ITAR dont protect you and kill us.


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frenchbushmaster
January 22, 2008, 04:49 AM
Hello friends,

I was not on THR since 2 months.
Because I was very busy.
Busy by one of your law.
A strange law.
A law for protect you (bull****!).
Protect you of all the European and friend country shooters.
A law for forbid to your American company manufacturing weapon parts, hand guard, grip, scope, dot sight, mount, etc… to sell over seas. During an economical crisis I let you appreciate.

I want just by this message than every American shooter knows that actually, your frontiers are closed and your government stop to sell weapons equipment to every country in the world. Not only your enemy or country ban by the patriot act but ALL the country.

Who could believe than because I cant buy and EOTECH, an ARMS mount, a M.I. handguard, a Mk4 Leupold scope, a magpul grip etc…
America is protected!? WHO is a liar!

My voice here is the voice of all the European shooter (German, British, Italian, Spanish, French, Switzerland, Belgian, etc..)
WE ARE NOT YOUR ENEMY !
We are fed up of this American government attitude against us 

We could not buy you product.
We are considering like integrist terrorists countrys.
Your company could not take advantage of exchange rate Euro/dollars very interesting for us.
You are not better protect because I can’t believe AL KAIDA buy American parts on a gun broker website for equipped her fanatic. It’s simply stupid!

Warning my friends.
Paranoïa is driving some of your leader.
Today the enemy is over seas.
Tomorrow the enemy will be inside.
And your possibility to buy any gun freely will be in danger.
Civilian shooters like you, we have many problem with our authority for try to survive and get our sport live.
If our American friend let us fall.
It’s not only us in Europe who lost.
It’s the world of shooter who is assail.

Lady’s and Gentlemen.
This is the voice of a poor European customer.
The voice of a friend punished for a wrong reason.
We could not benefit of American market and like many other shooters, I’m frightening for the future.

We hope here in Europe the Americans companies will react. We are probably a small parts of there market. But we exist. And we want live.
I hope NRA too will do something for explain the authority shoot on the wrong target for fight against terrorism.

We hope the support of all the americans shooters.
A quieten futur for every body.

Friendly, Mick.

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evan price
January 22, 2008, 05:43 AM
C'est la position du Gouvernement Américain que la matière considérée critique aux efforts militaires américains n'est pas disponible pour la vente à l'extérieur des frontières.
Je suis sûr qu'il y a beaucoup de sociétés dans l'UE qui peut fournir des produits semblables qui ne seraient pas attachés par ces conditions.
HK et Leupold sont l'allemand; Peut-être au lieu de condamner les politiques des Etats-Unis vous passez cet effort enquêtant sur les sources alternantes pour réaliser vos désirs.
Meurtre heureux.

U.S.SFC_RET
January 22, 2008, 06:00 AM
Mon Frère je n'oublierai jamais que cet ait été France qui est venue nous aider dans la guerre d'independance. Je déteste notre politique de politique étrangère. J'ai vu et ne peux pas échanger même avec mon propre dollar m'avec Europe ! Par nos Banques ! J'écris ceci par le traducteur.

My brother I will never forget that it was France who helped win our freedom as a country from the war of independance. I don't like our politics abroad because I cannot even personally engage in trade with europe.

frenchbushmaster
January 22, 2008, 06:35 AM
EVAN :
I agree with you EVAN, we could buy AIMPONT (norway), Schmitt & Bender, Zeiss, TDI, etc..
But for some parts you are alone. Exemple, the ARMS mount, GG&G and La rue.
Nobody produced the same fast attachment mount any where. Only American company.
And for the parts, the price in USA is usualy 50% less expensive than an european price.
Exemple a Schmitt & bender sniper top level scope is 3000 euros (approximatly 4350$ compare with the same lavel LEUPOLD scope for 1200$):scrutiny:
Are you sure LEUPOLD is german ?? "America's optics authority" is the sub title of there name, no ?

