shtf guns need suggestions


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sethjewell
January 21, 2008, 07:15 PM
Mossberg 500 12 ga
Browning BLR takedown with pistol grip in 7mm mag
ar-15
Ruger Mark 2

The mossberg for close quarters the 7mm mag for sniping and hunting, the ar 15 for combat, and the mark 2 for close quarters when i need quiet. Are these good or bad

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takhtakaal
January 21, 2008, 07:24 PM
Why not think about a different upper for the AR for the purposes of sniping and hunting? If the S has truly hit the F, you may not want to run around with a ton of stuff, or need to.

Here's a nice faq by one of our own: http://demigodllc.com/~zak/firearms/6.8SPC/faq.php

BTW, Mossberg does 500s and 590s.

bannockburn
January 21, 2008, 07:24 PM
Shouldn't the Mossberg be a Model 500, or conversely, the 870 be a Remington? And what makes the Ruger Mk.II so quiet at close quarters?

Navy joe
January 21, 2008, 07:58 PM
I realize that SHTF may overwhelm the search engine; so.....

What are your percieved needs in this situation. SHTF can be Katrina, 2 weeks without power in an ice storm, the super duper bird flu, civil war, crop failure, the Yellowstone volcano, the Mayan TEOTWAWKI, etc. All have different time spans and needs. You may not survive all of them.

So, if it is Red Dawn you ought to be able to obtain any needed weaponry with one service pistol, one spare mag and a plan.

If it is some sort of societal breakdown, what will you do with the guns? Everyone will hear that 7mm from a ways off, maybe they will come take your food. An AR is good for combat as long as your 12 closest friends have them too and practice small unit tactics. 12ga for close quarters? Who is coming close? Why are you still there? In a long term societal breakdown the MKII may be the most useful for hunting.

Don't get me wrong, I own plenty of guns for plenty of reasons other than paper-punching. I just think that people love to think SHTF without thinking it through. I've got 50 acres, have cornered the market on high ground and live in low population density away from major transit corridors. I still have plenty of problems guns won't solve. I can't start "sniping" people when they are 3/4 a mile away(at my mailbox, yes I can see it). Maybe they are the neighbor needing some help in this crisis. I need to know more people, if the right amount of crap had hit a big enough fan 20 armed men could shut my county down and keep everyone out. I don't know those people yet.

You have to define needs. Where will you be going or staying? How long? Will other people come, can they be armed or are they unwelcome? Look up Preacherman on here, he thought he had plenty of stuff for a month until people kept showing up during Katrina. What will the guns do for you? Priority of needs.

-Food, water, shelter. Guns may help obtain or secure that, but without those, don't need guns, you are going to die.

-Place in society. If you are alone, not liked, or percieved to be prepared you are a target. Maybe they have guns too. Bugging out certainly reduces your friends and neighbors unless you are bugging home.

-Fighting. How much and why? Like I said an AR is not a magic wand, it would be helpful to have some friends, more rifles, radios, armor, etc. Especially helpful would be a plan/survival model designed to avoid combat. I.e others may object to you using force of arms to obtain needed supplies. They may politely raise their objections with a superior weapon.

So, to finally answer your question, first Mossberg does not make an 870, Remington does. Both are fine choices. A shotgun is a versatile pick because you can use it for defense, hunt any type of game with it all based on shell selection. Ammo is heavy per round so being mobile is a problem.

AR is a good "combat" weapon, just realize all your other plans have failed if you find yourself using it.

I'd pick something other than the 7mm mag based on excessive noise and sustainment. I use .30 cal of two flavors, local ammo selection should be considered. If your area is covered in 7mm, go for it.

MKII, excellent choice. Put a small scope on it and go hunting. Not so sure about the silent part. If it is truly SHTF remaining society will weed out the unethical and sneaking around in the dark trying to eliminate people is a sure way to become unwelcome. Now if you are just quietly plinking the bad people they might have superior weapons, night vision, land mines, dogs, etc. if they are that bad.

Me, I hope to have the same stuff I have now for SHTF. I use 3 platforms of pistols in 3 calibers. Those are N-frame .45acp, 1911 in .45 ACP and .22lr, and Glock 9mm. I work on all and have spare parts, spare guns and spare ammo. I have my personal rifles of an M-1A and and AR. I have several more ARs, I am building a bolt gun in the .308 of the M-1A. All have spare parts and I work on them. If others show up I have 4 K-31s. They are excellent simple rifles and I have the local ammo supply cornered. I have various flavors of shotguns. I need more stuff, notably a .22 rifle and much more ammo. Spare parts, there are never enoguh spare parts. There may be value in multiple cheap .22 pistols and ammo as trade goods.

Still, all this may never truly mean a thing. The sky may never fall. If it does, I need to work on other things like alternate water, getting my own cattle, knowing more of my neighbors, aquiring more tools so I can use my skills, prepping medical and sanitation needs, getting my food supply in order, developing alternate monetary supplies, and on and on...

Guns are a small part of any breakdown of the status quo picture.

takhtakaal
January 21, 2008, 08:11 PM
Nah, it's that triple-clutch that overwhelms it! ;)

Navy joe
January 21, 2008, 08:11 PM
Sir, I see your triple clutch and raise you one. Sorry folks,the network timed out and I hit refresh.

Or I am a zombie bear incessantly posting and the S has already HTF. You decide. :D

phaed
January 21, 2008, 08:14 PM
AR is good for parts/ammo. i'd recommend a 308 for longer range and hunting, for the ammo. a shotgun is great for HD and hunting birds...get one that'll do both. pistol isn't good for much, except concealment.

DiN_BLiX
January 21, 2008, 08:35 PM
As navy joe says guns are just a small part of a SHTF plan, are you going to bug-out or hunkerdown? Either will carry there own set of risks and challenges, and you dont want TOO many guns carry or feed. If the wifey knows how to shoot, two hang guns and two carbines in a common caliber would be ideal, and maybe a shotty as a "house gun". AR, mini-14, sks, siaga, m1a (scout or socom), keltec su-16, m1 cabine are all goode rifles for the carbine role. The hand guns in my mind shoud be both either 9mm or .40 as these are the most common with 45acp a close second. But what ever you buy should be centered around the plan, not the other way around.

Run&Shoot
January 21, 2008, 08:40 PM
Depending on the scenarios you are concerned about you might be underestimating the need for a centerfire pistol.

1) In a Katrina situation if you have to evacuate on foot you may become a target of bad guys and government agents if you are schlepping along with a rifle slung over your shoulder. Same too if you are just going down the street to check on a friend or some family.

2) Long term economic decay such as FerFAL describes in Argentina results in constant danger, but still not acceptable to walk the streets or drive around with a rifle at the ready.

In both situations it would be a lot more low profile to have one or two pistols you can carry with you at all times. If your funds allow you might consider a couple of identical pistols (the "New York reload" is a second pistol on you) which also gives you ready spares and the ability to arm a trusted friend if need be.

Otherwise, I think you have a generally good approach: Rifle, carbine, shotgun, .22LR. Just need one or two pistols. Also, the 7mm magnum is too much. Way louder than others like .30-06, .308, .270, etc. which are perfectly good hunting/sniping cartridges.

While it would be pretty uncommon to need a sniping capability, I could see it in the Katrina situation in which a few neighbors were trying to secure a couple of blocks of homes from roaming bands of looters. If I was in that situation it would be good to have a few guys on the ground to warn off intruders and handling the initial engagement. But it would be good to have a couple of guys on a roof for better vision and backup as snipers if things go bad. Especially if the looters were using vehicles as a means to break through initial defenses. I wouldn't consider sniping capability as a first priority but not a bad option to at least have in the back pocket.

My revised list would be:
- Rifle: either a battle rifle in .308 like the M1A or FAL; or a bolt action/scoped hunting rifle also in .308 or similar caliber.

- Carbine: for close quarters and small stature family/friends like the AR15 or AK/SKS.

- Pistols: at least one, but preferably two identical pistols such as 1911, Glock, XD, Hi-Power, SIG, Ruger, S&W MP, etc. I think the Glock 19/23 platform as ideal but lots of options here.

- .22 LR rifle or handgun for eliminating pests or hunting small game as quietly and cheaply as possible

- Shotgun (optional) Not esential if you have a rifle and pistol, but not bad as a general purpose supplement.

Acheron
January 22, 2008, 12:36 AM
Mossberg 870 12 ga
Browning BLR takedown with pistol grip in 7mm mag
ar-15
Ruger Mark 2

The mossberg for close quarters the 7mm mag for sniping and hunting, the ar 15 for combat, and the mark 2 for close quarters when i need quiet. Are these good or bad

You've been wathcing too many movies. Way too many movies.

First off, a MkII is surprisingly loud (all .22s are) unless supressed.

Secondly, in a real SHTF situation you'd never lug around four different guns. Takes up too much space and too much weight. What about food and water, medical supplies, spare clothing, ammunition, etc?

You want one long gun that will fill the most roles effectively, plus one pistol. Out of your list the only one that come close is the AR. Sling the the AR over your shoulder and stick the MkII on your hip. Stick with that.

