[Dot_mdb]

Last weekend I decided to do a little testing. Every Saturday, weather permitting, I spend an hour or two in the pits practicing with a revolver before spending part of the afternoon trying to learn/practice skeet.

I decided to see what #8 shot (12 gauge 7/8 oz load) would do at close-in home defence distances. At 10 feet the first shot patterned about 4 inches. I didn't count the holes so I am not sure if all of the shot had left the wad. The second shot from 20' opened the pattern to about 8"-9". I was using an IC choke in my Browning BPS.

For the third shot I wanted to do a little unofficial test for penetration. I aimed closer to the side of the target so that at least some of the shot would hit the 1"X2" pieces of wood that make up my portable target stand. What I found was that from a distance of 20' NONE of the shot that hit the wood would penetrate the 3/4" thickness.

My conclusion from this is that #8 shot from a 12 gauge shotgun is unlikely to penetrate exterior walls and endanger the neighbors, but it is also not likely to stop a BG either. I'll continue to rely on 158 grain SWC for HD.

Next week some testing of 00 buckshot.

Bill

[kudu]

#8 shot is not made to penetrate much of anything. Its main use is for birds and smalll game, or clay sports. Try some #4s, that is what I hunt fox with in varmint season. It will kill a fox at 50yds with about 2-3 inches of meat penetration, inside for HD you probably could cut a 2x4 in half at 15ft with little worry of the shot going further.

[Preacherman]

At typical indoor ranges (measured in feet rather than yards) light shot often works just fine. A law enforcement member of THR has told some of us about some domestic shootings in his area in recent months, and he says that #7½ shot is running three-for-three in stopping intruders DRT. I wouldn't like to be hit by a solid mass of this stuff at ten feet, I can tell you... :what:

[Mr Jody Hudson]

One of my buddies is a carpenter and has a LOT of scrap everything available.

We made several model walls, duplicating all of the walls in our homes. We used the same or similar materials and tested various loads from our shotguns. We tested everything from slugs, every kind of buck shot, and all manner of shot in the different sizes.

We got a difference from what you got. We did not have chokes, we had cylinder bores in our short barrel pumps and in his goose gun he had a full choke, 34 inch barrel. He also had a 30 inch modified for ducks and geese and a 20 inch full choke for birds.

We decided after days and days of testing to USE ONLY SMALL SHOT in plastic shot cups, loaded to maximum velocity.

We found that the shot STAYED in the shot cups out to the longest distance we had in our homes from barrel end to longest distance a criminal intruder could be from us; that distance was about 20 feet. In other words from where our back was against a wall -- from the end of the barrel of our gun, or as far down a hallway as we could get, to the farthest distance a BG could be away from us. This came out to 20 feet in a room distance of almost 30 feet.

We have children and grandchildren so it was of greatest importance that we know about penetrations in BGs as well as walls. We dressed up huge pumpkins from his garden in all manner of old clothing and jackets we got from Salvation Army.

We found that the shot cups stayed loaded with shot and acted like slugs out to the full 20 feet and penetrated all the clothing, even two or three leather jackets and then “exploded” in the pumpkins with penetrations of about 6 to 9 inches.

We also found that even our lightest walls would shear the shot cup from the shot and that once the cup was sheared, and even that 3 inches of space between walls, the shot would start to disperse a little and lose it’s penetration ability, almost completely. In walls that were only a piece of paneling on each side or only thin drywall on each side and with no insulation in between; we got some shot exiting the far side of the wall. We found that the shot going through would not penetrate a t-shirt a foot from the far side of the wall. We found that the smaller the shot, the less penetration it gave through the second side of the walls. We also found that the smallest shot gave the most explosive holes in the pumpkins and that it did not get stopped by, even three leather jackets, as long as it was still in the shot cup. We would find the shot cup stopped by the jacket and the shot going through the jackets in a single slug but then instantly dispersing.

So, what all of my house guns are loaded with is the fastest heavy loads of smallest shot. I have #9 at 1450 fps in a 1 1/8 oz loading.

Please do your own tests before deciding to use things in your own home, unless you live alone.

We opted to put another layer of wall on both sides of all the rooms; a wall of one more layer of sheet rock on each side and in the living room, where both outside doors entered the home; we put a layer of wood paneling on top of the drywall. We used the full thickness drywall. Just in case, we also put a separate and not attached 4’ x 8’ panel of drywall and paneling, with a nice bright picture on it, for decoration, behind the crib and between the crib and living room wall, as there is frequently a baby or young child there. We also moved all the beds to the most distant wall from the parents room. There was one door that was at the end of the hallway, across the living room, on the other end of the house from the parent’s room. We replaced that door with a solid door and put a mirror on the outside of the door with a piece of sheetrock behind the mirror and two extra hinges on the door to support the extra weight.