U.S.SFC_RET : We know this my friend and we know it's a simple questioàn of politic and a mistake (I hope). But we must report this mistake to every body for change it.

See you, Mick.

Working Man
January 22, 2008, 06:56 AM
C'est la position du Gouvernement Américain que la matière considérée critique aux efforts militaires américains n'est pas disponible pour la vente à l'extérieur des frontières.
Je suis sûr qu'il y a beaucoup de sociétés dans l'UE qui peut fournir des produits semblables qui ne seraient pas attachés par ces conditions.
HK et Leupold sont l'allemand; Peut-être au lieu de condamner les politiques des Etats-Unis vous passez cet effort enquêtant sur les sources alternantes pour réaliser vos désirs.
Meurtre heureux.

Rough translation.....


It is the position of the American Government which the matter considered critical with the American military efforts is not available for the sale outside the borders. I am sure that there are many companies in the EU which can provide similar products which would not be attached by these conditions. HK and Leupold are German; Perhaps instead of condemning the policies of the United States you pass this effort inquiring into the alternating sources to carry out your desires. Happy murder.


Brough to you by..... http://babelfish.altavista.com/

frenchbushmaster
January 22, 2008, 09:12 AM
Thank's working man,

The translator is sometime not clear, It's excellent with the original version.;)

It's clear the actual effort in war is important.
But I cant believe it's for some reasons.

I give you two exemples for explain my point of view my friends.

I could not buy an AR15 LMT SOPMOD MIL-SPEC STOCK. O.K. It's military used and capacity of production are request for the war effort. I agree.
But 2 point :
A) Explain me why you civilian americans shooter, you could buy it ?
B) Why I could not buy the Commercial version No MIL-SPEC not used buy military ?

I could buy any LEUPOLD scope if it's a scope for hunting or sport (Impossible to build a M24 or M40 replica with Mk4 scope:banghead:).
But In this scope range.
Explain me why the MIL-DOT Reticle is forbiden to exportation for the hunting and sport scope not used by military sniper !????
Why a company like "OPTIC PLANET" is so frighten by the risk of penalty, it say "we stop sell over seas any think". Too dangerous:(

I think this law had been decided for good reason (I hope).
But not as clearly define and application is so complex and not clear than Dealer, manufacturer and customer are mislaid in a labyrinth.

A law not clear is never good for nobody.

Since the ITAR is apply one different european forum user of american rifle are pull s.o.'s legs by AK or SIG or H&K shooter. We are the looser with american rifles :fire::cuss::banghead::(
It's a bit unpleasant but usualy it's friendly joke. AK rifle shooter never forget to beat AR shooter !! AH AH AH !!:D

See you, Mick.

1911Tuner
January 22, 2008, 09:35 AM
It's entirely possible that the manufacturers of said goods aren't licensed to export, and...because the market potential for overseas parts orders is small...not worth the expense and the hassle. They're not in the business of fair and equitable distribution of their products. They're in it to make a living.

We sympathize with your plight, but we're not responsible for the situation, and we're under no moral obligation to rectify it...so please don't try to make this our fault. We've had quite enough of that in recent history, and we have problems of our own in the firearms trade.

TherealMordis
January 22, 2008, 09:36 AM
FrenchBushmaster, this may seem ignorant, but I didnt think Europe had that many active shooters. I thought, purchasing guns in that part of the world was a impossability for the common man. It sounds like i have been sorely misinformed.

El Tejon
January 22, 2008, 09:40 AM
Leupold=>Beaverton, Oregon, USA.

Beaucoup d'Americains pesent que Leupold est Allemand, juste comme ils pesent que de pistolas de Kahr sont Allemand.

I apologize for my French. It has been too long.

1911 guy
January 22, 2008, 10:19 AM
Ditto what Tuner said. We're trying to keep the free flow of firearms and equipment going on our own side of the pond.