Zundfolge
January 22, 2008, 12:39 AM
Don't forget a wheelbarrow and a can for that .22.

takhtakaal
January 22, 2008, 01:07 AM
Just don't say his name three times, Zundge.

takhtakaal
January 22, 2008, 01:17 AM
Or I am a zombie bear incessantly posting and the S has already HTF. You decide.

Hmm.

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/9988/cc1511pt7.jpg

Mind your stuffing doesn't start leaking out.

Rshooter
January 22, 2008, 01:38 AM
I say dig in, and remember the Alamo......

Really unless you have to move, Katrina, stay put. You start carrying around rifles and someone is going to disarm you one way or the other, think Katrina. "We are only doing it for your own good." Iraqis' are allowed an AK-47 but Americans' do not rate a .22.:banghead:

GRB
January 22, 2008, 01:43 AM
Guns are a small part of any breakdown of the status quo picture. Until you need one.

JWarren
January 22, 2008, 09:36 AM
NavyJoe's post was very good. I'd pay attention to that.


I'll add my perspective to this thread as well.

When I first read the Original Post, my mind initially began to wonder as to what kind of SHTF you are envisioning. All are not created equally. That is not to say that you can't prepare for the worst-- in terms of firearms-- and get through just about anything. But each type of situation will come with its own unique challenges. For the moment, lets just think firearms.

I went through Katrina in semi-rural Louisana. I live in Mississippi, but I was unable to even GET to my house during that time. My planned "3 days" at my Father-in-Law's house turned into 8 weeks without power, communication, or "ordinary" food and easily accessed water. The closest source of fuel was Baton Rouge-- about 2 hours drive away.

Some people think Katrina only hit New Orleans. That was where the news story was-- and to a degree-- still is. Because of that, NO help was coming to us. The Calvary was rushing to New Orleans (if you call 4 days "rushing.") They were NOT rushing to anywhere else. It was over a week and a half before I saw a single "official" vehicle anywhere near us.

And at the same time, people were getting more and more desperate with no access to funds, food, water, fuel, suppies, or information. We had our share of looters. Several businesses were broken into, and we had to defend our property 3 times during that period from thieves in the night.

At any rate....

I was rather ill-prepared for such a thing. I brought with me to my Father-in-Law's house a Romanian full-stock AK-47 along with about 200 rounds of ammunition. I also brought a Glock 19 with 50 rounds of Cor-Bon hollowpoints. My Father-in-Law had a few older sporting firearms-- notedly a Remington 1100 12 gauge and a .38spcl revolver.

We made it through with that.


But here is what I learned from that:


1.) You better have all the ammunition you will need PRIOR to a situation. There will not be any for sell-- EVEN if the stores are open. One of the first things that the government did-- for our safety ;) -- was halt the sell of firearms and ammuntion.

2.) As cool as it may be to envision ourselves walking around like Red Dawn, that will still scare people and draw attention to yourself. Neither are good things. That AK-47 RARELY was seen by anyone. Instead, I carried my Glock 19 under a loose, untucked shirt.

3.) Long guns get in the way and are hard to keep up with. Trust me. The sad reality of a protracted SHTF is that you have WORK to do. It's not sitting in our little bunkers watching the horizon. You will likely spend most of your time cleaning up, repairing your home the best you can, emptying refrigerators and freezers, getting food, getting water, maintaining equipment, obtaining fuel, and a host of other mundane tasks.

You simply cannot lug a long gun around as you do that. More than likely, it will end up propped up against a tree, left inside a doorway, or laying in your vehicle. It doesn't help that much being in any of those places. Plus, if you have uneducated adults or children around, you very well may have a gunshot wound on our hands in quick order.

We often had my neice and nephew over with us-- both young children. When I was working, the AK was closed up in my jeep.

For 99% of the time, it was my handgun that was with me. I could wear it even while doing heavy work such as operating a chainsaw. Make sure you get a GOOD rigid belt and quality holster.


4.) The reality is that you WILL have to leave your "compound." I had to leave numerous times and head to Baton Rouge for fuel or supplies. No matter how well you THINK you have perpared, you forgot something essential-- or ran out of it. Again, that heightens the need for a decent handgun. When I was out for supplies or helping neighbors, I carried the Glock 19-- and kept the AK-47 in the jeep.


5.) On the topic of "leaving your compound." Do you live in a larger city? Do you live in an apartment/condo? Those DO matter. What are your reasonable chances of having to go into a "shelter?" Do you think they will allow you do bring your $1,000 AR in? Do you think you will ever see it again once it gets confiscated? If a shelter is potentially in your future, a concealable handgun is more a friend to you than any long gun.


Does it seem that I am saying that a handgun will get you through any SHTF? It certainly seems so. But I am not. I am saying that most people forget the value of a handgun. They go get tons of long guns and spend little or no time considering the firearm that will be with you 99% of the time-- and a FAR greater percentage than any long gun will be on you. A handgun will be your most used firearm in a SHTF.


Now, that said. Lets talk about long guns.

We spend WAY too much time trying to figure out what the "best" long gun for a SHTF is. Likely, most any will do. My personal belief is that you need to have one that is:

1. Adequate stopping power

2. Durable

3. Fairly accurate

4. Easily serviced and maintained

5. Adequate ammunition capacity

6. Adequate range

7. In an more easily obtained caliber for your area

8. One that you have spare parts for if something breaks (i.e. spare extractors for AR's)

9. Can use optics AND iron sights

10. One you have become VERY familar with in terms of use, expectations, and limitations.


This criteria encompasses MANY firearms.

I personally prefer "military" style rifles for this purpose. They are typically derived from battle-proven and reliable designs. They are typically easier to maintain, service, and repair. They are typically chambered in common calibers.

I don't worry myself on the caliber debate so much. In terms of hunting, a LOT of calibers will take the game you would want to take. I've read dozens of threads saying that the AR is underpowered and they wouldn't have one. Well, realistically, I have seen DOZENS of people who routinely take Southeastern Whitetail with a 62 grain .223. It can do in a pinch.

Someone once told me regarding a .22 rimfire:

"A guy shot with a .22lr isn't going to run down the street, hold up a liquor store, rape 3 women, and rob a bank. They are going to RUN. Then they are going to bleed. Then they may die.. slowly and painfully."

I kinda take that view on calibers. Regardless of your preference, it will likey do what you want it to do if you have an understanding of the capabilities and limitations of the caliber.


But will the caliber you want be prohibitively expensive to stockpile ammuition for? Will it be hard to come by when you can buy or trade for it?

There are two schools of thought on this.

An odd caliber may be hard to get resupplies for since the stores may not stock much of it, or there may be fewer people who you can trade with....

but....

If you have a caliber that is very common for your area, that ALSO means that there are a LOT of other people that will be competing for you in the marketplace for those rounds. I promise you that your neighbors do not have enough ammuniton.

It is better to stock your own supply-- and stack it deep. For that, you need to have a caliber that is not prohibitively expensive to do so. This is one reason I have not gotten a rifle in 6.8 Remington SPC yet. I like the round, but I just can't feel good about the cost of stockpiling it.

I am feeling the same way about the OP mentioning 7mm mag.




OK.... shotguns.

I would simply say reliable. I prefer 12 gauge. Like rifles, stockpile your ammuniton. Don't bother with slugs. That pulls double duty with your rifles likely. Instead, get buckshot for HD use, but get a LOT more 6 or 7 shot. That is what makes the shotgun do something a highpowered rifle can't do.

One thing left out of the OP was probably one of the most handy rifles. A long gun in 22 long rifle. This is the one that you can stockpile TONS of ammunition for. This is a perfect small game caliber. This is a perfect caliber for practicing marksmanship skills.




Now, I say again... Different SHTF's are different. In a Katrina-like situation, you will likely not be hunting for your food. I never did. But again, it is better to prepare for a worst-case situation than not. Prepared for the end of the world as we know it puts you in a better positon for a protracted period of temporary disruption-- even if it seems to be overkill.


Again, this post only focuses on firearms-- probably the least important aspect of a SHTF in terms of percentage time you will actually NEED the tool. I am not going to go into the other non-firearms concerns on this post. But I STRONGLY suggest that anyone truly interested in SHTF do some research and give some thought to the other CRITICAL aspects of preparation. You can do a search here and find a lot of information. I've covered a lot of it in my other posts-- as have others here.


So...


My analysis of the picks of the Original Poster:


Mossberg 870 12 ga

As mentioned earlier, its going to be a Remington 870 or a Mossberg 500/590. But either are good choices.


Browning BLR takedown with pistol grip in 7mm mag

This has me scratching my head.

Why a pistol grip? An M1A doesn't have one, and is an excellent rifle to get the job done.

Why a takedown? That is a LOT of expense and complication.

Why 7mm mag? May be a tough caliber to reliably get, and may be very expensive to stockpile.

Why a Browning BLR? My experience with semi-auto sporting rifles are that they are not nearly as durable as a military one. It may be hard to work on, get spare parts, and it has not proven itself--if it is the one I am thinking it is.

This rifle more closely fits what you would want a MBR (Main Battle Rifle) to do. In that role, I would more likely consider:

FAL (7.62 NATO) .308 Winchester
M1A (7.62 NATO) .308 Winchester
Saiga 308 (7.62 NATO) .308 Winchester
AR-10 (7.62 NATO) .308 Winchester
G3 (7.62 NATO) .308 Winchester

7.62 NATO .308 Winchester will take down pretty much any mid-sized game you would need.



ar-15

Nothing wrong with an AR. Get spare parts.

