NRA sides against Real ID (national ID)


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Stover954rr
January 21, 2008, 07:48 PM
Hey guys,
I was just watching Lou Dobbs on CNN and the NRA has sided against the "Real ID" (the first steps in a national ID card).

I personally am glad the NRA is still on the side of keeping big brother out of our business.

I though I would let you guys know, its important stuff!

Here is more info on the ID cards:

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/08/16/real.id/

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SoCalShooter
January 21, 2008, 08:46 PM
Thats good to know. They keep trying to slip it in under our radars.

SoCalShooter
January 21, 2008, 08:51 PM
Thats good to know. They keep trying to slip it in under our radars.

32winspl
January 23, 2008, 11:30 AM
My own .02... Any ID that can be made, can and will eventually be faked. Whether you encode the personal info on a tape on the back of the card or on a chip in the card, it is designed to be "read" by a machine at the airport, point-of-sale, a computer in a Cop car, etc. You have to know that it wouldn't be 15 minutes before some enterprising 10th grade computer-geek (or worse) figures out how to build his own card-reader to swipe the info, and maybe an afternoon to build a card maker. You think ID theft is rampant now, wait til this national ID comes out with ALL your personal info on it!
Nope, this new Nat'l ID won't be the endall, just another in in a series. Sorry folks, I just don't trust my gov't (or anyone) with that much info at their fingertips. Regardless of how benign it starts, anyone with that much power and information will eventually use and misuse it.
Ok, I'm taking off my tinfoil hat now.

bluestarlizzard
January 23, 2008, 11:53 AM
i got a dumb question? if the reason for these ideas is because the boarder officials are having trouble figuring out what documents are real 'cause their are so many, why don't they just limit the documantaion allowed for proof?
i.e. if you leave the country or are visiting from another country, you should have to get a passport. which while it would suck for some it would do the job of makeing boarder officials more efficient and it would eliminate the need for the real id.
wouldn't it?

MrAnteater
January 23, 2008, 12:08 PM
We alreday have a national ID, a US passport. Why create something else? What a waste of money...

Blackbeard
January 23, 2008, 12:57 PM
The only benefit I could see to a National ID is if it would allow us to cut through ATF paperwork. Show your ID, verify it, walk out with a gun.

I know, I know, it'll never happen.

mp510
January 23, 2008, 01:29 PM
My own .02... Any ID that can be made, can and will eventually be faked. Whether you encode the personal info on a tape on the back of the card or on a chip in the card, it is designed to be "read" by a machine at the airport, point-of-sale, a computer in a Cop car, etc. You have to know that it wouldn't be 15 minutes before some enterprising 10th grade computer-geek (or worse) figures out how to build his own card-reader to swipe the info, and maybe an afternoon to build a card maker. You think ID theft is rampant now, wait til this national ID comes out with ALL your personal info on it!
Nope, this new Nat'l ID won't be the endall, just another in in a series. Sorry folks, I just don't trust my gov't (or anyone) with that much info at their fingertips. Regardless of how benign it starts, anyone with that much power and information will eventually use and misuse it.
Ok, I'm taking off my tinfoil hat now.
An even bigger problem than fakes is corrupt officials giving them to people who don't qualify. Then instead of the bad guys carrying detectable fake ID's, they're carrying genuine ID's. This happened with the Connecticut DMV a couple years ago.

BobbyQuickdraw
January 23, 2008, 01:35 PM
Its a sad day when you see all this proposed legislation, from gun bans to plastic bag bans to laws that will kill the muscle car (new gas requirements) and nationwide ID cards that seek to pt you in lock step and you think to yourself "I dont want to live in this country."

Not "I dont want to live in America." I love America. But the America I know seems to be threatened every day with disappearing. Republican, Democrat, whatever, is secondary. I'm a Conservative first, meaning I want to Conserve and Preserve America.

Good for the NRA for opposing this. I'll assuredly renew my membership this year. (And the free range bag for signing up for 2 years doesnt hurt!)

Guitargod1985
January 23, 2008, 02:06 PM
Its a sad day when you see all this proposed legislation, from gun bans to plastic bag bans to laws that will kill the muscle car (new gas requirements) and nationwide ID cards that seek to pt you in lock step and you think to yourself "I dont want to live in this country."

What about the law that says all the new manufactured toilets can't flush more than a certain number (1.5, I think) gallons with one flush? I hate this one, because I happen to eat a lot of food in one sitting and this makes me end up having to use MORE water than if I had a 6 gallon toilet. That, plus the plunger has become an integral part of my daily bathroom experience.

I'm giving some serious consideration to smuggling some illegal toilets in from Canada. If anyone wants in, let me know. MAybe I can set up a group buy.

bluestarlizzard
January 23, 2008, 02:07 PM
guitargod, too much information.

Nickotym
January 23, 2008, 02:45 PM
guitargod get yourself an eljer Titan, problem solved.