Also on the export license not being a good investment for a lot of companies. Due to the laws passed in your country and most other european nations, the market is too small to justify the cost.

And also the point about making it our individual faults. Can I, by the same rational, make it your fault that the vast majority of french people I met in both Paris and Marsailles were rude, arrogant and socially backward? Or that your government actively supplied our current enemy with technology and equpment? I'll try to take you on your own merits and expect the same of you.

The larger point is this: If there was much of a market, why doesn't a french company step up and make a similar or licensed copy? You've got the industry, I've been to France and know it's by no means lacking in industry.

JohnBT
January 22, 2008, 10:39 AM
And if a U.S. company messes up on an export there is a big penalty. This one was $11,000 for 12 scopes. John

www.bis.doc.gov/news/2002/sturm_ruger.htm

"Assistant Secretary of Commerce for Export Enforcement Michael J. Garcia today announced that Sturm, Ruger and Company, Inc., of Southport, Conn., has agreed to pay a civil penalty of $11,000 to settle an allegation that it exported rifle scopes to Oman without the required license. A license is required to export the rifle scopes to most destinations in order to ensure that the scopes will not be used to violate human rights.

The Commerce Department's Bureau of Industry and Security (BIS) had alleged that Sturm, Ruger had sent a shipment of 12 rifle scopes from the United States to Oman without obtaining the required export license from BIS. The $11,000 penalty is the maximum authorized for that charge.

BIS administers and enforces export and reexport controls for reasons of national security, foreign policy, nonproliferation, antiterrorism, and short supply. Criminal penalties and administrative sanctions can be imposed for violations of the Export Administration Regulations.

Assistant Secretary Garcia commended Special Agent William Higgins of the Office of Export Enforcement's Boston field office for his investigation of this case."

Owen
January 22, 2008, 11:17 AM
The export requirements for "War Materials" are stringent.

Already the US gets hammered for selling armaments overseas. if the floodgates were opened so that any company could sell anything they wanted overseas, the UN would have a fit, what with all those well armed freedom fighters...

Tommygunn
January 22, 2008, 11:31 AM
Paranoïa is driving some of your leader.
Today the enemy is over seas.
Tomorrow the enemy will be inside.

With respects, the enemy has already been here, done that. Remember 9/11? The trade towers being hit ... burning ... people jumping to their deaths rather than being burned alive? .... the towers collapsing .... The Pentagon being hit ....
Now, THAT'S enough to make anyone "paranoid.":scrutiny::scrutiny::scrutiny:
The F.B.I. believes there are Al-Qaeda cells still intact inside America.
Me? I don't know.
But I do think this war is a very serious war, and the jihadis pose a serious threat to our freedoms (yours too, by the way).

I'm not trying to "defend" our treatment of European Shooters, or how we deal with exports of shooting equipment. We have enough problems with our own government inside our borders trying to take what we have, or preventing us from getting new stuff. Yeah, it's crazy.
Do you feel insulted by the way the U.S. Government treats you???
Hey, Frenchbushmaster, I feel insulted by the way my own government treats me!!!!! Buddy, I feel your pain.

DrewH
January 22, 2008, 03:15 PM
Well, I think the expansion of rules and regs on on firearms exports, and especially firearms acessories, that have been put in place since September 11 are pretty terrible, so I feel your pain. Sadly, its unlikely to change anytime soon. Executive agencies have very broad discretion over defining "munitons" for exports (and imports for that matter) and there is very little constituency for change-most of our energy goes to fighting domestic restrictions.

mekender
January 22, 2008, 05:26 PM
there are similar laws preventing the export of specific high tech items too... sony was hit with a huge fine for selling PS/2s to the middle east a few years ago... why? because with some basic computer programming skills and a decent video camera, the graphics processor could be used for terrain mapping and guidance of missiles...

im quite sure that a lot of goods would become more available in europe if certain european countries would stop selling weapons, nuclear technologies and other sensitive items to nations that support terrorism... after all it was the french that built the iraqi nuclear reactor back in the 1980s... and it was also france, germany and russia that were benefiting hugely from the Oil for Food scam that was stealing millions of dollars from poor iraqi people...

france thankfully has taken some good steps in electing sarkozy...

feedthehogs
January 22, 2008, 05:50 PM
Could be we're a tad bit tired of exporting arms and stuff to other countries and some where down the road when we part company, they get used against us.