Ruger Mark 2

I like a Ruger Mk II. But if I was looking for a 22 long rifle, I think I'd look for a long gun before a handgun. You can get a marlin at Walmart for 80 bucks. Dont' overlook that.



The mossberg for close quarters

In close quarters, what you have on hand is what you will use. Close means you have already screwed up. I wouldn't go looking for a Mossberg if I already had an AR in my hand. But a shotgun is good to have.

the 7mm mag for sniping and hunting

Who are we sniping? And why? If someone is far enough away to need a long-range rifle, you are not in danger.

Where are we hunting that we need a magnum? A .308. 30-06, .270, ect. will do the job as well. In a pinch, that .223 would do it, too.

the ar 15 for combat

OK... but others would do as well. I would look for opportunities for firearms that can pull "double duty" as both combat AND hunting. Perhaps an M1A that will wipe the need for a Browning AND an AR. Spend the difference on ammuntion. At the same time, I have rifles that do the same thing, too.

and the mark 2 for close quarters when i need quiet.

This sounds like James Bond movie assassanations. Who exactly are we assassinating again?

In the movies, the "quiet" of the Ruger Mk II is the suppressor that is on the handgun. I think you may be disappointed with the noise without one. True, a 22 long rifle round is quiter than a high powered rifle, but it is not so quiet that we can perform what you are describing.


Are these good or bad

You came here asking our opinion, and I'll give it. With no disrespect intended, I think what you are envisioning you will be doing is not realistic. I don't think you have thought out the situation in much detail.

While I applaude you for starting to consider things, I highly encourage you to do more research and read more from those who have been through various situations. I would encourage you to give a through analysis of the needs you may have in your particular area, and what realistic scenerios you may face. Then go read and research some more.


-- John

Matt-J2
January 22, 2008, 10:07 AM
You've been wathcing too many movies. Way too many movies.

Don't forget the video games! The OP is 13, after all, according to a post in another thread.

To sethjewell: Read the posts by JWarren, Navy Joe and others. Then go consult with your folks on what sort of plan(s) are in place for shtf-type scenarios. I'd stick with natural disaster types, zombie invasions won't get you the same sort of responses. ;) After all, I don't think you'll be doing much without them in those situations.

H2O MAN
January 22, 2008, 10:43 AM
JWarren:
I would look for opportunities for firearms that can pull "double duty" as both combat AND hunting.
Perhaps an M1A that will wipe the need for a Browning AND an AR.

Good idea.

My M14s are my primary general purpose SHTF rifles, followed by my M4
type ARs, a nice HK/Benelli 12 gauge. All of them are high capacity military
style weapons with pistol grip stocks :)

cornman
January 22, 2008, 12:04 PM
Forget the guns and get to know your community. The reason history repeats itself is that we teach the next generation the same fears and ignorance over and over again. When SHTF get together with your neighbors and STOP all this insanity about guns.

takhtakaal
January 22, 2008, 12:05 PM
The OP is 13, after all, according to a post in another thread.

Did you ever participate in a thread, and get to the end of it, and come to the conclusion that it was mostly a waste?

I'm willing to hold an intelligent conversation, or perhaps even a slightly addled one, depending upon my interlocutor, but I begin to get a bit weary of having serious ones with people who may have watched "I am Legend" and then found themselves playing potentially harmful games with airsoft rifles until called in for supper.

FWIW, I think some posters need big, obvious, loud training wheels or something.

JWarren
January 22, 2008, 03:18 PM
Did you ever participate in a thread, and get to the end of it, and come to the conclusion that it was mostly a waste?


Nah... let's not think of it that way.

Instead, let's consider that we have a young person really thinking about the fact that things may not always turn out OK. According to the other thread, he already has a Ruger Mk II. That tells me that he is likely part of a family with a shooting tradition. That's a good start. I got my first EBR when I was only 2 years older than he is.

Let's instead look at it from an angle that we are able to start the education of one gentleman rather young.


And whatever the rationale of the OP, chances are that is isn't the same now. That is due to the discussion here. Let's not forget the people that will find this thread on Searches both here and on Search Engines. A search engine on a topic was how I discovered THR.


At any rate, there it is.


-- John

JShirley
January 22, 2008, 04:36 PM
I hate "SHTF" discussions. They usually devolve (sometimes just plain start) into fantasy land.

That said, there's some darn good thoughts here. To recap a few good ones:

Food and water is good. Have a lot.
Be able to move, but understand that usually staying put is a better choice (could be different for urban environs?).
Just a few really useful firearms are probably more important than an armory. I know what walking with a heavy load is like. I like food and drink water fairly frequently, so I understand that each additional firearm is less food, water, and shelter.

Anyway, my "SHTF" piece- which I think I will forever after refer to as "my disaster rifle"- is a sporterized 1903. I have others. All could work, more or less successfully depending on things like ammo availability and the size of what I might need to shoot. Even the WASR-2 in the closet would probably work okay here in Georgia, where the biggest thing I might ever shoot would be a small bear or a big hog. In other places with larger animals, it wouldn't be a good choice at all.

Anyway, good preparation will help see you through the hard times we all encounter, even without cloned zombie vampire bears with blue helmets and whatnot.

John

sethjewell
January 22, 2008, 05:08 PM
Okay to clarify things the BLR is a lever action, I want the 7mm mag because it has a flatter trajectory than a .308 . The pistol grip is in a full stock for the ones that didn't no. The mark 2 is easier to churn out a suppresor for and quiter than a suppressed glock. And I like a .22. As for the people that say i'll be carrying too much well i want to carry all of these I live in Ga and will be up in the mountains. I was also thinking of a model 700 TI to replace the BLR

JWarren
January 22, 2008, 05:34 PM
seth, I see you are online. Perhaps this would be a good time to give us an idea of your situation and what you would anticipate preparing for.

I am still up in the air on a couple of things:

Okay to clarify things the BLR is a lever action

OK.. not the one I was thinking about. I'd go bolt action over lever action. When was the last time you saw a lever-action "sniper" rifle? The bolt action is an excellent and robust platform for accuracy and rigidity.

The pistol grip is in a full stock for the ones that didn't no

Ahh... a thumbhole stock. OK. I don't prefer them due to what I percieve as a more fragile stock, but to each their own.

The mark 2 is easier to churn out a suppresor for

How do you figure?

and quiter than a suppressed glock.

I am still trying to understand what you envision needing a suppressor for-- especially a suppressed handgun. Care to explain?


Seriously seth, I think that it would be a good idea to discuss some of your reasoning. As it is, a number of people are assuming that you are being influenced heavily by recent movies and video games. That may well be the case. However, I'd hope that this could lead to a productive thread.

But SHTF isn't a Halo fantasy. At one point, I would have traded my AK-47 for a can of Off! Bug Spray and one cool night of sleep.

I could ask that you ask yourself what is necessary verses what is cool or neat. I am thinking your priorities may be a bit off keel.

For instance... perhaps 7mm mag does shoot flatter than 308. Yet our snipers are making 1,000 meter shots with it. Flatter means squat. What you zero in on and how well you understand the ballistics of your rifle and caliber are what matter. Does shooting a tad flatter justify only having the funds to get 1/4 the ammunition-- especially when we are talking about a time where you may not be able to get more? It would not be long before you are hammering that 7mm mag into a pointy stick.

Help us out here, seth.




-- John

takhtakaal
January 22, 2008, 05:52 PM
I am still trying to understand what you envision needing a suppressor for-- especially a suppressed handgun. Care to explain?

I imagine he'll be along to explain himself, but I think in SHTF he's looking to reduce his footprint, as it were. Suppressed semiauto weapons are still pretty loud without some sort of a buffer rig on the metal to metal bits.

M4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNwecxMlvog

.22: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3i_SYlgHiUs

JWarren
January 22, 2008, 05:57 PM
takhtakaal,

I suspect that you are correct. The point I was trying to impress upon him is that then only time I could see the need for supressed firearms during a SHTF similar to the one I went through would be if you were doing something that you shouldn't be-- like "raiding."

While I could see the need for a supressed hunting firearm in a VERY protracted SHTF-- such as the end of the world, I'd be looking for a suppressed rifle over a suppressed handgun.

Don't get me wrong. A supressor may be in my future-- but I recognize it as a toy more than an essential part of my planning. I primarily want one to save the last remaining bit of my hearing from years of shooting.


-- John

H2O MAN
January 22, 2008, 06:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWarren
I am still trying to understand what you envision needing a suppressor for-- especially a suppressed handgun. Care to explain?

I imagine he'll be along to explain himself, but I think in SHTF he's looking to reduce his footprint, as it were.
Suppressed semiauto weapons are still pretty loud without some sort of a buffer rig on the metal to metal bits.