JColdIron
January 23, 2008, 02:53 PM
The only benefit I could see to a National ID is if it would allow us to cut through ATF paperwork. Show your ID, verify it, walk out with a gun..


In NC the Concealed Carry permit functions like that. No NICS call. Just the paperwork is filled out. They check it against your Drivers licence and sell you the firearm- pistols included.

Worked great at the gunshow. No delay for the call in.

Soo why do we need Real ID?

Fburgtx
January 23, 2008, 02:57 PM
It will soon be against the law to get in to Canada or Mexico without a passport. If you're an American citizen and try it, the feds will jump all over you. However, if you're a an illegal citizen coming the opposite direction in to the U.S., the feds will just sit there and grin and say they can do nothing.....

We're thinking of spending all this money on Real ID because we're worried about all these "terrorists" sneaking in. How about we just use the money to enforce the laws we already have???

We should be fingerprinting and taking DNA sample from everyone here ILLEGALLY in the U.S. Then we should pass a law that states that anyone caught here in the U.S. illegally again will NEVER be allowed to gain U.S. citizenship, nor will any children they have that are born here. That and an automatic $25000 fine for any employer employing an illegal alien would stop this problem immediately.

The U.S. government could easily put an RF chip in the Real ID, link it to our CHL license, and then it would be impossible to go into a store or anywhere without alarms going off stating "this guy's got a gun"! Scary!!!!

MD_Willington
January 23, 2008, 04:16 PM
WA State has this NOW

Enhanced Driver License/ID Card (EDL/ID)

http://www.dol.wa.gov/driverslicense/edl.html

Even then.. I have a green card that has a bunch of data on it already...

TEDDY
January 23, 2008, 08:01 PM
I was given a copy of the "TURNER DIARIES" that is a revalation on national
ID CARD.the book is racest.but interesting reading if you ignore that part.It also mirrors the oklahoma bombing.printed before the bombing.It should scare the bejesus out of you.:uhoh:----:fire:---:banghead:

foob
January 23, 2008, 08:35 PM
It will soon be against the law to get in to Canada or Mexico without a passport. If you're an American citizen and try it, the feds will jump all over you. However, if you're a an illegal citizen coming the opposite direction in to the U.S., the feds will just sit there and grin and say they can do nothing.....

Wow talk about lying through your teeth. Yup illegal immigrants just saunter through border checkpoints without passports. Then those border crossings through deserts must be imaginary. What's the point of border patrol and the minutemen again?

Oh yeah, and the law is already in place. Just that with the number of applications for passports and the backlog, the government has pushed back the deadline to start requiring passports. For now, birth certificates will do when returning to show citizenship.

All you need to enter canada right by land or water is a birth cert OR passport OR certificate of citizenship AND DL.

Fburgtx
January 23, 2008, 11:37 PM
Foob, my point is to take a look at what happens to illegal immigrants in this country (nothing). Now, think about what Mexico and even our own country does to keep us out of Mexico. No, an illegal immigrant isn't going to just slip by the border patrol at a checkpoint. However, once they've gotten in to the country (across the river, through the woods, whatever), not a darn thing happens. I have personally had to deal with LOCAL law enforcement in complaints involving persons who are almost certainly illegal immigrants. One officer even ADMITTED that the guy was almost certainly illegal. The officer didn't even bother to ask for ID because he knew there was nothing he could do. However, as a citizen, if I'm stopped for a speeding ticket/accident/etc., I am expected to IMMEDIATELY show ID!!

foob
January 23, 2008, 11:43 PM
I understand your point Fburgtx. The problem is, as always, money. Not enough federal ICE enforcement officers to take them into custody and deport them. Local enforcement can't deport them. Laws aren't helping. Laws have to be changed before it is any easier.

But your analogy is again flawed. Anybody, even an illegal alien, stopped for a traffic violation, has to show ID. But nobody, without probable cause, has to show ID for walking down the street.

How does the officer know the guy is an illegal alien? Skin color? Speaking Spanish? He cannot stop the guy without probable cause. That is a fundamental safeguard to prevent police harrassment. Only if the officer has some evidence he is an illegal can he ask for ID. A hunch isn't probable cause. An anonymous tip isn't probable cause.

Fburgtx
January 23, 2008, 11:58 PM
No, but destruction of property and trespassing ARE probable cause. (The officer asked the guy to stop digging up my property with his bulldozer and put the dirt back, and when he did so the officer let it go).

I understand your point about the money for enforcement. Unfortunately, the laws need to change so that people will stop coming here in the first place (employer penalties, etc.), rather than a failed policy to try and track people down once they're already here. Anyway, all of this doesn't quite fit the "gun" topic here at THR, so I'll stop.