Na that can't be it. That would take common sense.

akodo
January 22, 2008, 05:52 PM
look, I can understand that it totally sucks.

However it isn't our leaders so much as a small minority of busy-bodies who henpeck them into doing things. We have "the million mom march" which is really about 50 menopausal women and 5 quasi-celebrities screaming at them all the time. Many groups talk about easy american guns going to terrorists. Yes, such terrorists can just come and visit and buy and smuggle it across, or buy on gunbroker, whatever. However, if our companies sent it to them, the people mad at the guns and armtrade scream even louder.

And it cuts both ways. Clinton got Russia to agree not to send any firearms to the USA. Now, a mass murderer who gets ahold of a yugoslavian SKS isnt any more or less dangerous than one with a Russian one, it's all about appeasing special interest groups and chipping away at rights, regardless of which direciton it is going.

Also, normally if your country requests that things be changed, they will. I.E. if we could get George W Bush to ask about selling us Bakial Makarovs again, I am sure the Russians would. However, he won't ask. I am sure if your President asked W about being able to import Leupold scopes, changes would be made, but your president won't do that either

atek3
January 22, 2008, 06:35 PM
if I was european, I'd look at it as an opportunity... strike up a deal with larue, GG&G, and Magpul to become the sole licensed producer in the EU. Surely the EU as a whole is a big enough market to be profitable.

Working Man
January 22, 2008, 11:20 PM
Frenchbushmaster, what is the proper translation of "Meurtre heureux"?

Zak Smith
January 23, 2008, 12:35 AM
And another reason US shooters should hate the ITAR is because it imposes a $1750 per year fee on all FFLs licensed to do manufacturing.

Cosmoline
January 23, 2008, 12:41 AM
Feedthehogs, we're busy buying millions of dollars worth of equipment VASTLY MORE LETHAL than anything our French friend wants and giving it to some of the nastiest, meanest folks in the middle east and central asia.

Our export laws are idiotic, just admit it. And our DOD and State Departments are headed by some of the most short-sighted, odious reptiles ever to crawl across the surface of the Earth. Sadly they won't be the ones to die when our "allies" decide the winds have changed and start attacking us.

Why, in the midst of this madness, we should quibble about selling high end sporting firearms and parts to European shooters is beyond the grasp of any sane man.

evan price
January 23, 2008, 02:29 AM
If my 8 years of french 20 years ago was correct it means "Keep shooting".

Obviously your English is better than my Francais.

Re: Leupold: I was thinking of Kaps but for some reason fixated upon Leupold.

What is unfortunate in this situation is that the definition of "mil-spec" is broad enough that no manufacturer wants to risk a massive fine and loss of business to want to get into an argument over wether or not "mil-styled" is actually different than "mil-spec".

I seriously doubt that export of a GG&G buis or quick-mount will in any way negatively affect the war effort. But the US Government is not in the business of making sense sometimes.

iiibdsiil
January 23, 2008, 02:49 AM
Can't you get an American to just purchase it and ship it to you? I'm confused here...

takhtakaal
January 23, 2008, 02:58 AM
All of this makes me wonder when it will be that we can't buy them here, either.

Stock up, fellas.

joffe
January 23, 2008, 05:14 AM
Can't you get an American to just purchase it and ship it to you? I'm confused here...
No, it's a law against exporting.