M4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNwecxMlvog

.22: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3i_SYlgHiUs

MK14: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1289448791930127574&q=mk14+mod+0

Navy joe
January 22, 2008, 06:47 PM
I will make one point in favor of the BLR. It is a box mag. lever action in calibers you don't normally get levers in. Someone i think highly of owns one in .308. The reason is that it is an ubiquitous caliber, may be found in police or military stocks and the rifle itself is very PC. Better perception than used in a shooting over a black gun, less likely to go in the early rounds of confiscations.

That said, 7mm ??? Churn out a supressor? As someone with a life of metalwork and access to machine tools; let me say this. Sure, it is not that complicated. Just be sure the S knocked over all the government when it hit TF, otherwise you speak of churning out a felony.

Where will you go in the mountains of GA? Been there, lots of people down there. I hope you know the people where you go and have cause to be where you end up. Otherwise somebody else's SHTF gun cache will be bigger.

I suspect carrying 2 rifles, a shotgun, and a pistol may get old quick. Especially if you carry anything you actually need. I hunt sometimes with my match M-1A. The Krieger barrel is heavy, the McMillan stock solid, solid fiberglass. Damn gun weighs 12+ pounds. It gets old. I hunt overnight with a Mil-surp, a sidearm, 1 big knife, and all my stuff in a big Camel-bak. Only about 35 lbs. with both guns, it gets old. I could sustain that level for a long time. I could hump about 80-100 lbs for a day, done that. It gets old. So "want to carry these" ought to turn into "go carry these for a week as a test." If I was out for a long time and getting worn down with my aforementioned hunting rig I'd probably cache my Glock and its spare ammo somewhere for later before I cast off my Khukri. The Glock is good for one thing, that being more two-legged predators than a 6-shot detachable mag, straight pull rifle in .30 cal can dispatch. I can do all kinds of stuff with a knife. That's why I have about 4 when I am out for a long time. I suspect you wander the woods for a week and those long guns would be leaning on a tree somewhere. If I am ever so unlucky as to have to leave my abode with more than one long gun the dog is screwed. It's called a travois and the mutt is hauling his food and my guns. :D Walking sucks.

JWarren
January 22, 2008, 06:53 PM
Only about 35 lbs. with both guns, it gets old.

Haha... Navy Joe...

A thought occured to me last June:

Any time people prepare a "Bug Out" kit, they need to pack a backpack to the same weight and go on vactation to Disney World in Orlando during the summer.

I was the "camel" for my wife and mother during our trip to DW for THREE weeks this summer. I had a backpack with all sorts of useless items. Seriously, my feet STILL have not completely recovered. DW, Bugout Bag, and Summer is the Acid Test of what you are REALLY willing to carry around with you.

It stops seeming like "A Small World" on Day 3 of walking.

And on a VERY unrelated note, anyone who has been to EPCOT... have you noticed that the USA exhibit is perfectly between the Germany Exhibit and the France Exhibit? Makes you think....

-- John

7-08WIN70
January 22, 2008, 07:36 PM
being closer to your age than most of the people that responded i can tell you that 2 or 3 rounds from a 7mm remington magnum isnt fun at all so your first choice "sniper rifle" is way overpowered. i think the 30-06 or .308 would be better, most mom and pop stores around the country will have a box of dusty remington core-lokt's. as for the silent .22 they are suprisingly not. the colt woodsman i went out back with got square with me by assulting my ears when i refused ear protection mocking the .22lr. if you are worried about "needing quiet" for sentry dispach or whatever you ment by that i'd be looking more in the range of a m249 saws if you are worried about rambo gunfights. if you can sneek up on someone you could also just run
the .22 would be a valuable tool, agreed. the close range shotgun sholud be dead weight do not let somthing you need to engage get close. the ar15 is a wonderful choice but i think mabe an ak 47 clone may be better the 7.62x39mm has almost 2x the kinetic energy and the thing is virtually indestrucstble and the surp ammo is easy to find. the acuracy isnt as good but isn't supposed to be a longrange tack driver. a pistol of a compact design would probably be of great utility for personal protection because walking about looking like rambo armed to the teeth would draw alot of attention somthing you do not want while doing mabe risky thing such as scavenging for food and supplys. i'm thinking a snub revolver of .38 special +p fame because of the reliability of a revolver and the concealibility of a snubby. lg's couldnt hurt either.

my choices would be:
a win model 70 with a syn stock in 30-06
an ak47 clone
kimber tac. ult 2 in .45 acp
a rem nylon 66 .22lr

ROMAK IV
January 22, 2008, 08:10 PM
One word, "Saiga".

Saiga 12,
Saiga 308,
1911.

If it is truely SHTF, you aren't to worry about overpenetration and engaging in under 200 yards. Sniper grade rifles are great for sniping but not so good for SHTF, and especially not in 7mm. If perhaps you reload and fire the rifle regularly, but otherwise, save it for hunting and such. Still, if you don't want a Saiga 308 for your long range gun, a K-31 and a good supply of 7.5 Swiss. There is a scope mount available for the K-31 now. It is important, if you are going to buy any type of firearm for emergencies, to have adequate ammunition supplies. As for the Saiga 12, is is simply the best type of shotgun for the job. At $450, it isn't expensive, and with ten round magazines, it remains the shotgun with the greatest firepower.

MarshallDodge
January 22, 2008, 08:14 PM
We live out in the country so I am planning on staying put. If I do have to move my choices would be a rifle that the ammo was light. An AR15 in 223 would fit this bill. I would carry a handgun but I keep debating on whether it will be a 45 or 22 caliber.

I agree with JWarren. Fill a backpack with your goods or something like water to simulate it. Take a day hike. Up here we start at 4000 feet and go up from there. I have carried gear up the mountains and it will make a man out of you real quick. My first priority would be water and food. A gun wouldn't do much good if you are dehydrated.

You need a plan and you need to test it to make sure it will work for you.

aloharover
January 22, 2008, 08:27 PM
Some thing you can use and use well. Something that fits and points naturally.
Multiple guns with multiple calibers is a logistic nightmare.
Think simple.
What can you carry on you. Plan for a single long gun and a single handgun, maybe a pair. If you have more cool, but concentrate on your core items. Have plenty of spare parts and know how to rebuild them.
Now if spare parts to you means having 6 identicle rifles and pistols cool. But back to my "can you carry it all" point. Know what parts are the most critical to the functioning of the weapon and which ones fail the most often.

aloharover
January 22, 2008, 08:30 PM
Fill a backpack with your goods or something like water to simulate it.

Excellent!!
When my CO was getting ready for SFAS he started hiking with a 5-gal can in his ruck. He worked up to 10 miles a day with two 2-five gal cans every other day with a 25 milers on the weekend.

kimberfan
January 22, 2008, 09:43 PM
Ok heres my 2 cents. Get a M1A it can do both the jobs of the BAR and AR-15 in one rifle, For the shotgun i would get a Mossberg 930spx, For a handgun a 1911 with a .22 conversion kit and a small .22 rifle as well.

Now keep in mind thats for long term.

doc2rn
January 22, 2008, 10:21 PM
Water bottle 2qt with filtration system, .22 rifle, fishing pole, case of MREs, change of clothes, and great sleeping system will keep you going a long time.

sachmo
January 22, 2008, 10:48 PM
Well J Warren I think you hit the nail on the head. Aint gonna be engaging targets at 1K+ yards, or sneaking around with a silenced .22 MK11 doing God knows what. The advice you gave about an easy carry handgun on your person jives with what I have read about someone who went through a similar experience in, I think Argentina. He said that in day to day activities its pretty hard to walk around with a FAL slung over your shoulder but the concealed hand gun is always present

Of course the question always is - what type of a SHTF scenario are we talking about here? Is it the classic end of the world Zombie infested hell of the SCIFI, or much more likely a NOLA, Kenya. or Kosovo situation in which the Federal government collapses and the local LEO's take off or become part of the problem as in NOLA.

The fact of the matter is you are going to be on your own or part of the local community or family depending on were you live. To me a true SHTF weapon is best exemplified by the late Col Jeff Coopers scout rifle concept. A light weight accurate bolt action rifle , with a detachable box magazine, internal bi pod, and an 18 to 20 inch barrel in .308. You can defend yourself and hunt with such a weapon. However if I were living in the city and not likely to be hunting for a living it would hard to beat a good AR or AK. Really I could get along just fine with a Win 94 carbine

I think the real problem with these discussions is that we tend to gravitate towards military type weapons when many others will do. This isn't Iwo Jima so I will leave my Garands at home. In view of the fact that I live in the city my SHTF guns will be my customized Colt 1911 and either my 16 inch barreled Bushy or my Arsenal 106. Not sure what the wife would carry a Python is a little big so I think she would lean towards a Colt New Frontier in .22 mag. Its easy to conceal, packs a punch but is easy and not intimidating to shoot. If not that then a short barreled .22 MK 11 without silencer.

BTW if you are using a Knife to survive with as opposed to playing Rambo a 5 to 6 inch blade of good steel does just fine. In fact a big honkin knife just gets in the way. I have seen a lot of Elk gutted and skinned with a 3.5 inch or so folder although I prefer something a couple of inches larger.

Neo-Luddite
January 22, 2008, 11:23 PM
Yes, a .22 rifle is needed.

Navy joe
January 23, 2008, 12:04 AM
Doc, can I get a nice tarp, some 550 cord and something to make fire with? Heck with the MREs, too heavy. No change of clothes needed, 4 changes of socks will do. Wear the extra layers.