Why all this, our homes are way out in the country and this was pre Y2K and it was well known that we were self-sufficient. We thus elevated our normal security considerations and tested many things. We learned that much of what people “know to be true” did not hold up under testing. Buckshot, by the way, didn’t do well at all. It did poorly against the leather jackets on pumpkins compared to the 9s in shot cups. Slugs penetrated everything! We opted to use slugs only for special purposes and we opted to use buckshot for nothing. Your proposed or expected uses and tests may vary!

Please do not take us as authorities either DO YOUR OWN THINKING AND TESTING PLEASE!!! Assumptions can kill.

[Dot_mdb]

Jody,

Very interesting. Your testing was much more extensive than mine. I don't know what to make of the difference between your results and mine. I will go back and recheck.

Is there anyone else out there who can comment on the amount of dispersion of shot there should be at 10 feet and 20 foot distances?

20 feet is almost 1/3 or the way to 25 yards and I would have guessed that the shot should have separated at that point in order to achieve something like a 30 - 35" pattern at 25 yards.

BTW, my distances were measured from the muzzle to the target.

Bill

[Preacherman]

Dot_mdb, check your math... 25 yards is 75 feet. 20 feet is only just over 25%, or ¼, of that distance.

Jody, I'm impressed with the thoroughness of your testing. Well done, sir! I'm going to make a note of your post for future reference.

Another thing with small shot sizes is that one can get low-base, low-recoil target loads in that shot size. I've had to teach several women to shoot who could handle a 20ga. just fine, but were very uncomfortable with a 12ga. when using standard-velocity loads. In some cases, they or their families didn't have the spare cash available to buy a 20ga. However, by using the low-recoil loads in a 12ga., they were usually able to handle the recoil just fine - and at indoor distances, I'd hate to be the guy they were shooting at!

[sm]

Mr Jody Hudson --Great Report!

I have also done some testing and mine mirrors yours.

I learned something, I didn't know drywall for ceiling was different than for walls.

I did get to shoot a new construction home. We've all seen these cute homes in new subdivisions, priced right, in the 1200 - 1400 sq ft size, here in the South. Vinyl siding with nothing between the siding and the 2x4's but a thin 1/8" pc of plywood and 3/8" flimsy insulation panel.

I shot inside going out and outside going in from 10 ft...stuff penetrates.One example : 1 1/4oz of #6 ( old generic load everyone has used), 10' from outside through vinyl and the shot penetrated the interior wall of the bedroom another 10' accross the room.

.410 skeet loads surprised me on penetrating these thin interior walls. .410 slugs I made it through two rooms and exited to the outdoors !!


So when I built a house once the wifey asked about why I insisted on certain construction material and ideas and why those cute houses sold for so little money- I showed her pictures. "OH...Ok forget cute and the lowered cost per sq ft...what we gonna build?. She told her dad whom replied " yep, stuff ain't built like it used to be".

I swear I could have used a butcher knife, cut a hole from outdoors through siding and entered that home. Scary.

[only1asterisk]

Mr. Hudson's experience mirrors mine. I too have tested various shot combinations on building materials. I use lead or plated #2 or BB. Little more penetration, but it still doesn't go through 2 walls.


David

[Dave McCracken]

Good thread! And Jody, good to see you. You were an asset on TFL and I hope you choose to stick around here.

Re the different results....

Shotgunning has few absolutes. Taking all the factors in consideration, one still has to make a choice based on experience, patterning of the given load and shotgun, and a myriad of factors.Jody's choices work well for Jody's use environment, and it behooves us all to know what a load can do in ours.

The longest shot possible in Casa McC falls under 10 yards. Most possible shots run under 15 feet. The trap load up first in the HD 870 will still be contained in the cup at 15 feet, or very near so. Remember,if perimeter security fails and a tyhreat has entered the house, we do not want spread. We want the maximum amount of energy dumped into the minimum area of perp.

That trap load's backed up with Estate 00. This is in case I have to shoot through the refrigerator or couch. Slugs have little use for HD, but the S/S has two aboard, because life is full of surprises, mostly unpleasant ones.

BTW, Casa McC is a townhouse by a good builder, with insulation in the interior walls.

The 870 I use for deer and HD backup is loaded with Winchester 00. This is more for Community Defense, and outside ranges negate the effect of the trap load.

Overpentration is more of a prob with the 38 revolvers used by non shotgunners here.

For those committed to finding the best loads, I suggest trying out 00 and 1 buck in the 12 gauges, and patterning at the distance of the longest shot opp plus a yard for GPs. Also try a light target load at that distance. If the load hits as a fist sized mass, it's a worthy choice and possibly the better one.

Even if you choose to use light target loads for HD, get some "Serious" ammo, pattern and test it and keep it handy. Every HD shotgun is also a potential CD shotgun....