I know we can get LaRue stuff here, we have one importer for them, I don't know about the rest, though. The market is nothing like in the U.S. either, so unless someone on this side of the pond wants to import it and sell it on their own accord I doubt any U.S. manufacturers would be interested in the hassle of selling over here. The government pretty much kills the market and the gun community with their sporting use, activity and club membership requirements.

frenchbushmaster
January 23, 2008, 06:21 AM
My Friends,

One very important point before all.
I never want insult any American friend.
I respect every body.
You my friends, and the American government.
And I respect the law.

I agree when you say the enemy of freedom exists and are every where.
I hope you know that terrorism exist for French peoples since many many years with the Palestinian attempt in Jew district of Paris or the attempts in the subway.
Do not think you are alone to suffer of this plague. We are in "VIGIE PIRATE" level of control for terrorism with military patrol in airport, subway, commercial center since 11/2001.
We live with the terrorism. Every day something remember us we could be victim of it.
We are in the same team.

I agree that it's not something very important and nobody will die because we (European shooter) could not buy American guns parts product in Europe. But It’s strange for me.
Because the reason give to us are not good.
It’s exactly like if tomorrow one of your politicians used the patriot act for explain you that like enemy are probably inside, it’s dangerous to let the weapons free access for civilian. Think to this my friends. Because it’s exactly the base of the reason why we have no possibility to import your parts.
I don’t do politic O.K., It’s just the explanation we received more or less clearly.
I just give you the information for you know what happen one the civilian shooter market with the American product.
For me it’s a beat frightening.

I will explain different point with my actual experience.
I try to live with the ITAR and import parts since 2 months know.
So I could say I try a lot of possible ways for import officially parts.

The 1750$ exportation license is absolutely not the problem.
Clearly, me and some friends with gun shop in France, Belgium or Switzerland are ready and proposed to some American dealer friends to pay the license for the exportation.
The problem is not a question of money.

When we say we pay, the US Govt. Authority ask us to send proof we are military or police service with official French State authorization for an official order. For be more clear their want simply an order from a ministry.
Result : If you are a civilian, it impossible to buy any parts.
Simple shooters like professional gunsmith.
Actually some specialist of AR15 (LIKE ESP) stop sell part for try to assure the order of complet weapons in stock.

Last joke for one of my friend successfully obtain papers for importation from European authority.
It’s a professional European dealer.
He obtains all the data and paper required.
When he send it to USA, he received this answer :
“Sorry, official French authority document are not in English, we could not work with document not in english. Please translat it by an official service of the French government for we accept this documents “
AH AH AH !! Realy funny !

I’m not angry when I explain you all these.
It’s like a joke for us now here to speak of ITAR. A bad joke.
We begin to live without Americans suppliers. And it’s not easy (Be sure it’s a compliment for your company).
It’s just for explain you, when we received the first message of US Dealer and company we don’t understand and after we try to found a solution.
Every efforts for declare us and respect the rules are refused.
We are not bad guys, we just want freely buy parts we buy since many years like some month ago. In the respect of the war effort, I promise you.

I actually try to be considering by the US authority like the European representative of an American dealer (Leupold, GG&G, M.I., MAGPUL, etc…)
It’s my last hope.

A little history again for fun.
Many shooters here are cop’s, soldier, etc..
Many of them buy there own equipment themselves. The French army is an army administer like a simple office service. You could use only the official equipment (and it’s not realy fun). But many of our guys are fighting with you in Afghanistan and appreciate EOTECH, ACOG, etc…
Know their could not buy any of these before to go :(
I see I guy buy a used EOTECH 551 to a friend at the shooting range because he could not order an ACOG. And this soldier is actually in Afghanistan.