Sachmo, you can skin a deer with a SAK, I carry a lockback one for just that. I carry a clip point fixed blade skinner just because I'm fond of it. I carry a Douk to shave with. I carry a USMC kit knife in case I lose the SAK. Okay, I admit I like knives. They get heavy too. Now a Khukri, heck with skinning an elk, you can build a house! :D Seriously, part of multiple knives is to be able to leave them somewhere if out in the woods alone and come back later, replace damaged ones, or equip other persons. Even in everyday life someone asks "Does anyone have a knife?" several times daily. Never have too many.

Now as far as carrying all these guns we've discussed, all the better if you have transportation. Maybe you have some guns and other stuff at points B, C, & D. Maybe B & C are family's homes, maybe nobody but you knows D. Maybe some of the other kit is in your everyday car. I am still working on my plan, but the ideal is in stages. You will face the situation with what you have on you. You should have a useful knife, decent clothing, maybe a gun, things to make fire. If you get to your car you ought to have enough stuff to live alone for a few days. If your car gets you home you have more stuff. If home is untenable maybe you can get in a bigger vehicle with more stuff and move to one of those other points. Where you have stuff!

I just think OP has a gun so all SHTF is looking like something to shoot. If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a.......

goon
January 23, 2008, 12:41 AM
I say dig in, and remember the Alamo......


IIRC the guys at the alamo did dig in. It didn't go so well for them.



Personally, I'd say three is a good number. Whatever centerfire handgun you're comfortable with, whatever .22LR you like, and whatever centerfire rifle you like. From what I've read of FerFal's posts, a midsized handgun or a small CCW sized handgun might be more useful than anything else you can spend your money on.

I was raised with guns. Some would say I was raised on guns. This has influenced my decisons on the whole "SHTF" concept but lately I have been thinking that after you have your essential bases covered you really need to consider other things over more guns.

What kind of shape are you in? Need any dental work? Better get that taken care of now.
How many blankets you got? Got a tent or some kind of shelter? Sleeping bag? Warm clothes? Clothes that will keep you dry? Lots of dry socks and a good pair of boots? How many ways do you have to build a fire and how good at building one are you? How often do you practice it? All of those things are more likely to keep you alive than guns and a lack of them are more likely to get you dead than not having an M1A.
How much food you got? Got water? Without water you got a slow and agonizing death. Without food you have a slower and just as agonizing death. Both of those are just as important as being able to send bullets at a threat.

My "minimal" battery is one of each of the three I mentioned. Exact flavor doesn't really matter - pick what you like best.
If your BLR and your Ruger MKII are what you like best I'd say go for it. I would lose the shotgun though. They are great for HD type work and very versatile but inefficient for some jobs. It takes an ounce of lead from a 12 gauge to kill a squirrel - for the same job a .22LR uses 40 grains of lead. For the weight of two 12 gauge shotshells you could carry about 50 rounds of .22LR.
To me that is a no brainer.
Don't get me wrong; I love them. Shotguns are well known fight stoppers and given the choice I love having one around. But if I had to grab what I had and go with it, the shotgun is out. Ammo is just too heavy and range is limited. For the weight I'd rather carry a good rifle instead.
If you really could only afford one I'd suggest a 10/22 with some reliable 25 round magazines and a couple ammo cans of hot .22 ammo. In the hands of a practiced marksman a .22 can make life very miserable for an attacker out to around 150 yards (I have hit with them out about that far) and with something like a CCI minimag it will punch holes right through your average car door. With 25 rounds of that on tap you have a handy little rifle that will do a lot of jobs adequately. Ammo is still cheaper for them than anything else and way more versatile. You can still drop a deer with .22 but if you shoot a squirrel with a .308 you'll lose a lot of meat.
Some will disagree with that and that is OK.
The last thing I'll say about that is that I had a great uncle who made it through the depression by poaching deer to feed his family and others. He used a .22 LR extensively and was known as one of the best marksmen around. One summer he shot 101 deer - 99 between the eyes. He used one round per deer because ammo was precious. If you fired a round you needed to bring meat home.

As for your exact choices, I'd say if that's what you have and you're comfortable with them they'd work fine. Fill an ammo can for each of them. Maybe two for the .22.
Then go buy some rice and blankets.

Cosmoline
January 23, 2008, 12:48 AM
pistol isn't good for much, except concealment.

Or as someone put it during a REAL episode of SHTF: "Know that the pistol has no value, we practically don't use it. We need grenades, rifles, machine guns, and explosives."
Mordechai Anielewicz, April 23, 1943 WARSAW GHETTO

goon
January 23, 2008, 12:55 AM
Cosmoline - that definitely did qualify as SHTF. No doubt about it.
But I think the kind of SHTF we are more likely to see would positively require a handgun. If you still have "law" to deal with you may not be able to just go around armed with a rifle. Sure, I'd support your right to carry your AK or AR around to defend yourself and not think anything of it.
Law enforcement may not agree with that point of view (then again, some of the better ones would probably welcome the support). Still, there are times when you probably couldn't carry a rifle. But you can carry even a service sized 9mm or .45 with just a loose dark colored T-shirt.
I think handguns are so important that to consider yourself really prepared you should have two.

But I also think that comes after socks, blankets, and water.

kimberfan
January 23, 2008, 01:54 AM
if its a "run to the hills" setup your after a AR with a .22 conversion kit and a 1911 with a .22 conversion kit will get you by, but in the long term you gonna need ALOT more then that.

Matt-J2
January 23, 2008, 02:04 AM
So long as we're talking preparation beforehand, I rank 'up-to-date tetanus immunization' pretty highly.
Along those lines, is a good pair of boots. Sometimes, you can't see what you're walking through. Saw a lot of barefoot folks on the news after Katrina. A lot of them weren't doing so well because of it.


Just sayin, sometimes, the littlest things can turn out to be huge after all.

ArchAngelCD
January 23, 2008, 02:58 AM
In the unlikely event S actually hits the fan I would rely upon my AK-47, my 4" M686 and a good stiff hunting knife. Anything more would be unrealistic.

BTW, it that fan does get hit I would suggest you try and get to the nearest Military Base or Army Reserve Post and let them outfit you to lend a hand. :uhoh:

takhtakaal
January 23, 2008, 03:02 AM
AACD makes a good point, that some have also made, and that some refuse to acknowledge.

There's a point at which you'll no longer have the ability, for one reason or another, to depend upon wheels under your butt. You'll have to make hard and fast decisions about what to keep and what to toss, because that arsenal you've amassed ain't gonna fit in no freakin' wheelbarrow, and it ain't gonna all go over your shoulders.

Knife, pistol, rifle. It isn't an accident that most soldiers and marines aren't issued multiples, now is it?

Anonymous Coward
January 23, 2008, 10:34 AM
These are all good answers, although I think the question is rather silly.

However, it's a fun game to play. Choose a Glock over an XD because you can buy your own spare parts, get conversion barrels so you can load any odd caliber into your weapon, buy up a whole bunch of milsurp rifles so you can arm your neighbors, Pick a 357 over a 38 so you can use both calibers...all of which I have not done. Surviving tough times requires more than a bunch of weapons, unless your plan is to take what you need from the rest of us. I agree with the poster who says "Get to know your neighbors."

My two cents: My SHTF armory isn't dramatically different from my home defense setup. I'm not going to be taking shots at anybody who's not on my property. If it's impossible to dial 911, I'd want to rely on a semi-automatic rifle rather than anything else.

If I was getting ready for the end of the world, I'd stock up on tens of thousands of rounds of 22 rimfire. And maybe buy a couple of nice air rifles, as well. Most of the things you'd be shooting would be unaggressive consumables, and after the big game is gone, you'd need all the rats you could find.

> Fake edit: Save ammo, learn to trap rats.

Lonestar.45
January 23, 2008, 10:41 AM
A Glock 19 and a quality AR15.

Titan6
January 23, 2008, 11:32 AM
Everybody here has an AK-47. And the S has most certainly hit the fan.



Of course the good guys all have ARs... but they also have access to maintenance resources.

H2O MAN
January 23, 2008, 11:44 AM
The more I consider a SHTF senario the more I like my 16" AR (Colt LE6920), my AK (Type 56S-1 UF) and my Glock (G21).
My M14s are what I choose over everything else especially if I can only have one long gun :evil:

casio02478
January 23, 2008, 01:05 PM
For food gathering you might want to look into rifle/shotgun over and under combo guns, because when I go rabbit hunting I see alot of deer and when I go deer hunting I see a lot of rabbits. Plus they are simple gun with few parts to break.

KBintheSLC
January 23, 2008, 02:44 PM
I have to agree with JWarren's post that a good handgun will be your best friend in an urban meltdown. I only see one handgun on the list... the MKII. I would recommend a good 9mm semi to put on your belt.
Out in the rural areas, I would have nothing less than my AK.
Besides that, stock plenty of ammo... put a box or two in your car. You may not even be able to make it to your home in a very bad situation.

When the S really does HTF, I would take good luck over skills and preparation any day.