I will say that I think the Real ID is unwise from both a privacy standpoint and a financial standpoint. I believe the money would be better spent elsewhere than making American citizens jump through even more bureaucratic hoops to live their lives.

foob
January 24, 2008, 12:05 AM
Erm.. so why didn't the officer arrest the guy for trepassing and destruction of property? I'm not sure the officer acted correctly, do you know whether he let the guy go only because he thought the perp was an illegal alien? Or he let him go because he didn't think the crime was serious enough, and you didn't insist on pressing charges.

jakemccoy
January 24, 2008, 12:05 AM
Real ID is yet another way to try to control Americans. It won't make a difference with immigration. It's scary how the powers-that-be are shamelessly willing to lie about it.

Fburgtx
January 24, 2008, 02:02 PM
He didn't arrest the guy because he thought it was simply a "mistake" (read-miscommunication between him and his boss because he couldn't speak English) and thought it would be more trouble for both of us to do all the paperwork and show up in court. Make no mistake, he destroyed property and trespassed......

Dr. Peter Venkman
January 24, 2008, 02:21 PM
I would rather have a single national ID card that can also work as a driver's license (just with a different state stamp) AND a passport instead of having to have multiple cards (driver's license, passport, et cetera) and then on top of that having to throw out my SSN number everywhere I go when filling out an application just to try and prove my identity.

BobbyQuickdraw
January 24, 2008, 02:26 PM
Venkman, love the handle!

Just an interesting side note: Legally you're only required to give you SSN to certain government agencies, and I think banks when opening an account.

Other businesses may only "request" your SSN and you have the right to not give it to them. However, they have the right to not offer you their services then. But if you're worried, it may be worth finding a way around it!

A DL+Passport should prove your identity to them, which is what the SSN is used for.

jakemccoy
January 24, 2008, 02:31 PM
I would rather have a single national ID card that can also work as a driver's license (just with a different state stamp) AND a passport instead of having to have multiple cards (driver's license, passport, et cetera) and then on top of that having to throw out my SSN number everywhere I go when filling out an application just to try and prove my identity.


Keep in mind that with Real ID all of your personal identification information would be stored in one central location. Of course, no hacker would ever crack the central location because the government would absolutely keep all information completely secure (yeah right...lol).

Have you ever received a letter from your credit card company or bank saying that all their records have been compromised? The bank then goes on to change everybody's account number, freeze credit cards, etc. That's happened to me a couple times with major, reputable banks. A central location for personal records would be even less secure.

I’m sure hackers and crooks have already figured out new crime schemes and are chomping at the bit for this Real ID to get underway. I guess a positive is that new business will be created that allow Americans to purchase enhanced identity monitoring services.

Let the states keep the power. I'll keep the slight inconvenience and enjoy the freedom and the higher security, thanks.

Dr. Peter Venkman
January 24, 2008, 02:33 PM
Thanks Quickdraw.

My only concern is that there is always a run around when not wanting to give out the SSN info; the only problem I have with using a passport is now I have to pay more out of my pocket (using a passport as an additional ID) for the ability to identify myself. I am waiting for the day of electronic cards that will store all of your necessary info, or when SSNs are no longer needed for ID purposes for the majority of everything.

Keep in mind that with Real ID all of your personal identification information would be stored in one central location. Of course, no hacker would ever crack the central location because the government would absolutely keep all information completely secure (yeah right...lol).

...

Let the states keep the power. I'll keep the slight inconvenience, as well as more freedom and the higher security, thanks.

I never said that the states cannot have their own storage location, the same way they do now. It would make little sense for every state in the country to have to log on to a centralized system; I can only imagine the slowdown from the data requests.

jakemccoy
January 24, 2008, 02:45 PM
Venkman wrote...I never said that the states cannot have their own storage location, the same way they do now. It would make little sense for every state in the country to have to log on to a centralized system; I can only imagine the slowdown from the data requests.


OK, but I'm saying I don't want Real ID's central location that stores personal identification information of all Americans. If you were familiar with criminal schemes, you wouldn't want it either.

Dr. Peter Venkman
January 24, 2008, 02:52 PM
OK, but I'm saying I don't want Real ID's central location that stores personal identification information of all Americans. If you were familiar with criminal schemes, you wouldn't want it either.

I don't want a central location that stores everything about everyone, either. What I want is a single card I can use for a variety of things without having to give out personal information such as a SSN number (that can be easily stolen and used fraudulently to receive SS). Imagine taking your own state driver's license (same state setup spread out everywhere, not centralized) and that being the only thing you need to verify your identity, nothing else. I suppose the only problem with this is how such a single number can be stolen, but that is also the same problem with credit card numbers as well. BUT you could then use your SSN number (not on the card necessarily) to retrieve it. Either way there needs to be a fail safe, and I don't see one with the current system in respects to having multiple IDs and having to give personal information on top of that.

Zedicus
January 24, 2008, 03:09 PM
Good to Hear it.

If Idaho ever gives into this garbage (not likely but anything can happen), I'm headed fir MT.

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