For conclude I want just say you were surprised by this law in Europe.
We respect this law.
But we try to understand why. It’s the reason of my message. Just want know if American shooter know this law and the reason of it.
We have received it like a bad think because nobody explain us and the explanation of the dealer are not clear.
An important point about this law is the duration.
Is it for ever, or like your problem with the high cap magasin limited to 10 shoots and know liberate like in the past (if I don’t have wrong datas).
If we know it’s a particular moment for support the war effort, we say O.K. We could understand this.:)

We just need to know why. And why so severely.
We love American product. It’s a pleasure to used you product.
Your companies are the best. It’s normal we want buy the best ;)

The translation in english for "meutre heureux" is "happy murder". I dont understand for to be honest:D

No, an American friend could not send us parts, that true.
But, not completly.
You could try to received some little parts like pin, spring and other small parts for maintenance. I have a friend who do this for me and my friends. We have a limit of course. The price of the order must not be over 100$. It's the rule of the ITAR.
So we order many little parts for our AR and other 1911 run without problem inthe futur. One order every month for be discreet. We respect the law but like nothing is clear.

Thanks for your explanations and the discussion.
Your point of view is important for us here.
It's very interesting.:)

See you, Mick.

Zak Smith
January 23, 2008, 12:07 PM
The 1750$ exportation license is absolutely not the problem.
This is required even if you don't ever want to export anything.

koginam
January 23, 2008, 02:02 PM
Zak Smith
Maybe I missed something when I read ITAR but I only saw that a manufacture was required to register if they engage in the business of either manufacturing or exporting defense articles or furnishing defense services.
On the ATF web site http://www.atf.gov/firearms/nfa/nfa_handbook/chapter11.pdf covers the ATF rules concerning ITAR, the chapter name by which they start this page should say it all CHAPTER 11. EXPORTATION OF NFA FIREARMS.

Also in CHAPTER I--DEPARTMENT OF STATE
SUBCHAPTER M--INTERNATIONAL TRAFFIC IN ARMS REGULATIONS
PART 120--PURPOSE AND DEFINITIONS
http://www.pmddtc.state.gov/consolidated_itar.htm

§*120.3***Policy on designating and determining defense articles and services.
An article or service may be designated or determined in the future to be a defense article (see §120.6) or defense service (see §120.9) if it:
(a) Is specifically designed, developed, configured, adapted, or modified for a military application, and
(i) Does not have predominant civil applications, and
(ii) Does not have performance equivalent (defined by form, fit and function) to those of an article or service used for civil applications; or (b) Is specifically designed, developed, configured, adapted, or modified for a military application, and has significant military or intelligence applicability such that control under this subchapter is necessary.
The intended use of the article or service after its export ( i.e. , for a military or civilian purpose) is not relevant in determining whether the article or service is subject to the controls of this subchapter. Any item covered by the U.S. Munitions List must be within the categories of the U.S. Munitions List. The scope of the U.S. Munitions List shall be changed only by amendments made pursuant to section 38 of the Arms Export Control Act (22 U.S.C. 2778).
(emphases mine)
most type 7 manufactures meet the high lighted section and they would not be affected by the rule. For the most part if you don't import or export I believe you could get a waiver.

To my friend frenchbushmaster this law sucks very much and I think it will be amended to some extent but if the Democrats gain the presidency and keep control of Congress it may get worse, I wish you luck, I will do my part by voting.

frenchbushmaster
January 23, 2008, 02:10 PM
Thanks KOGINAM.

The text you found is exactly the reason why we could not buy.
The text is clear.:uhoh:
We are civilians and we dont need this military equipment :cuss::banghead:

I hope like you this law will be amended.
See you, Mick.:)

TheLaxPlayer
January 23, 2008, 05:58 PM
This is very odd indeed. I work at a company which makes certain equipment for the government and as far as our stuff goes with ITAR, anything that is commercially available isn't controlled. Only products made exclusively for the government are controlled by ITAR.

doc2rn
January 23, 2008, 07:36 PM
A lot of this has to do with the Patent on a product. We often overlook this simple thing, but if it is only Patented here in the US and not the EU we can not legally ship abroad. What he needs to do is puchase through an FFL who is willing to ship to Frenchb's favorite FFL dealer.

suemarkp
January 23, 2008, 11:13 PM
I think the other part of the "or" statement above is the problem: "(b) Is specifically designed, developed, configured, adapted, or modified for a military application, and has significant military or intelligence applicability such that control under this subchapter is necessary."