Koos Custodiet
January 23, 2008, 03:07 PM
I would recommend a good 9mm semi

9mm? On the 23rd of Jan (http://www.frfrogspad.com/jmb.htm )?

Geeeeeees!

</shytestir> :-)

Run&Shoot
January 23, 2008, 06:20 PM
Reviewing many good posts here it seems that you need consider which combinations of conditions you are prepping for:

Is it relatively short term (1 - 8 weeks) local disaster like Katrina? Or a long term social-economic breakdown (meltdown) like Argentina? Or worse, a permanent total breakdown of civil society and law such as the Warsaw ghettos, Rawles' "Patriots, etc.?

Will you be staying put or bugging out? Do you have offsite caches set up either for last ditch retreat from the house, or for resupply enroute?

My thoughts from the thread so far:

First, I am not even talking about all the non-firearms preps necessary because this is a firearms forum. Suffice it to say that relationships, trust, food, medical, water, shelter, barter, and skills are top priorities. Guns protect but will not provide a living in most cases (unless you hire out as security or something).

Most likely that even in a SHTF situation we still have civil law intact. Maybe not responding or proactive, but you still want to obey the written gun laws as much as possible to avoid later consequences. Even though you will be at home most of the time, you are likely to need to travel for work or to bug out temporarily.

In this case it would be ideal to be armed with firearms that are versatile and can be concealed on your person or overnight backpack. A centerfire pistol with a .22LR conversion would be good. Like a 1911 or Glock. A compact carbine that can be taken down would also be good. Like and AK, AR15, M1 Carbine. A brick of .22 is reasonable weight and gives you 500 rounds for pests, and even self defense in a pinch. These two weapons are also useful for home defense so I would rank a pistol and carbine as top priorities.

Since you will probably be at home at some point during the most likely scenarios, then it makes sense to prep for that as well. You would already have a pistol and carbine from the above discussion. What more would you want? Technically I don;t think you need anything more, so I would be looking at additional copies of those for family or friends that you may be consolidating resources and skills with. A shotgun is OK, but I would rather have a second or third pistol and carbine than a shotgun.

A completely different scenario is of total societal breakdown which is highly unlikely in the US, but has happened repeatedly in history. In this case you are talking about the possibility of all out hostilities and no friendly civil law. In this case you are talking more along the lines of the novel "Patriots" and Boston T. Party's "Gun Bible".

Then you want battle weapons. The rifle is paramount and you want something built for the next generation not just the next year. Boston recommends the battle rifle such as the M1A, FAL, HK91 or even SR-10/AR10 because it can do pretty much what the carbine does, but also has the capability to reach out further. However, if you prefer the AR15 or AK then I think you well armed, too.

The shotgun would play little role except for specialized purposes. The pistol is still an important part of daily life in this worst case scenario. It is just too cumbersome to always have your rifle in your hands. You have work to do to provide for your self and family. You have to travel eventually.

In summary, the most versatile and effective battery of arms would be at a minimum a centerfire pistol and a carbine. The next addition would be a .22LR conversion for this pistol or carbine. After those it would be best to get some duplicates of both for home defense, spare parts and arming other associates.

After all that then it would be wise to prep for the absolute worst case with service rifles because sooner or later it is bound to occur. Just look at history. Eventually practically every society peaks and then collapses and the collapse usually is pretty violent through chaos or oppression. You may not ever need to use your service rifle for "battle", but some generation later on is likely to do so. Will they have the arms if a prior generation did not stock up for them?

Buying an M1A now may not bee needed in your life time, and it may be obsolete 100 years from now when it is needed. But if you don't pass on the mindset of prepping for this eventuality, and don't pass on the skills of using a service rifle, then how will that generation in 100-200 years ever have a chance at being prepared? So buying and using a service rifle is more about building the culture and mindset of preparation and self defense. And it helps ensure we have real skin in the game when gun laws come up that could erode the ability of future generations to be reasonably armed for such future catastrophe.

It seems far out to imagine a time when a service rifle would be needed for survival (and no guarantee at that),, but history is replete with examples of populations not able to imagine the same scenario moments before it crashed in on them.

TexasRifleman
January 23, 2008, 06:23 PM
but history is replete with examples of populations not able to imagine the same scenario moments before it crashed in on them.

Funny you say that. I am reading Churchills' "History of the English Speaking Peoples" and it seems like every 75-100 years exactly what you describe takes place. From about 300BC til present time there's some crisis or another about every century.

It got me to thinking about that, and the fact that here in this country we're about 140 years or so since the last one.

The Deer Hunter
January 23, 2008, 06:46 PM
Or as someone put it during a REAL episode of SHTF: "Know that the pistol has no value, we practically don't use it. We need grenades, rifles, machine guns, and explosives."
Mordechai Anielewicz, April 23, 1943 WARSAW GHETTO

I guess that would be an extreme scenario but for the most part a handgun would be very useful. Look at Katrina, for example. Your city is pretty much destroyed but you can't just leave it the way it is. There is work that has to be done- getting water, repairing your house, removing obstacles in roads to facilitate transportation, that sorta stuff. Physical labor can be a pain but so can physical labor with a 9 lb. stick slung across your back.

Now this is based on the fact that if your in a situation where you might need to defend yourself, you need your gun handy. If you have to lay your SKS across your truck or if you have to lean it up against a light post someone could possibly sneak up on you and attack your or even use your own weapon against you.

To the original poster; Dude you don't need 4 guns (if you can even carry all of them). I'm confident that in the case of, well, any event that I would need a gun, my 870 can do it. I'm not going to be assaulting an amassed force, I'm not going to sniping General Red and I'm not going to be conducting infiltration missions so why should I bust my @$$ for nothing? Now I'm not saying its not good to be prepared but you should really focus on what you need to survive, not what you need to be in Red Dawn.


For food gathering you might want to look into rifle/shotgun over and under combo guns, because when I go rabbit hunting I see alot of deer and when I go deer hunting I see a lot of rabbits. Plus they are simple gun with few parts to break.

It seems like things always work out like that :)

sethjewell
January 23, 2008, 07:05 PM
Well I will have a fort up on the top of Mt. Curahee for my SHTF situation so I won't have to carry far. I don't care about no f'n felony I hate the law anyway so I will do anything to make their lives hell. I envision for my shtf situation the atf and irs getting out of hand and taking up guns and from then going to a wwII Germany-like state. I want a 7mag cause I like a 7mag. And the suppresor book I have has a suppresor guide for a mrk2 not for a glock or 1911. I changed my AR-15 caliber idea to a AR-10 with a acog scope.

Jorg Nysgerrig
January 23, 2008, 07:16 PM
Well I will have a fort up on the top of Mt. Curahee for my SHTF situation so I won't have to carry far. I don't care about no f'n felony I hate the law anyway so I will do anything to make their lives hell. I envision for my shtf situation the atf and irs getting out of hand and taking up guns and from then going to a wwII Germany-like state. I want a 7mag cause I like a 7mag. And the suppresor book I have has a suppresor guide for a mrk2 not for a glock or 1911. I changed my AR-15 caliber idea to a AR-10 with a acog scope.

I can only assume this stream of nonsense is directly related to the fact you are a 13 year old (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=4111169#post4111169) with an active imagination and so little parental supervision that you shoot with no hearing protection. But, you may wish to review the rules of this forum and either remove your post or update it to reflect the standards of this board. If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning.

The Deer Hunter
January 23, 2008, 07:29 PM
Well I will have a fort up on the top of Mt. Curahee for my SHTF situation so I won't have to carry far.


What happens if "Stuff", Hits The Fan right now? It seems strangely convenient that your SHTF situation seems to accommodate your plans quite nicely.

Owen
January 23, 2008, 07:37 PM
Study Hygiene Intently

goon
January 23, 2008, 08:12 PM
First off, if I were you I'd delete that last post real quick. It is going to draw attention.

It sounds like you're looking more at starting a guerilla conflict than surviving.
IMO, the two are kind of contradictory.
If you want to survive you should avoid shooting unless you absolutely have to defend yourself or your loved ones. People tend to shoot back if you shoot at them. More bullets in the air = more people getting hit by them. If you're really interested in survival there are other places you should start besides guns. IMO, if you can't afford all the guns you "need" and the other stuff to prep, get a 10/22 and a lot of ammo and start buying the other stuff as you can. Get food, water, and shelter taken care of before you buy another gun. The 10/22 will do a whole lot that the others will do and for the rifle and about 4K of ammo you'll only pay about $300. I actually started with guns because I didn't really have an understanding of preparedness in the past. I do now. There are guns on the wishlist but I'm also planning to cover a lot of other bases in the next few months too. But the truth is that if things went wrong tomorrow I probably wouldn't make it without extraordinary luck. I'd die and the guy with a S&W M10 and a Mosin and $400 worth of rice and split peas would live.
He's more prepared than I am.
Be honest with yourself here - Are you in the same position?

Last, if you really are 13, take a breath and just chill for a minute.
I'm not trying to criticize but if you're a teenager you can't buy guns yet anyhow. You might talk parents into buying a 10/22 but you probably won't talk them into an AR-10. You might talk them into an SKS, Mosin, Mauser, or Enfield though and those are all more affordable options for anyone, especially a teenager who's trying to buy guns on money from odd jobs and newspaper routes.
From reading your other posts, you said you have a 25-20, a .410, and some .22's. What do you have and is there a reason they couldn't be incorporated into some of the roles you'd need to fill?

