in the use of deadly force. I could be wrong, correct me If I am, but you If the BG has run over to retreive the Item, and is somewhat of a distance away and not immediately threatening your person. You would not be Justified in the use or show of deadly force.<<<<


It called "seizing the initiative" and it is a proven tactic for people that wish to stay alive. The object is to get the BG to change his attention from you to the money. This gives you an instant to make your draw while he is focused on retreaving the money. My take is to throw it just a few yards away though, not half a mile :)

Regards,
Happyguy:D

[Pain]

Is it not just a feesable to Draw while the BG thinks I'm Going For my wallet. I think I feel more comfortable with that than I do throwing my wallet, The dude shoots me, then goes after the loot. If it's gold he wants it's gold he'll get Gold-Dots.

[pax]

Tallpine,

how the heck am I supposed to know that someone only intends to break my arm .... :confused:
The key words to remember are "reasonably believe." You have to reasonably believe that you are at risk of severe bodily injury or death.

You don't have to know that he's 'only' going to break your arm, you just have to be able to explain why you reasonably fear that he'll do more than that.

What I'm getting at is that if you can't explain exactly what you feared and why, the courts will probably find that your fear wasn't reasonable -- and thus, that pulling your gun wasn't reasonable either. But if you can articulate a reasonable belief that the assailant would do more than break your arm, you'll be fine.

Hope that makes sense.

pax

[Edward429451]

Ever notice how many skinney guys are in the dojo's? Jackie Chan is skinny and could break your neck easily.

"Officer, he struck a stance of a martial artist giving me the reasonable belief that he was going to break my neck or back."

:D

[happyguy]

The idea is to split your enemy's attention and give him as much to focus on as possible. Even if all he does is divert his eyes for a moment, that could be the difference between getting shot or not.

All he has to do is pull the trigger. You've got to make a draw first.

Besides, if he gets mad and shoots you, just shoot him back!

Regards,
Happyguy:D

[Pain]

LOL, No doubt In my experience, Most BG's carry Cheap Pawn shop .25 Raven arm type pistols. Unless he's got it Shoved in my gut he ain't gonna hit me anyway!!! Take Care !! Pain®

[Nero Steptoe]

First mistake was not shooting the sorry s.o.b. before he had a chance to turn and run. Now that you've made that mistake, you might as well report the incident. Presenting a weapon in a genuine case of self-defense is not "brandishing".

[Powderman]

First, remember that unless you live in a desert, there are ALWAYS witnesses.

Second, as soon as the thug makes their intention clear, get some distance between you and them. Distance is your friend. Now, DRAW YOUR WEAPON. Make it plain that if they do not leave RIGHT NOW, you will shoot. If they break their attack and flee, re-holster and call the police immediately.

If they do not break off their attack, then act in accordance with your State laws, and your conscience. Be prepared to support your actions in a court of law.

[TamThompson]

I have a small quibble with what the Wells Fargo handgun instructor said: I'm sure that it's not at all uncommon for the BG's surviving family members/significant other/beer joint buddies to sue for wrongful death.

I'd be curious to see some statistics on the probability of a maimed BG suing, versus the survivors of a killed BG suing.

[scottgun]

Vic, in my CCW class they stress 'shoot to stop', if you shoot to kill you won't see the perp in court, but chances are you will see yourself in criminal court and then see the BG's relelatives in civil court. That shot to 'finish him off' will get you life behind bars.

It's a matter of semantics, but never shoot to kill, only shoot to stop the threat, once the threat is stopped, stop shooting. Never tamper with evidence to make it appear that the BG was a greater threat that he actually was. With modern day balistics they will know where every shot came from, in what order and every other detail related to the shooting. Telling the judge that your instructor told you shoot to kill won't keep you out of jail either. Stay safe.

[Pain]

I was told the Same thing.... Shoot to Stop, But shooting to stop and shooting to Kill Both are " use of deadly force" There is a fine Line. Never admit you were shooting to Kill. Hitting the BG in the Toe, or chest is no Different as defined by Law in Tejas. But Shooting a BG once in the throat and the Boys in Blue show up and see the dude laying on the ground, Is alot more explainable than, Explaining the reason you emptied (in my case) 11 rnds into the dude. If you do end up emptying your firearm into the BG, You'de better be still Pulling the Trigger When the Cops arrive.....Later Pain®

[TamThompson]

Pain,
I've heard the opposite advice--empty your magazine because that's what people do when they're panicked. I talked to a guy who had to shoot a bear on a hiking trip in NY somewhere. He said "I shot that revolver 15 times!" I said, "Dude, revolvers only hold 6 or 8 shots, at most." He grinned, and said, "Yeah, but my dad says I pulled the trigger 15 times because I was scared to death. Just kept going 'click, click.'"