[Mr Jody Hudson]

Thanks Dave,

I finally have high speed service at home again, as of yesterday!

One HUGE variable in this bird-shot-for-self-defense testing; is whether or not you have a choke that strips off the plastic shot cup. It is the shot, staying in the shot cup, that causes the small shot to act like a slug at these close ranges. From our experiments the highest speed, aka higest fps in velocity, shot had the shot cups that shot stayed in the best.

I know from shooting that choked guns usually begin to strip off the shot cup, away from the shot, as the load passes by the choke.

[Dot_mdb]

Preach,

You wrote:


>Dot_mdb, check your math... 25 yards is 75 feet. 20 feet is only just over 25%, or ¼, of that distance.<

Father, please forgive me for I have sinned. Twenty feet is GREATER than 25% of the distance to 75 feet and is also LESS than 1/3 the distance to 75 feet. Notice that I said ALMOST 1/3 of the distance.

The next time you speak with the lord, would you ask him how any of that makes any difference to the basic statement which was that I had an 8" spread of shot at 20' with no penetration.

Jodie states that in his experiments no shot left the cup at 20' and Dave says that at 15' he gets a semi-solid mass. These differences in our three results are so striking that I think more research is needed.

I am using the following load:

STS hulls
18.2 grains Clays powder
7/8 oz shot
Winchester primers
Winchester Gray wads
Velocity is about 1250 if I remember correctly from the Hodgon manual.

Loaded on a MEC 9000G

Sorry, I am in the office so I don't have the exact component numbers in front of me. I think the primers are W209 and the gray wads are something like W12L.

In re-reading Jodie's results I noticed that in one respect his results and mine are similar. The similarity is that once the shot has left the cup there is little or no penetration.

And Jody gives good advice. He says to check in your own gun to see how it all works.

I wonder if Winchester or Remington or Federal have published info about what controls shot/wad separation.

Bill

[Glamdring]

So the trick is to get the birdshot to act like a big glasser slug?

Does taping the shot cup actually help??

[sm]

Dave:
Shotgunning has few absolutes.
Dave--that perhaps is the MOST absolute statement that can be said about shotguns, loads, and chokes.

Mr Jody Hudson:
Please do your own tests before deciding to use things in your own home, unless you live alone.
It is the shot, staying in the shot cup, that causes the small shot to act like a slug at these close ranges
I agree, we cannot drive home the point enough to test your OWN guns, loads, chokes, for the intended purpose enough--be it HD, hunting, clay games or gaming.

FWIW due to arthritis, I have mom set up with a single shot 20 ga, full choked, this thing really surprised me in testing. POA/POI spot on. It does a remarkable/surprising job with everything I've run through it, be it skeet, buckshot,or slugs. For an inexpensive shotty-well seen better guns not fair as well.

I believe in Hard shot. Currently stoked with 7/8 oz AA Skeet loads in #8 shot. This little fella is devasting with this load. The #3 buck is also in the cuff...if-n it gets to that point, again little fella gonna do a world of hurt with that load to.

It's what mom can handle,she shoots it well, granted I 'd prefer something like a pump, however this little fella gives her and myself that comforting feeling.

[Dave McCracken]

Jody, Huzzah! Hope to see you around more....

BTW, those results are with zero choke, that barrel's choke left with the front 12 inches or so. Some informal tests on overripe melons a decade ago at about 20 feet, if memory serves, left large wet spots on the backstop, and entry holes of more/less bore size. The whole back of the melon was vaporized.

73, your mom is better off as it is. Simple MOA, good effect but controllable.
My Gram's approach was to use HER father's top break IJ 32 short, the one with nickel plate and faux MOP grips. With new ammo, a safety check by a smith buddy, and a few lessons, she could hit a grapefruit across the room EVERY time. Being she was Sicilian, I had few doubts about her shooting if needed.

Glamdring, I'm loath to recommend taping. Little or no choke, short distance, not needed, IMO...

[sm]

Dave,
The truth is, I guess we've set up ~ 10 folks with these NEF 20 gauges. Everyone has tested just like the first one I bought for mom. Other older folks with arthritis, single moms on a budget, as backup hidden 'tool in the toolbox', for an older couple...etc.
I didn't feel right with these folks not having a means, so I assisted and gave lessons, set 'em with ammo and a slip on cuff. Didn't make any money, might have broke even-maybe. There was that blackberry cobbler insisted I take for the time and ammo ( hard-head, she must've been Sicilian).

They have a right to defend, I was just able to lend a hand.

[tango3065]

This is truley a sad way to prove a point but a police officer in my home town was shot last week in the face with #6 at 20feet and he was still able to shoot the scumbag. The officer lost one eye and lots of shot still in face and neck but the pellets that hit his skull bounced off without penetrating.The officer is going to have to undergo many surguries and the most serious one will be in the only eye he has left because he has 2 pellets that are in the corner of this eye. Another bad part is he couldnt see good after he was struck and only hit the bg in the arm. So my pont is dont depend on small game shells for life or death.