I have no idea who you are and I'm not trying to be a jerk. I learned how to shoot before I was old enough to tie my own shoes so I do know a little about guns but there are many on here who know more.
I guess what I'm getting at is I had someone knowledgeable to talk this stuff over with. I don't know if you do or not or even if I qualify as knowledgeable. But PM me if you got questions.

To the other THR'ers participating in this thread, I have this to say:
Imagine you're 13 and you love guns. You'd want to learn more and discuss it with others who have similar interests.
Fortunately, I had a father, grandfathers, and a great uncle who was a scout/sniper under Patton during WWII. I was lucky in that regard. Maybe Seth doesn't have people around who share his interests. Maybe THR is the only place he can ask these questions.
Some of you may need to just take a breath and chill too.

JWarren
January 23, 2008, 08:27 PM
To everyone who has thusfar contributed to this thread:

Thank you for the time and thought you have put into this thread. With Seth's last post, the last vestige of my hope for this thread becoming productive has been crushed.

This will be the LAST post I contribute to this thread, and likely any that involves an adolescent's fantasies.

The remainer of this post will be addressed to our OP, Seth. Seth, you are talking about some very serious subjects with serious implications. For that, I am not going to lay it on the line. Call it a dash of Black Coffee.


Well I will have a fort up on the top of Mt. Curahee for my SHTF situation so I won't have to carry far.

Have you read ANYTHING that others have posted here???

You would do WELL to heed the words of those older and wiser than you. More importantly you would do well to LISTEN TO THOSE THAT HAVE... oh I don't know.... ACTUALLY LIVED THROUGH something more than a fantasy you have cooked up in your head where you can convienently adjust the "facts" to fit into your delusions.

Life is-- in no way-- required to follow your script.

You WILL have to leave your little compound at some point. Otherwise, they will likely uncover your dehydrated and mummified corpse in an indeterminate future. Now, I posted about how I OFTEN had to leave my little SHTF compound-- and I promise you that we were FAR more prepared that you are. And yet, there were plenty of essential things we forgot or ran out of.

People tried to help you, but you really don't seem to want to hear anything that clashes with your Resident Evil fantasies.


I don't care about no f'n felony I hate the law anyway so I will do anything to make their lives hell.

And now it seems that my original suspicions about wanting a suppressed handgun was accurate. I don't know if you realize this or not, but likely the people that MOST of us worry about during a SHTF are people with YOUR mentality.

I assure you that my help in preparing you to be a "Raider" and/or "Looter" has come to an end.


I envision for my shtf situation the atf and irs getting out of hand and taking up guns and from then going to a wwII Germany-like state.


You mean to tell us that you are PLANNING at 13 years old your standoff with ATF and IRS agents, and THAT is what you envision SHTF to be?

Do a little reading on how those little stand-offs usually end. You will rapidly understand that you don't need to stockpile for the "long haul."

Your fantasy situation is not about disasters or societal collapse-- otherwise, you would not be worried about an agency of the government. In a collapse, those don't have influence or don't exist. What YOU are talking about is open rebellion in an otherwise ordinary world.

I have no intentions of assisting in that department.


I want a 7mag cause I like a 7mag.


But...but... but.... it's my favorite. Can't you just alter reality to include my preferences? Sorry. Reality dictates that it isn't the ideal caliber to get through with. Cost and availability make it that way. And no amount of your preferences or wishes will alter that-- or the opinions of those who understand that reality.

SHTF isn't about preferences or luxuries. It is about making correct choices, and getting by with what will work.


And the suppresor book I have has a suppresor guide for a mrk2 not for a glock or 1911.

And a future date for a nice visit from ATF-- thus making a self-fullfilling prophesy of what you envision your SHTF to be.

Didn't GK get busted for illegal silencers? Does anyone know if he had any children?


I changed my AR-15 caliber idea to a AR-10 with a acog scope.


Oh good... you traded out for a heavier rifle that still does the job you want your 7mm mag to do. And you dropped out a nice, lightweight rifle that would allow you to carry a LOT more bullets in terms of cartridge weight. And now there is no lightweight intermediate carbine in your mix.

I think you are actually getting more impractical in your thought process. I'd much rather see you drop the 7mm mag for an AR-10 and keep the AR-15.

Crap... I said I wasn't going to help anymore. Disregard that last sentence.




Kid... seek help. Talk to your parents. Or a counselor. Or a priest.

I am concerned that the future's not so bright if you don't reevaluate your views on life.


With this, I bid this thread Farewell. I encourage others to do the same.



-- John

gunnerh
January 23, 2008, 09:20 PM
A 10/22 with 2 extra 10 round factory mags and all the ammo you can afford. Then shoot it, gain the skill of hitting what you aim at. Then buy more ammo and do it again. Bullet placement is key and anything else is jut noise.

DiN_BLiX
January 23, 2008, 09:54 PM
Well I will have a fort up on the top of Mt. Curahee for my SHTF situation so I won't have to carry far. I don't care about no f'n felony I hate the law anyway so I will do anything to make their lives hell. I envision for my shtf situation the atf and irs getting out of hand and taking up guns and from then going to a wwII Germany-like state. I want a 7mag cause I like a 7mag. And the suppresor book I have has a suppresor guide for a mrk2 not for a glock or 1911. I changed my AR-15 caliber idea to a AR-10 with a acog scope


Thats usually when they just burn you to the ground, shoot your family from 600 yards, send in the stormtroopers etc.(no cops getting upset cuz i call swat the stormtroopers, thats a COMPLAMENT). Not going to matter what weapons you have stockpiled if youre the only one fool enough to be manning the fort. This type a foolishness is NOT very high road at all and i think we need a threadlock now.

JWarren
January 23, 2008, 09:58 PM
This type a foolishness is NOT very high road at all and i think we need a threadlock now.


Yep.


-- John

Navy joe
January 23, 2008, 10:47 PM
-Place in society. If you are alone, not liked, or percieved to be prepared you are a target. Maybe they have guns too. Bugging out certainly reduces your friends and neighbors unless you are bugging home.


That's from my first post regarding an issue way more important than guns. Sounds like you are planning to be alone and not liked. Pretty sure you don't own Mt. Curahee. People around there might need SHTF guns because of you. Best of luck with your felony and hopeful impending deletion from this board. Young sir, you are a discredit to all of us who value freedom.

takhtakaal
January 24, 2008, 12:43 AM
I don't care about no f'n felony I hate the law anyway so I will do anything to make their lives hell. I envision for my shtf situation the atf and irs getting out of hand and taking up guns and from then going to a wwII Germany-like state.

:what:
:what:
:what:
:what:
:what:
:what:
:what:
:what:
:what:
:what:

Wow. Just wow.

Like,








wow.

:what:

silverlance
January 24, 2008, 01:24 AM
eh.. sigh*.

I was going to nominate a FAL, then concur that most likely the best choice is a Ruger 10/22 ... followed by a later counterargument that perhaps the CZ 452 is what you really want.

But I guess right now we just need a good hard boot to the rear.

Matt-J2
January 24, 2008, 01:36 AM
I had a feeling it would go this way. At least there were some useful posts.


Now, back to play Splinter Cell. It's my training regimen for when the SHTF. :p

goon
January 24, 2008, 09:19 AM
I agree that the thread seems to have run aground.

On the "boot to the rear", the OP says in another post that he is 13.
His other threads on here don't seem to be "bad". Most of his questions show the same kind of lack of knowledge that you hear from many adults in gun stores, sometimes on both sides of the counter.
You wanna ban him for being misinformed?
Wasn't there a time when you were also misinformed?

Many of us talk about educating this generation about guns and shooting and what they're really all about.
If we really mean what we say, this is a great opportunity to challenge his misconceptions and teach this kid some stuff.
Or is that "teach the youth responsible firearms ownership" philosophy just something we yammer about when it's convenient and requires no effort from us?

This ain't my board but I think the kid should stay.

takhtakaal
January 24, 2008, 09:30 AM
"Misinformed" doesn't quite sound like this. This sounds more like someone is looking forward to a "Waco: The Sequel" or a "Ruby Ridge II" and is desperately hoping that life imitates his artistic expectations. He doesn't need to be trashed in this thread, but it sounds like someone needs to sit down face to face and talk with him.

JWarren
January 24, 2008, 10:06 AM
I am not saying the kid should be banned. I *AM* saying that we should STOP reading just the thread title and then chiming in on our thoughts. We should cease and desist giving aid to this kid's delusions.

Guys, I am going to make a few assumptions here based upon what we know. I don't KNOW these things, but I have a pretty good idea.

The kid already has guns. That tells me that he perhaps comes from a family with a firearms tradition. I hope to GOD that those firearms are locked away and only taken out with responsible adult supervision.

Next, the kid is talking about showdowns with ATF and IRS agents. He didn't pull that out of his butt. He is probably listening to adults around him. I mean come on-- what is a 13 year old thinking about the IRS for?