Take a S&W Revolver, coat it for Navy Seal operations, and now you have something that applies. A component of something that applies is covered too (the original commercial revolver or any of its parts). How is a company supposed to know when some product has been modified for military applications? The munitions list is huge.

The company I work for is very paranoid about export laws and has had huge fines levied multiple times against it (and so have most defense contractors). There was even a ruckus about the commercial 737's sold to China because the gyro's in them could easily be modified to guide a crusie missile.

If you do try and get an export license, certain countries are easier than others. Unfortunately, France seems to have a lot of industrial spies, so our Security people don't like them. But even teaming with friendlies (NATO partners who are subcontractors on defense contracts) is risky because of the possibility of passing something that wasn't listed on the export license (or is a grey area of covered or not). We have whole staffs of people whose job it is to transfer things to foreign nationals, verify export authority, and save us from fines in the millions of dollars.

frenchbushmaster
January 24, 2008, 05:53 AM
I agree with your surprise.
I'm sure this law is too general and had been signed too fast.
You have a precise list of Country ban. It's clear than apply a complet embargo is normal.
But Allied country ???

Suemarkp :
I must say you I agree spy is a bad custom between occidental company (and other).
It's unpleasant, I understand every body try to protect their intersets.

But I must confess than for the small arms equipment our company had desapeard since a long time.
I dont know if you know that the actual FAMAS is not produced in France.
We live with the stock.
And we buy our barrel in Italy for maintenance of the exhausted rifles reparation.:banghead:

My dont produces any scope for rifle. No more scope mount or any other accesory like lamp, laser, rail mount, etc...

We are not dangerous we depend completly of external provider. It's creasy when I remember our history in armament :(

Be sure it's not a problem of copy of ARMS mount for exemple or Leupold MIL-DOT scope or EOTECH holographic sight. We are not one these market and nobody are interested :uhoh: except customers of course:D


See you, Mick.:)

silverlance
January 24, 2008, 11:56 AM
Frenchbushy,

I sympathize. But we are having problems also. Here in California, which is a state of the United States, we cannot buy:

1. any semi-automatic rifle with a detachable magazine and a pistol grip
2. any magazines with capacity over 10
3. any handgun not on a very special list. the list is very small and specific. for example, the SIG P232 Stainless Steel is on the list. The SIG P232 Blue is not on the list.
4. to get on that very special list, the manufacturer has to pay:
- $3500 to test the gun
- $1000 for ammunition
- $1500 to pay the testing official
- and don't forget the $1750 tax for manufacturing, and the many other fees that come with designing, testing, building, and revising a gun.

and the gun STILL may not be approved!!

Our company is one of those manufacturers. We make FAL rifles and 1911 handguns. We are having hard times, because many people in our government want us to shut down our business. They can do this by banning our products, or by making them so expensive that no one can afford them.

Do you know how much it costs to make an AK rifle?
Do you know how a company has to sell it for to make it profitable here in the US?

I have a suggestion. I say this only because I believe that the more gun owners there are in the world (law obeying gun owners) then the better the gun culture will be. How about you hire some swiss engineers, german metalworkers, and swedish gunsmiths - and create your own company?

frenchbushmaster
January 24, 2008, 02:14 PM
WOW !!

It's realy incredible Silverlance.:what:
Realy sad to read something so ..... I dont find the word !!
It's a realy deceitful way to kill the gun market. GGGRRRRR :fire:

I agree with you.
And many people think that if the ITAR is a law definitly apply for long long time, some persons (artisan not company) could beguin to produced "copy" of american system like the asian company do since a long time for airsoft equipment.