[Dave McCracken]

Good for you, Steve. IMO, you made a positive difference. All of us that can should do something along these lines.

mastinson, I pray for that officer. One case, however, is not statistically significant. And do NOT believe what comes across the TV and papers. To this date, I've never seen them get it right.

[Glamdring]

Dave McCracken understand your saying that it (taping) isn't needed, but does it help any? And are there problems if you do tape??

***

re1973: I had been thinking about suggesting the NEF 20 (with buttcuff) + J or K frame (with 38+P LHP or Winchester's +P 130JHP) for my sisters.

I have 4 sisters and though none of them are really into shooting at least 2 of them have talked to me about wanting something for home.

They all either have kids or are likely to have the rugrats visiting.

I know how to keep guns secured, but worry about well how non gun enthusiast will balance safety vs readiness. I thought single might make more sense, plus budget concerns.

How have you had them secure the singles?

[sm]

Mom-Well, nobody except for me and my gunsmith buddy knows she has a gun-period. The rest of the kids , grandkids , nobody. I have made two, very creative hiding places, where she can keep it -handy-under key in case grandkids get to snooping. I'm right proud of this handiwork. Mom lives alone so...picture a wonderful lady in her den after work, either watching TV, or reading her Bible with the lap table and NEF within hands reach. Hers is open shell in chamber--snap shut--hammer back and fire.

Other older couples w/o kids do the same. Scrabble and NEF, neat combo, huh? Some of them also have grandkids and again hiding places, handy/safe and secure.

Single moms, I had the kids brought out, we did a mini Eddie Eagle dealie, shot BBguns and a single shot .410. I believe in educating kids about guns, gun safety. Takes away the curiousity, ensures safety, re-enforces the trust b/t child and parent.

I know that sounds old fashioned, and goes against the grain of the sheeple...I ain't no sheeple, I'm going for curdmudgeonhood tho'. ;) I'm a C.I.T. I have no idea where my Eagle tapes are--don't care. The moms share, or have bought other NRA stuff to teach kids amongst themselves. They show the tape to their kids friends...If the tapes keeps educating kids, keep getting passed around...I don't care to ever get them back...does more good getting watched than collecting dust at my place.

All these come with gun locks. Some use the factory lock, some use the "Life Jacket" style , a few have locked pantry, hall closet, linen closet...etc.all have the key worn around the neck, in the case of couples, both wear the key, always. This was part of the training, and safety dealie we made up for each individual case. Locks are cheap for hall closets and such.

I made it very clear to all- the 4 rules Always. I made it clear the darn gun ain't gonna jump up on its hind legs and start shooting. I let the kids see, touch, see the inside of the shells I cut apart. I took away any mystery, anwered any question, no matter what. I gave out candy for right anwers I made it serious and fun.

Tom Givens Book "Fighting Smarter" was a must read . He was gracious to give me discount for a dozen books. Good book, main thing I wanted was the SA and mindset.

Get Eddie Eagle for the kids and Givens or Coopers books for the Sisters--don't wait for a holiday...BG's won't. Anything is doable if the "want to" is there.

I just decided to make time, spend the money I really didn't have because I was really pissed with the fact these people had a need, and the media/politicians was lying about guns to the public.

Rights--ain't no age attached.

HTH

[Glamdring]

re1973: I have most of Cooper's stuff. Don't think I have heard of "Tom Givens Book "Fighting Smarter"" do you have a link?

The oldest of the rugrats is almost 4. IMHO I don't think they are ready for gunsafety yet (don't think it will stick yet). Their uncle doesn't live close enough to give the lessons every week :) Kids seem to learn the same way that toddlers eat.

I agree with you about teaching kids gunsafety, I have seen young kids very well trained. But it was always kids that had parent(s) that were very serious about shooting (enjoyed guns/hunting as a hobby).

[Glamdring]

I just reread your last post, I didn't realize they had Eddie on video, that could work.

[sm]

Hey the best student I had (amongst kids) was a 4 yr old girl...do not have your finger anywhere around a "Tigger" she will call you on it. Hey tigger or trigger I don't care what she called it ...she was right.;) Oh, she got a crush on Eddie...she has a stuffed Eagle she sleeps with.

http://www.nrahq.org/safety/eddie/materials.asp

http://www.rangemaster.com/

Edit: duh, forgot the CD , it was good for interaction and the adults learned too. Again all my stuff is floating around somewhere..".to keep it give it away"...

http://store.nrahq.org/nra/product.asp?dept%5Fid=226&pf%5Fid=EE+12377

[Dave McCracken]

Never tried taping, give it a shot and let us know.

Better, IMO, is knowing what your ammo and weapon will do at max range possible inside.