I had adults around me that spoke like that when I was growing up-- two uncles to be exact. If it were not for the tempering influence of more reasonable adults, I may have been spouting the same things. But what happens when there ARE NO tempering influences-- or the radical is your father?


I am not against the kid hanging around and getting that tempering influence. I AM against us giving ANY assistence to him at this point. Thusfar, every subsequent post he has made has only reinforced-- and indeed made worse-- his original position. He isn't listening to anyone at this point.

I don't have the confidence that the information we would give him would be used constructively now or in the future. Given time, I may feel otherwise.

The responsibility is ours at this point. I'll answer a question, but when I get indications like the OP has made, I feel it is my responsibility to keep my mouth shut.

I would have hated myself if I were the one that taught Cho everything he knew about firearms.

I sense some anger in this kid that I don't want to empower.


We should read this again:


I don't care about no f'n felony I hate the law anyway so I will do anything to make their lives hell.


We all freaking shake our heads when some kid does something stupid and hurts a lot of people. Guys, the kids doing that stuff are only MONTHS older that our OP.



-- John

baz
January 24, 2008, 10:36 AM
It has been a long time since I've read every post in a thread already this long before I saw it. If it gets locked, I want to express my appreciation for the excellent postings. All in all, one of the best discussions the subject I've ever read.

Even now that the OP has revealed the incredible extent of his adolescent immaturity, and some, like JWarren, are regretting having ever responded to begin with, I think the responses to that revelation are an excellent testament to what the name of this forum -- The High Road -- stands for, and the thread is better for them.

We may well have said all, or most of all, there is to say about the original question, but given the latest revelations of the OP's mindset, I, for one, am appreciating the way the forum has responded. Even if the latest postings do nothing to arrest the the wayward development of the OP's mindset, they might benefit some other dark soul who is reading along.

Thanks to all for a great read.

Wedge
January 24, 2008, 10:41 AM
I hope that he is just a troll. However, I have been thinking about this pretty much right after I read the first post.

I have an ethical question; where does privacy end and public safety come to the front. Some his statements sounded pretty unstable, if a teacher had heard them they would be required by law to contact the authorities. At what point does "internet anonymity" cease and the board admin. needs to trace the IP address and contact authorities?

Tokugawa
January 24, 2008, 11:41 AM
SETH, No person stands alone. Love your neighbor, and have community. This is the way to success and survival. Everyone needs someone to bind wounds, share food, share chores. This applies in everyday life as much as in a shtf scenario.
THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A 'LONE SURVIVALIST'. IT IS AN OXYMORON.

goon
January 24, 2008, 12:57 PM
We all freaking shake our heads when some kid does something stupid and hurts a lot of people. Guys, the kids doing that stuff are only MONTHS older that our OP.


Exactly my point.
No kid is "meant" to turn out like one of the bad examples you speak of.
If you have a chance to tell/show/explain to a 13 year old what is really means to be a man you should. It could make a huge difference to a lot of people.
Up to this point he hasn't done anything wrong yet. All he's done is shot his mouth off on the internet.
With the internet being what it is, that's bad enough.
But it hasn't gotten him in any trouble yet.

If you disregard the language and try to understand the point, he isn't terribly far off the mark on some issues.
We talk about the Founders a lot - what they did was treason at the time and would have gotten them hanged if they had been caught.
They didn't care about "no f'en felony" either.

Lots of people, including many of us, complain about unfair and excessive taxes that don't really seem to benefit our society at all. I know I do. Given the choice, would you still send a chunk of your paycheck to the IRS? I wouldn't. But the ballot box is a better way to get rid of them than the cartridge box (see my above posts about more bullets flying = more people getting hit by them).

I also fear gun confiscation. I can remember the first time I read an American Rifleman in my early teens and how the idea of gun control bothered me so much.
Once again, the ballot box is your friend.

The problems aren't with his opinions. We all still have the right to those.
The problems here are with how he expresses them and the fact that teenagers are kind of prone to just say what comes to mind (I still haven't grown out of that last fault).



My advice to Seth if he show up again:
- Think before you type. Seriously, I'm not trying to be cruel but like I said, stuff like that just draws too much attention.
- Do your own research on our system of government. It could use some improvements but it was built in such a way that we can do that without shooting at each other. If it wasn't it never would have stood for 200 plus years.
- Stop posting about illegal crap. Even if you're just shooting your mouth off you may get way more attention than you originally intended. Fortunately for you, most LEO's aren't as intolerant of you as you are of them. If they were they would be knocking on your front door with 12 gauge breaching rounds right now. LEO's are not your enemy.
- Stop planning to do illegal stuff. It's stupid because you will lose. Even if you are moraly right you will lose. Regardless of what weapons you have, you can't beat a system. Your only hope is to work within that system and make it better. Breaking the law won't accomplish your goals so there is no point in doing it. You want a crash course in guerilla warfare? Only fight the battles you can win - especially in life. Use the ballot box (in 5 years). That can't get you arrested or shot and it's much more quiet than any silencer. And you don't need a Paladin press instruction manual to do it.


Anyway, I'm out of this one too.

ForneyRider
January 24, 2008, 01:08 PM
depends on the situation:

Marlin lever action gun and Ruger Single-action pistol in same caliber shooting lead.

SKS and/or AR-15 gun and 9mm and/or 45ACP.

22LR of some sort.

If I had the money: a belt-fed weapon of some sort, grenade launcher, flame thrower, ...

takhtakaal
January 24, 2008, 01:45 PM
Could we cease fueling this kid's morbid fantasies with recommendations? I don't mean to sound like I'm an old fart, but I am: thirteen year old kids need to be sweating algebra homework and trying to afford enough Clearasil to have a social life, not envisioning themselves playing powder-actuated firearms king of the hill with alphabet agencies. Enough already.

Matt-J2
January 24, 2008, 03:38 PM
Takhtakaal, that might require them to actually read the thread rather than posting after glancing at the first sentence. Sadly, an issue we have in many, many threads here. Such is the internet, though.


Goon: I don't disagree, but there's only so much you can do over the net if the person isn't in the mood to listen.
At 13, he's likely going to ignore us. After all, it's the internet. Would you rather read some 'old guy's(anyone over 22 or so) rambling speech about being a responsible citizen, or look at pictures of naked girls?

JWarren
January 24, 2008, 04:02 PM
Excellent post, Goon.




ForneyRider,

Dude....After four pages of this, and then several posters (including me) asking that we STOP fueling this fantasy, you come in with:


If I had the money: a belt-fed weapon of some sort, grenade launcher, flame thrower, ...

Not really helping.

This is why its a good idea to read the previous posts prior to adding to the thread.



I think I am going to put in a recommendation that we lock this one up tight.

Like Baz, I want to thank everyone who took the time to put in serious and thoughtful responses.


-- John

Navy joe
January 25, 2008, 12:08 AM
Lock thread! Please. For the children. ;)

I'm all for educating young people. I got a 15 and a 16 year old into USPSA. The 15 year old quit, the dad didn't. Both were exposed. The 16 year old was sponsored, beating me and running with some big league folks. I've also been around for others first firearms experiences. Seth doesn't desire education, nor is it worth it.

I am reading between the lines, giving him the due that he has thought through his scenario. For him SHTF will involve living at the expense of others. He doesn't want those guns to fight the alphabet soup, he wants to get his stuff from someone better off than he. He has expressed zero desire to actually be prepared and little in the way of morality.

Somewhat unrelated tangent. I have a cousin a few years older than I who grew up at as a lost child(like this mess sounds). He went to the BIG house, for a loooong time, for beating up persons of alternate lifestyle. Became a jailhouse muslim. Now is somewhat out and is reported to be ever increasingly radical. If he shows up at my house, I know that it is nowhere near where he has ever seen me before, he's not been given my address, I haven't seen him in 20 years, and his worldview is 180 out from mine. I can assume ill intent and he gets one verbal warning to leave.

With respect to this mess, I see similarities, do you? In SHTF I don't think persons of this anti-social view would be very welcome within range.

I really enjoy this discussion, it'd be great if the OP wasn't in it. Especially cool is the fact that SHTF threads don't make it far here usually because of rampant fantasy. I don't obsess over guns for SHTF but obviously have some. I just believe I'll live to see a day when milk and gas isn't at the store and won't be there tomorrow or the next day... It's awful fun to talk about this stuff with others who have thought it through beyond guns.

islandphish
January 25, 2008, 12:41 AM
I like talking about this stuff as much as anyone but this thread is no good.

I had my doubts from the beginning which is why I was silent through 3 pages.

Unfortunately my doubts were legitimate.

Please close this one.

takhtakaal
January 25, 2008, 12:45 AM
I hit the warning icon yesterday about 2 pm my time and sent a terse message to the powers that be.

Nothing happening yet.

JWarren
January 25, 2008, 07:10 AM
I hit the warning icon yesterday about 2 pm my time


I sent one as well.


-- John

Fred Fuller
January 25, 2008, 07:22 AM
OK, I'm closing this one due to multiple member requests, till one of the mods here has a chance to review it and decide what to do with it. I have a basic aversion to those four letters (SHTF) anyway, and using them in a thread title in S&T is apt to get a peremptory close right off the bat. But this isn't S&T, and not every mod shares my twisted proclivities.

lpl/nc

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