Like the ITAR is not only for the Weapons and parts for upgrade the weapons but for all the equipment with an NSN number many gear are forbidden too.
We try to found many other company like J-TECH in Asia.
It's the official provider of many military group or police service in asia.
So we will buy our equipment in asia know.
The quality is realy good and the price very low.

Chineses master of the world of tomorrow :D
I have a Norinco rifle and many people have good point of view about new chinese weapon product. They had a very big and beautiful show-room during the MILIPOL SHOW. Show for professional (Police / Military).
A picture for illustrate :
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s119/frenchbushmaster/MILIPOL%202007/Chinois1.jpg

I sympathize with every peoples in any countrys where laws are not just and do not warranty the freedom of the civilian.
Republic and democracy had been create for liberate peoples, not limit they freedom.

Friendly.
See you, Mick.

esq_stu
January 24, 2008, 02:48 PM
All of this makes me wonder when it will be that we can't buy them here, either.
The ITAR rules cover much more than small arms. They include classified data, satellites, ICBM/rocket components. The State Dept decides what is considered a "defense article" subject to restrictions.

We usually hear from NRA, etc. about proposed rules affecting our rights. But as this is an export rule, it most likely slipped under the radar. I say this because the definition of "defense articles" should not include the items discussed here:

22 CFR Sec. 123
An article or service may be designated or determined in the future to be a defense article (see § 120.6) or defense service (see § 120.9) if it:

(a) Is specifically designed, developed, configured, adapted, or modified for a military application, and

(i) Does not have predominant civil applications, and

(ii) Does not have performance equivalent (defined by form, fit and function) to those of an article or service used for civil applications; or

(b) Is specifically designed, developed, configured, adapted, or modified for a military application, and has significant military or intelligence applicability such that control under this subchapter is necessary.

If it was issued like other Federal rules, the State Dept would probably have published the restrictions on small arms parts, scopes, etc. along with the ICBMs and secret data and nobody from the shooting public commented. It would not be the first time the feds did something dumb after nobody noticed their plans. I seriously doubt the State Dept was thinking about shooters in Europe being inconvenienced when they wrote the rules, so I don't think Europeans should be offended.

If it's important enough to people, State should be petitioned for an amendment to the rules.

Here's a partial list of what's restricted:


CATEGORY I - FIREARMS
*(a) Nonautomatic, semi-automatic and fully automatic firearms to
caliber .50 inclusive, and all components and parts for such
firearms. (See Sec. 121.9 and Sec.23.16-123.19.)
(b) Riflescopes manufactured to military specifications, and
specifically designed or modified components therefor; firearm
silencers and suppressors, including flash suppressors.
*(c) Insurgency-counterinsurgency type firearms or other weapons
having a special military application (e.g. close assault weapons
systems) regardless of caliber and all components and parts
therefor.
(d) Technical data (as defined in Sec. 120.21) and defense
services (as defined in Sec. 120.8) directly related to the defense
articles enumerated in paragraphs (a) through (c) of this category.
(See Sec. 125.4 for exemptions.) Technical data directly related to
the manufacture or production of any defense articles enumerated
elsewhere in this category that are designated as Significant
Military Equipment (SME) shall itself be designated SME.

Obviously, State got no objections from the European governments. Otherwise the restrictions would not be nearly so broad.

frenchbushmaster
January 24, 2008, 04:05 PM
Absolutly esq_stu.
We understand know after the first week of disappointment.
We are like you say a sort of "collateral damage" in a large global law.:(

The petition is a good idea. We do it in France before the vote for president. And they answer us. First time a futur president take in account the shooter voice. This is a great victory for us.
I had this idea to launch the same mouvment against ITAR, but for be efficient I must wrote a test simple, polite for explain the problem and ask an amendment for friends shooter of allied country.
It's possible.;)
But the problem for me is to contact and mobilize european shooter for send this letter to the good person in USA.
And here is my best problem. Who contact? Where could we send our messages?

If some of you have an idea, thanks a lot to give it to me:).

See you, Mick.

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