I've also heard you should shoot to stop the attack, that there is no more "shoot to kill", or the old "shoot him in the leg as a warning." The logic on the last one being that you're only allowed to use deadly force if you're in fear for your life, and if you deliberately aimed for a leg, you must've not been in fear for your life.

My CHL instructor even said that some folks who carry revolvers have gotten heat in court for taking the time to cock the hammer after drawing their gun--the logic being that if you have time to do that, you must not be in fear for your life.

He also put to rest the old "if you shoot 'em on the porch, drag 'em in the house so it's a legal shoot." His comment was "You've watched C.S.I. Don't you think even the most junior-level forensics technician can tell when a body's been DRAGGED?" He had a point. Don't even think of tampering with evidence.

My gun ain't coming out until I know I have to shoot, and if that happens, the BG's got about 1 second to change my mind while I'm drawing.

[Baba Louie]

Like scottgun, I've been brainwashed, er, conditioned, into believing the old "Shoot to Stop (lethal encounter) "Shoot to Live" (as in fearing for life) dogma.

Oh Yeah, that sounds about right. Semantics. Sheeesh.

...then what?? Keep your mouth shut and your ears and eyes open afterwards. Sit down.

...then what?? Must Speak to Attorney... must speak to attorney...
He or she is gonna be your new best buddy for a spell, help ya do your thinking and talking during the aftermath of one storm and probably into the next civil storm, as you pay for half his/her new Mercedes. And well deseerved it would be.

...then what?? Go fight to get your other guns outta lockup/evidence or whatever the local constables do to your other firearms and also go get another firearm like the one you used and consequently lost (in all likelihood you'll never see it again)...

Sounds like a lot of bother. I can see why so many people would rather just give the bad guy whatever he wants and be done with it, hoping for the best...

I would think that most people who have BTDT would describe a roller coaster ride of emotions they'd rather do without, but I could be wrong.

But I opine, that the proper answer to "You use your gun for self defense...then what??" is,
"To spread the word that, once again, good triumphs over evil"... after your legal affairs are in order of course, should you actually have to "shoot to stop" with effect.

Adios

[Loaded]

In a SHTF situation do you really think you are going to pause and take concern for the "after the fact" scenarios? Shoot to stop??? Not me. I'm going to kill the guy. If you shoot to stop, then you will be in court (and he will no coubt be sitting there with his neck brace on, his cane, his seeing eye dog, his dialysis machine, etc. for all the jury to see and feel sorry for while his lawyer says "He was abused as a child and his mother was a whore." Hm... Now who looks like the bad guy? YOU! Kill him if he is attempting to do harm to you and if his family takes you to court, so what. They weren't there, and they will look like money grubbing weasels.

Shoot to stop? Where ya gonna place that one bullet to stop him? His hand?

[scottgun]

Shoot to stop vs. shooting to kill -
there is no difference where you actually shoot the BG, always shoot COM or CNS to stop someone. Shooting to stop may result in killing the BG. Shooting someone after they are no longer a threat to kill them will land you in jail for a long time.

It's a matter of words, not actions. When the cops show up and you proudly tell the officer 'yep, I only shoot to kill', you will probably face murder charges. Telling the officer, 'I feared for my life and fired until the threat had stopped' (and then say nothing else, except to your attorney) will lay a groundwork for a justified self defense shooting.

It's not about shooting a BG and making sure that you are only stopping him and not killing him, that he's healthy and will recover fully. It's a matter of perception for the cops, judges and jury.

Shooting to stop sounds a lot better than shooting to kill. And anything that you say will be used against you.

[Valkman]

Vic, in the CCW class in Vegas they told us the opposite about killing the perp - that on average more money is awarded if you kill them. The BS part of this is WHO you shoot - if it's a guy with 10 convictions for robbery you might be ok but if it's the 17 year old neighbor kid with a mask on you will almost certainly pay. What a bunch of crap.

I also felt the same way about a guy 25 feet away with a knife demanding my wallet - screw that the gun is coming out! But in that same class they say that 5 years of litigation and 100k later you'll wish you just gave up the wallet. Makes me think about carrying a "fake wallet" to throw. Don't know where I'd carry it though!

I will say though that I think my situation is different from most - with the arthritis I have I'm already off of work and I won't be running from anyone. That option just won't be there so if they close on me I will shoot.

[Shaughn Leayme]

What we say in the moments after a stressful incident can come back and haunt us and set the tone of the investigation, so while we might be discussing semantics, wouldn't it be better to not have any statements that could color the investigation come up in the first place.

Remember that to a DA, you are just another case, not a person and if while reading thru the reports a statement like " I shot to kill" pops out at him, this might influence the decision to proceed, whereas the statement "I shot to stop him, because I was in fear for my life" gives the impression that you based your actions on a well thought out line of reasoning, and had attempted to difuse the situation and were left no other choice.

It's all about semantics and perception and failing to understand that, will not help you in a court of law.